The balcony arrest?

[Steve Thomas]

There are some aspects of the timing here which has me somewhat confused.Buhk is at the Trade Mart when the word comes through about the assassination. I imagine this would have been within minutes of it happening. He, Cunningham, Toney and Taylor head off for Dealey Plaza but en-route are told of Tippit's murder which according to the Warren Report happened at 1:15pm. These guys were sure taking their time to get into the action.

So on their way to the Tippit murder scene, they get the word that a suspect is in the branch library at Jefferson and Marsalis. It's 1:32pm when C.T. Walker broadcasts the location of the suspect. Was Buhk and the others already there or were they still en-route? If they were already there, how did they know? If they were en-route, then they were driving around for nearly an hour.

At 1:40pm the information comes through that the suspect at the library is the wrong man. Oswald is arrested at the theater at 1:45pm. Four of the officers involved with the action at the theater and who entered the building together were Nick McDonald, T.A. Hudson, Ray Hawkins and C.T. Walker. Walker certainly got to the theater in super quick time. Is this realistic?

BTW, Buhk is a very interesting character. In 1952 he was an assistant jailer when John Howard Pressley was beaten. Buhk was the acting supervisor that night and copped a 30 day suspension. Assistant jailer Herbert Shafer was fired and Apprentice Policeman C.A. Moore was suspended for 15 days.

Buhk was also reduced in rank to Patrolman.

FWIW.

Marvin Buhk below.

James

James,

I had heard once through the grapevine that leadership at the Trade Mart was noticeably lacking. People were wandering around not knowing WHAT to do, and finally officers started taking it on themselves to get things done.

In his after-action report, Lt. Cunningham wrote that they headed south on Industrial from the Trade Mart. Just about the time they got to Oak Lawn, all available officers were asked to report to Tenth and East Jefferson. Cunningham decided to proceed diretly there instead of going downtown. While heading for Tippit's murder scene, word came over the radio about the suspect in the Library.

In his after-action report, Walker wrote that he was cruising in the area of 10th and Beckley looking for Tippit's killer when he heard over the radio that the suspect was in the theater. That would only be about two blocks over and one block down. I'm not sure that Walker went to the Library.

PS: How did you get your info about Buhk?

Steve Thomas

[James Richards]

Thanks Antti and Steve,

I'll concede that C.T. Walker had the time to get to the theater but Buhk and the others seem to have been driving around in circles.

If Walker wasn't at the library, how did he know to broadcast that a suspect was there? I haven't quite figured out that one either.

Anyway, Steve, I got the Buhk information from newspaper reports at the time.

James

Edited March 21, 2006 by James Richards

[Guest John Gillespie]

James Richards Posted Today, 11:43 AM At 1:40pm the information comes through that the suspect at the library is the wrong man. Oswald is arrested at the theater at 1:45pm. Four of the officers involved with the action at the theater and who entered the building together were Nick McDonald, T.A. Hudson, Ray Hawkins and C.T. Walker. Walker certainly got to the theater in super quick time. Is this realistic?

James, I believe it could be realistic, the Library and Texas Theater are both in the same area of Oak Cliff as I recall. Now, whether that 45-60 minute period from the shooting of the president and the time to drive the cops from the trade mart to almost down-town and then down to 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff to the Tippit shooting makes sense I don't know. To me that sure sounds like the time line is faulty.....

___________________________________________________________________________

Guys,

I'm very much enjoying all of this thread. There are some things that are new to me and that's always exciting. In the matter of Tippit I have been corresponding with Dale Myers, whose book "With Malice" is the definitive work on the subject (whether one tends to agree or not). For my money, the only work to match this is Hougan's "Deep Throat..."

Myers and I agree to disagree about JFK/LHO. Too bad and so what. That does NOT diminish his work or credibility as far as I am concerned. The two killings are neither mutually exclusive nor mutually inclusive. I write to you from the No-Agenda Zone, if you'll pardon the expression. But let's see what you think. Here is his Tippit site: http://www.jdtippit.com/

Thanks for the ride, as always,

JG

[James Richards]

Hi John,

As for Tippit, I wish there was more information regarding his moonlighting at the Steven's Theater and his relationship with Manuel Avila. Tippit had been there for several years and one interesting tid bit is that on the morning of the assassination, Tippit got his niece to return a Spanish language book to the library for him.

Speculation, but did Tippit hear something regarding the upcoming assassination and wanted to broaden his language skills? When there are rumors that the Cubans at the Harlandale address frequented the theater and that the theater was used for various criminal activities, then speculation is enticing indeed.

Manuel Avila below.

James

[Steve Thomas]

James,

If Walker wasn't at the library, how did he know to broadcast that a suspect was there? I haven't quite figured out that one either.

My apologies. I should have checked first.

Here's the tape transcript:

1208. 223: (tires squealing, noises) 223, he in the library at

Jefferson - east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson.

1209. 223: 223.

1210. DIS: What's the location, 223?

1211. 223: Marsalis and Jefferson. In the library. I'm going around

the back. Get somebody in front. Get them in fast.

223 is Patrolman C.T. Walker

So he was at the Library. I wonder why he didn't mention that in his after-action report?

As far as Buhk and the others taking so long to get there, I don't think they left the Trade Mart for a while. I think there was a lot of milling around going on before Captain Jones told Buhk, Cunningham, et.al. to go downtown.

Steve

Steve Thomas

[James Richards]

Thanks, Steve.

If Buhk and company were en-route to Dealey Plaza, which isn't far from the Trade Mart when they heard about Tippit being killed, then they would have been milling around for about 45 minutes. Given that, it does indeed suggest that leadership at the Trade Mart was lacking.

Cunningham did show some initiative when they did get going but this initial confusion is worrying.

I appreciate all the great information.

James

[Greg Parker]

Steve & Robert,

I too am sorry for the time it's taken to reply.

These "Secret Service" guys (he assumed they were plain clothed cops- it was indeed Buhk who called them SS) did speak to Hamby. In fact, according to WM, they were the ones who sent him running into the library in the first place by telling him a cop had been shot and he should go in and tell management to lock all the door and not let any one in. As he ran to do this, he was spotted by Walker...

Now why didn't these cops/Secret Service guys go in and advise management themselves?

Have always considered the library incident a possible deliberate diversion away from the ALT.

Robert,

I am sorry about taking so long to respond to inquiries about the 'Secret Service' agent at the Church, I have 3 or 4 things I am working on simultaneously and the main reflection of this 'overload' factor unfortunately is on the Forum posts.

Although, I have never read the book, Dale Myers "With Malice" mentions that (I believe it was a Dallas Police Officer, although it may have been the kid they thought was the Tippit murderer) someone at the ABT identified himself as a Secret Service officer there, which I thought was very, very strange.

Thanks for responding.

Based on the above paragraph, I believe that you are referring to DPD Officer Marvin Buhk and it wasn't the ABT, it was the Library.

At 12:30 in the afternoon on November 22nd, Detective Marvin Buhk of the Dallas City Police Forgery Bureau was supplementing security at the Dallas Trade Mart where President Kennedy was due to give a speech that afternoon. He was on duty on the fourth floor of the Trade Mart when he received word of the President’s assassination. He said that Captain Jones then instructed him to proceed with Lt. Cunningham, E.E. Taylor, and J.B. Toney to the scene of the assassination to see what they could do. Enroute to the scene, they received word that a police officer had been shot in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas and Lt. Cunningham decided that they could do more good by going to that location immediately, rather than by way of the President’s shooting. While they were driving, they received word of the suspect being in the branch library at Jefferson and Marsalis. As Buhk wrote in his after-action report to Police Chief Jesse Curry on December 3, 1963, “We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously.”

Now maybe Buhk meant to write "Special Service" instead of "Secret Service", which would make sense, but Buhk was a Detective in the Forgery Bureau and should have known the difference.

Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:32PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.”. This is only about an eight-minute window of opportunity. When did these “secret service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”?

From Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Marvin A. Buhk. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. Dallas Police Archives, Box 2 Folder # 7: as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Transcript of Radio Log, Channel 2. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, Sawyer Exhibit A, volume XXI, pp. 396-397, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0211a.htm

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

James,

Thanks, Steve.

If Buhk and company were en-route to Dealey Plaza, which isn't far from the Trade Mart when they heard about Tippit being killed, then they would have been milling around for about 45 minutes. Given that, it does indeed suggest that leadership at the Trade Mart was lacking.

I was looking for something else and ran across this exchange in the dispatch tapes at 1:42 PM:

"410 en route from Trade Mart with three detectives to the City Hall, unless otherwise directed."

410 is only identified as the CID or Criminal Investigation Division. The Forgery Bureau came under CID.

Lieutenant Cunninham was a Lieutenant in the Forgery Bureau. I believe that this call at 1:42 came from Cunningham, because he did indeed have three Detectives with him when he left the Trade Mart.

If my memory serves me right, Deputy Chief Batchelor was in charge at the Trade Mart. I think it was Lt. Paul McCaghren who wrote about the lack of leadership at the Trade Mart in maybe Larry Sneed's book, No More Silence.

I believe Batchelor followed Jesse Curry as Chief of Police when Curry retired, and if my memory serves me right, Batchelor's tenure as Chief was an unmitigated disaster.

Steve Thomas

[Guest John Gillespie]

Hi John,

As for Tippit, I wish there was more information regarding his moonlighting at the Steven's Theater and his relationship with Manuel Avila. Tippit had been there for several years and one interesting tid bit is that on the morning of the assassination, Tippit got his niece to return a Spanish language book to the library for him.

Speculation, but did Tippit hear something regarding the upcoming assassination and wanted to broaden his language skills? When there are rumors that the Cubans at the Harlandale address frequented the theater and that the theater was used for various criminal activities, then speculation is enticing indeed.

Manuel Avila below.

James

_________________________________________

James,

Just getting back to the thread now...yeah, speculation certainly is enticing and often seems to be the engine running the Forum but, to be fair, it often leads to, well, leads. Dale Myers and I have gone 'round a bit on LHO's innocence regarding JFK - my steadfast position - but regarding Tippit I totally support the assertions in "With Malice" (the research for which he says he spent nearly half of his life). He has done a most thorough investigation and covers the Avila business as well.

But, yeah, James, I DO think Tippit's affair, associations and actions make him suspicious. I can suspect his involvement - on a tightly compartmentalized level - but I am left with that enticement, speculation. I do urge you to read "With Malice." The computer graphics are extremely impressive, making you feel as if you're right there. So check it out and we can chat it up.

Here's what I would love to know: whatever it was that Tippit said to LHO that made him jerk away from the Police car. I suspect something like "well, I'm gonna have to take you in..." Then, Oswald did exactly what I would have done.

Say, my family is looking for a couple of lost pictures of a picnic we had in 1954, somewhere in New Hampshire I think. Do you happen to have them?

Regards,

JG

[Guest John Gillespie]

this is a duplication..I stutter while I write

Edited March 22, 2006 by John Gillespie

[James Richards]

Hi John,

As for Tippit, I wish there was more information regarding his moonlighting at the Steven's Theater and his relationship with Manuel Avila. Tippit had been there for several years and one interesting tid bit is that on the morning of the assassination, Tippit got his niece to return a Spanish language book to the library for him.

Speculation, but did Tippit hear something regarding the upcoming assassination and wanted to broaden his language skills? When there are rumors that the Cubans at the Harlandale address frequented the theater and that the theater was used for various criminal activities, then speculation is enticing indeed.

Manuel Avila below.

James

_________________________________________

James,

Just getting back to the thread now...yeah, speculation certainly is enticing and often seems to be the engine running the Forum but, to be fair, it often leads to, well, leads. Dale Myers and I have gone 'round a bit on LHO's innocence regarding JFK - my steadfast position - but regarding Tippit I totally support the assertions in "With Malice" (the research for which he says he spent nearly half of his life). He has done a most thorough investigation and covers the Avila business as well.

But, yeah, James, I DO think Tippit's affair, associations and actions make him suspicious. I can suspect his involvement - on a tightly compartmentalized level - but I am left with that enticement, speculation. I do urge you to read "With Malice." The computer graphics are extremely impressive, making you feel as if you're right there. So check it out and we can chat it up.

Here's what I would love to know: whatever it was that Tippit said to LHO that made him jerk away from the Police car. I suspect something like "well, I'm gonna have to take you in..." Then, Oswald did exactly what I would have done.

Say, my family is looking for a couple of lost pictures of a picnic we had in 1954, somewhere in New Hampshire I think. Do you happen to have them?

Regards,

JG

John,

'With Malice' is on the list.

It is very easy to include Tippit in any conspiracy but I wouldn't be so sure. To be honest, I can not figure any role he would have been used for. The teams for Dallas would have been self-contained with proven performers and there would have been no need to reach out beyond it. IMO

James

[James Richards]

If my memory serves me right, Deputy Chief Batchelor was in charge at the Trade Mart. I think it was Lt. Paul McCaghren who wrote about the lack of leadership at the Trade Mart in maybe Larry Sneed's book, No More Silence.

I believe Batchelor followed Jesse Curry as Chief of Police when Curry retired, and if my memory serves me right, Batchelor's tenure as Chief was an unmitigated disaster. (Steve Thomas)

Steve,

Indeed it was. In 1966 Charles Batchelor inherited a Department whose effectiveness was in serious decline. First under Carl Hansson and then Jesse Curry. Things went from bad to worse after the assassination of JFK as the DPD was overwhelmed with a barrage of national criticism.

Batchelor was obviously not the right man for the job. He copped some major flak after the removal of Assistant Chief George Lumpkin which was ultimately seen by the rank and file as a move by City Hall even though Batchelor assumed the responsibility.

Batchelor didn't see 1970 as he died of cancer on the 31st of December, 1969. Tragically his son was killed by a hit and run driver in 1971.

Charles Batchelor below.

James

[Greg Parker]

Here’s what Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers wrote in his 11/22/63 statement:

“Upon proceeding to the balcony of the theatre, I ordered the manager to turn on the house lights. Some unknown officer was holding a white man at the steps of the balcony and I proceeded on into the balcony. I looked over the balcony and saw a commotion in the center section, near the back, in the downstairs of the theatre, and I hollered to other officers, ‘He's Downstairs’.”

-----------------------------------------

Who was the “white man” being held by an “unknown officer” at the steps of the balcony? These two people disappear in Walthers’ testimony, and we are informed that the balcony was vacant, except for officers pouring into it. Had some lone occupant of the balcony already been taken away? Who knows.

Ron

Although there are many questions in my mind involving EVERYTHING in Oak Cliff that day, I think the "unknown white man being held by an unknown officer" may have been John Gibson. Gibson was called before the WC and testified. Here is a snippet of some testimony from Gibson:

Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened after the lights came on?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that works these lights--if something was wrong--I thought maybe they had a fire.

Mr. BALL. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into the lobby?

Mr. GIBSON. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door there were two or three--anyway the first police officer that got to me was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody in the balcony?"

I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood around out in the lobby for--I don't know--a minute or something, I guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest of them were going upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What did you see happen?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on and then the policeman started down the aisle--I would say there was another--I don't know, maybe six or eight--started down the aisles.

Mr. BALL. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles?

Mr. GIBSON. Toward the screen--I don't know if they were going down all of them or not. I don't believe there was any--there was one policeman standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the far aisle just behind me--I don't think there was anybody going down the far aisle next to the wall on my side.

Here is further WC testimony by George Applin:

Mr. BALL - Then some police officers came in there?

Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; the lights came on.

Mr. BALL - Then what do you remember happening?

Mr. APPLIN - I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.

Mr. BALL - From the rear, or from the front?

Mr. APPLIN - From the rear.

Mr. BALL - Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?

Mr. APPLIN - Where you enter it.

Mr. BALL - From your rear?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall.

Mr. BALL - Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.

Mr. BALL - What else did you see?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights.

Mr. BALL - You got up and ran up to the front?

Mr. APPLIN - Went to the front to find out what was happened--was happened-- happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down and I stopped to find out.

Mr. BALL - Did you ask him?

Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.

Mr. BALL - What did he do?

Mr. APPLIN - Went to the front and turned around and started back up.

Mr. BALL - Started back up the aisle?

I have no proof that this is who the "unknown white man" is, but it is possible that since Gibson was located at the rear off to the right, by the stairs, with what he felt was possibly police officer right on the other side of him. If somebody just happened to see a police officer with a shotgun standing on the other side of some white man near the base of the stairs to the balcony (there were 2 stairs to the balcony), it may give the impression that this man was being held/detained by that officer.

As far as the arrest being in the balcony......All I can say that at BEST, giving the benefit of the doubt.....it is an example of extremely shoddy attention to detail in preparing these VERY important documents. I have searched at length to determine "how" or "when" it was determined by the DPD that the suspect might be in the balcony. This is the only "innocent" possibility that I have been able to come up with (of course, this does not exclude other possibilities, including the sinister ones). No matter what, the reports are horrible in regards to accuracy and it may have behooved those compiling the reports, to at least get with some of the other officers there and review their statements (Reading those reports in the DPD archives mentioned previously in this thread just gave me a headache, as they were totally inconsistent. While not saying too much about the reliability of "eye witness testimony" of police officers, it does provide alot of insight to the probability that they didn't get together to cover this incident up, because they were all over the place and contradicting each other. This obviously doesn't mean that there wasn't certain individuals doing something, but the whole group obviously didn't "get the memo of covering something up" prior to writing their statements.) Anyway, here is Burrough's testimony, which could show where this balcony stuff started:

This is testimony of the Texas Theater employee Warren "Butch" Burroughs:

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute I want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket.

Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12.

Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock----yes.

Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir----first, I think he was up there.

Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.

Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door----yes. Yes, it goes straight----you come through the door and go straight----you go upstairs to the balcony.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police who didn't have a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."

Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No----I got information that a man----the police were cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs.

Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on----somehow they came in----one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front.

This whole episode is strange to me, when you take into account Haire's claims about seeing an arrest out back. Additionally, reading the affidavits and testimony of Brewer, Postal, and many others there, it just seems that by the time the WC conducted hearings months later, these folks were contradicting themselves. Like I said, EVERYTHING in Oak Cliff that day just bugs me.....nothing "fits" right.

However, it might not be right, but it is possible the unknown white man was John Gibson.

Gibson said he arrived at about 1:00 pm. The manager was quoted (accurately or not?) as saying the "white male" had been there since 12:05. Since he could not have been inside at that time (it did not open until 12:45), he may have meant the person had been waiting outside from around then until opening time. This fits Applin who waited in his car from around noon.

Since he wasn't a local (he was sent to Dallas for a short stint of work by his boss, but had to take 2 days off while equipment was being installed), it's probably not that strange that he arrived so early. Trouble with saying it was Applin is there's no indication from his testimony any cop stopped to talk to him.

I am currently trying to locate John Gibson, but have only his name and place of birth from his testimony to go on. Difficult with such a common name and no date of birth, age etc.

If anyone can help, please contact me.