Z-232 Frame / Bronson

[Frank Agbat]

...

Tom.

When looking at your information regarding (concrete construction joints; expansion joints; cracks in the asphalt of Elm St; Yellow Curb marks; etc;)

I must confess, that as a "Novice" at understanding the significant's of the Survey Information you supply, i am totally lost most of the time.

Cheers.

Robin.

It is well worth your time to explore Tom's theory. It is one of the most thoroughly researched and plausible scenarios I have seen presented -- if not THE most plausible. One thing that would greatly enhance one's ability to understand Tom's work would be a complete scan of the West survey. Tom has posted pieces of it, but to have the entire thing as one giant file would be an amazing tool for the research community.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom.

When looking at your information regarding (concrete construction joints; expansion joints; cracks in the asphalt of Elm St; Yellow Curb marks; etc;)

I must confess, that as a "Novice" at understanding the significant's of the Survey Information you supply, i am totally lost most of the time.

Cheers.

Robin.

================================

Then I must accept a part of the blame for often speaking in "tongues" & "riddles", in attempt to get others to not accept anything which I have to say, and if necessary, learn new things and skills in order to evaluate the evidence.

As example.

Some years ago when I still resided in Oklahoma, I had the opportunity to work for "The Benham Group".

http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_gw7ppg

As a major "A&E" firm, they are involved in all forms of Civil Engineering construction, and in working for them, one learns much, even if they already were under the impression that they knew a lot.

Among those items being "construction joint" as well as "expansion joint" necessity in concrete work, to include everything from structures to highway construction (with concrete) as well as asphalt, to include sidewalk construction.

With that knowledge, one learns that concrete curb & gutter (the flat concrete portion which provides street drainage) as well as sidewalk construction is generally poured in equidistant segments. Which, with a trip to Dallas, gives one an extremely good "scale" with which to work in photograhic analysis.

Provided of course that they take the time to actually measure and double-check that these items, as poured along Elm St. were done so in equi-distant segments.

Therefore, when first observing some of the Dealy Plaza photographs, long prior to contact with Mr. West and my first trip to Dallas, it was recognized the importance of location and determination of as many physically permananet objects as necessary if one was to speak intelligently regarding the location of persons/witnesses along Elm st.

With that knowledge, and the later survey plats provided to me by Mr. Robert West, I was in reality in possession of a "gold mine" of knowledge which had never been sufficiently shared with those who truly are interested in factual research.

P.S. The fact that I had had received training in "Aerial Imagery Interpretation" for application of Nuclear Targeting, was of course also of considerable benefit in knowing that one must have some item of which he knows the dimension in any photograph, in order to thereafter determine appropriate "scale" sizes.

So, hope that helps explains the "riddle" in which I sometimes speak. One will not grasp all of the items unless one is open to learning all that can be learned on the subject matter.

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Tom has posted pieces of it, but to have the entire thing as one giant file would be an amazing tool for the research community.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Which, although entirely accurate, is actually an understatement of the fact.

The West WC Survey Plat with it's 1-inch = 1-foot scale is of absolutely immense importance in determination of multitudes of answers to questions.

However, it alone is merely another of those tools necessary.

Without Mr. West true original "working" survey notes, much of what is on the survey plat, can neither be determined fully, nor correlated with the other information.

This is especially true when attempting to correlate data from the smaller scale Time/Life Survey Plat; the SS Survey Plat; and/or the FBI Survey Plat.

Which, not unlike the photographic images; physical measurements of objects within the photographs; etc; themselves are an integral part of the information necessary to decipher much of the facts of the shots fired.

I might add that the HSCA Survey Plat is also a cirtical item as it provides an accurate "cross-check" of the West Survey Plat.

However, if one merely has the HSCA survey plat then he is quite lost as one can not decipher it unless one is in possession of the West Survey Plat as well as the original West working Survey Notes.

Would that be a fair statement of the facts ????????? (that person who is in possession of the Drommer Plat)

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There are those here such as Robin and a few others who have openly shared their work in what is often a "specialized" area, such as merely the photographs.

Nevertheless, such works are absolutely as critical in determination of the facts as is being in possession of the West survey information.

Each represents an integral part of the solution to the problem.

Mr. West was an extremely honorable and apparantly honest man who for whatever reason, entrusted me with every single item of information which he could find in regards to the assassination re-enactments and subsequent survey plats.

Knowing that others would attempt to "take advantage"* of some of this information in order to further attempt to "SALE" their BS conspiracy theories, release of that information was limited until such time as I entered this forum where it could be posted, with full explanations of it's significance in relationship to the witness testimonies as well as the photographic evidence.

*One person has long ago attempted to utilize a fully reduced version of this work in futherance of the BS of the mythological damage/aka bullet impact damage to the concrete curb along the South side of Elm St.

In reality, history may judge me quite harshly in my having defaced some of the West Survey Plats.

In addition to the WC plat(s), I of course obtained copies of the Time/Life Survey Plat of 11/25/63; the SS Survey Plat of 12/5/63; the FBI Survey Plat of 2/7/64; the FBI Survey Plat of 2/7/64 in which Mr. West drew on the plat for SS Agent JJ Howlett how the SS survey varied from the FBI survey plat, as well as a later and completely unknown survey plat for the FBI which Mr. West drew up in June 1964 which clearly demonstrates the impact point for Shot#1 and #2(aka Z313 impact).

Actually, one could state that I hit the "Jackpot" when I contacted Mr. West, as I had no idea that he would have managed to keep copies of these survey plats for his records, as the Government seldom allows such activities.

Having once (long ago) attended survey school, I knew full well that Mr. West could not have had the survey plats prepared without a lot of pages of field survey notes.

My contact was in regards to these, as few even are aware of such things, and the surveyor generally always has this information kept in some field book; notes etc;

And, in reality, these notes are the "heart" of the matter as everything drawn onto the survey plat is generated from these notes.

Mr. West was cordial enough (we had a mutual acquiaintance of a surveyor also named "West" who worked for me in West Texas) to dig through all of his boxes and make copies of the survey notes, and with this I also found that he was in possession of copies of the survey plats as well.

Which I most assuredly paid the expense of having full size copies made.

(I must assume that Mr. West was fully aware that no other person had ever approached him and asked for this information, or else after some of our discussions at his home, he felt that I would not take advantage of it, and he thereafter fully and freely volunteered his discussions relative to the various re-enactments and survey works, as well as continuation to search for additional survey notes and field my questions relative to these items.)

Actually, it never dawned on me that anyone else who "claimed" to being a researcher of the facts, would have never had the sense and understanding of the importance of the survey notes and survey plats in determination of answers. Therefore, I never assumed that I was the ONLY PERSON to have ever contacted Mr. West throughout his life, and asked for copies of this information.

Therefore, after completion of research in the 1990's, these documents were merely "stuffed" away, and could have been easily discarded or destroyed.

As indicated, I actually received TWO full size WC survey plats from Mr. West. It was my original intention to utilize one copy as a working copy and the other merely for reference.

Ultimately, both copies generated into working copies with various lines & angles drawn all over them which represented the various photographic image angles, determination of persons locations, determination of JFK's location, etc; etc; etc.

Then, both copies were ultimately cut into smaller segments in order to produce copies of specific areas which could be easily copied on the small copying machines which I had available.

For that, I should most likely be shot!

Now, I have managed to locate all of the "cut-up" portions of one of the survey plats, and it is fully re-taped back into it's single size, as accurately as it can be replaced. Nevertheless, it contains multitudes of variious lines in #2 pencil in which such things as personell locations as well as vehicle/JFK movement down Elm St. could be determined; verified; and thereafter fixed.

The second full size plat also received the approximate same treatment, and although it too is pieced back together, there are a few pieces of it which are still "lost to history" in one of my multitudes of research document boxes.

Without the full size West Survey Plat, (WC Plat) & survey notes, one can not correlate that information gained from the other survey work in Dealy Plaza, just as one can not truly decipher the Drommer survey.

The Plat(s) & survey notes are an item of immense historical as well as "monetary" value, which were I to make copies and sale them would no doubt generate a few bucks or so for the old man's coffers.

Unfortunately, this information would also generate so much further confusion as a result of the claims of those who understand little in their regards, that the money is hardly worth the additional confusion and myths which this information would create in the hands of those who generally have made their living off the continuation of this garbage information.

One can not correlate the WC Survey Plat data without also being in possession of the other survey's as well as survey notes from all of this work.

Just as one can not determine the factual location of witnesses; the Presidential Limo; JFK; etc; etc; without also having available the excellent photograhs which are now available through the works of those such as Robin and a few others.

In the past, it has been a "Single" upstream effort on my part against a flowing river of pure garbage, in attempt to present for those who are not blinded by the refuse, some of the facts of the JFK assassination.

There are still those who are either financially committed, and or so "brain-dead" commited to their die-hard conspiracy theories, that full release of these documents would serve only to further confuse the issues.

Virtually all of the "EEI" (essential elements of information) have been released (at times repeatedly) on this forum.

It is unfortunate that much of this information had to be ultimately deleted in order to continue with posting of additonal information, but so goes the limitations of not allowing anyone person to continue to load the forum's abilities.

Most of that information, along with the survey plats; survey notes; and my research documents have now been re-boxed and re-stacked in storage buildings.

In fact, my soon-to-be Attorney son has been informed that due to my increasing age, if he wants any of this stuff/junk, that he had best make a trip down from Oklahoma and claim it.

Along with other miscellaneous items such as an "autographed" diving knife which APOLLO XIII Commander James Lovell signed and gave to me; dies to stamp the "Oklahoma Land Run Centennial" commemorative medallions (which cost $3,000.00)merely to produce the dies; about $20,000.00 or so in Silver & Gold Commemorative Medallions (base-metal value) which I have also kept for my two sons, along with his one-half of the 38-acres of land and ponds which I also own.

So, although I utilized the often misnomer of TEmptyPockets@aol.com, they remain empty as I do recognize the value of hanging on to items which have historical value and ultimate true value.

Moreso, as evidenced by the long ago discussion topic of what JFK Lancer was allowed (single/0ne-time publishing) to publish in regards to the altered survey data, I have no intentions of allowing the likes of some of those previously psuedo-researchers who publish garbage books relative to the assassination, to further contaminate the facts as well as make money off the works and knowledge which I ultimately spent at minimum some $25,000.00 of personal funds in gaining.

Those here who were present, got it for free in honor of Mr. West.

Other "bits" of the information are scattered over at Lancer; at the McAdams sight; within the files of former US Senator David Boren, and the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, as well as a few other locations which have been either point to, or alluded to on this forum.

Yep! I am that SNEAKY!

Exacly why was it that you did not recognize exacly why it was not that difficult for me to recognize the means and methods of "Specter; Hoover; Ford: Johnson: & Company"?

[John Dolva]

Ah ... Tom you make me laugh.

Either that or stand in the corner for a while.

However it happened, and you have posted much that has been helpful (and continue to do so).

Usually (for me) what you're getting at takes time to sink in, so the repetition is worthwhile. I can see that while using the curb sidewalk joints in the past to line up frames for composite panoramas, plus having built driveways and sidewalks during my misspent youth, there are definite specs re their placement, and a revisit with the spacing in mind is worth while.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Ah ... Tom you make me laugh.

Either that or stand in the corner for a while.

However it happened, and you have posted much that has been helpful (and continue to do so).

Usually (for me) what you're getting at takes time to sink in, so the repetition is worthwhile. I can see that while using the curb sidewalk joints in the past to line up frames for composite panoramas, plus having built driveways and sidewalks during my misspent youth, there are definite specs re their placement, and a revisit with the spacing in mind is worth while.

John;

As one person hear once stated, "I now have to re-learn everything".

Which although correct, still has it's own inherent error as if one "learned" incorrectly to begin with, then they actually did not learn.

As I indicated to you, it is not my intention to "re-cut" up the WC Survey Plat in order to make copies of it in a piecemeal fashion, as that is the only capabilty which I currently have.

I have learned that it is far too important an historical document for me to deface it (them) any further.

When the time is "right" I will possibly take it to my cousin (the County Surveyor here), who has the ability to make full size copies.

Or I may leave that to my son as he is most assuredly going to need a few bucks or so to pay for his law school costs.

Most embarassing to have a son who is a lawyer!

As to "repetetion"!

As a former "Instrutor Rating" with the JFK Center for Military Assistance, I am fully aware that repetition is the "key" to learning.

Unfortunately, here and elsewhere, one must repeat with one hand and continue to wipe the BS from the eyes of those who have actual interest in learning, with the other hand.

And, sometimes, one gets the impression that the BS is actually winning.

Hang in there, as just perhaps the "Fat Lady" is not through yelling yet!