John Simkin and the Administration of this Forum

[Myra Bronstein]

...

"Sometimes being right isn't always the right thing to be."

...

Another great quote.

[Guest]

How do you reckon Bill Shankley would have dealt with this situation (answer that and that's most likely all you need - John)

'If (s)he had gunpowder for brains (s)he couldn't blow her cap off.'??

http://www.shankly.com/quotes.htm

[Len Colby]

John we’ve had our differences over the last couple of years and sometimes I think you get a little thin skinned but if everyone agreed this would be a very boring forum and I imagine most other people and I would have had a hard time balancing our role as opinionated advocates our POV’s and neutral forum administrator as fairly as you do if we were in your shoes.

Now that I’ve finished buttering you up I’ll let you get back to running “Romper Room” which is what some members seem intent on transforming this forum into.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Len Colby

[Paul Rigby]

http://www.shankly.com/quotes.htm

Great man, some great quotes – but seemingly compiled by a Kopite Warren Commissioner, as it omits the most poignant one of all, on his retirement years:

”I might add that I count Everton among the clubs who have welcomed me over the last few seasons. I have been received more warmly by Everton than I have by Liverpool. It is scandalous and outrageous that I should have to write these things about the club I helped build into what it is today.”

James Corbett. Everton: The School of Science (London: Macmillan, 2003), p.200, citing Shanks’ 1976 autobiography, Shankly by Shankly (London: Mayflower, 1976), p.150.

“If you know you’re history…”

PS John & Andy - you've established a great forum, don't chuck it all away from exasperation, tiredness etc. It's a very rare thing, indeed, in this country - a place of genuinely free speech.

Paul

[Terry Mauro]

I mistrust you in that I think you too often tend to take the low road in terms of interpersonal issues, and I think that as a forum administrator you often lack discretion. Here is precisely when my mistrust started:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry82388

Post #11, wherein you responded to allegations that you were a CIA agent (which I believe are false) as follows:

John>"I accept your point about researchers who disagree with your theories spreading rumours about you being CIA. I therefore would not be surprised if people I have clashed with me in the past like Tim Gratz, Tim Carroll, Ashton Gray, Wim Danbaar, Tom Purvis, etc. put it around that I was CIA. As a result of their past history, they would probably not be believed...."

My response came in post #33 in the same thread:

Myra>"The point being that I'll decide for myself what I think of people. It's insulting and suspicious to be told what to think. If John is trying to boost his own credibility by naming names, then he failed with me 'cause I don't appreciate those tactics. They're heavy handed, and frankly kinda catty, in addition to being unprofessional.

ether it's CIA strategy (which I don't believe) or just bad judgement, it's a negative.

Now, since I've "clashed" with John will I see my name in the next edition of "rogue's gallery"?"

And that's exactly what happened. I ended up in the rogue's gallery because I openly objected to your tactic John (new to me at that point 'cause I was a new member) of attacking people openly by name on your public forum in a heavy-handed attempt to influence readers' opinions.

Since then I've openly objected to your public forum insults of Americans. And most recently I objected to your nasty public digs about Jack's age:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0

John>"However, recently, Jack White has started several threads that have been completely untrue. It has been argued that he is an old man who gets confused and because of his “great work in the past” he should be allowed to post his nonsense. While I agree we should be more generous in our attitudes towards our senior citizens, there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough."

"Old man...confused...senior citizen." My god, how condescending and callous.

THAT is why I mistrust you John. Because I think you fight dirty.

Instead of sticking with issues and behavior, you make personal attacks.

I would be interested to know if anyone else shares Myra's view. If a significant number do, I will of course resign as an administrator of this forum.

************************************************************************

"...I will of course resign as an administrator of this forum."

Now, let's not get too hasty here, John.

I'm sorry to find things had degenerated to this level, and have managed to stay out of the fray simply due to employment schedules, as of late.

I want you to know that I do support your efforts at maintaining forum sanity, and realize the pressures you're under at present. Therefore, if you chose to shut it down, I would totally understand and be in agreement with your decision.

However, your forum and its format are the culmination of what I had been begging the research sites [Prouty's, Conway's, and DellaRosa's] to join forces and become from the time I first went on-line in 1997, and was able to witness the acrimony between these particular forums. I didn't quite understand the dynamics at the time, and couldn't fathom why they had to be at odds with each other over something they all had a common goal in fighting for. I was also under the idealistic impression that if they could somehow agree to combine their large databases and work together, the research community would eventually become a force to be reckoned with.

You have managed to single-handedly do just that using your own intensive reading and research skills on the subject. Created an impressive centralized database with what you've been able to glean from the different sites, including those of the opposition, or the McAdams and Rahn genre of thought, not to mention the various newgroups on the subject. By doing this, you have been able to encourage debate between opposing views, leaving them open to scrutiny and discussion. Are you sure you really want to chuck it all?

[Harry J.Dean]

I mistrust you in that I think you too often tend to take the low road in terms of interpersonal issues, and I think that as a forum administrator you often lack discretion. Here is precisely when my mistrust started:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry82388

Post #11, wherein you responded to allegations that you were a CIA agent (which I believe are false) as follows:

John>"I accept your point about researchers who disagree with your theories spreading rumours about you being CIA. I therefore would not be surprised if people I have clashed with me in the past like Tim Gratz, Tim Carroll, Ashton Gray, Wim Danbaar, Tom Purvis, etc. put it around that I was CIA. As a result of their past history, they would probably not be believed...."

My response came in post #33 in the same thread:

Myra>"The point being that I'll decide for myself what I think of people. It's insulting and suspicious to be told what to think. If John is trying to boost his own credibility by naming names, then he failed with me 'cause I don't appreciate those tactics. They're heavy handed, and frankly kinda catty, in addition to being unprofessional.

ether it's CIA strategy (which I don't believe) or just bad judgement, it's a negative.

Now, since I've "clashed" with John will I see my name in the next edition of "rogue's gallery"?"

And that's exactly what happened. I ended up in the rogue's gallery because I openly objected to your tactic John (new to me at that point 'cause I was a new member) of attacking people openly by name on your public forum in a heavy-handed attempt to influence readers' opinions.

Since then I've openly objected to your public forum insults of Americans. And most recently I objected to your nasty public digs about Jack's age:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0

John>"However, recently, Jack White has started several threads that have been completely untrue. It has been argued that he is an old man who gets confused and because of his “great work in the past” he should be allowed to post his nonsense. While I agree we should be more generous in our attitudes towards our senior citizens, there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough."

"Old man...confused...senior citizen." My god, how condescending and callous.

THAT is why I mistrust you John. Because I think you fight dirty.

Instead of sticking with issues and behavior, you make personal attacks.

I would be interested to know if anyone else shares Myra's view. If a significant number do, I will of course resign as an administrator of this forum.

************************************************************************

"...I will of course resign as an administrator of this forum."

Now, let's not get too hasty here, John.

I'm sorry to find things had degenerated to this level, and have managed to stay out of the fray simply due to employment schedules, as of late.

I want you to know that I do support your efforts at maintaining forum sanity, and realize the pressures you're under at present. Therefore, if you chose to shut it down, I would totally understand and be in agreement with your decision.

However, your forum and its format are the culmination of what I had been begging the research sites [Prouty's, Conway's, and DellaRosa's] to join forces and become from the time I first went on-line in 1997, and was able to witness the acrimony between these particular forums. I didn't quite understand the dynamics at the time, and couldn't fathom why they had to be at odds with each other over something they all had a common goal in fighting for. I was also under the idealistic impression that if they could somehow agree to combine their large databases and work together, the research community would eventually become a force to be reckoned with.

You have managed to single-handedly do just that using your own intensive reading and research skills on the subject. Created an impressive centralized database with what you've been able to glean from the different sites, including those of the opposition, or the McAdams and Rahn genre of thought, not to mention the various newgroups on the subject. By doing this, you have been able to encourage debate between opposing views, leaving them open to scrutiny and discussion. Are you sure you really want to chuck it all?

Hi, John

Weary not in your well doing.

Harry

[Terry Mauro]

No, Terry,

I sure don't think he wants to chuck it. I'm sure he was saddened by all of this.

I think he is a real "people" person. An historian--certainly, but a very social, engaging one.

This is not just a place for debate. This is for human interaction. In order to promote that humanity, he requires that we have a face. (That is the purpose of the photos.) This is not a board where we just share research. Were it merely a place for information trading, we could've gotten by with just our names.

His method of posting is friendly. If you didn't know better, you'd think you were actually sitting across the table from him, listening , and being encouraged to give your opinion.

He searches and posts topics and resources FOR US. He always has something new to share. He finds things he thinks we'd like. Look at the recent email he sent concerning the unsolved crimes. "Come talk with me about this. I want your opinion."

He is even interested in what type of music we like.

He has given us the opportunity to speak with and question famous people. Amazing!

He has given us friends. I have met some people here, from all over the world, that I dearly love, thanks to him.. I spend alot of time here, and some of it is for learning, but some of it is for the joy I have being around where many of my friends are..

All he has ever asked of us is that we respect one another, and not speak things that we KNOW to be untrue. That is a small price to pay for membership.

Very small.

This board is more a part of him than a part of us....

I think it is so sad that it took something of this magnitude for us to tell him "Thanks." We should have been doing that all along. Had we done so before, this thread would have never been needed.

Thank you, Mr. Simkin.

Kathy Beckett

***************************************************************

Don't get me wrong, Kath. I've thanked John many times before, and continue to observe my dream of an incredible database and repository of photographic and documented evidence unfold here, at his site. It's been the first place I've checked into, before and after BlackOps.

He's also been quite tolerant of my occasional caustic remarks and opinions, not to mention my cussing out, of certain obnoxious and blatantly asinine individuals, over the years. But, I've learned a lot in the way of discourse, having observed some of my mentors, like Dixie Dea, Pamela McElwaithe Brown, and Barb Junkarrinen, in action. Therefore, I will continue to strive and temper my "tone" with civility, and hope this has not gone unnoticed by John in recent months.

Thank you, John and the members of this forum, for giving me the opportunity to express my thoughts on the subject, here today.

Ter

[John Simkin]

Andy Walker and I set this forum up in December 2003. The original idea was that it would provide a home for educators and students to debate issues. The use of the term home is significant. It was a place where you invited people to have friendly discussions. We expected people to behave as if they were invited guests. Of course, we were aware that discussions would always result in disagreements. However, we thought that people would be able to behave in the same way that they do in university seminars. That is why we insisted in people’s right of freedom of speech. After all, one of the reasons we had been booted off another education forum for expressing opinions that were different from the administrator. We hoped to show students that people could hold very different opinions but could discuss these issues in an academic way. In fact, we planned to use the forum to illustrate how the past is interpreted in different ways (this is part of the UK’s national curriculum for history).

For the first few months we had no problem at all with running the forum in the way we envisaged. Then we had people applying to join the forum who were not teachers or young students. They claimed that they were life-long students who were interested in education and history. They were admitted and behaved in the appropriate manner of a mature student at university. The system continued to work well and the only problem we had during this period was with an extreme right-wing pro-Jewish group based in America (they objected to what they considered to be pro-Arab comments posted on the forum). Their membership was deleted but they continued to cause us problems and made several attempts to bring the forum down. We also had trouble with a Holocaust denier who posted photographs of Andy and myself on his own forum and encouraged supporters to cause as trouble.

However, over time, we did attract other strange individuals who were quick to abuse other members. It seems they had more experience of the Jerry Springer show that a university seminar room. In an attempt to bring an end to this we began to insist that members posted a photograph as an avatar and added a link to their biography in their signature. It was hoped that this would both humanize and validate people’s postings. This seemed to work for a while but it seemed that certain members were determined to abuse other members. When Andy, I and the moderators attempt to control these people, we are then abused. We try putting them on moderation but as soon as they are off, they return to this unacceptable behaviour.

These people tend to work in pairs. When they are told off about their comments, they always say, well the other one started it. As we have told you so many times before retaliation is no defence. If someone abuses you, contact a moderator and they will deal with it.

Although moderators attempt to deal with all these problems, it is an impossible task. As a result, visitors to our forum are provided with a constant stream of abusive arguments.

I have tried for sometime to persuade leading historians, researchers and journalists to join this forum. As you know, I have persuaded a significant number to participate. However, an increasing number have rejected the offer because of the behaviour of some members of the forum. This situation cannot be allowed to continue.

We are not alone in suffering from the problem. For example, I posted Chris Dolmar’s email about the problems he has had with running the American Town Hall forum. He has found the only solution to these people he describes as trolls is something he calls “instant death”: His forum rules includes the following: “Obviously abusive disruption tactics exhibited here (Of which the Admins/Mods here ARE All Too familiar with) will not be tolerated and will simply result in the banning of the offending member(s). Any member(s) banned for violations of the aforementioned guidelines or the Forum Code of Conduct listed below will not be reinstated. While forum members recognize the code of conduct, trolls don't. Once again; To the trolls: - be assured of the instant death policy.”

It has become clear over the last few months that the main offenders are members of other forums. One even went as far as to urge other members to boycott our forum. Others have urged to starting up of rival forums. It seems that their disruptive behaviour is more than just an expression of being psychologically disturbed.

This forum gets a large number of page impressions. One of the reasons for this is that the Spartacus website creates deep links into the forum. Spartacus has over 6 million visitors a month. This is why authors and researchers are keen to make use of the forum. That has obviously created a great deal of jealousy amongst those who run less-popular forums.

I am happy for members of other organizations to use our forum to publicize their activities. For example, the conferences that are taking place in November. However, I will not allow members to try and discredit this forum by their disruptive behaviour.

After a long talk on the phone yesterday, Andy and I have decided to bring in a tougher moderation policy. We will no longer tolerate trolls on this forum. We will initially place these offenders on moderation. After 25 moderated postings we will consider reinstating them. If they are readmitted, any further bad behaviour will result in the deletion of their membership.

It has been drawn to my attention that some members have resorted to posting comments about the way Andy and I run this forum. This includes one member who has followed the example of the Holocaust denier of posting a photograph of me on his own forum and encouraged supporters to cause trouble. His membership has been deleted.

Also, some members have removed the link in their signature to their biography. Others are lacking a photograph. You have a week to correct this. If you do not do so, you will be placed on moderation and your posts will not become visible until you abide by membership rules.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

John, its is beyond dispute that Andy and yourself retain the respect, and gratitude of the vast majority of Forum members. How much glee this infighting must bring to the hearts of those resonsible for the untimely death of Kennedy, and its continued cover up, can only be imagined. As someone once oppined, "With friends like these who needs enemies."

[Frank Agbat]

John, its is beyond dispute that Andy and yourself retain the respect, and gratitude of the vast majority of Forum members. How much glee this infighting must bring to the hearts of those resonsible for the untimely death of Kennedy, and its continued cover up, can only be imagined. As someone once oppined, "With friends like these who needs enemies."

Well said, Stephen!

Disagreement is a necessary part in finding the truth in any endeavor. It is from the examination of many points of view that accepted facts are challenged and ultimately proven, either true or false. Without challenge, nothing changes -- this can be demonstrated from history time and time again. However, the vitriol on this forum, especially for the past 6 months or so, is neither conducive to research nor to education.

John and Andy have been patient and generous hosts, and I fully support their administration of this forum as they see fit.

[Denis Pointing]

John, I am no teacher or student, just a 'common' builder with a very low level education. My one academic strength in school was history, which unfortunately, was never particular encouraged by my teachers, in my school the three R's was the main concern, history was for the 'brighter' boys. John, I just want to say that I have learned more about history from 'lurking' on your forum than I ever did from ten years of formal education. Don't you dare suggest that this forum is not a fantastic success. And I will always be grateful to yourself and Andy for providing this font of knowledge. My sincere thanks to you both. PS How do you post those damn avatar photos. LOL Denis.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Denis Pointing

[John Simkin]

John, I am no teacher or student, just a 'common' builder with a very low level education. My one academic strength in school was history, which unfortunately, was never particular encouraged by my teachers, in my school the three R's was the main concern, history was for the 'brighter' boys. John, I just want to say that I have learned more about history from 'lurking' on your forum than I ever did from ten years of formal education. Don't you dare suggest that this forum is not a fantastic success. And I will always be grateful to yourself and Andy for providing this font of knowledge. My sincere thanks to you both. PS How do you post those damn avatar photos. LOL Denis.

Pleased to hear that you have had such a good experience on the forum. I also did not like history at school. I was lucky to meet a fellow factory worker who introduced me to the joys of history.

First select a photograph on your hard-drive. Your picture must be no bigger than 64 pixels by 64 pixels in size. If the width is less than 64 pixels, make a note of its size. If you are unable to do this, send me the photograph by email and I will do it for you.

Now go to My Controls (top, right of the screen).

Select ‘Edit Avatar Settings’ (under Personal Profile).

Go to the bottom of the page where it says ‘Upload a new image from your computer’. Click ‘Browse’.

(A box will appear at the top that will show what is on your computer. You now have to find your photograph (best to leave it on your Desktop – if not, find the folder where you have stored it).

Click the image and then click ‘Open’.

Type in the size of your photograph (in pixels)

Now click ‘Update Avatar’. You picture should now appear on the screen. It will now appear every time you make a posting.