Were the number of those killed in the Holocaust Exaggerated?

[Len Colby]

On the ‘JFK Assassination Research--and a public relations disaster’ thread Jim Fetzer wrote, “I am not a Holocaust denier (even though I'm inclined to believe the numbers killed have been exaggerated).”

http://educationforu...st=495&p=225498

post #502

I found that to be an extraordinary comment. The Holocaust was one of the most studied events in history. Several reputable scholars have dedicated all or most of their careers to studying it and despite using different methods they have reached similar conclusions 5 – 6 Jews and a similar number non-Jews (or in one case 11 million Gentiles). For example:

Martin Gilbert [at least 5.75 million Jews “and at least an equal number of non-Jews”] http://books.google....jt4hkC&pg=PA245 pgs 11, 245

Lucy Dawidowicz [5.93 million Jews] http://www.amazon.co...ader_055334532X pg 403

Niewyk and Nicosia [“more than 5 million Jews…as many as 17 million victims” i.e. about 11 million non Jews] http://books.google....UklB2MC&pg=PA45 pg 45

Wolfgang Benz [5.29–6.2 million Jews] http://books.google....B22IlIC&pg=PA66 p66

Berenbaum[5 million non-Jews] http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/1850432511 , http://lincolnwood.s...tors-focus.html

See also:

Israel Gutman. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust [5.59–5.86 million Jews]

Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews [5.1 million Jews]

So perhaps Prof. Fetzer, or anyone else who feels the same way, would be so kind as to tell us the basis for suspecting “the numbers killed have been exaggerated”.

[Steve Knight]

One would suspect, rather than being exaggerated, the actual numbers involved would be under-reported, because of the nature of the killings, and disposal afterwards.

Ditto with the Russians figures of murdering their own, both during and after the war.

[John Dolva]

One would suspect, rather than being exaggerated, the actual numbers involved would be under-reported, because of the nature of the killings, and disposal afterwards.

Ditto with the Russians figures of murdering their own, both during and after the war.

Ah yes, the soviets, union of socialist republics. A pretty big and diverse place. Complex. Not at all a one liner.

I don''t hink there is any reason to adhere to holocaust denial except as a means to an end. To my mind, an evil one.

[John Simkin]

I found that to be an extraordinary comment. The Holocaust was one of the most studied events in history. Several reputable scholars have dedicated all or most of their careers to studying it and despite using different methods they have reached similar conclusions 5 – 6 Jews and a similar number non-Jews (or in one case 11 million Gentiles).

I agree with this total. However, A.J.P. Taylor, once argued that the Nazis actually killed more Communists than Jews but that it is rarely put that way.

[John Dolva]

Absolutely, John.

The early pivotal opposition to the NAZIS were the communists in Germany and they were disposed of.

Hitler had already stated in Mein Kamph that ultimately an attack on the Bolchevics is paramount.

The initial order to the death squads following the Wermacht into the USSR was for the liquidation of Bolchevics and their sympathisers and this was after the failure of the Japanese go- northists in their eastern attack on the USSR.

[Len Colby]

I found that to be an extraordinary comment. The Holocaust was one of the most studied events in history. Several reputable scholars have dedicated all or most of their careers to studying it and despite using different methods they have reached similar conclusions 5 – 6 Jews and a similar number non-Jews (or in one case 11 million Gentiles).

I agree with this total. However, A.J.P. Taylor, once argued that the Nazis actually killed more Communists than Jews but that it is rarely put that way.

I don't see how that could be unless you count battlefield deaths. The lowest estimate I know of for Jews killed is Hilberg's 5.1 million, The Highest estimate for non-Jews I've see is Niewyk and Nicosia's 11-12 million. Most historians say 4 - 6 million Gentiles were murdered. But even using the extreme estimates we have to assume almost have of the gentiles killed were Communists. lets not forget that by most accounts at least 500,000 Roma (Gypsies) were murdered.

[Len Colby]

I assume that most members of this forum view Holocaust denial as idiotic if not distasteful but a POV that is protected free speech. Dr. however seems to think it is admirable. In his letter to editor of Isis he wrote:

"Nick [Kollerstrom] is one of the few academicians I know who has the courage, the mentality, and the integrity to assume the role of a public intellectual, not only relative to 7/7 and 9/11 but also by pursuing scientific questions concerning the history of the Holocaust"

What he failed to mention (presumably due to ignorance) is that Kollerstrom's "research" is limited to repeating the claims of Holocaust deniers without mentioning rebuttals. Indicating he (Kollerstom) is either a fraud or incompetent (or both).

[Pat Speer]

I assume that most members of this forum view Holocaust denial as idiotic if not distasteful but a POV that is protected free speech. Dr. however seems to think it is admirable. In his letter to editor of Isis he wrote:

"Nick [Kollerstrom] is one of the few academicians I know who has the courage, the mentality, and the integrity to assume the role of a public intellectual, not only relative to 7/7 and 9/11 but also by pursuing scientific questions concerning the history of the Holocaust"

What he failed to mention (presumably due to ignorance) is that Kollerstrom's "research" is limited to repeating the claims of Holocaust deniers without mentioning rebuttals. Indicating he (Kollerstom) is either a fraud or incompetent (or both).

In my early teens I had a schoolmate gravitate toward me, and try to convince me the holocaust was a hoax. We spent a few weeks talking about it, off and on, and I gradually began to realize he'd singled me out because my last name is Speer. Eventually, I stopped him in his tracks with a simple question: "what difference does it make if "ONLY" two million Jews were killed, and they claim 6? It's not as if you'd care if it turned out that ONLY 4 million people were killed by Stalin, or Mao..." This led him to try to explain why the lie about the holocaust was so important--because it was a gateway to understanding ALL THE OTHER JEWISH LIES.

A few weeks later there was a near-race riot in our school. All the lockers were searched for weapons. They found two, if I recall: a switchblade in the locker of a bully, and a German MACHINE GUN in Jim's locker. I never saw him again.

Now, whenever I run into a holocaust denier, I ask him the same "So what?" question, and inevitably receive the same answer. I have yet to meet someone convinced the numbers are grossly exaggerated, or that there was a hoax, who wasn't suspicious of Jews to begin with.

[Douglas Caddy]

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/