Jack the Ripper

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Hi Steve and Mark

First, Steve, I am not sure where you get fifteen minutes for the killer to be alone with Liz Stride on the morning of 30 September 1888 around 12:45 am in order for him to slit her throat and not mutilate her.  As you point out, Dutfield's Yard was a better lit and more frequented location than some of the other murder scenes.  Fifteen minutes is a considerable amount of time, and if the killer had been alone bending over her all that time, I should say he surely would have been seen in the act... which he was not.

Second, in regard to the sighting by Sergeant Stephen White, while he is reported to have been the only Metropolitan Police officer to get a sight of the killer, there are a number of questions about his description and the circumstances in which the supposed sighting took place.  Generally, Ripperologists prefer the description given by Joseph Lawende, one of the three Jewish men who around 1:35 am on 30 September 1888 left the Imperial Club at 16-17 Duke Street near to Mitre Square, Aldgate, where Catherine Eddowes was murdered.  The description of the man that Lawende saw with Eddowes was aged 30, 5'7", fair complexion, brown moustache, salt-and-pepper coat, red neckerchief, grey peaked cloth cap, and sailor-like.

There is an interesting essay on Stephen White and the problems with his story at  "Shrouded in Mystery : Stephen White, Amos Simpson and "Catharine Eddowes' Shawl" by Andrew Morrison.

Best regards

Chris George

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris Hi, we seem to have got our wires crossed about Stride, I'm not suggesting that her killer spent 15 mins with her dead body, but left the scene after cutting her throat. The fifteen min period is between, Schwartz---Diemschutz,My point being if this was indeed Jack, why did he depart so wildly from his M/O ie why choose Dutfields Yard, well lit ,busy,with a good chance of being caught in the act.

And why if he had the time did he not mutilate Strides body and or face,

My point about Det White was in responce to a question from Mark Stapleton, I personally have about as much faith in his "Glowing eyed man" As Packers grapes.

All the best,Steve.

[Christopher T. George]

Hi Steve

Fair enough about the fifteen minutes. I did misunderstand your point. As you say, you are looking at fifteen minutes between the incident with the witness Schwartz in which the epithet "Lipsky!" referencing a recently executed Jewish murderer, Israel Lipsky, and the arrival of Louis Diemschutz on the murder scene in Dutfield's Yard. I do though have a caveat to that possible fifteen minutes, in that all times in the case involving witnesses are, as you may know, approximate, because most of the working class people would not have had watches and most told their time approximately by the neighborhood clocks. Thus, the gap in time might not have been as long as fifteen minutes. Was Schwartz correct that the incident took place at 12:45 pm? And was Diemschutz correct that he arrived at exactly 1:00 am as he testified at the inquest on Elizabeth Stride? The scenario of Schwartz's witness statement is described on "Casebook: Jack the Ripper" which shows a good schematic of the murder location.

Best regards

Chris George

Edited June 14, 2005 by Christopher T. George

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Chris no arguement there, it could have been more or less than 15 mins, and of course we will never know. My next Seminar piece is "Who killed long Liz" so my guess is we will be discussing this again

Regards Steve.

ps If you fancy including a seminar paper, please go ahead,post on the site "Seminar threads.

[Christopher T. George]

Hi Steve

My time is rather tight right now for the next several weeks as I work on private and work projects but I will bear the seminar paper in mind. Meanwhile, I think I would be better off reacting to things as they are posted.

All my best

Chris

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Hi Steve

My time is rather tight right now for the next several weeks as I work on private and work projects but I will bear the seminar paper in mind.  Meanwhile, I think I would be better off reacting to things as they are posted.

All my best

Chris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hear what your saying, your thoughtful posts here are much appreciated.

Steve.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

BUMPED. This thread contains the history of the case. very useful to newcomers. Steve.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Time for another bump. Read all the threads by all means, but if you are a newcomer start here for all the relevant history.