Terry Mauro Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 John and Andy keep insisting that I am wrong. Their own media has been reporting on this euthanasia. This is involuntary "euthanasia". "Under the Liverpool Care Pathway, doctors can withdraw fluids and drugs from patients if they are deemed close to death. Many are then put on continuous sedation so they die free of pain." http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.dai...2GYO2qOUOMGfjYA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) I have worked for the NHS (Psych) for over twenty years, I have treated patients from their early teens, to their late eighties, and not once in that time has ONE Person been denied treatment because of age, cost or for any other reason. Some of the comments in this thread are insulting, and laughable at the same time, quite a feat. Just to be certain I understand, you claim the NHS does NOT deny treatment because of cost or age...EVER? Or is it your claim this only applies in PHYCH patients. The web is full of accounts of people being denied treatment by the NHS due to cost and age. Are they ALL false? Is hte Liverpool care pathway a falsehood as well? Craig, I can only speak for my own, extensive, experience. I hope this is clear. the web is also full of accounts of 911 being a government conspiracy, NASA faking the Moon missions, and the British Royal family being Space reptiles. Ok. So you want to debunk the reports by people in the UK of being denied treatments by the NHS and debunk that the Liverpool care pathway exists? I can accept that in the phych area, the NHS might not limit services, but the question is much broader than your limited area of practice, don't you think? The Liverpool Care Pathway exists but it is not what you represent it to be. Learn more about it here if that is what you wish to do http://www.mariecurie.org.uk/forhealthcare...carepathway.htm Palliative care and hospice care for the terminally ill in the UK is second to none worldwide in its excellence and humanity. Several of us here know this from personal experience and find you half baked idiot misinformed drivel about euthanasia and death panels grossly offensive. I'm sure you do find your system offensive, imagine doctors checking of some boxes on a form to decide if you live or die, and your wonderful NICE making decisions about your life or death care based on cost....a system that requires you pay for it even if you would prefer to forgo the limited services and CHOOSE to use another provider or insurance company. You simply can't refute the facts Andy so you resort to namecalling. Not that I midn, but lets call a spade a spade. You simply don't have a leg to stand i\on in this argument. You have done your work pimping for the NHS Andy, but your propaganda just wont pass muster when confronted with the facts. Edited September 21, 2009 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Mauro Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 John doesnt know what he is talking about. Listen to what Anton Chaitkin has to say on this British euthanasia program. Anton Chaitkin is a member of this forum as well as the author of "Treason in America" and the "Unauthorized Biography of George Bush.http://www.larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=11764 Terry you clearly know nothing and will learn nothing about the NHS from your weird cult. Instead try this link http://www.kented.org.uk/ngfl/subjects/his...39_achieve.html Weird cult? Here's the all time weird cult http://www.britishroyalwedding.com/wp-cont...11/royals-2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 John and Andy keep insisting that I am wrong. Their own media has been reporting on this euthanasia. This is involuntary "euthanasia"."Under the Liverpool Care Pathway, doctors can withdraw fluids and drugs from patients if they are deemed close to death. Many are then put on continuous sedation so they die free of pain." http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.dai...2GYO2qOUOMGfjYA You are wrong. You are confusing euthanasia with the recognised norms of hospice care. The latter you even have in the Bananna Republic of the USA - not sure it will be free as it is here to the good citizens of that nation however. http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/...ospice_Care.asp Perhaps you'd be better mobilised applying what mental energies you have to examining the motives of those who wish to discredit the UK NHS so blatantly and falsely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 John and Andy keep insisting that I am wrong. Their own media has been reporting on this euthanasia. This is involuntary "euthanasia"."Under the Liverpool Care Pathway, doctors can withdraw fluids and drugs from patients if they are deemed close to death. Many are then put on continuous sedation so they die free of pain." http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.dai...2GYO2qOUOMGfjYA You are wrong. You are confusing euthanasia with the recognised norms of hospice care. The latter you even have in the Bananna Republic of the USA - not sure it will be free as it is here to the good citizens of that nation however. http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/...ospice_Care.asp Perhaps you'd be better mobilised applying what mental energies you have to examining the motives of those who wish to discredit the UK NHS so blatantly and falsely. Another "educator"????? euthanasia : http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/euthanasia also : the act or practice of allowing a hopelessly sick or injured patient to die by taking less than complete medical measures to prolong life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia Euthanasia by means Euthanasia may be conducted passively, non-actively, and actively. Passive euthanasia entails the withholding of common treatments (such as antibiotics, chemotherapy in cancer, or surgery) or the distribution of a medication (such as morphine) to relieve pain, knowing that it may also result in death. http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/euthanasia The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment 1 also called mercy killing. the deliberate causing of the death of a person who is suffering from an incurable disease or condition. It may be active, such as by administration of a lethal drug, or passive, such as by withholding of treatment. Legal authorities, church leaders, philosophers, and commentators on ethics and morality usually distinguish passive euthanasia from active euthanasia. the act of facilitating death in a terminally ill patient, whether by deliberate activity, such as the administration of drugs that hasten death (known as active euthanasia), or passive, as in the withholding of life-extending treatment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 You have done your work pimping for the NHS Andy, but your propaganda just wont pass muster when confronted with the facts. Mr Lamson, in this matter, and many others, you wouldn't know a fact if it sat up and bit you on the arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Mauro Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) You have done your work pimping for the NHS Andy, but your propaganda just wont pass muster when confronted with the facts. Mr Lamson, in this matter, and many others, you wouldn't know a fact if it sat up and bit you on the arse. Instead of insults why don't you read the article? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-...rn-experts.html Prof Millard said yesterday: 'We're moving to a situation where we are discussing economic factors around older people's care. 'We're not discussing how we care for old people; we're just discussing how we pay for them.' He added: 'The Government is rolling out palliative care - which is helping people die happy. What we should be doing is rolling out support to help them to live. 'It's possible that what is going on could be seen as backdoor euthanasia.' The experts point to figures showing that 16.5 per cent of all deaths last year came after continuous sedation, in which patients are given sedative drugs 24 hours a day. The care pathway was originally developed for use in a Liverpool hospice, but since it was backed by the drugs rationing watchdog NICE in 2004, it has spread 'The Government is rolling out a new treatment pattern of palliative care into hospitals, nursing and residential homes. It is based on experience in a Liverpool hospice.' Edited September 21, 2009 by Terry Mauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) You have done your work pimping for the NHS Andy, but your propaganda just wont pass muster when confronted with the facts. Mr Lamson, in this matter, and many others, you wouldn't know a fact if it sat up and bit you on the arse. Still at a total loss in regards to defending your failed position I see Mr. Walker. What else is new? Edited September 21, 2009 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 You have done your work pimping for the NHS Andy, but your propaganda just wont pass muster when confronted with the facts. Mr Lamson, in this matter, and many others, you wouldn't know a fact if it sat up and bit you on the arse. Still at a total loss in regards to defending your failed position I see Mr. Walker. What else is new? Failed position??? The NHS delivers a far better quality of health care than is enjoyed in the USA by all reasonable and impartial international measures. The Far Right as represented by you is doing its best to rubbish a socialist approach to medicine , health and social care. At least be honest about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 You have done your work pimping for the NHS Andy, but your propaganda just wont pass muster when confronted with the facts. Mr Lamson, in this matter, and many others, you wouldn't know a fact if it sat up and bit you on the arse. Still at a total loss in regards to defending your failed position I see Mr. Walker. What else is new? Failed position??? The NHS delivers a far better quality of health care than is enjoyed in the USA by all reasonable and impartial international measures. The Far Right as represented by you is doing its best to rubbish a socialist approach to medicine , health and social care. At least be honest about it. Can you tell me how the numbers compare for people coming from outside the US for care in the US to the number of people coming from outside of the UK for care in the UK? If the UK was delevering a far better quality of health care, people would be flocking in from all over the wrold to use it. Is that the case? Cancer survival rates? Access to the latest medicines, treatments and tools? Responsivness? I've made NO bones about my total dislike of socialist ANYTHING, that has been made clear many times over. And yes your position is an epic FAIL. The NHS has death panels and practices euthanasia. At least be honest about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 And yes your position is an epic FAIL. The NHS has death panels and practices euthanasia. At least be honest about it. Keep repeating that big lie Craig - it is a tried and trusted propagandistic method - thus far you have T Mauro (intellectual of this parish) onside but I am sure that there is still hope Health spending as a share of GDP US 16% UK 8.4% Public spending on healthcare (% of total spending on healthcare) US 45% UK 82% Health spending per head US $7,290 UK $2,992 Practising physicians (per 1,000 people) US 2.4 UK 2.5 Nurses (per 1,000 people) US 10.6 UK 10.0 Acute care hospital beds (per 1,000 people) US 2.7 UK 2.6 Life expectancy: US 78 UK 80 Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births) US 6.7 UK 4.8 Source: WHO/OECD Health Data 2009 You're not getting good value there Craig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Mauro Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Andy believes himself to be some kind of refined intellectual and yet he couldnt locate the truth if he was given a road map. If you wish to learn about healthcare in the US - this video is a must see-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Andy believes himself to be some kind of refined intellectual and yet he couldnt locate the truth if he was given a road map. ah terry but what is truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Mauro Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 And yes your position is an epic FAIL. The NHS has death panels and practices euthanasia. At least be honest about it. Keep repeating that big lie Craig - it is a tried and trusted propagandistic method - thus far you have T Mauro (intellectual of this parish) onside but I am sure that there is still hope Health spending as a share of GDP US 16% UK 8.4% Public spending on healthcare (% of total spending on healthcare) US 45% UK 82% Health spending per head US $7,290 UK $2,992 Practising physicians (per 1,000 people) US 2.4 UK 2.5 Nurses (per 1,000 people) US 10.6 UK 10.0 Acute care hospital beds (per 1,000 people) US 2.7 UK 2.6 Life expectancy: US 78 UK 80 Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births) US 6.7 UK 4.8 Source: WHO/OECD Health Data 2009 You're not getting good value there Craig! How can you throw out these statistics without the acknowledgement that the US Healthcare system has undergone almost 30 years of looting under "managed care"? Brit, Simon Stevens of United Healthcare is one of the biggest thieves, stealing billions. Prior to his current role, Stevens served as chief executive officer of UnitedHealth Group's seniors' business, Ovations, the nation's largest and most diversified Medicare health plan serving one-in-five Medicare beneficiaries nationwide. Stevens' executive experience in health care spans twenty years of service, in hospitals, primary care and as a payer, in the private and public sectors, both in the U.S. and internationally where he served as British Prime Minister Tony Blair's health policy director at 10 Downing Street. Here he is helping us indentify $500 billion in savings This is the guy writing the Obama nazi healthcare policy. He wants a piece of that 16% of US GDP. He'd also like to help destroy the United States for the "Empire". http://www.uhc.com/news_room/2009_news_rel...ost_savings.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) And yes your position is an epic FAIL. The NHS has death panels and practices euthanasia. At least be honest about it. Keep repeating that big lie Craig - it is a tried and trusted propagandistic method - thus far you have T Mauro (intellectual of this parish) onside but I am sure that there is still hope Health spending as a share of GDP US 16% UK 8.4% Public spending on healthcare (% of total spending on healthcare) US 45% UK 82% Health spending per head US $7,290 UK $2,992 Practising physicians (per 1,000 people) US 2.4 UK 2.5 Nurses (per 1,000 people) US 10.6 UK 10.0 Acute care hospital beds (per 1,000 people) US 2.7 UK 2.6 Life expectancy: US 78 UK 80 Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births) US 6.7 UK 4.8 Source: WHO/OECD Health Data 2009 You're not getting good value there Craig! Nice stats, are they apples to apples? For example. Do the dollar figures consider differences in price, volume and quality of medical goods and services consumed. Does life expectancy account for cultural or immigrant differences? Are the differences actually do to better care or different lifestyle choices? Are all "live births" and still births defined by the same criteria? BTW, where is the one showing the massive influx of people frooutside the UK flocking to the UK for your "superior" healthcare? That one too tough for you? But hten again we all know there are lies, damn lies and statistics...... Now, lets see how honest old Andy is. He says there are no death panels and no euthanasia in the NHS. Fact: In the NHS, doctors decide when to "pull the plug on Granny", which is in fact a death panel AND euthaasia. Old dishonest Andy can't refute this fact. Fact: NICE decides who will get what treatment and drugs, causing potential life extending or life saving treatment from reaching ill patients. This also constitutes a death panel. Old dishonest Andy can't refute this fact.[/color] When it comes to healthcare in America we are getting GREAT value. That value it FREEDOM. That value is call personal CHOICE. Something you socialists know little about. Our government does don't force wage control on heatlhcare workers adding greatly to the value we receive. But most importantly we don't have the government, highly corrupt and woefully inept, running 16% of our economy and our health care choices. Here is a life lesson for you Andy...FREEDOM is never FREE. And I'll take FREEDOM any day. Edited September 21, 2009 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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