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The Education Forum


John Simkin

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I am in the process of interviewing a collection of people who have been involved in interpreting events from the past. Either as historians, journalists, cartoonists or as active participants in past events.

Alfred Baldwin

Alfred C. Baldwin was born in New Haven, Connecticut, on 23rd June, 1936. He graduated from Fairfield University in 1957 with a BBA then entered the United States Marines.

In 1960 Baldwin entered the University of Connecticut, School of Law. After graduating in 1963 he joined the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Memphis and was soon afterwards sent to Tampa. After several months in Tampa he was assigned as the Resident Agent for Sarasota, Florida with the responsibility for four counties on the west coast area of Florida.

Alfred Baldwin resigned from the FBI in 1966 and worked as the Director of Security for a multi-state trucking firm. He left this position to work for a retired Naval Admiral who was creating a college degree program at the University of New Haven for law enforcement personnel who desired a college degree in the police administration and law enforcement field.

Alfred Badwin was living in New Haven when he was recruited by James W. McCord in May, 1972, to work for the Committee to Re-elect the President. His first job was to work as a bodyguard for Martha Mitchell, the wife of John Mitchell, who was living in Washington. According to McCord's testimony he selected Baldwin's name from a registry published by the Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI. As Jim Hougan (Secret Agenda) pointed out, this was a strange decision because despite hundreds of FBI retirees in the Washington area, McCord selected a man living in Connecticut. Hougan speculates that "Baldwin was somehow special and perhaps well known to McCord".

Baldwin accompanied Martha Mitchell to Chicago. Mitchell did not like Baldwin and described him as the "gauchest character I've ever met". Baldwin was then replaced by another security man.

On 11th May, 1972, McCord arranged for Baldwin to stay at Howard Johnson's motel, across the street from the Watergate complex. The room 419 was booked in the name of McCord’s company. McCord had been asked by Gordon Liddy and E.Howard Hunt to place electronic devices in the Democratic Party campaign offices in an apartment block called Watergate. The plan was to wiretap the conversations of Larry O'Brien, chairman of the Democratic National Committee. On 28th May, 1972, McCord and his team broke into the DNC's offices and placed bugs in two of the telephones.

It became Baldwin’s job to eavesdrop the phone calls. Over the next 20 days Baldwin listened to over 200 calls. These were not recorded. Baldwin made notes and typed up summaries. Nor did Baldwin listen to all phone calls coming in. For example, he took his meals outside his room. Any phone calls taking place at this time would have been missed.

It soon became clear that the bug on one of the phones installed by James W. McCord was not working. As a result of the defective bug, McCord decided that they would have to break-in to the Watergate office again. He also heard that a representative of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War had a desk at the DNC. McCord argued that it was worth going in to see what they could discover about the anti-war activists. Gordon Liddy later claimed that the real reason for the second break-in was “to find out what O’Brien had of a derogatory nature about us, not for us to get something on him.”

On 17th June, 1972, Frank Sturgis, Virgilio Gonzalez, Eugenio Martinez, Bernard L. Barker and James W. McCord returned to O'Brien's office. It was Baldwin's job to observe the operation from his hotel room. When he saw the police walking up the stairwell steps he radioed a warning. However, Barker had turned off his walkie-talkie and Baldwin was unable to make contact with the burglars.

When E.Howard Hunt arrived at Baldwin’s hotel room he made a phone call to Douglas Caddy, a lawyer who had worked with him at Mullen Company (a CIA front organization). Baldwin heard him discussing money, bail and bonds. Hunt then told Baldwin to load McCord’s van with the listening post equipment and the Gemstone file and drive it to McCord’s house in Rockville.

Baldwin told his story to a lawyer to a friend and classmate at law school, Robert Mirto. This information was eventually passed to John Cassidento, a strong supporter of the Democratic Party. He did not tell the authorities but did pass this information onto Larry O’Brien. The Democrats now knew that people like E.Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy were involved in the Watergate break-in.

As Edward Jay Epstein has pointed out: "By checking through the records of phone calls made from this listening post, the FBI easily located Alfred Baldwin, a former FBI agent, who had kept logs of wiretaps for the conspirators and acted as a look-out." On 25th June, Baldwin agreed to cooperate in order to avoid the grand-jury looking into the case.

Robert Mirto and John Cassidento also arranged for Baldwin to talk to the press. He was interviewed by Jack Nelson and the article was published in the Los Angeles Times on 4th October, 1972.

In 1974 Alfred Baldwin became a teacher. This included teaching at the Southern Connecticut State University. He also served as an Assistant State Attorney Prosecutor (1986 to 1996).

Alfred C. Baldwin retired in 1996 and now lives in Vero Beach, Florida.

JS: Did you know James W. McCord before he recruited you in 1972?

AB: Prior to 1972 I did not know James McCord, but I was aware of the fact that he was a former Special Agent with the FBI.

JS: Did you know any of the following before 1972: Anthony Ulasewicz, Douglas Caddy, Carmine Bellino, Tim Gratz, Jack Caulfield, E. Howard Hunt, Lou Russell, Donald Segretti and G. Gordon Liddy?

AB: No

JS: Did you do any work for Operation Gemstone or Operation Sandwedge before the Watergate break-in?

AB: You will have to define operation Gemstone. The files I complied were referred to as Gemstone. No with respect to Operation Sandwedge.

JS: Gemstone was the operation being run by James McCord/Gordon Liddy. Sandwedge was the operation being run by Jack Caulfield/Anthony Ulasewicz. It seems that Gemstone concerned itself with fairly low level matters. Sandwedge on the other hand, dealt with the more serious issues, such as taking Edward Kennedy and George Wallace out of the 1972 presidential election. My view is that Nixon took the rap on Gemstone in order to avoid the more serious crimes associated with Sandwedge.

AB: I never did any work for Operation Gemstone or Sandwedge. The only knowledge I have of Gemstone is that was the name assigned to all the "logs" that were being typed with respect to overheard conversations at the DNC.

JS: Are you aware of the real reason why the Watergate offices were burgled?

AB: I have my own personal opinion based on my conversations with McCord at that time, and I should add this opinion hasn't changed in any way even with all the information and data that has come forth since 1972.

JS: I would be very interested to hear what your opinion is on this matter.

AB: I am not sure that anyone can answer the question as to "the real reason why the Watergate offices were burglarized". I do know that one of the reasons was to correct one of the listening devices that was not transmitting. One has to remember that it was known to all that O'Brien was not in D.C. and would be out of town for several months. Thus no one can truly assert that the device in O'Brien's office had to be corrected unless that devise was in O'Brien's office but was there for a different purpose. I also know that the devise in Spencer Oliver’s office that was working was being left in place. As to other reasons, I am still awaiting Jim McCord's answers before I elaborate further.

JS: Gordon Liddy later claimed that the real reason for the second break-in was “to find out what O’Brien had of a derogatory nature about us, not for us to get something on him.” Is that your understanding of the situation as well?

AB: Gordon can state whatever he wants. I worked for McCord who may not have Liddy's viewpoint.

JS: On 17th June, 1972, Frank Sturgis, Virgilio Gonzalez, Eugenio Martinez, Bernard L. Barker and James W. McCord returned to O'Brien's office. It was your job to observe the operation from his hotel room. I believe that when you saw the police walking up the stairwell steps you radioed a warning. However, Barker had turned off his walkie-talkie and you were unable to make contact with the burglars. Is that correct?

AB: I really cannot make a judgement call on what Mr. Baker did or didn't do because my communications where with McCord. Now if McCord gave his unit to Baker your statement might be relevant.

JS: Is it true that when E.Howard Hunt arrived at your hotel room he made a phone call to Douglas Caddy?

AB: Hunt on arriving at my room did make a call to someone who I realized was a lawyer due to the nature of the conversation coming from Hunt. No name was ever used so I can not name that person.

JS: It became your job to eavesdrop the phone calls. I believe that over a 20 day period you listened to over 200 phone calls. Could you explain the sort of information that McCord was looking for.

AB: Regarding the nature of the material being collected from those wire-taps the courts have "sealed" the records and the only thing that I am allowed to say is that the "explicitly intimate" contents may not be publicly divulged.

JS: Were you ever approached by Mr. Woodward or Mr. Bernstein during the early to mid seventies to go on or off the record? Did you ever know either of them? Do you believe Mark Felt was Deep Throat? Why did you assent to an interview with the Los Angeles Times?

AB: I was never directly approached by either Woodward or Bernsten, however, I did learn at a latter date that they had contacted my lawyers who refused to have anything to do with them for reaons that were never disclosed to me. Thus I can say that I did not know either of them. As to whethern or not Mark Felt was Deep Throat I can honestly say that I have my doubts especially since I had been in contact with the FBI in July, 1972 yet there is no mention of me by either Bernstein or Woodward in he early (post July, 1972) days. So if Felt was reading all the FBI 302s (interview reports) why didn't he alert those writers to the act that John Mitchell had been named in my very first interview with the FBI, So in July 1972 the government had a "trail" to Mitchell, which would have been termendius news at that period of time. Lastly, believe it or not the interview was given to the Los Angeles Times reporters (two of them) for basically two reason. The first was that they were present on a daily basis at my lawyer's office in West Haven, Connecticut for weeks into months presenting themselves by saying that "if and when he (myself) decides to tell his story they would be present to take it". The second reason was they were perfect gentlemen and never pressed the issue and agreeded to print everything that I said with no exceptions, deletions, or comments. Their honsty and sincerity impressed me, and my lawyers knew that I had "been left out to hang in the wind with no support or backing from anyone in Washington, D.C.". Then add the fact that I had been told " you won't find a job anywhere, not even driving a truck" and you have the partial answer to that interview with those reporters.


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Douglas Caddy

Douglas Caddy was born in 1938. He was educated at Georgetown University School of Foreign Service (B.S. degree) and New York University School of Law (J.D. degree).

While a student he developed right-wing opinions and as a teenager became a strong supporter of Barry Goldwater. In 1960 Caddy established the "Youth for Goldwater" organization. Caddy came under the influence of Marvin Liebman, a former member of the American Communist Party who had been dishonorably discharged from the United States Army for homosexuality.

In September, 1960, Caddy, Liebman and William F. Buckley established the far right group, Young Americans for Freedom (YAF). The first meeting was held at Buckley's home in Sharon, Connecticut. Caddy became YAF's first president. Its first national council included eleven members of the John Birch Society. The main mission of the YAF was to “prepare young people for the struggle ahead with Liberalism, Socialism and Communism”.

After graduating from New York University School of Law in 1966 Caddy went to work for General Foods Corporation in White Plains, New York. In 1969 Caddy was transferred to corporate headquarters in Washington. According to Caddy: "The corporate plan was to open an office for Washington representation a year later. Meanwhile, I was ordered as an employee to work out of the public affairs firm of Robert Mullen and Co., which General Foods had retained for decades." Caddy met E. Howard Hunt after he joined the staff of Robert Mullen, being recommended by Richard Helms, then director of the CIA.

Caddy left General Foods and joined the Washington Law firm of Gall, Lane, Powell and Kilcullen. In 1970 E. Howard Hunt became a client of the company. When Charles Colson invited Hunt to join the White House staff in 1971, Caddy provided him with a character reference.

Caddy, who was an active member of the Republican Party, doing volunteer legal work for Richard Nixon. In March 1972 he had a meeting with John Dean. Over the next four months he performed a number of legal tasks connected with Nixon presidential campaign assigned to him by Dean's office. Caddy also did work for G. Gordon Liddy, the counsel for the finance committee of the Committee to Re-elect the President (CREEP).

On the 17th June, 1972, Frank Sturgis, Virgilio Gonzalez, Eugenio Martinez, Bernard L. Barker and James W. McCord were arrested while in the Democratic Party headquarters in Watergate. Soon afterwards, E. Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy contacted Caddy for help. Caddy arranged for another attorney, Joseph Rafferty, to meet him in the next morning in the courtroom. Later that day Caddy and Rafferty arranged to represent Sturgis, Gonzalez, Martinez, Barker, McCord, Hunt and Liddy.

Eleven days later Caddy was instructed to appear before the Grand Jury. Caddy answered some of the questions but refused to reply to those he claimed "involved the attorney-client, which protects confidential and legitimate communications between an attorney and his client."

On 10th July, 1972, Earl J. Silbert filed a "motion to Compel Testimony of Grand Jury Witness Michael Douglas Caddy. At issue were 38 key questions that Caddy refused to answer. According to Caddy, these "38 questions was to attempt through my lips as their defense attorney to implicate and incriminate Hunt and Liddy in the break-in." On 13th July, Caddy once again refused to answer these questions and therefore John J. Sirica sent him to prison.

Caddy was soon released and on 19th July, 1972, Caddy appeared before the Grand Jury and answered all the questions he was asked. He was surprised that he was never questioned about his relationship with John Dean, G. Gordon Liddy, E. Howard Hunt and the White House before the Watergate break-in.

Strangely he was never asked to testify before Sam Ervin and the Senate Watergate Committee. However, when Herbert W. Kalmbach was interviewed it was discovered that Caddy had rejected attempts by Anthony Ulasewicz to pay "hush money" to his clients.

In 1984 Caddy became a lawyer for Billie Sol Estes. On 9th August, 1984, Caddy wrote to Stephen S. Trott at the U.S. Department of Justice. In the letter Caddy claimed that Estes, Lyndon B. Johnson, Mac Wallace and Cliff Carter had been involved in the murders of Henry Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Orr, Ike Rogers, Coleman Wade, Josefa Johnson, John Kinser and John F. Kennedy. Caddy added: "Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders."

In recent years Douglas Caddy has moved to the left. He describes himself as a "progressive-liberal" who supported Al Gore for President in 2000 and Howard Dean for President in 2004 and belongs to People for the American Way (ACLU).

JS: In September, 1960, you joined forces with Marvin Liebman and William F. Buckley to establish the right-wing Young Americans for Freedom (YAF). Do you still hold right-wing views?

DC: I have been portrayed as a super right-winger when in fact today I am a progressive-liberal who supported Al Gore for President in 2000 and Howard Dean for President in 2004 and belong to People for the American Way, ACLU, and other organizations of similar character. It is true that one time I was pretty conservative, being involved in launching the modern conservative movement in the 1950s and '60s, but I later came to realize that the movement had been hijacked by sociopaths and opportunists. I have not voted for a GOP presidential candidate since 1984.

My political philosophy has always been that the American eagle needs two strong wings to fly. At one time in the 1950s and '60s the eagle was tilted somewhat too much to its left wing. However, at the present time the eagle is dangerously weighted in favor of its right wing, so much so that its very survival as a symbol of liberty and democracy is at risk.

JS: Could you explain in more detail what you mean by the phrase that the conservative movement in "had been hijacked by sociopaths and opportunists"?

DC: I became active politically while still in high school in New Orleans in the early 1950's. Later, as a student at Georgetown University, I helped organize the National Student Committee for the Loyalty Oath in 1959. This led to the creation of Youth for Goldwater for Vice President in early 1960 and later that year to Young Americans for Freedom. This was the genesis of the modern conservative movement in the United States.

In 1961 the first mass conservative rally, sponsored by YAF, was held in Manhattan Center in New York City. The next year an even larger rally was held in Madison Square Garden.

If I were to pinpoint when the conservative movement was first hijacked by sociopaths, I would say it took place in 1974, just after President Nixon was forced to resign. His resignation opened the way for the sociopaths to take over.

In late 1974, the board of directors of the Schuchman Foundation met. Robert Schuchman was the first national chairman of YAF. In attendance at the meeting, in addition to the foundation?s directors, were Edwin Feulner, Paul Weyrich and Joseph Coors. Coors, president of Coors Beer Company, told the foundation directors that unless they did exactly what he and Feulner and Weyrich directed them to do, he would destroy them and their organization.

The Schuchman Foundation directors brushed aside Coors? threat. Shortly thereafter, Coors, Feulner and Weyrich organized the Heritage Foundation and the Committee for a Free Congress. The latter two organizations, extremely well funded in the last 30 years, have crafted the national legislation and federal regulations that have enriched the wealthy and crucified the poor and disabled in America.

Since 1974 the conservative movement and the Republican Party, dominated by sociopaths with no social conscience whatsoever, have successfully engaged in what I call "The Politics of Death."

In addition to the sociopaths, a large group of opportunists moved into the conservative movement and the GOP and gained power. The emerging Abramoff lobbying scandal, which leads directly to members of Congress and to the White House, is an example of this opportunism.

Before this scandal has run its course, other opportunists such as the hypocritical Christian leader Ralph Reed and his cohorts will be exposed for sacrificing the public good for their personal gain.

JS: I believe in the past you represented Billie Sol Estes. On 9th August, 1984, you wrote to Stephen S. Trott at the U.S. Department of Justice. In the letter you claimed that Billie Sol Estes, Lyndon B. Johnson, Mac Wallace and Cliff Carter had been involved in the murders of Henry Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Orr, Ike Rogers, Coleman Wade, Josefa Johnson, John Kinser and John F. Kennedy. You added: "Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders." Did Billie Sol Estes provide you with any evidence that suggested his story was true?

DC: My relationship with Billie Sol Estes began in 1983 when Shearn Moody, a trustee of the Moody Foundation of Galveston, Texas, asked me to visit Billie Sol who was incarcerated in the federal prison at Big Spring, Texas. Billie Sol had telephoned Mr. Moody at the suggestion of a fellow inmate who knew Moody from past days when that inmate had been a lobbyist in the state capital. Billie Sol told Moody that he wanted to tell the story publicly about his long and close relationship with Lyndon Johnson (LBJ) as LBJ?s bagman and requested Moody's assistance in getting this done. Moody was happy to oblige.

I met with Billie Sol in prison, who related his desire to tell all. I suggested that he do so in book form and that I would be helpful in any way that I could since I already had two books published.

Moody and I heard nothing more from Billie Sol until soon after his release from prison in early January 1984. At that time he called Moody and Moody again asked me to visit Billie Sol at the latter's home in Abilene, Texas.

There Billie Sol presented me with a copy of the recently released book that his daughter, Pam Estes, had written based on my suggestion to him when he was in prison. Its title was "Billie Sol: King of the Wheeler-Dealers" and it had caused a minor sensation. Based on its limited success, Billie Sol said that he wanted to have his own story published. His daughter's book only told her personal story of the tribulations of the Estes' family in the preceding 20 years.

However, Billie Sol said that before he could tell his full story in book form that he had to get immunity from prosecution by the Texas law authorities and by the U.S. Department of Justice as there is no statute of limitations for murder. A friend of mine, Edward Miller, a former Assistant Director of the FBI, arranged for Miller and myself to meet with Stephen Trott, Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division of the Justice Department, to discuss the question of granting immunity to Billie Sol.

Miller and I met with Trott several times. The Forum has already in its discussions among its members remarked upon the letters exchanged between Trott and myself. In the end the immunity effort came to an abrupt halt when Billie Sol got cold feet at the last moment and backed out of a meeting with three FBI agents sent by Trott to meet with him and myself in Abilene in September 1984.

The contents of the letters between Trott and myself speak for themselves. Billie Sol did not provide me with any evidence that his story, as detailed in the letters, was true. I never heard nor saw the clandestine tape recordings that he claimed that he had in his possession that had been made years earlier, which allegedly supported his contentions.

However, there is quite a bit of supporting evidence from other sources. This is as follows:

(1) In 1964, J. Evetts Haley, a distinguished Texas historian, wrote "A Texan Looks at Lyndon."

Millions of copies of this paperback were widely distributed. Haley's book provided concrete evidence concerning most of the murders outlined in my correspondence with Trott.

(2) In attempting to get Billie Sol immunity in 1984, I worked closely with Clint Peoples, U.S. Marshal for the Northern District of Texas. Peoples had followed the Estes' story for many years, having been assigned to the Estes' pending criminal case in the 1960's when he was a Texas Ranger. Peoples had several large file drawers containing materials about Estes and the murders that he showed me when I visited him in the U.S. Courthouse in Dallas. He was on good terms with Estes and constantly encouraged me to do my best to get Estes' story out. When he retired he became head of the Texas Rangers Museum in Waco, Texas, and in 1992 was killed in an automobile accident. Where Peoples' extensive files on Estes and the murders are today is unknown.

(3) I arranged for Lucianne Goldberg, then a literary agent and now sponsor of http://www.lucianne.com/, to visit Billie Sol in Abilene in 1984 in an effort to get his story published. Lucianne there disclosed to us that she had once met Malcolm (Mac) Wallace, who was the stone-cold killer retained by LBJ, when she had worked in the White House in LBJ's administration.

(4) The Texas Observer, a highly respected journal of opinion, published a thoroughly researched article by Bill Adler in its November 7, 1986 issue titled, "The Killing of Henry Marshall." The article is required reading for anyone interested in the murders.

(5) In 1998, a video titled "LBJ: A Closer Look" was released, having been produced by two Californians, Lyle and Theresa Sardie. The video contains interviews with key persons who knew of the murders and of the LBJ-Billie Sol connection.

(6) In 2003, the book "Blood, Money & Power: How LBJ murdered JFK" was published. Its author is Barr McClellan, father of Bush's current press secretary in the White House, Scott McClellan. Barr McClellan was a lawyer with the law firm in Austin that handled LBJ's secret financial empire before and after he became President.

(7) Also in 2003, the History Channel showed "The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Final Chapter." Much of this show drew on McClellan's book and my letters to Trott. After it was telecast several times, immense pressure was brought upon the History Channel to withdraw the video from being offered for sale to the public. For the first time in its own history the History Channel succumbed to this outside pressure that was orchestrated by Jack Valenti, head of the Motion Pictures Association of America and former LBJ aide, and reluctantly withdrew the video from public circulation.

(8) Both Barr McClellan and I, among others, have in our possession documents and papers, too numerous and lengthy to detail here, that help to round out the full LBJ-Billie Sol story, including letters from LBJ to Billie Sol.

JS: Do you believe the allegations Billie Sol made concerning Mac Wallace?

DC: I do believe that the allegations about Malcolm (Mac) Wallace made by Billie Sol are well-founded, based on documents that I have read. I should add that my strongest reason for so believing is that U.S. Marshal Clint Peoples told me that he had learned of Wallace's involvement from his own investigation long before Billie Sol retained my legal services.

JS: Was the Mullen Company a front for the CIA so 'cover' could be given to agents? If so, did you continue to have any contact with the agency after leaving Mullen, were you any kind of an asset for the purposes of domestic or foreign intelligence?

DC: The Mullen Company was a front cover for the CIA and, in fact, had been organized as an entity by the CIA. Its CIA background was disclosed in Senator Howard Baker's supplemental statement to the Senate Watergate Committee's final report. I have never been employed by the CIA or any other intelligence organization. I did at one time join the Association of Former Intelligence Officers as an Associate Member by paying a one year's dues of $10 but did so because I was interested in receiving materials published by the organization. I never attended any of its meetings or met anyone associated with the organization.

One day Robert Mullen's secretary told me that he was on the phone and wanted to talk to me. When I talked to him he told me that he was in Chile. (I knew that he had been out of the office for a few days but not where he was). He said that he was in Chile doing public relations and media work in fomenting opposition to President Allende. Of course, we all know now that Allende was later killed. Apparently, America likes to see Democracy flourish in a foreign country only so long as it controls who is in charge of that country's destiny.

I do not know why Mullen chose to tell me this other than to impress me. It certainly piqued my interest at the time but not enough for me to make the mental leap that the Mullen Company was actually a CIA front.

JS: Did your association with the Mullen company, Howard Hunt and other Watergate individuals lead you to any contacts that brought on your representation of Billie Sol Estes?

DC: I never had any contact with the Mullen Company after I left employment by General Foods other than my legal representation of Howard Hunt, who was a Mullen employee. Robert Bennett, now Senator Robert Bennett of Utah, apparently was misquoted by Woodward-Bernstein in the Washington Post after Watergate broke about my time at Mullen. He subsequently wrote me a letter of explanation. Bennett, a Mormon, had purchased the Mullen Company from Robert Mullen, apparently at the CIA's direction, about the time I left General Foods to join a law firm in Washington.

JS: Did you ever work for the CIA?

DC: While it is true that I have never worked for the CIA or any intelligence agency, I need to add that I was approached at one time to work for the CIA. This event occurred about three months before Watergate broke open in June 1972. Howard Hunt asked me to join him and a Mr. Huston (I think the name was Larry Huston), who was general counsel for the CIA. Hunt drove me to a restaurant/bar not far from the CIA headquarters where we met Huston.

The purpose of the meeting was to ascertain whether I would be interested in working for the CIA. If I were interested, the CIA wanted me to oversee the building of a luxurious hotel on the coast of Nicaragua. After it was constructed, I would be in charge of the building, which apparently would be used to lure the country's socialist politicians there to get to know more about them.

I told Hunt and Huston that I would think about it but never pursued it any further. Of course, when the Watergate scandal evolved, it became obvious that my role as an attorney in that criminal case precluded me from ever being an asset to the CIA in its operations.

JS: What is your opinion of William F. Buckley?

DC: William F. Buckley is, of course, the person most responsible for legitimizing the modern conservative movement. I think he must be in some pain these days as it has not turned out as he had planned. In that sense he is a captive of his significant role in history, as it would almost be impossible for him to denounce the movement that he brought into existence even though it has taken on the trappings of a police state mentality with worldwide ambitions.

JS: Do you think that the car accident sustained by former Texas Ranger Clint Peoples was murder?

DC: I find the automobile accident that killed Clint Peoples to be highly suspicious. It is my understanding that he had been scheduled two days after the date of the accident to interview Billie Sol on video in great detail about all the murders. Peoples, from his days as a Texas Ranger, had a unmatched grasp of the facts in all the murders.

JS: Is there any legal chance of the investigation of the Henry Marshall murder being reopened?

DC: In my opinion there is virtually no chance that any of the murders, including that of Henry Marshall, will ever be investigated further. LBJ, Cliff Carter, Mac Wallace, and Clint Peoples are no longer alive. This does not mean that the historical record should not be set straight (forgive the double negative), which is what you are doing at the present time through the Forum.

Robert Caro's final biographical volume on LBJ has yet to be published. I have heard conflicting reports whether it will cover the murders or not. In 1986, I talked to Caro briefly when he gave a speech at the University of Houston about architecture, a subject in which he was absorbed. I asked him afterwards if he was going to include Mac Wallace in his LBJ book. He looked startled and grabbed me by my lapels and asked me for my business card. He obviously was interested in Wallace but I heard nothing further from him.

JS: What was the Young Americans for Freedom position on civil rights legislation in 1960?

DC: Civil Rights was not topic on the agenda of Young Americans for Freedom in 1960. My recollection is that it was not a topic on the agenda of Conservatives or Republicans until President Johnson initiated his civil rights legislation from 1964 to 1968. Then the Conservatives and the GOP united to oppose the legislation. Senator Goldwater was outspoken against the proposed legislation.

I, myself, was not immune. In 1962 I hosted a reception for Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, the presidential candidate for the Dixiecrat Party in 1948, at the residence I shared with Tong Sun Park in the Georgetown section of Washington.

Looking back, I can only say to myself, "Where was my mind?"

A number of conservatives came to regret their opposition to civil rights. I remember how James Jackson Kilpatrick, a national conservative columnist and one-time editor of the Richmond (Virginia) News-Leader, wrote in his later years what a mistake steeped in human tragedy it was that he and the conservative movement failed to recognize the legitimacy of civil rights legislation.

Louis Auchincloss, the wall street lawyer and author of many novels based on the elite WASP society, also was to write how he suddenly awoke and realized how wrong the conservatives were in some of their policy stands.

Later I attempted to make amends. From 1980-81 I served as Director of Elections for the State of Texas in the first administration of GOP Governor William Clements. I used my position to make certain that the votes of African-Americans and Hispanics were correctly counted in the elections conducted in the 254 counties comprising Texas.

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