Cold Case JFK on NOVA on 11/13/2013

[Pat Speer]

My comments in blue:

I thought the science in this show was very good. They show the stability of the bullet and how it travels thru matter. They were able to give a reasoned explanation for the path of the tumbling bullet . And how the bullet does not deform.

But they cherry-picked the facts and ignored others. They show a bullet hole thru JFKs jacket about 4 inches below the collar, but then use a diagram with a bullet hole up at the base of the neck.

This is a highly controversial area, Brian -- not least of all at this forum -- but bear in mind that even many on the conspiracy side of the fence acknowledge that there is considerable photographic evidence that the President's shirt and jacket were bunched up at the time of the shot, skewing the placement of the holes in the shirt and jacket. See for example this article by Warren Commission critic John Hunt:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched.htm

Of course, only the jacket can be seen in the photos, but since the holes are aligned in the shirt and jacket, the shirt must have moved along with the jacket. I noticed that the computer modeling in the show ignored this issue.

Note also that the dimensions of JFK's back were a little unusual (see the URL below), which may also skew our expectations of where the holes in the clothing should be. Some have suggested that the cortisone shots he regularly received may have contributed to this.

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk-back.jpg

You can see this in more common pictures of him, but it's not as obvious when he's clothed:

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk-soldiers-white-house.jpg

They say there is about 1.6 seconds between JFKs reaction and Connelly's reaction, but then do not account for that time difference in their SBT diagram.

I'm just going from memory, but I think they said that there is a difference between the time JFK can be observed reacting (Z225) and the time it becomes obvious that Connally is reacting (circa Z230-240), something to that effect, which was one of the reasons the SBT was investigated by the WC. I was surprised NOVA didn't note any of the evidence that Connally reacts earlier than this, beginning in Z225. Check out these images:

http://www.jfk-online.com/224-225-Full.gif

http://www.jfk-online.com/225-226-Full.gif

My page on the SBT has a little more about this:

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbth.html

At one point, they talk about bullet yaw on the SBT theory and show the bullet going straight to hit Connelly. Then in the next segment, they say that obviously, a bullet will change direction when it begins to yaw after hitting the skull. Which is it or why is it different?

Because the impact on the skull caused the bullet of the head shot to deform, which caused it to change direction, but the SBT impact on Kennedy's skin did not cause CE 399 to deform or change direction.

Overall, it was disappointing. The science was good. But if you use good science on the flawed Warren Comm facts and drawings as evidence, then you prove nothing.

The Discovery Channel conducted some SBT experiments of a similar nature a few years back, and had very similar results in terms of the tumbling of the bullet, the trajectory, etc. David Von Pein has it on his YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-5xfTKqf1A&feature=youtu.be

John Lattimer also conducted some experiments of this kind years earlier, and published the results in his book, KENNEDY AND LINCOLN.

The Discovery Channel did a program on experiments involving the head shot, called INSIDE THE TARGET CAR. It's also on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e246B581jHo&feature=youtu.be

Experimental data like this can't prove what happened in Dealey Plaza, but it can show what is possible, what is plausible, and what is likely. I think that experiments like these have shown that the SBT is at least plausible, if not likely. I also thought NOVA's explanation about the fracture patterns on the head X-rays lent credence to the head shot being from the rear.

The show is bound to cause some controversy among LNs, however, by supporting the minority opinion that the entry wound was located where the three autopsy pathologists placed it in 1963, and not higher up on the head, as the Clark Panel and HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel placed it. Researcher John Canal recently authored an article explaining the evidence for this:

http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2013/09/canal.html

I've previously been on the side of the Clark Panel and HSCA, but now I'm not so sure.

Dave

The section on the show about the SBT was just terrible.

1. They claimed the controversy about the SBT was all about what happens after the bullet leaves Kennedy's neck, and had to do with tumbling and bullet deformation, etc. This was a lie. The main problem with the SBT--from the very beginning--was the vertical trajectory. The back wound didn't align with Connally's armpit and the throat wound. The creators of the animation dealt with this by pretending it wasn't a problem, and showing a bullet enter the back of Kennedy's neck where they knew it didn't enter.

2. They claimed three feet separated Kennedy and Connally. This was another lie. The HSCA determined it to be two feet. It seems possible then, that they could get the bullet to tumble sideways at three feet but not at two, and just lied about it.

3. They claimed the sideways entrance of the bullet at three feet matched the holes in Connally's jacket. This was another lie. A sideways entrance has a ratio of about 4 to 1. The entrance on the jacket was 1.7 by 1.2, less oblong even than the entrance on Kennedy's jacket, 1.5 by 1.

When you find a series of such lies it's not unreasonable to suspect the people telling these lies are liars, and not just mistaken.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

I took some notes on the show while I watched it on my Tivo.

November 13: NOVA: “Cold Case JFK” premieres on PBS. The Koch brothers are among those funding this program. I wonder if they had any influence on its content. Luke and Michael Haag, the father and son firearms team featured on CBS a few days before, are the chief experts on the program. Mainstream researchers who lean toward conspiracy like Josiah Thompson, Robert Blakey and Jefferson Morley are used as talking heads, and essentially as window-dressing. Clint Hill is dragged out as well. The program's use of John McAdams is also illuminating. Whenever they need someone to fill in a part of the story, there's John. Now, this wouldn't be so bad if they didn't let him make stuff up. To explain the botched autopsy, McAdams spews: "The whole Kennedy entourage does not understand the distinction between just an autopsy and a forensic autopsy." (Oh, really? Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States, doesn't know what the word "forensic" means?) He then mocks the Kennedy family (chiefly Mrs. Kennedy) for choosing to have the autopsy performed at Bethesda Naval Hospital. He either doesn't know or doesn't care that the president's doctor, Admiral Burkley, gave her the choice between Walter Reed, an Army Hospital, and Bethesda, and that she was offered no alternative. The program then introduces Vincent J.M. DiMaio to further comment upon the competence of the autopsy. Chief among these complaints is that the doctors never viewed the clothes before writing their report. Within this sequence they show the autopsy photo of Kennedy's back. The importance of this will soon be made clear.

The program then discusses the Zapruder film. The narrator explains "The majority of witnesses heard three shots. The first bullet evidently missed. It has never been found." Oh my! What a juxtaposition! The narrator fails to explain that the very witnesses the program has relied upon to claim there were three shots, also claimed--overwhelmingly--that the first shot struck Kennedy. Hmmm... So what lie comes next? "Most agree the fatal head wound was the third and final shot, Zapruder frame 313." Uhhh...most what? Most researchers? Maybe. But not most of the witnesses close enough to say as much. So what lie comes next? "The earliest sign of trouble is at frame 225, when the car emerges from behind the sign." Oh, my again! No mention of the HSCA's conclusion Kennedy was hit before he went behind the sign, and showed evidence for this by frame 207. Let's just pretend that never happened. Man, who were the consultants on this? Dale Myers? Gerald Posner? The ghost of John Lattimer? Oh, that's right, they have McAdams, who explains that Connally shows no sign of receiving a bullet before 235. The narrator then offers: "Rewinding to before the sign, neither man appears hit, so clearly both are shot sometime between frame 210, when they disappear, and frame 240, a time span of 30 frames." Arggh! The only government-hired photographic panel to study these frames concluded Kennedy was hit before frame 210. How can they not know this? Oh, I get it! They're telling us why the Warren Commission came to propose the single-bullet theory. But isn't that old news? Hasn't the conclusion of Arlen Specter in 1964 (that Kennedy was not hit before going behind the sign) been superseded by the conclusions of the HSCA photographic panel in 1978, that Kennedy was hit before going behind the sign? Is the whole program really this behind the times, an exploration of theories based upon facts no longer considered facts?

The next segment is devoted to the Haags' showing us how a Carcano bullet can be shot through boards without deformation, etc. The narrator makes it seem as if this is new information, when it's the same old stuff. WHAT A WASTE OF FILM! The program then shows us an animation of the single-bullet theory in slow-mo. The camera follows the bullet down to the back of KENNEDY'S COLLAR--five inches higher on Kennedy's clothes than the actual hole on Kennedy's clothes--then passes out Kennedy's neck! Oh, my yet again! This is the same program that just rolled its metaphorical eyes over those incompetent doctors writing an autopsy report without inspecting Kennedy's clothes...and here it is "showing" us how Kennedy was killed, while ignoring the holes in his clothes! The Haags now prepare to shoot some soap. So freakin' what? None of this is remotely new! The program now shows us the animated segment shown on CBS a few days earlier. The narrator tells us "The single-bullet theory is all about what it does after it emerges from Kennedy's neck" as the bullet hits Kennedy at his collar and then emerges from his throat. This is a lie of epic proportions. The program has already shown us the photo of Kennedy's back wound; this wound is in a location inches away from where the animated bullet has entered. Who are they trying to fool? The writer of this program is Rushmore DeNooyer; I'll have to see what else he's done and avoid it like the plague. The narrator then declares "In these three feet, the space between Kennedy and Connally, lie the answers that prove or disprove the single-bullet theory."

Luke Haag then shoots a block of soap to simulate Kennedy's back and throat wounds. OOOPS! The hole in the back of the soap, representing the size of the temporary cavity, is far larger than the entrance on Kennedy's back. He then shows us the exit from the soap. It is slightly larger than the entrance, and has a lip around the exit, almost like the top of a Coke bottle. Haag shares, "This is the exit. We can see that it's very little different in size than the entrance." Note that he says "different in size" and not plain old "different." We're clearly not supposed to notice that this exit looks nothing like the entrance. The Haags then start talking about how the bullet begins to yaw as it leaves the soap. Oh no! I sense an attack of the ovoids coming on, where they lie about the shape of Connally's back wound. I notice also that they keep saying there was three feet between Kennedy and Connally. This is not true. The HSCA studied this and determined there was but 2 feet between Kennedy's throat and Connally's back. We are now shown the shape the bullet made when hitting a piece of sheetrock placed three feet beyond the soap neck. They assure us this is "the same position Connally was in, three feet beyond Kennedy." This shows that the bullet was traveling sideways. Haag says "Connally's coat had this kind of a hole in it." This is another whopper. The hole in the sheetrock, pretty much an outline of a Carcano bullet, is about 4 times longer than wide. The hole in Connally's jacket, on the other hand, was determined to be about 1.7 cm by 1.2 cm, not even as ovoid as the hole in Kennedy's jacket, 1.5 cm by 1. The narrator then builds upon this lie by relating "And so does Connally's back, according to his surgeon." Wow, the hits just keep coming. This surgeon, of course, insisted the bullet creating the wound on Connally's back had entered at an angle, and had not hit Kennedy beforehand. To no one's surprise, Haag then concludes "There's no reason not to conclude that the single-bullet theory as proposed by Arlen Specter is the correct one."

The talking heads then briefly discuss the head shot. McAdams, Morley, and Thompson tell how the showing of the back-and-to-the-left movement of Kennedy's head on TV led to the HSCA's investigation. McAdams and Morley then denounce the dictabelt evidence. The program then takes an unexpected turn and begins discussing laser scanners. The Haags, here listed as "Firearms Expert"s, are behind this part as well. They laser scan Dealey Plaza, and claim their data is accurate within an eighth of an inch. This study leads Michael Haag to proclaim that a shot from the knoll is possible, but it would have to have impacted on the right front of Kennedy's head. We are then rushed to the Boston University School of Medicine, for a virtual reconstruction of Kennedy's head wounds by Greg Mahoney, a forensic artist, James McKinnis,(sp?), a forensic anthropologist and Peter Cummings, a pathologist specializing in gunshot wounds to the head. This should prove interesting. The images of them at work prove that they believe the large skull fragment found in the limousine to be frontal bone a la Dr. Angel, and not parietal bone, a la Dr. Baden. They also think far more skull was missing than is missing on the x-rays. Strangely, it appears they think the Harper fragment was high on the back of Kennedy's head. Where do they get all this? What is their source material? I have a suspicion they've assumed the "mystery photo" to reflect the condition of Kennedy's skull beneath the scalp, and don't realize large chunks of skull fell to the table as the scalp was peeled back. I then notice something even more alarming. Cummings has placed the "v-shaped notch" apparent in the mystery photo on Kennedy's forehead, above his right eye. This is where Dr. Angel placed it. Perhaps Cummings and his colleagues don't realize no one saw a beveled exit in this region and that Angel's conclusions were brushed aside by the Forensic Pathology Panel.

The next bit is also interesting. Cummings visits the National Archives to look at the original photos and x-rays. Cummings then gets all emotional about how honored he was to get to look at the photos. He tells us the photos in the archives are much clearer than those publicly available. We are then shown the back of the head photo while the narrator tells us "Even so they're not perfect. A photo intended to document the entry point is unclear, because for whatever reasons the autopsy doctors did not shave the head wound." Well, well. Ya gotta love this. Cummings can't identify the red spot in the cowlick as an entrance wound. The program isn't a total waste, after all. (I wonder how McAdams feels about this.) The program then gets even more interesting. Cummings says the brain photos show that the bullet traveled from the back of the brain forward, and that this rules out the shot's coming from the knoll. It then gets still more interesting. Cummings says that the fracture pattern on the x-rays suggests the bullet entered LOW on the head. He thinks the long fractures came from the EOP, and that the fractures by the cowlick are concentric fractures. (He doesn't seem to realize that an entrance at this location is inconsistent with the brain damage he's just described.) The narrator then uses this to argue against the shot's coming from the knoll. The program's creators don't even seem to know what Cummings is telling them--that the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel got it wrong! Oh wait! They do. The program then visits Larry Sturdivan. Sturdivan says of the HSCA panel "Probably the reason that they developed the higher impact point was simply to explain that that sort of line could line up with the school book depository window. I don't know why they assumed that it had to make a straight path." Well, this hides that the high impact point was not developed by the HSCA but picked out by a secret panel created by the Johnson Administration to combat conspiracy theorists. Sturdivan then explains that the bullets fired in the 1964 tests deformed and took curved paths. Sturdivan then proposes that Kennedy's movements after 313 came courtesy a neuro-muscular response.This is somewhat gratifying. In his 2005 book, The JFK Myths, Sturdivan explained Kennedy's movements via the "jet effect" theory pushed by Dr. Luis Alvarez. This theory met a timely end last month in Pittsburgh, when Tink Thompson showed Alvarez's notes to those in attendance at the Wecht Conference, and proved Alvarez had knowingly cooked his data.

The narrator then sums it all up. "No experiments can show why someone would take a rifle to a high window and pull the trigger, but they can show it's probable that Lee Harvey Oswald did, and that his shots alone killed President John F. Kennedy." Luke Haag then repeats his Sherlock Holmes mantra: "If you can rule out that which is impossible, that which remains, however seemingly improbable, is the truth." The first two-thirds of this show was just awful, but the last third was interesting, and perhaps even important.

[David Von Pein]

The NOVA program showed how the fracture patterns seem to support a lower entry wound...

But the "red spot" autopsy photo debunks that theory. Simple as that.

Plus, the Clark panel found a bevelled-in place on the X-ray that was 100mm. above the EOP, which perfectly aligns with the location of the red-spot entry hole.

There is also the testimony of the HSCA/FPP doctors (plus Charles Petty's testimony at the '86 mock trial) which fully supports the higher entry point, due to the fact that the lower part of the brain did not sustain the kind of damage to support a low/EOP entry.

To my mind, all of that stuff is called corroboration for the high cowlick entry.

And it's photographic corroboration, which is (I would think) the best kind.

Edited November 14, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Of the last SIX non-CTs to view the photos, ONLY ONE thought the red mark was an entrance wound. Now why do you think that is, David?

I'll try asking this for the third time (never got Pat to answer the previous two times):

Why is the ruler in the red spot autopsy picture situated right next to the red spot (very similar in nature to the ruler we find in the photo showing JFK's upper-back wound)?

What were they "measuring"? Why is a ruler needed in that photo if the red spot (which is right next to the ruler) isn't really a bullet hole at all?

Edited November 14, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

FYI / BTW,

In the newest batch of "never before seen" photos that has just been unearthed in TIME Magazine and on the TIME website, we find yet another photo of JFK's jacket all bunched up shortly before he was shot.

This picture was taken a little earlier in the motorcade, near Turtle Creek, prior to the President's car entering the heaviest downtown crowds:

Edited November 14, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

My responses in bold.

The NOVA program showed how the fracture patterns seem to support a lower entry wound...

But the "red spot" autopsy photo debunks that theory. Simple as that.

Wrong. Saying the Earth is flat doesn't make it so. Simple as that.

Plus, the Clark panel found a bevelled-in place on the X-ray that was 100mm. above the EOP, which perfectly aligns with the location of the red-spot entry hole.

Yes, they so claimed. But no one else before or since ever saw this supposed beveling on the back of the head in the x-ray. At what point does it dawn on you they were "seeing things", or lying?

There is also the testimony of the HSCA/FPP doctors (plus Charles Petty's testimony at the '86 mock trial) which fully supports the higher entry point, due to the fact that the lower part of the brain did not sustain the kind of damage to support a low/EOP entry.

Proving my point. They invented the higher entry because they couldn't see how the low entry connected to the high exit. The truth which they wouldn't allow themselves to even consider, of course, was that they didn't connect because they were different wounds.

To my mind, all of that stuff is called corroboration for the high cowlick entry.

Well, you're wrong. If you see a painting of a yellow bird, and you refuse to think it's a red bird, it's not corroboration for it being a blue bird.

And it's photographic corroboration, which is (I would think) the best kind.

"Photographic corroboration" that is not corroborated by the men who took the photos, or witnessed the photos being taken, is pretty much the worst kind.

[David Von Pein]

Looks like a hat trick for Pat, as he ignores the question asked in Post #22 for a third time now. Nice.

Edited November 15, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

We can talk all day about the height of the entrance wound made in JFK's back by CE399, but the truth of the matter is, the SBT can be debunked more easily other ways.

1) The Wrong Angle

JFK's neck is discussed as if it were nothing more than a piece of meat. In reality, the neck is mostly bones called the "cervical vertebrae". There are seven of them (C1 - C7) and they can be seen in the following diagram:

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/f4-u1_0-B978-1-4160-3285-4__10039-7__gr2.jpg

As you can see, the vertebrae have lateral projections called the "transverse processes". They are the long points sticking out either side of the vertebrae. There is not enough room between any two transverse processes on the right side of the neck for a bullet to pass between them, and this was never claimed. What WAS claimed was that Oswald's bullet missed the right transverse process of JFK's C7 vertebra but struck a glancing blow to the right transverse process of JFK's T1 vertebra. This T1 vertebra is the first vertebra below the cervical vertebrae and, as the diagram shows, is the vertebra connected to the first ribs.

This scenario might have been believable, if we had not been asked to believe this same bullet travelled through JFK's neck and also tore through the right side of JFK`s trachea (windpipe) before carrying on to JBC`s right armpit. In order for CE 399 to miss the right transverse process of the C7 vertebra PLUS strike the right side of the trachea, my measurements show CE 399 would have to be travelling through JFK's neck at a minimum angle of 26° measured from a centreline front to back through JFK. If JFK had been turned to his right 5°, as many believe he was, this might have reduced this figure to 21°.

CE 399 could not possibly have travelled through JFK at an angle of 21° and been able to strike JBC`s right armpit, regardless of how many cartoons the Lame Nuts show us of JBC sitting in the middle of the limo. And please, do not try to tell me the trachea wanders around the neck every time we turn our head to the side. Put your fingers on your windpipe and turn your head. See? The trachea retains the same vertical alignment.

2) John Connally's Rubber Elbow

Medical evidence shows that CE 399, after tumbling through the air from JFK to JBC and shattering a rib in JBC, magically regained its stability in flight and managed to put a rather neat hole between the two bones (radius and ulna) of JBC's right forearm, severely fracturing the radius in the process. What is not often discussed by the LN's is that CE 399 exited below JBC's right nipple and entered the BACK side of JBC's forearm and exited the PALM side of his forearm.

Hold your forearm at chest height in front of you with your palm facing down. In this position, the forearm bone closest to your chest is the radius and the furthest from your chest is the ulna. Now, lower your forearm to just below your right nipple and try to turn your forearm back towards yourself (back side of your forearm facing your chest) so that the space between the two bones is lined up with what would have been the path of CE 399. If you are like 99% of the people on this planet, your elbow joint simply will not allow this rotation. To even come close to this alignment is quite a strain on the elbow, and is not a natural position at all.

Now, keep in mind that it was JBC's radius that was shattered, while his ulna was untouched. Because of the misalignment with the path of the bullet, any bullet striking the back side of the radius would have done one of two things: ricochet off of the radius to some other part of the limo OR ricochet off of the radius and strike the ulna.

I was rather amused to watch the brief cartoon in the "documentary" about Donahue and his theory that SS Agent Hickey accidentally shot JFK with an AR-15. The animator neatly solves the problem above by having CE 399 enter the palm side of JBC's forearm and exit the back side of his forearm.

Just another lie from the Lame Nuts. They must be desperate.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Douglas Caddy]

PBS show on JFK assassination 'rigged' and 'biased,' author says

By Peter Mucha, Philly.com

Last updated: Friday, November 15, 2013, 6:42 PM

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Novas_JFK_show_rigged_and_biased_author_says.html#3KAFxbfeizGaP0ST.99

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Caddy, IT WAS VOMIT! They cherry picked the evidence. Terrible show. Do an honest recreation and you can't prove the magic fraud bullet. TD

Have you considered pooling resources with individuals as skeptical as yourself (I gather there are over 150 million such skeptics in this country alone) and commissioning the sort of study you feel to be necessary?

Dave

".....trolling, trolling over the ocean blue....."

[Rodney Rivers]

MSM using the 50th Anniversery as a opportunity to crush all conspriacy theories/theoriets since 75 percent of people still think it's a conspiracy.

Every channel I've tuned into with a JFK show it's all about lone nut or how conspiracy theories are from crazy people who don't investigate anything.

Makes me want to puke but on the other hand, they're so desperate to shove lone nut / magic bullet / warren omission down everyone's throats it really makes them look sort of desperate.

[David Von Pein]

Makes me want to puke but on the other hand, they're so desperate to shove lone nut / magic bullet / warren omission down everyone's throats it really makes them look sort of desperate.

Somehow, supporting and propping up the facts in the JFK case means that the MSM has become "desperate" (in the mind of a conspiracy advocate).

Kinda sad.

Edited November 17, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Blair Dobson]

Makes me want to puke but on the other hand, they're so desperate to shove lone nut / magic bullet / warren omission down everyone's throats it really makes them look sort of desperate.

Somehow, supporting and propping up the facts in the JFK case means that the MSM has become "desperate" (in the mind of a conspiracy advocate).

Kinda sad.

"facts" don't need supporting or propping up...they hold themselves up.

what is "kinda sad" is the way people manipulate and cherrypick information and then present that as "fact".

sadder are the dogmatic bullying types pushing weightless unscientific garbage as gospel..

ever notice the LN'r types are usually the most stubborn and infantile?

funny that..

ahh and the ol Blowhard Posner and his "Closet Closed" link... Classic...

[David Von Pein]

what is "kinda sad" is the way people manipulate and cherrypick information and then present that as "fact".

Sounds more like the conspiracy theorists' M.O. to me.

And 'round and 'round we go.

ahh and the ol Blowhard Posner and his "Closet Closed" link... Classic...

If you prefer Bugliosi, McAdams, Reitzes, Myers, Nizer, Bill Buckley, or Jim Moore -- I've got plenty from those people too.

Just more silly LN "blowhards", right Blair?

Edited November 17, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Blair Dobson]

Bill as in William F? You were on a personal first name basis with that ol' Nazi shill? I wonder what a pair of his heels and an old frock go for on eBay these days...First class clown he was. He used to dress up like Eva Braun at parties I hear...

Bugliosi? He'd tell you peanut butter was mustard if he could make a buck. Intellectually dishonest coward that he is...

"Turn the camera off...turn the camera off" to quote Bumliosi. I love the way he stammers when he gets a hard line...

Like William F Bumley, he is only good when he can bully people.

The rest are pretty negligible as far as popular culture goes...or credibility...or critical thinking...if they are hard line Lone Nutters...

Your choice of right wing nut jobs is pretty good.

Stack that human trash as high as you want, add yourself at the top of the pile while you are at it, none of you can prove your LN theories 100% because it don't add up unless you are horrible at math..

But prove me wrong...I have read through a large majority of your whinge on here...

You have nothing...but you stand on the shoulders of giants don't you...

See, I can argue your lone nut garbage as convincingly as you can until it comes to "facts" and "important details" like physics, ballistics, anatomy etc...

I can also argue the other side too and there's a lot of bunk in CT theory too..James Files etc etc...

You just want to fit in with more of your ilk...so you fit somewhere...anywhere...

but yeah, right wingers share a lot of the same sociopathic traits as LN'rs...funny that...

Edited November 17, 2013 by Blair Dobson