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Pat Speer

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  1. Sorry. When I wrote "that Robert Morrow" I should have specified "THAT Robert Morrow." There are two. The one claimed to have known David Ferrie, etc, and the other one was a forum member who ended up writing a book with Roger Stone. The first Robert Morrow is long-deceased.
  2. I believe that Robert Morrow is long deceased.
  3. I suspect you already know this, but this very issue was one of the reasons I created my website. I made the decision to read through ALL the eyewitness evidence. This led me to realize that the first shot absolutely positively hit Kennedy, and that the first shot miss myth spread by Lattimer, Posner and Myers, etc (and accepted by most everyone) was a hoax. So I started accumulating all the witness statements by location dnd chronology...and this led to an even more startling conclusion--that the last shot (or sound) absolutely positively failed to hit anyone. From pats peer.com, Chapter 2:
  4. Holy moly. It's not all that complicated. Moorman and Hill were chatting away and didn't pay attention to JFK until he was right upon them. Moorman, who'd taken other Polaroids that day, and who'd taken one of a DPD officer as he rode by, then took her picture of JFK...just as one or more shots rang out. This was the fatal headshot. She then heard one or more shots AFTER this shot. Hill said the same--that the first shot was the head shot, and that shots came after. Charles Brehm, Emmett Hudson, and Malcolm Summers, standing nearby, also heard one or more shots after the headshot. IOW, the closest witnesses were quite consistent in that a shot was fired after the headshot. The evidence for this is all over my website. But here, in short, is Moorman, and her earliest statements: Mary Moorman was on the south side of Elm across from the Newmans, and to the east of Toni Foster. She can be seen in the Zapruder film, Nix film, and Muchmore film, as well as stills such as the Bond photo. She took a picture of Kennedy a split second after the impact of the head shot. (11-22-63 article in the Dallas-Times Herald) "“A Dallas woman snapped a candid picture of President Kennedy—then heard the scream, ‘My God, he’s been shot.’ The Polaroid snapshot taken by Mary Moorman, 2832 Ripplewood, shows the President of the United States slumped over the seat of his limousine. His young wife was leaning toward him" (11-22-63 article in the Dallas Times-Herald) "Mrs. Moorman, who snapped a picture just at the time the President was shot, and said: 'I took the picture exactly at the moment the shot rang out. My Polaroid shows Kennedy slumped over in the car and it shows Jackie leaning towards him. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say 'My God, he's been shot.' I heard another shot or two and I turned to my friend and we got on the ground.'" (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H487, 24H217) “As President Kennedy was opposite me, I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and said “My God, he has been shot!” When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all.” (3:16 PM 11-22-63 WBAP TV interview, available on Youtube) (When asked why she took the photo at that moment) “That was the only chance I had. Mine is a Polaroid and I can only take one every ten seconds, and that was at that time, whenever I took it. (When asked if she'd realized he'd been shot when she took the picture) "No I didn't. I must have snapped it immediately when he slumped, cause in the picture that’s the way she’s there and he’s slumped over.” (When asked if she'd seen the shooter) "No, I had taken the picture. And then the shots. And I decided it was time to fall on the ground." (3:30 PM 11-22-63 KRLD radio interview, as transcribed by David Lifton and posted on the Education Forum, 6-30-11, with a few changes) (When asked if she took her Polaroid picture before or after the first shot) “Evidently, just immediately, as the… Cause he was, he was looking, you know, whenever I got the camera focused and then I snapped it in my picture, he slumped over.” (When asked how far away she was from Kennedy at this time) “10 or 15 foot. I know 'cause that's where I had my camera set.” (When asked where she was standing) “Just a few feet from the underpass" (When asked if she was by the grassy bank) "Yes, that's where we were and I stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.” (When asked if she saw any suspicious persons) "Yeah, of course, I have, I was just uh you know (unclear word) my camera, and when I took that the shots had rang out, and I wasn’t looking around. I hit the ground." (When asked how many shots she heard) “Oh, oh, I don’t know. I think three or four is what I, uh, that I heard…that I’m sure of. Now, I don’t know, there might have been more. It just took seconds for me to realize what was happening. (When asked her first thought) “That those are shots--and that he has been hit. And that they're liable to hit me 'cause I'm right at the car. So I decided that the place for me was to just get on the ground. (When asked Kennedy's response) He grabbed his chest, and, of course, Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately and fell over him, and she said “My God, he’s been shot.” (When asked the reactions of others) “Uh, they hesitated just for a moment ‘cause I think they were like I was, you know—'Was that a shot or was it just a backfire, or just what?' And then, of course, he clutched his chest and they immediately sped up, real fast, you know, like to get out of there. And, uh the police, there were several motorcycles around him, and uh, they stopped, and uh—one or two must have went with him. And one ran up the hill, and a friend that was with me ran up the hill across the street, from where the shots came from.” (When asked if the shots sounded loud) "Yes, they did. Just like a firecracker going off right at the car." (When asked if they seemed close by) "Yes, uh huh." (When asked where the shots came from) “Oh, just right there at you.” (When asked if this meant the shots were fired toward her) “Yes, sir... The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might have been a firecracker right there in that car.” (When asked again if her picture was taken before the shot) “Evidently, at the minute that is, that it hit him because, uh, he was, he was looking, at me, or I mean, he was looking, you know, at the people when my picture came out. They just, just slumped over, so I must have got it. (words, unintelligible).” (When asked if this is shown in her picture) “Yes, uh huh. You could tell he’s clutched. He’s bent over, and she’s…and she hadn’t even gotten up in my picture, and she did get up, stood up, in the car.” (11-22-63 WFAA TV interview, during the evening, many hours after the shooting, as quoted in Pictures of the Pain) “My picture when I took it was at the same instant that the President was hit, and that does show in my picture…it shows the President, uh, he slumped, Jackie Kennedy was leaning towards him to see, I guess. It all happened so suddenly, I don’t think anyone realized, you know, what had happened.” (About the shots) “There was three or four real close together, and it must have been the first one that shot him, ‘cause that was the time I took the picture, and during that time after I took the picture, and the shots were still being fired, I decided I better get on the ground...I was no more than 15 foot from the car, and in the line of fire, evidently.” (When asked if Mrs. Kennedy screamed after the first shot) "I don't know about the first shot, but she did scream. She says 'My God, he's been hit' or 'He's been shot!'" (When asked if he fell in her arms) "No, I think he just slumped into the seat. She jumped up over him." (11-23-63 FBI, report based upon an 11-22-63 interview, 22H838) “She took a second photograph of the President as his automobile passed her, and just as she snapped the picture, she heard what she first thought was a firecracker and very shortly thereafter heard another similar sound which she later determined to have been gunfire. She knows that she heard two shots and possibly a third shot. She recalls seeing the President sort of “jump” and start to slump sideways in the seat, and seems to recall President Kennedy’s wife scream “My God, he’s been shot!...She recalls that the President’s car was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry.”
  5. To get the thread back on track, I'd like to interject that I just saw the tail end of a CNN special on QAnon, and it showed Kennedy in a quick montage of QAnon crazies. So, yikes, it appears that CNN has jumped on the bandwagon of linking the JFK research community with QAnon. Did anyone see the whole program? Did it, in fact, trace QAnon back to the JFK research community?
  6. I guess I agree with Armstrong then. When I went back and looked at this a few years back, it became quite clear that Adams and Styles raced downstairs and came across Shelley and Lovelady entering from the west side. Her saying her testimony was changed was, in my opinion, a defense mechanism begun as a reaction to the actions of Ball and Belin, who told her Shelley and Lovelady failed to return for 5 minutes or so after the shooting. This was a lie. I firmly believe, moreover, that Ball and Belin knew this was a lie. They never asked Shelley and Lovelady if they saw Truly and Baker when they (S and L) came back in through the west side. And this even though Baker swore he saw two white men at the back of the building when he was standing by the elevators. When you read through all the statements it's clear these two were S and L.
  7. The woman describing the short-barreled weapon was Carolyn Walther. From patspeer.com, chapter 5a: Mrs. Carolyn Walther (12-5-63 FBI report, 24H522) "Mrs. ERIC (CAROLYN) WALTHER...and another employee, Mrs. Pearl Stringer, ate lunch at 12:00 noon and left the lunch room at about 12:20 PM to go down on the street to see President KENNEDY ride by. They walked out of the front door of the building, crossed the street, and stopped at a point on the east side of Houston Street, about fifty or sixty feet south of the south curb of Elm Street. They stopped next to the curb to await the passing of the President. While standing there, she started looking around, and looked over toward the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building. She noticed a man wearing a brown suit and a very dark shirt leaning out a window of the third floor, somewhere about the middle window of the third floor. Shortly after this, a man in the crowd across the street to the west of where she was standing apparently had an epileptic seizure, and an ambulance came by and took the man away. Shortly after the ambulance left, she looked back towards the TSBD Building and saw a man standing on either the fourth of fifth floors, of the window on the south side of the building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man had the window open and was standing up leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this man was holding a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man was looking south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt and had blond or light brown hair. She recalled at the time that she had not noticed the man there a few moments previously when she looked toward the building and thought that apparently there were guards everywhere. The rifle had a short barrel and seemed large around the stock or end of the rifle. Her impression was that the gun was a machine gun. She noticed nothing like a telescope sight on the rifle or a leather strap or sling on the rifle. She said she knows nothing about rifles or guns of any type, but thought that the rifle was different from any she had ever seen. This man was standing in about the middle of the window. In this same window, to the left of this man, she could see a portion of another man standing by the side of the man with a rifle. This other man was standing erect, and his head was above the opened portion of the window. As the window was very dirty, she could not see the head of this second man. She is positive this window was not as high as the sixth floor. This second man was apparently wearing a brown suit coat, and the only thing she could see was the right side of the man, from about the waist to the shoulders. Almost immediately after noticing this man with the rifle and the other man standing beside him, someone in the crowd said "Here they come." and she looked to her left, looking south on Houston Street, to see the Presidential Party. As soon as President KENNEDY's car passed where she was standing, she and Mrs. SPRINGER turned away and started walking north towards Elm Street. At about the time they reached the curb at Elm Street, she heard a loud report and thought it was fireworks. There was a pause after the first report, then a second and third report almost at the same time, and then a pause followed by at least one and possibly more reports. The noise seemed to come from up in the air, but she never looked up in that direction. When the second report sounded, she decided it was gunfire, so she and Mrs. SPRINGER started diagonally across the street toward the TSBD Building. About the time she got across the street, she heard someone yell that the president had been hit. She stopped a moment and listened to the police radio on a motorcycle, then returned to the building across the street where she works. She returned to her job at about 12:45 PM." (Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers and Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) "I was standing on Houston Street behind the Records Building about twelve feet from the intersection of Elm...I looked up at this building and there was a man and I thought he was in the fourth or fifth-floor window, and he had a gun, and he was holding it. He was pointing the gun down...I saw this man in the window and he had a gun in his hands, pointed downward. The man evidently was in a kneeling position because his forearms were resting on the window sill. There was another man that was standing beside him but I only saw a portion of his body...He was standing partly against...uh, behind the window. You know, only halfway in the window, and the window was dirty and I couldn't see his face up above where the window was pushed up." (When asked how long she watched this man) "Only a few seconds. It startled me, and...then I thought, Well, they probably have guards in all the buildings, so...I...didn't say anything. and just right away someone said, 'Here they come.' And I looked the other way and evidently the car, the first car, was just turning the block from Main Street, down on Houston, and it was a few seconds before the cars came back, before they passed me." (On what happened after they passed) "I heard one shot, and I thought at the time the first shot was a firecracker, and after the last car passed me I started walking back to work, and I had reached the curb, and two more shots, and then a second--two seconds later, one more. It wasn't as loud as the others. But the second and third shots were right together, and then I thought 'Oh, it's gunshots'" (When asked again about the men in the window) "The man that was holding the gun was partially leaning out, just slightly, and he had his forearms on the window and it was not a long rifle. This was a short gun. Not a pistol. I had never seen one like it. The other man was standing beside him, but I could only see a part of his face, and he was dressed in brown...A brown suitcoat was all I could see. Just about this portion. And it didn't look like boxes...(When asked what she meant by the last comment about the boxes) "Well, an agent from the FBI asked me if I thought what I had seen was boxes. And it was not boxes...I did not see any boxes in the building. I saw no boxes at all in the building." (When asked if the FBI seemed interested in what she was saying) "Well, they were interested in if I could identify Oswald and...uh, they were not interested in the other man in the window." (When asked if she could ID Oswald) "No, I could not. Definitely not.." (When asked how many shots she recalled being fired) "I definitely feel that I heard four shots." (When asked why saw was reluctant to talk about the shooting) "It was a terrible thing...if I could have identified the person I would have been glad to have, you know, done so, right away. But since I couldn't and I would not say it was Oswald...I'm not sure." (When asked if she was certain she saw two men in the window) "There's no doubt in my mind there were two men in the window." (Interview with CBS broadcast 6-25-67) (On the men she saw before the shooting) "I looked at this building and I saw this man with a gun, and there was another man standing to his right. And I could not see all of this man, and I couldn't see his face. And the other man was holding a short gun. It wasn't as long as a rifle. And he was holding it pointed down, and he was kneeling in the window, or sitting. His arms were on the window. And he was holding the gun in a downward position, and he was looking downward." (When asked which window this was) "The first statement that I made, I said the man was on the fourth or fifth floor, and I still feel the same way. He was about -- in a window that was just about even with the top of that tree. I saw the man had light hair, or brown, and was wearing a white shirt. That -- I explained to the F.B.I. agents that I wasn't sure about that. That was my impression on thinking about it later. That I thought that was the way the man was dressed." (When asked about the other man) "This other man was wearing a brown suit. And that was all I could see, was half of this man's body, from his shoulders to his hips. (On the shooting) “The President passed us, and he was smiling, and everybody was waving. Then the last of the cars went by, and I heard the shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then I started back to work, and it was along the curb, and then two shots right together, and then another one. I'm sure there were four shots.” (3-27-68 interview with Barry Ernest recounted in The Girl on the Stairs, published 2011) "Mrs. Walther said she 'heard four shots. And right after the last shot I saw this police officer drop his motorcycle and immediately run into the Depository.' Marrion Baker. She described the sounds as having a definite pause between the first and second shots, then the second and third shots sounded like they were fired 'at the same time.' After that there was another slight pause, and then she heard a fourth shot." (Report on an 8-8-68 interview with Tom Bethel and Al Oser, investigators working on behalf New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison) "Mrs. Walther... repeated essentially the same story as she told the FBI and also told CBS in their special last July... She was standing on the west side of Houston Street and just before the motorcade arrived looked up at the Book Depository and saw two men in an upper floor window of the Book Depository, one of whom was holding a rifle which she described as being considerably shorter than the rifle which Oswald owned and fatter. The second man she couldn't make out any details about as he was standing back from the window a little bit but she emphasized that she's quite certain that this was a man and not, as the FBI had suggested to her, boxes... The man carrying the gun was blonde or light haired and she said that she thinks he was wearing a white shirt, and the other man was wearing a brown suit... Mrs. Walther, at the time of the first shot, was standing in front of the Records Building on Houston Street at the curb. She heard the first shot which she thought was a firecracker. Then she proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets, going back to the Dal-Tex Building. As she was stepping off the curb onto Elm Street, she heard a second and third report. She proceeded to the middle of Elm Street, and while in the street, she heard a fourth shot. The fourth shot she stated appeared to be a more muffled and lower sounds opposed to the other three. She then turned and proceeded in the middle of Elm Street to the grassy knoll. She stated that she proceeded this way because everyone seemed to be running towards the grassy knoll area." (2-14-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) (When asked where she was standing) "I was on Houston just off the corner of Elm by the Records Building." (When asked what she saw when she looked at the school book depository) "The first time I looked I saw a man I think in a maroon shirt in the center of the building stand up and later on I saw two men in another building (sic--she means window) and one was holding a gun and the other was standing beside him...The man wearing the gun, I think, was wearing a white shirt, I'm not sure." (When asked how the other man was dressed) "A brown suit coat." (When asked how many shots she heard) “All together I heard four” (When asked what the first one sounded like) “It was a loud popping sound and I thought it was just a firecracker…the last car was passing in front of me when I heard the first shot…The second one I was just stepping off the curb. “ (And the third?) “Almost to the center of the street.” (And fourth?) “In the center of the street.” (And how did they sound? The second? ) “It sounded just like the first one.” (The third?) “The same” (And fourth?) “A little lower…I stopped and said "That is gunshots." (When asked from where she thought these shots were fired) "Somewhere from my right, possibly to the front right." (When asked if that included the depository) "Yes, sir." (11-19-78 article in The Dallas Morning News) "Standing a few feet from Mrs. Henderson was Mrs. Carolyn Walther, a fellow worker at a dress factory across the street from the book depository. Mrs. Walther looked up at about the same time and also saw two men in an upper-floor window of the depository. One was holding a gun, she said. The gunman was wearing a dark brown suit and the other man had on a light-colored shirt or jacket, she said. Later the FBI 'tried to make me think that what I saw were boxes,' Mrs. Walther said. 'They were going to set out to prove me a xxxx and I had no intention of arguing with them and being harassed,' she said. 'I felt like I told them all I knew.'" (July-August 1988 interview recounted in American History Illustrated, November 1988) "I had gone out on the street about twenty after twelve...I glanced up at the Depository Building. There were two men in the corner window on the fourth or fifth floor. One man was wearing a white shirt and had blond or light brown hair. This man had the window open. His hands were extended outside the window. He held a rifle with the barrel pointed downward. I thought he was some kind of guard. In the same window, right near him, was a man in a brown coat suit. Then the President's car came by. I heard a gunshot. People ran. Like a fool, I just stood there. I saw people down. I walked toward them, with the thought maybe they were hurt and I could help them. People were running toward the grassy knoll...In all, I heard four shots."
  8. I looked into this a bunch a couple of years back, and present what I discovered in Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. While Worrell claimed he saw someone run out of the back of the building, the WC countered this with the testimony of James Romack, who said he watched the back of the building for minutes after the shots. There was huge hole in Romack's testimony, however. He didn't recall seeing Vickie Adams and Sandy Styles run out of the back of the building. Well, if he missed two cute chicks running out of the building within a minute or two of the shooting, it follows that he could have missed some nondescript guy running out of the back of the building. FWIW, here's a map of the Houston loading dock. Note that there are two sets of steps from the dock--one that leads down into the area where the trucks park, and one that leads directly out onto Houston. I suspect Romack was watching the door from the middle of the dock and not paying much attention to the stairs leading the other way.
  9. 1. I received something like 3 vaccinations as a child. My son received as I recall 15 by the time he was 5. It was clear by that time, moreover, that he was on the autism spectrum. This led me to read dozens of reports and articles on vaccinations, and conclude that yes, all the evidence isn't in, but what we do know suggests they are beneficial, and that there's a whole heap of other explanations for the autism explosion. 2. The vaccine I was referring to was the coronavirus vaccine/vaccines. My friend who's been sucked under the tide believes the libs exaggerated the negative effects of, and even helped spread, the coronavirus to hurt Donnie T, and swears she won't get a vaccine no matter what.
  10. That makes sense. I thought Oliver was the producer as well. FWIW, when I worked in the record business my boss stole millions out of the company to impress his new wife--who wanted be an actress. She wrote a musical (starring her) about how she came to fall in love with him (my boss) and hired some C-level Hollywood types to film it. It turned out to be one of the worst films ever made. And yet they still took it to Cannes and rented a Palais to give it a Cannes premiere. As I recall they got like one distribution deal--from Mongolia or some such thing. In any event, I hope Oliver's film doesn't end up being like Mark Sobel's film on the Warren Commission, starring Martin Sheen, Sam Waterston, Martin Landau, Corbin Bernsen, Joe Don Baker, Edward Asner, etc. Mark kept holding out for a big-name distributor. Tick-tock. Tick-tock. 17 years later.
  11. Let's be clear. While there are a number of crap documentaries on the assassination available for rental or viewing on Amazon Prime, Netflix is much more conservative as to what they make available. I assume this comes as a result of their business models. In any event, I suspect what's holding up the release of Oliver's film is not that neither Netflix nor Amazon will make his film available for rental (where he gets paid per rental) but that neither of them is interested in buying the exclusive rights to his film, for which I suspect he is asking a pretty penny. Thus, the showcase at Cannes, which reeks of "Someone give me some money, please." Seeing as the vast majority of docs on the assassination produced over the past 7 years have failed to receive much interest I suspect he's in for some disappointment.
  12. Yep. I have a friend who got sucked under the tide, and has come to believe the vaccines are a hoax, etc. The irony is that she now showers me with praise, seeing as I was onto this deep-state stuff long before anyone else she knows. Screw that.
  13. Just thinking out loud... Are Horne's and Mantik's theories on the medical evidence central to the documentary? Because, no matter how one feels about their theories, it's easy to see how a major network or distributor would shy away from a program claiming that JFK's body was altered, etc. And there's a simple reason for this. One phone call from a network or distributor to a Baden or wanna-be Baden would lead them to back off. Guaranteed. I mean, I've read a couple of dozen books on forensic pathology. And probably half of these have a reference to the Kennedy assassination. And nearly all of these refer back to Baden, or Spitz, and ignore Mantik and Horne completely. I mean, let's face facts. Most networks and/or distributors have gatekeepers--people they consider experts on certain topics with whom they consult as to what is a worthy avenue of investigation. And none of the gatekeepers currently in place will go near body alteration with a ten-foot pole.
  14. The three-wheeler in Paschall was driven by D.V. Harkness, as I recall. He was stationed at Houston and Main. started to run across the plaza after the shots, ran back to his trike, and then raced down Main under the overpass. He then drove back the wrong way on Elm to the knoll (as I recall it was on the sidewalk). In any event, he was then approached by Amos Euins, after which he gave Euins a ride on the trike down to the depository, where Euins was questioned further, and then later escorted to the Sheriff's office. Here is a shot of Harkness with Euins, as they turned north on Houston from Elm.
  15. I don't remember all the details, but I remember that several DPD sources claimed the three-wheeler was not even in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting, As I recall, moreover, they said one could hear the President's limo and accompanying sirens pass by the three-wheeler on one part of the tape, which would make no sense should the tape have been recorded off McLain's bike, which was following the limo at a distance.
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