Young men as young as 14 into test Ops

[Greg Parker]

As to the law I would not know about that. I do know that VA records show many young men in the military at ages 14-17 during the time fram I speak.I know about the Iran-Contra and the Boland Act and that was above the law of the land... Special Operations... and we have S/E Asia and young men in special ops under age.. but I'll let the research community untangle all that. I know I was in the Texas National Guard one month before I turned 15 and at Ft Bliss in the Regular Army in 1953 and in the Fourth Army Reserve in 1954 at Dallas Love Field.......I was a Cpl before I was 16. I was under CIA contract from the military at 18 and with JM/WAVE Miami Station at age 24-25. Fact.

Thanks for the reply, Tosh.

Iran-Contra was a matter of overstepping a law introduced by Reagan - though I'm sure those involved didn't see it that way.

This is an entirely different matter. We are not talking about a third world country in Latin America or Africa. 14 year olds in the Military is a serious concern. It would require legal authority, administration and on an individual basis - parental consent. This is not something the DoD could just decide to do because they thought it was a good idea.

The reason the threads are disjointed is because I have been trying to respond for over 12 hours now. In an attempt to help and futher research. I can handle the HARD questions.... Can you handle the HARD research?

Your acknowledgment that the initial post may be hard to grasp without reading all the other threads is welcome... and the reason given for the disjointed nature completely understandable.

As far as research goes... I think it is imperative that the law underpinning what you say happened is identified. Understanding the background and intended purpose of various laws and policies is part of my way of proceeding. When you view Oswald's actions alongside those things... the true nature of those actions start to emerge.

Let's move on with more questions. I have no idea how hard they are.

Do you believe you were targeted for this because of your police record?

Was parental consent requested and granted?

Again, I understand you're being fired questions all over the place, so take your time.

[William Plumlee]

As to the law I would not know about that. I do know that VA records show many young men in the military at ages 14-17 during the time fram I speak.I know about the Iran-Contra and the Boland Act and that was above the law of the land... Special Operations... and we have S/E Asia and young men in special ops under age.. but I'll let the research community untangle all that. I know I was in the Texas National Guard one month before I turned 15 and at Ft Bliss in the Regular Army in 1953 and in the Fourth Army Reserve in 1954 at Dallas Love Field.......I was a Cpl before I was 16. I was under CIA contract from the military at 18 and with JM/WAVE Miami Station at age 24-25. Fact.

Thanks for the reply, Tosh.

Iran-Contra was a matter of overstepping a law introduced by Reagan - though I'm sure those involved didn't see it that way.

This is an entirely different matter. We are not talking about a third world country in Latin America or Africa. 14 year olds in the Military is a serious concern. It would require legal authority, administration and on an individual basis - parental consent. This is not something the DoD could just decide to do because they thought it was a good idea.

The reason the threads are disjointed is because I have been trying to respond for over 12 hours now. In an attempt to help and futher research. I can handle the HARD questions.... Can you handle the HARD research?

Your acknowledgment that the initial post may be hard to grasp without reading all the other threads is welcome... and the reason given for the disjointed nature completely understandable.

As far as research goes... I think it is imperative that the law underpinning what you say happened is identified. Understanding the background and intended purpose of various laws and policies is part of my way of proceeding. When you view Oswald's actions alongside those things... the true nature of those actions start to emerge.

Let's move on with more questions. I have no idea how hard they are.

Do you believe you were targeted for this because of your police record?

I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Was parental consent requested and granted?

They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Again, I understand you're being fired questions all over the place, so take your time.

Edited January 15, 2008 by William Plumlee

[William Plumlee]

As to the law I would not know about that. I do know that VA records show many young men in the military at ages 14-17 during the time fram I speak.I know about the Iran-Contra and the Boland Act and that was above the law of the land... Special Operations... and we have S/E Asia and young men in special ops under age.. but I'll let the research community untangle all that. I know I was in the Texas National Guard one month before I turned 15 and at Ft Bliss in the Regular Army in 1953 and in the Fourth Army Reserve in 1954 at Dallas Love Field.......I was a Cpl before I was 16. I was under CIA contract from the military at 18 and with JM/WAVE Miami Station at age 24-25. Fact.

Thanks for the reply, Tosh.

Iran-Contra was a matter of overstepping a law introduced by Reagan - though I'm sure those involved didn't see it that way.

This is an entirely different matter. We are not talking about a third world country in Latin America or Africa. 14 year olds in the Military is a serious concern. It would require legal authority, administration and on an individual basis - parental consent. This is not something the DoD could just decide to do because they thought it was a good idea.

The reason the threads are disjointed is because I have been trying to respond for over 12 hours now. In an attempt to help and futher research. I can handle the HARD questions.... Can you handle the HARD research?

Your acknowledgment that the initial post may be hard to grasp without reading all the other threads is welcome... and the reason given for the disjointed nature completely understandable.

As far as research goes... I think it is imperative that the law underpinning what you say happened is identified. Understanding the background and intended purpose of various laws and policies is part of my way of proceeding. When you view Oswald's actions alongside those things... the true nature of those actions start to emerge.

Let's move on with more questions. I have no idea how hard they are.

Do you believe you were targeted for this because of your police record?

I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Was parental consent requested and granted?

They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Again, I understand you're being fired questions all over the place, so take your time.

This might help also. I hope it post as an attatchment:

It failed... I do not have enough space... It was a VA Awards letter and had all my elistments dates ect.... oh well come see come saw....

[Greg Parker]

Tosh,

I have confirmed you could join National Guard and Army Reserves at 14. Not confirmed yet is issue of written parental consent. It appears your parents gave verbal consent only. But that's now only a minor issue. In short, there was nothing extraordinary in it. And you would certainly not have seen any action in NG or Army until "of age".

Yet to confirm, but it seems going into regular army via National Guard may have been a way of circumventing normal age requirement.

To do your story justice would mean to check every detail, and all contracts signed against legal requirements. The devil really is in the detail and it is there that solid inferences can be gleaned as to what it all may mean.

As it stands, without such detailed study, and based solely on what I've read in this thread... I'd speculate you were possibly placed into the National Security Training Corps (NSTC)... yet if that had been the case, I'd expect you to know that's what you were in (even if the training was being given through the National Guard and/or the Army).

Oswald, imo, was in the NSTC when he enlisted into Marines.

[Len Colby]

Tosh,

I would like to apologize for falsely insinuating you were trying to pull a fast one but your own comment that your intention was “to pull a chain or two” added to the impression that you were. So did seeing statements from YOU (elsewhere) that “I was enlisted and assigned to military specialized operations at Fort Bliss, Texas in April of 1954” with no mention of previous service in tne National Guard.

Also as Greg pointed out your claim that “The following link indicates an arrest in New Orleans in July 52 and then this person was husseled into the army approx 4mo later (Oct 52) and sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54. “ was false. The linked page didn’t back any of your claims. Though the information might rather be found on other threads as (once again) Greg put it “any connection between what was written in the initial post and its title needs to be clear and in one place.” It indicated you were questioned in a small town in central Texas and made no mention of New Orleans. There was no indication of what crime you’d committed (or even that you’d committed or been charges with one) or what sentence you been given.

Looking for some of the missing info I went to the next page of the same document which mentioned a “subject” who was arrested and sentenced for “theft an interstate transportation of an automobile” i.e. “crossing a state line in a stolden can” (sic) the crime you said you been charged with. Since both page were from the document and the “subject” of the second one was charged with the crime you said you been arrested for I incorrectly assumed they referred to the same incident. I noticed the identical May and June 1952 dates on both pages rather than the 1951 interview date.

Also if you want to get nitpicky you said you were arrested in July 1952 but the May 19 document indicated you were questioned February 26.

There was no malicious intent on my part just as you can make innocent mistakes, like saying a linked document “indicates” things it doesn’t and getting confused about dates I can make innocent mistakes like failing to notice a date and getting confused by your incorrect information.

If you want to foster “hard research” perhaps you could start by giving accurate information in your posts.

Len

[Dawn Meredith]

Tosh,

I have confirmed you could join National Guard and Army Reserves at 14. Not confirmed yet is issue of written parental consent. It appears your parents gave verbal consent only. But that's now only a minor issue. In short, there was nothing extraordinary in it. And you would certainly not have seen any action in NG or Army until "of age".

Yet to confirm, but it seems going into regular army via National Guard may have been a way of circumventing normal age requirement.

To do your story justice would mean to check every detail, and all contracts signed against legal requirements. The devil really is in the detail and it is there that solid inferences can be gleaned as to what it all may mean.

As it stands, without such detailed study, and based solely on what I've read in this thread... I'd speculate you were possibly placed into the National Security Training Corps (NSTC)... yet if that had been the case, I'd expect you to know that's what you were in (even if the training was being given through the National Guard and/or the Army).

Oswald, imo, was in the NSTC when he enlisted into Marines.

It is my understanding that my old friend- and Tosh's very old friend- the now deceased Jay Harrison could substantiate a lot of Tosh's background. Jay's research was left to Walt Brown when Jay passed 5/25/05. Perhaps those of us who know Walt can give him a nudge. (He is currently working on a massive project, but after that is done, perhaps). I plan to call him this weekend and make some inquires.

Dawn

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,

I have confirmed you could join National Guard and Army Reserves at 14. Not confirmed yet is issue of written parental consent. It appears your parents gave verbal consent only. But that's now only a minor issue. In short, there was nothing extraordinary in it. And you would certainly not have seen any action in NG or Army until "of age".

Would you care to post your confrimation?

Would you care to see the bullit hole in my Butt?

Yet to confirm, but it seems going into regular army via National Guard may have been a way of circumventing normal age requirement.

Yes. I did it all by myself with no help from anyone.

To do your story justice would mean to check every detail, and all contracts signed against legal requirements. The devil really is in the detail and it is there that solid inferences can be gleaned as to what it all may mean.

Its taken over fifty years to get this far. And we would not be here if I had not opened my mouth and obtain the classified documentation through declassification processes to prove to those who have said "it never happened: FACT I joined the Army National Guard at 14-- Regular Fourth Army at 15 Fourth Army Reserve at 16.

As it stands, without such detailed study, and based solely on what I've read in this thread... I'd speculate you were possibly placed into the National Security Training Corps (NSTC)... yet if that had been the case, I'd expect you to know that's what you were in (even if the training was being given through the National Guard and/or the Army).

Oswald, imo, was in the NSTC when he enlisted into Marines.

Your right. there is nothing to this and the fact that I was assigned a military MOS of 1795 as a Tank Creman at 14 assign to a Shetman Tank as a a tank driver and received a bullit hole in the butt in a hostile fire fighti;. assigned to an Army Reserve Unit at 15 when the law states you cannot be in the Army Reserve unless you had completed a full tour of duty in the regular Army. Not to mention receiving the rank of Cpl. before I was 16 and a CIA file which starts in Feb of 1954 And received flight training under the GI Bill in 54.., ended up in Cuba in 1956 is all normal course of action... and all within the law of the time. And it is normal procedure to seal the military file and the 1952 court records for over fifty years, then classifie the CIA file and events which are in the file with the enlistment record. SOP My point in starting this thread was to show a chain of events which led a young man to Miami, Cuba, Dallas, and beyond, who played a very small part in some of the most turbulent years of American history. I started this thread to answer the question; how did a young man of 14 get into the Regular Army, and too how young men bond for prison were sent into the army to train for specialized military operations for whatever reasons.

But your right. Its all legal and above board. But for those who said years ago that it could not happen and it did not happen-- a boy my age sneaking into the military through the back door on his own, with no help from anyone-- and not being able to present, in those years, any records or papers when asked for proof-- because they had been burned in a fire in St Louis in 1972-- means the event or events did not happen. So the first link in the chain did not happen and therefore none of the events thereafter as outline happened,... but if they did they were legal..... sounds like CIA Mumbo-Jumgo- to me. The documentation is now declassified and in place after fifty years.

Now lets put this puppy to bed and move on to other matters which are more important than my input and contributions to this Forum and the research community as a whole concerning the JFK mater and beyond.

[Greg Parker]

Tosh,

I'll try again.

Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue.

The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on.

As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age".

Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared.

You say you want to help, but the manner in which you've posted information is just plain confusing and difficult to follow. Moreover, your reaction to a suggestion that detailed study is required doesn't inspire much confidence.

If you want people to simply take your word that there was something inexplicable going on without any definable historical context - that's fine. You'll find no shortage of gullible types here ready for acolyte status. I've got better things to do.

[Len Colby]

And it is normal procedure to seal the military file and the 1952 court records for over fifty years

I don't know about the rest but it was normally when I was growing up, in the 70's and early 80's for juvenile records to be sealed barring a court order to the contrary. I believe that's still the way it is today and that's the way it was back in 1952. Thus it makes sense that your court record was sealed. I believe your friend's name was blacked out in the FBI document for the same reason

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,

I would like to apologize for falsely insinuating you were trying to pull a fast one but your own comment that your intention was “to pull a chain or two” added to the impression that you were. So did seeing statements from YOU (elsewhere) that “I was enlisted and assigned to military specialized operations at Fort Bliss, Texas in April of 1954” with no mention of previous service in tne National Guard.

Also as Greg pointed out your claim that “The following link indicates an arrest in New Orleans in July 52 and then this person was husseled into the army approx 4mo later (Oct 52) and sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54. “ was false. The linked page didn’t back any of your claims. Though the information might rather be found on other threads as (once again) Greg put it “any connection between what was written in the initial post and its title needs to be clear and in one place.” It indicated you were questioned in a small town in central Texas and made no mention of New Orleans. There was no indication of what crime you’d committed (or even that you’d committed or been charges with one) or what sentence you been given.

Looking for some of the missing info I went to the next page of the same document which mentioned a “subject” who was arrested and sentenced for “theft an interstate transportation of an automobile” i.e. “crossing a state line in a stolden can” (sic) the crime you said you been charged with. Since both page were from the document and the “subject” of the second one was charged with the crime you said you been arrested for I incorrectly assumed they referred to the same incident. I noticed the identical May and June 1952 dates on both pages rather than the 1951 interview date.

Also if you want to get nitpicky you said you were arrested in July 1952 but the May 19 document indicated you were questioned February 26.

There was no malicious intent on my part just as you can make innocent mistakes, like saying a linked document “indicates” things it doesn’t and getting confused about dates I can make innocent mistakes like failing to notice a date and getting confused by your incorrect information.

If you want to foster “hard research” perhaps you could start by giving accurate information in your posts.

Len

Also as Greg pointed out your claim that “The following link indicates an arrest in New Orleans in July 52 and then this person was husseled into the army approx 4mo later (Oct 52) and sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54. “ was false. The linked page didn’t back any of your claims...".

reply

Sir. Please re read your documents. Staton was arrested and signed a statement on 10-19-51 to the effect he stold a car. The arrest of me and others was 2-26-52 the auto in question was reported stolden on 2-22-52 The 1951 arrest and confession of Staton would be approx four months before the auto theft in the Plumlee, Farrentello, Huckby, case. Did Stanton sign a confession 4 months before the crime? Could that page of 1951 been missed filed and put into the Plumlee Feb 22 1952 file? I know that could not happen because the FBI could not make such a mistake. Point being Staton had nothing to do with the Plumlee case. As to the dates of service please re read the discharge papers posted...

You said "...start by giving accurate information in your posts.

Can you read? Be nit pick thats fine.... I supplied the documentation, and you failed to interp it corectly... not me... Point being I was arrested on Feb 22,1952 and in the National Guard the following Oct 22,1952 thu Feb 8,1953 went in one month before my 15th birthdday. (4 mo after my arrest) thansfered to the FOURTH ARMY RESERVE Sept 28 1953 to March 2, 1954 the next day March 3 1954 into the regular Army at Ft Bliss as a Cpl until 2 July 1954.

How did I get the rank of Cpl. after only 4 months in the military.... Regular Army as well as Army Reserve?

As to what happen in the sentencing of the car therft how could you know what the disposition was? Its all BLACKED OUT and sealed... just recently released and unsealed however details of the arrangement are still BLACKED OUT.

I have more important things to do that point out sloppy research on your part. Its been over fifty years ago and none of the documentation was avail to get all the transfering around as to days and months from memory... I guess I am just aliar. and we will leave it at that... I have every right to be hot

"...start by giving accurate information in your posts. you said. Well sir... It is accurate. You have missed the whole point of the post. I attempted to show the correct record by posting the documents I was on 4 years federal Probation and in the Army at the time I was on Probation... Did the military not do a background check on me?...... I can't disprove a negative on your part. So we will just move along and you think what you want.

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,

I'll try again.

Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue.

The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on.

As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age".

Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared.

\

You say you want to help, but the manner in which you've posted information is just plain confusing and difficult to follow. Moreover, your reaction to a suggestion that detailed study is required doesn't inspire much confidence.

If you want people to simply take your word that there was something inexplicable going on without any definable historical context - that's fine. You'll find no shortage of gullible types here ready for acolyte status. I've got better things to do.

Sir: I too, have better things to do than bottle feed and nurse you along the road of research and life.

I will do your homework this one last time.

Go to the 1951 document and look at the top of the page where it says CASE NUMBER #DL 26-14024 this is a 1951 case number referenced to Stanton's arrest of 10-19- 1951.

Now go to the 1952 Plumlee document and look at the bottom of that page CASE NUMBER #26-157654 . The case numbers or file numbers are not the same. These are TWO different cases. The Stanton case or file was put into the Plumlee file. Was this a mistake in filing or done by FBI or Marry Ferrell Foundation???. As to your statement that no New Orleans records..., read the complete file. What is the OO (Office of Orgin) of the 26-12925 and 26-14405 FBI files?

Sir. You owe me an apology. Or was this intended to derail research for your own gratification..., being your such a solid and a good researcher and like to deal with the law and FACTS.

Also:

How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have and will do..

.

Edited January 16, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Greg Parker]

How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have.

Tosh, the Korean War went from June 25 1950 to July 27 1953.

In your initial post, you said you'd been "sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54." Prior to 1952, you were not in the NG, Army Reserves or regular Army.

My ref. for saying you could join NG at 14 is VN vet. However, I have just checked the current requirement from NG enlistment website and it is 17 WITH parental consent - 18 without, so I assume the age requirement was different in the 1950s.

Without doubt, the Armed Services turned a blind eye to age requirements when sending people into armed combat zones at certain points in history. In fact, there is an organization which represents them called VUMS (Veterans of Underage Military Service).

You say you were in Korea though younger than 18. Fine. Illegal... but far from an isolated case. What isn't clear is how you could be in Korea AND at Ft Bliss receiving training simultaneously.

Not trying to pick arguments - just trying to get a handle on this. I really do not have the time let alone the patience to wade through all your recent posts trying to put (sometimes contradictory) statements together into a cohesive whole.

I read this thread only because as already indicated - the subject of using youth in the Cold War is one that interests me.

[Dawn Meredith]

Tosh,

I'll try again.

Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue.

The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on.

As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age".

Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared.

Greg:

I don't have the information. Former "deep cover" researcher Jay Harrison had documentation of Tosh's claims. Jay died 5/25/05 and all his research was left to Walt Brown. While he was alive Jay did tell me many times that Tosh and his claims are legit. However by the time I joined this forum and discovered Tosh Jay was already very ill with the cancer that killed him so I did not ask for details, beyond the basic veracity question. Walt has been away in Russia, but I plan to call him this weekend and discuss some of this.

Dawn

[William Plumlee]

How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have.

Tosh, the Korean War went from June 25 1950 to July 27 1953.

In your initial post, you said you'd been "sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54." Prior to 1952, you were not in the NG, Army Reserves or regular Army.

My ref. for saying you could join NG at 14 is VN vet. However, I have just checked the current requirement from NG enlistment website and it is 17 WITH parental consent - 18 without, so I assume the age requirement was different in the 1950s.

Without doubt, the Armed Services turned a blind eye to age requirements when sending people into armed combat zones at certain points in history. In fact, there is an organization which represents them called VUMS (Veterans of Underage Military Service).

You say you were in Korea though younger than 18. Fine. Illegal... but far from an isolated case. What isn't clear is how you could be in Korea AND at Ft Bliss receiving training simultaneously.

Not trying to pick arguments - just trying to get a handle on this. I really do not have the time let alone the patience to wade through all your recent posts trying to put (sometimes contradictory) statements together into a cohesive whole.

I read this thread only because as already indicated - the subject of using youth in the Cold War is one that interests me.

Again Have you ever heard of Military Police action at the DMZ? after the Peace talks? War was over but the shooting had not stoped for years later. This is redicules trying to reason with you and a total waste of my time... Move along son theres nothing to see here. And too, Leave my air alone...

Would you like to take the bullit out of my XXX

Edited by moderator for langauge.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Greg Parker]

Again Have you ever heard of Military Police action at the DMZ? after the Peace talks? War was over but the shooting had not stoped for years later.

The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?

This is redicules trying to reason with you and a total waste of my time

You're not reasoning... you're adding detail to your story in response to my efforts to get clarification. If you think it's a waste of time, that's you doing a dummy spit instead of doing what you claim you could... answer the "hard questions".

Move along son theres nothing to see here. And too, Leave my air alone...

Well... this is the problem with trying to get relevant information from someone making claims such as yours. You say you want to help... say you can handle questions... but when it comes down to it, you resent any response that's anything but groveling acceptance of every vague statement made. It's why I'd rather work with documents - and where they're not available, at least try and ascertain the raw facts on dates, names, places, actions taken to be placed in historical context.

You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?

Greg:

I don't have the information. Former "deep cover" researcher Jay Harrison had documentation of Tosh's claims. Jay died 5/25/05 and all his research was left to Walt Brown. While he was alive Jay did tell me many times that Tosh and his claims are legit. However by the time I joined this forum and discovered Tosh Jay was already very ill with the cancer that killed him so I did not ask for details, beyond the basic veracity question. Walt has been away in Russia, but I plan to call him this weekend and discuss some of this.

Dawn, thanks for this response. Message received. Good luck with the call. I hope afterwards, you can report back, but understand if Walt wants anything he says kept in confidence.