If Humes lied, then when?

[Michael Griffith]

On 11/18/2022 at 9:14 PM, Tom Gram said:

The fragment trail is indeed a massive problem with the “EOP single assassin theory” - not so much for the existence of the fragments but for the location. It is possible for an FMJ bullet to leave a fragment trail. Here’s a fairly recent paper comparing single and double head shots in pig skulls that may be of interest: 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013744/#!po=1.92308

This interesting and useful paper does not argue that FMJ bullets can leave a lead snowstorm of small fragments in a skull after striking it. It does not make this claim. Remember that the nose and tail of the alleged single head shot were reportedly found in the limo, so any fragments that this alleged bullet deposited inside the skull would be from the lead interior of the bullet.

Another fact worth noting is that the paper does not cite a single instance when any of the FMJ bullets had metal scraped off them and deposited on the outer table as they entered the pig skulls.

Yes, FMJ bullets can veer inside a skull after they penetrate it, but not to the fantastic degree required by Sturdivan's theory. Indeed, the paper you cite indicates that the resulting wound tracts inside the pig skulls did not veer substantially.

Sturdivan is asking us to believe that an FMJ bullet entered the skull at a 16-degree downward angle and then not only veered sharply upward but also veered sharply to the right in order to exit the upper-front part of the right parietal bone. He does this because he knows that to get a relatively straight trajectory from the EOP entry wound to the WC's exit wound, JFK would have had to be leaning about 60 degrees forward, which no film or photo shows him doing during the time frame in question. 

Sturdivan says nothing about the fact that the fragment trail described in the autopsy report is nowhere to be seen on the extant skull x-rays. The autopsy report says the fragment trail started at just above the EOP and extended to a point just above the right eye, and it makes no mention of any fragment trail near the top of the head. Yet, the only fragment trail on the extant skull x-rays is above the alleged cowlick entry site and nowhere near the EOP.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

This interesting and useful paper does not argue that FMJ bullets can leave a lead snowstorm of small fragments in a skull after striking it. It does not make this claim. Remember that the nose and tail of the alleged single head shot were reportedly found in the limo, so any fragments that this alleged bullet deposited inside the skull would be from the lead interior of the bullet.

Another fact worth noting is that the paper does not cite a single instance when any of the FMJ bullets had metal scraped off them and deposited on the outer table as they entered the pig skulls.

Yes, FMJ bullets can veer inside a skull after they penetrate it, but not to the fantastic degree required by Sturdivan's theory. Indeed, the paper you cite indicates that the resulting wound tracts inside the pig skulls did not veer substantially.

Sturdivan is asking us to believe that an FMJ bullet entered the skull at a 16-degree downward angle and then not only veered sharply upward but also veered sharply to the right in order to exit the upper-front part of the right parietal bone. He does this because he knows that to get a relatively straight trajectory from the EOP entry wound to the WC's exit wound, JFK would have had to be leaning about 60 degrees forward, which no film or photo shows him doing during the time frame in question. 

Sturdivan says nothing about the fact that the fragment trail described in the autopsy report is nowhere to be seen on the extant skull x-rays. The autopsy report says the fragment trail started at just above the EOP and extended to a point just above the right eye, and it makes no mention of any fragment trail near the top of the head. Yet, the only fragment trail on the extant skull x-rays is above the alleged cowlick entry site and nowhere near the EOP.

 

 

The paper doesn’t mention a fragment trail directly but there are a few references to deposited fragments and the pig x-rays do show a visible trail that looks pretty similar to the JFK lateral x-rays. I don’t know if I’d call it a snowstorm but it seems like an FMJ bullet can leave a substantial fragment trail under certain conditions. I also thought it was interesting that the damage from two back-to-back FMJ bullets was reported to be very similar to the damage caused by a single non-jacketed bullet. 

The second paper does show altered trajectories, but they used simulated skulls and only shot them in the front of the head. Is it a reasonable assumption that a bullet striking occipital bone and moving through actual tissue could deflect even more? I’m not really sure - but it seems to make sense. Also, just from poking myself in the back of the head above and to the right of the EOP and trying to mimic JFK’s sharp left and slight forward lean it seems like the trajectory change required for a right frontal/parietal exit would be <45 degrees, though this is hardly scientific. 

I totally agree that the autopsy report description of the fragment trail is bizarre and I have no idea in hell how Humes could have screwed that up so badly. I honestly feel the same way about Kemp Clark and the wound location. Pat has an entire chapter dedicated to showing that it’s theoretically possible for doctors to make mistakes, but the top brain surgeon in Dallas completely forgetting the location of a massive head wound less than an hour after looking at it seems like quite the stretch. I generally agree with Pat on the medical evidence and think that JFK was likely hit twice - once in the EOP and a tangential shot to the top of the head - but I still have a hard time with Clark. 

[Michael Griffith]

23 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

 

The paper doesn’t mention a fragment trail directly but there are a few references to deposited fragments and the pig x-rays do show a visible trail that looks pretty similar to the JFK lateral x-rays. I don’t know if I’d call it a snowstorm but it seems like an FMJ bullet can leave a substantial fragment trail under certain conditions.  

One, doesn't the paper indicate that those fragments are bone fragments, not bullet fragments? 

Two, the fragment trails on the pig x-rays look nothing like the high fragment trail on the JFK skull x-rays. 

The second paper does show altered trajectories, but they used simulated skulls and only shot them in the front of the head. Is it a reasonable assumption that a bullet striking occipital bone and moving through actual tissue could deflect even more? I’m not really sure - but it seems to make sense.

Not one of the bullets in the WC's own head-shot ballistics tests veered anywhere near the degree required by Sturdivan's theory. Not one of them. 

Also, just from poking myself in the back of the head above and to the right of the EOP and trying to mimic JFK’s sharp left and slight forward lean it seems like the trajectory change required for a right frontal/parietal exit would be <45 degrees, though this is hardly scientific. 

Again, a bullet from the sixth-floor sniper's nest would have struck the skull at a downward angle of at least 15 degrees. If someone can find a ballistics test where an FMJ bullet veered so markedly upward after striking skull bone, I'd like to see it. Similarly, if someone can find a ballistic test where an FMJ missile not only left dozens of tiny fragments but left them in a location well above and forward of the entry point, I'd like to see it. 

I totally agree that the autopsy report description of the fragment trail is bizarre and I have no idea in hell how Humes could have screwed that up so badly.

Oh, I'm not at all sure that Humes erred in describing the fragment trail. The trail he described is entirely plausible if the bullet struck slightly above the EOP. The only problem with it comes if one insists that the bullet came from the alleged sniper's nest. A bullet fired from a lower elevation, say a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building, could have produced a fragment trail that ran from the EOP to just above the right eye. 

Humes ignored the high fragment trail, I suspect because he knew it indicated a second head shot and knew he could not relate it to the EOP entry wound. 

I honestly feel the same way about Kemp Clark and the wound location. Pat has an entire chapter dedicated to showing that it’s theoretically possible for doctors to make mistakes, but the top brain surgeon in Dallas completely forgetting the location of a massive head wound less than an hour after looking at it seems like quite the stretch. I generally agree with Pat on the medical evidence and think that JFK was likely hit twice - once in the EOP and a tangential shot to the top of the head - but I still have a hard time with Clark. 

I recommend you read Dr. Mantik's and Doug Horne's research on the head wounds, especially Dr. Mantik's new book. We now know from ARRB disclosures that JFK had a small wound in his right temple (the mortician filled it with wax), and I think the massive and mutually supportive eyewitness accounts, some of which include drawings, of the right-rear head wound are compelling.

[Michael Griffith]

We should keep in mind that Dr. Pierre Finck, the only forensic pathologist at the autopsy, confirmed to the ARRB that there was a fragment trail that went from a point near the external occipital protuberance (EOP) upward to the area of the right orbit (behind the right eye). No bullet fired from the Oswald sniper's nest could have made that wound, unless Kennedy's head was tilted nearly 60 degrees forward, which the Zapruder film and the Muchmore film clearly show it was not.