Len Colby Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Sir. Please re read your documents. Staton was arrested and signed a statement on 10-19-51 As I made clear I’m no longer referring to the Stanton document As to the dates of service please re read the discharge papers posted... Which discharge papers posted where? You said the information could be found in “the following link” it couldn’t that was one of the inaccuracies I was referring to. You said "...start by giving accurate information in your posts.Can you read? Yes, can you? I supplied the documentation, and you failed to interp it corectly.. If you supplied it you didn’t do so where you indicated you had, “the following link indicates…” doesn’t mean that documentation of the subsequent claims could be found by hunting down links on other threads of this forum. It means you’re supposed to be able to find it on the linked page. Point being I was arrested on Feb 22,1952 and in the National Guard the following Oct 22,1952 thu Feb 8,1953… I’m NOT disputing any of that, only your claim that substatiation could be found on the link page from the Mary Ferral site. As to what happen in the sentencing of the car therft how could you know what the disposition was? I don’t claim to know what the disposition was you were the one who claimed it could verified on the linked page Tosh to Greg: I was…assigned to an Army Reserve Unit at 15 when the law states you cannot be in the Army Reserve unless you had completed a full tour of duty in the regular Army. That’s not the case not today atleast. Go to this page http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp?#?channel=&video= and see the “Civilian and Soldier, Army Reserve” menu it has two options: “New to the Army” and “Prior Sevice”. This page profiles members of the Reserve http://www.goarmy.com/reserve/nps/soldier_profiles.jsp there is no indication any of them ever served in the regular Army several of them talk about how what they learn in the reserve helped them get jobs. This page outlines the “Mission of the Army Reserve “ http://www.armyreserve.army.mil/ARWEB/MISS...n+Statement.htm The Army Reserve's mission, under Title 10 of the U.S. code, is to provide trained and ready Soldiers and units with the critical combat service support and combat support capabilities necessary to support nation strategy during peacetime, contingencies and war. The Army Reserve is a key element in The Army multi-component unit force, training with Active and National Guard units to ensure all three components work as a fully integrated team. • Enabling the Army to do more with fewer resources, by providing a flexible, well-trained, complementary force that can expand and contract to meet the specific needs and challenges of each new mission. • Training Soldiers at the highest possible level in one of nearly 200 specific skills in order to support the Army on any air, land or sea mission. […] Nor do I think that was the case in the 50’s or ever based on these links which discuss the history of the Army Reserve http://www.armyreserve.army.mil/ARWEB/MISSION/History.htm http://www.armyreserve.army.mil/NR/rdonlyr...iorCitizens.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have. Tosh, the Korean War went from June 25 1950 to July 27 1953. In your initial post, you said you'd been "sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54." Prior to 1952, you were not in the NG, Army Reserves or regular Army. My ref. for saying you could join NG at 14 is VN vet. However, I have just checked the current requirement from NG enlistment website and it is 17 WITH parental consent - 18 without, so I assume the age requirement was different in the 1950s. Without doubt, the Armed Services turned a blind eye to age requirements when sending people into armed combat zones at certain points in history. In fact, there is an organization which represents them called VUMS (Veterans of Underage Military Service). You say you were in Korea though younger than 18. Fine. Illegal... but far from an isolated case. What isn't clear is how you could be in Korea AND at Ft Bliss receiving training simultaneously. Not trying to pick arguments - just trying to get a handle on this. I really do not have the time let alone the patience to wade through all your recent posts trying to put (sometimes contradictory) statements together into a cohesive whole. I read this thread only because as already indicated - the subject of using youth in the Cold War is one that interests me. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311 (cut past into url) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Tosh,I'll try again. Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue. The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on. As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age". Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared. You say you want to help, but the manner in which you've posted information is just plain confusing and difficult to follow. Moreover, your reaction to a suggestion that detailed study is required doesn't inspire much confidence. If you want people to simply take your word that there was something inexplicable going on without any definable historical context - that's fine. You'll find no shortage of gullible types here ready for acolyte status. I've got better things to do. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311 (cut and past into iUrl) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Tosh,I'll try again. Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue. The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on. As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age". Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared. You say you want to help, but the manner in which you've posted information is just plain confusing and difficult to follow. Moreover, your reaction to a suggestion that detailed study is required doesn't inspire much confidence. If you want people to simply take your word that there was something inexplicable going on without any definable historical context - that's fine. You'll find no shortage of gullible types here ready for acolyte status. I've got better things to do. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311 (cut and past into iUrl) June 5, 1954 shot in the butt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have. Tosh, the Korean War went from June 25 1950 to July 27 1953. In your initial post, you said you'd been "sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54." Prior to 1952, you were not in the NG, Army Reserves or regular Army. My ref. for saying you could join NG at 14 is VN vet. However, I have just checked the current requirement from NG enlistment website and it is 17 WITH parental consent - 18 without, so I assume the age requirement was different in the 1950s. Without doubt, the Armed Services turned a blind eye to age requirements when sending people into armed combat zones at certain points in history. In fact, there is an organization which represents them called VUMS (Veterans of Underage Military Service). You say you were in Korea though younger than 18. Fine. Illegal... but far from an isolated case. What isn't clear is how you could be in Korea AND at Ft Bliss receiving training simultaneously. Not trying to pick arguments - just trying to get a handle on this. I really do not have the time let alone the patience to wade through all your recent posts trying to put (sometimes contradictory) statements together into a cohesive whole. I read this thread only because as already indicated - the subject of using youth in the Cold War is one that interests me. Again Have you ever heard of Military Police action at the DMZ? after the Peace talks? War was over but the shooting had not stoped for years later. This is redicules trying to reason with you and a total waste of my time... Move along son theres nothing to see here. And too, Leave my air alone... Would you like to take the bullit out of my XXX Edited by moderator for langauge. Hope the link below posted. This might answer your questions http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Peter or Tosh, maybe one of you can provide direct answers. Whether it's understood or not, I am trying to be objective. Regarding enlistment in National Guard: The records indicate correct date of birth... so no effort made to conceal age on enlistment. The judge ordered he either join or go into Juvenile Detention. If enlistment into NG at 14 was illegal, you have a judge ordering a minor to be part of an illegal act... in order to avoid punishment for another illegal act. I have posted evidence that another person was in the Texas NG during late '40s at 14. He does not indicate he lied about his age. Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal? If not, why not? ------------- The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up? How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it? -------------- We actually have a few totally meaningless things in common. We share the same middle name. We've both been censored here for using the same harmless word (let us try and use "buttocks" in future when needing to discuss that part of the anatomy ) We've both been in the water with large reptiles -- in my case, lawyers and saltwater crocs. But we also have one serious thing in common: We both believe LHO never shot anyone on 11/22/63. ----------------- Let me be perfectly clear... the fact that I believe you entered the military legally does not mean I am denying that "nothing was happening here..." I simply don't know, and am trying to get enough info to work it out. This is why I kept coming back to the NSTC... those in it were trained WITHIN the various arms of the services... and training might be anything from truck driving or mechanics... through to officer training or intelligence operations... though I take your lack of response to this so far as indicating whatever you believe was "happening here" in the 52 to 54 period... it had nothing to do with the NSTC. come see come saw... n'est-ce pas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 http://www.dallashistory.org/cgi-bin/webbb...ames;read=48198 "as a young lad of 14-15 while going to Alex W Spence Jr.High in Dallas. I also refueled aircraft at Dallas Aero Service and cleaned the hanger when I was 14. I would wash the airplanes and clean the windows for free rides in the Loadstar C-60's. " Although certainly "honorable" employment for a young lad of 14 to 15 years of age, washing aircraft (& their windows) as well as cleaning out the hanger, while attending "Junior High School", is somewhat deficient in awarding one an MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) which has any association with covert operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 http://www.dallashistory.org/cgi-bin/webbb...ames;read=48198"as a young lad of 14-15 while going to Alex W Spence Jr.High in Dallas. I also refueled aircraft at Dallas Aero Service and cleaned the hanger when I was 14. I would wash the airplanes and clean the windows for free rides in the Loadstar C-60's. " Although certainly "honorable" employment for a young lad of 14 to 15 years of age, washing aircraft (& their windows) as well as cleaning out the hanger, while attending "Junior High School", is somewhat deficient in awarding one an MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) which has any association with covert operations. Thomas, Are you trying to allege Tosh was not involved and/or training for covert operations at 15, or that he was never so involved - or some other variant? As a "young lad" of approximately 13, I was washing windshields, refueling cars, as well as cleaning them out, to include the men's room and the garage. All of which merely meant that I worked at a gas station which was managed by my Uncle, while I too was in Junior High. And, although it was "good training" for becoming a Private in the National Guard &/or Army, it had little to do with anything "covert". So, might I recommend that you try to sell this BS to those who know no better. P.S. Being questioned in Texas about a car that was stolen in Louisiana, although the two may be directly related, is neither indicative of or substantive proof of one being arrested and charged with vehicle theft/Interstate Transportation of a Stolen Vehicle. Not to mention as serving as some form of "proof" that one was arrested in Louisiana for the offense. ]"as a young lad of 14-15 while going to Alex W Spence Jr.High in Dallas." Now that, I actually believe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Might you have any idea who these people might be? Most probably all those who are smoking the same "stuff" which he is apparantly on. That stuff allegedly will make one see and/or believe much of their tales, as is clearly demonstrated by some of our local river rats. http://ufologie.net/htm/pascagoula.htm Then again, it may merely be "first run" shine which came through a car radiator, and which will have about the same effect on one's brain. As to Mr. Hemming, rest assured that he is among the "real warriors" out at Bragg, and if the JFK Historian follows through on our conversations, hopefully he & Gerry will also contribute something to the factual history of Special Operations. Does your "client" have anything of factual value which the JFK Center would find of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Greg, I know you are....I've tried to convince Tosh you are...he's touchy on some things. He'd have to answer these specific questions for you. Thank you Peter. However, that being said, I have seen other documents on him that were OBVIOUSLY modified at a later date with the original date still on them....meaning anything is possible in black and white. I saw a document with him having a tatoo [which he still has and is quite obvious!] and a 'later' document [from the same issuing authority] stating no marks or tatoos...height and weight changes that are Yes, before you even mentioned this, I also, in the course of playing "catch up" on someone I'd frankly never taken any interest in before, spotted some discrepancies in descriptions... some of the ones you note, and also eye color. impossible; two documents - one showing he was on mission X on this date - the other [both looking official and obtained officially] saying he was in prison Do you still have the documents, or know where they can be located? your strictly rational, what you see is what you get approach, to me, doesn't hold water all the time.....with covert operatives. Aren't you employing circular reasoning? He was a covert operative, therefore documents related to him will contain deliberate misinformation. I know he was a covert operative because documents about him contain misinformation.... I have no reason to question that these were 'cooked' nor that Tosh is being anything other than honest here....from what I know. In another thread, Tom has indicated that his (Tosh's) discharge of "minority" indicates he was discharged due to being a minor. I had noticed the same wording, but did not associate "minority" with "minor" (and have slapped myself mercilessly for this bout of density). In any case, it appears the info I had was wrong. Why am I bringing this up now? To illustrate that Tosh was less than forthright when he replied to me that he did not know about the legality of his entry. Even if he didn't know about when he entered, he surely did when they kicked him out. In fact, it appears he knew enough not to declare his earlier enlistment when he joined early a second time. NB - From first-hand experience I know that lawyers [including one's own!] are more dangerous than any crocodile will ever be. Remind me to send photos of my lawyer and a typical Northern Territory Salty for comparison... I will close with a suggestion. In July 1976, Tosh contacted the FBI on multiple occasions about various matters. On the last occasion, the FBI noted "he was advised that it would be easier to understand his associations and activities if he would organize them on paper and furnish his information to the FBI in that matter rather than in disjointed telephone calls. Plumlee agrees this would be best and he would attempt to organize his recollections on paper." I hope he will agree to do a similar thing here, and put all the stuff he thinks is relevant into one or two threads - even if condensed down into dot points. Trying to follow the story through multiple threads... misplaced docs... and general rambling commentaries (enjoyable as they may be in their own right) make it difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Meredith Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Greg, I know you are....I've tried to convince Tosh you are...he's touchy on some things. He'd have to answer these specific questions for you. Thank you Peter. In July 1976, Tosh contacted the FBI on multiple occasions about various matters. On the last occasion, the FBI noted "he was advised that it would be easier to understand his associations and activities if he would organize them on paper and furnish his information to the FBI in that matter rather than in disjointed telephone calls. Plumlee agrees this would be best and he would attempt to organize his recollections on paper." I hope he will agree to do a similar thing here, and put all the stuff he thinks is relevant into one or two threads - even if condensed down into dot points. Trying to follow the story through multiple threads... misplaced docs... and general rambling commentaries (enjoyable as they may be in their own right) make it difficult. Greg: Tosh told me yesterday before he left for a trip that he updated his bio for John, so I think this update will provide you with a lot of information, all in one place. Tosh is going to be gone for awhile on work totally unrelated to this case. I have spoken with him a lot the last week and he feels a bit frustrated in that he "can't prove a negative". ALso when he answers people's questions, or drops intersting leads asking some forum member to follow up there is often no response. He has felt encouraged by a couple of members here. I hope that when (if) he comes back to the forum members will not engage in nickpicking but move on to research that is germaine. Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Greg, I know you are....I've tried to convince Tosh you are...he's touchy on some things. He'd have to answer these specific questions for you. Thank you Peter. However, that being said, I have seen other documents on him that were OBVIOUSLY modified at a later date with the original date still on them....meaning anything is possible in black and white. I saw a document with him having a tatoo [which he still has and is quite obvious!] and a 'later' document [from the same issuing authority] stating no marks or tatoos...height and weight changes that are Yes, before you even mentioned this, I also, in the course of playing "catch up" on someone I'd frankly never taken any interest in before, spotted some discrepancies in descriptions... some of the ones you note, and also eye color. impossible; two documents - one showing he was on mission X on this date - the other [both looking official and obtained officially] saying he was in prison Do you still have the documents, or know where they can be located? your strictly rational, what you see is what you get approach, to me, doesn't hold water all the time.....with covert operatives. Aren't you employing circular reasoning? He was a covert operative, therefore documents related to him will contain deliberate misinformation. I know he was a covert operative because documents about him contain misinformation.... I have no reason to question that these were 'cooked' nor that Tosh is being anything other than honest here....from what I know. In another thread, Tom has indicated that his (Tosh's) discharge of "minority" indicates he was discharged due to being a minor. I had noticed the same wording, but did not associate "minority" with "minor" (and have slapped myself mercilessly for this bout of density). In any case, it appears the info I had was wrong. Why am I bringing this up now? To illustrate that Tosh was less than forthright when he replied to me that he did not know about the legality of his entry. Even if he didn't know about when he entered, he surely did when they kicked him out. In fact, it appears he knew enough not to declare his earlier enlistment when he joined early a second time. NB - From first-hand experience I know that lawyers [including one's own!] are more dangerous than any crocodile will ever be. Remind me to send photos of my lawyer and a typical Northern Territory Salty for comparison... I will close with a suggestion. In July 1976, Tosh contacted the FBI on multiple occasions about various matters. On the last occasion, the FBI noted "he was advised that it would be easier to understand his associations and activities if he would organize them on paper and furnish his information to the FBI in that matter rather than in disjointed telephone calls. Plumlee agrees this would be best and he would attempt to organize his recollections on paper." I hope he will agree to do a similar thing here, and put all the stuff he thinks is relevant into one or two threads - even if condensed down into dot points. Trying to follow the story through multiple threads... misplaced docs... and general rambling commentaries (enjoyable as they may be in their own right) make it difficult. "In another thread, Tom has indicated that his (Tosh's) discharge of "minority" indicates he was discharged due to being a minor. I had noticed the same wording, but did not associate "minority" with "minor" (and have slapped myself mercilessly for this bout of density). In any case, it appears the info I had was wrong. Why am I bringing this up now? To illustrate that Tosh was less than forthright when he replied to me that he did not know about the legality of his entry. Even if he didn't know about when he entered, he surely did when they kicked him out. In fact, it appears he knew enough not to declare his earlier enlistment when he joined early a second time." I do believe the saying went: "One can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but one can never fool all of the people all of the time". (or at least words to that effect) Tom P.S. Total credited time in service for pay purposes (incluldes NG/USAR/& Active Duty) 4 months 1 day (DD214) Basic Training: = 8 weeks Advanced Individual Training: = 8 weeks (actual MOS skill identifier training) Total required active duty service to obtain any MOS: = 16 weeks/aka 4-months. (Plus of course travel time) Sort of looks as if someone actually got through/served long enough to have completed Advanced Individual Training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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