The Southern Half of Dealey Plaza

[John Dolva]

In the hope of one day seeing the missing bits of the cancellare photo, and to be able to ask William 'Tosh' Plumlee where he stood, could someone post a photo that will help match up these two photo's?

[William Plumlee]

In the hope of one day seeing the missing bits of the cancellare photo, and to be able to ask William 'Tosh' Plumlee where he stood, could someone post a photo that will help match up these two photo's?

John: This was writen back in Oct 2004 by me. it may still be valid today in view of the "south knoll photo".

But first. Do you have a good picture of the cancellare photo? The ones that have been published will do for what you have asked.

... the left side of the picture above the top of the car in the shadows, about half way up the hill to the right of the steps a few feet. You can see the shadow of a fork in the tree and if you look close you can see objects of different contrast that brake the shadow line of the trees on the right side of the fork tree shadow and on the left side of the tree shadow. Some people thing the fork tree shadow are legs. This is not the case. As for as the man in the truck we saw him as we left the plaza. Traffic was stoped. This spot where I have said we were has been marked for researchers many many times and has been printed in books and on this form. Perhaps some would like to post the location and a blow up for you. I have no way of posting pictures nor do I have a copy with me.

The two photos you have posted.., the one on the right almost shows where we were standing..., you have cut out the forked tree shadow above the car behind the standing man, when you merged the two pictures hope this helps you.

Previous posting on this forum as to this Photo.., approx Oct 2004:

"... I have read most of the material that has been presented on this thread about the lights and shadows, a person there.., a person not there..., why he was there and why he was not there. All seem to present good points in their arguments. But all is just wild speculations as far as I am concern. Some have become so entrenched in their work that this subject matter has become their main focal point and they have become blinded to others valid points or none valid points and miss the whole picture. JFK was EXECUTED, in public. There is no simple answer. And lights and shadows, people there, and people not there brings us no closer to the truth, or identification, of who shot him, or how many additional shooters there were, if any.

Now I will throw my spuculations into the fray.

(1) I do not believe that there was a shooter anywhere near the north knoll; behind a fence; on a car hood; in the parking lot; behind a wall. I do not care what the "Experts" say. They have not proven their case to me beyond a resonable doubt. That goes for the South Knoll as well as the North Knoll locations.

Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.

(2) I do not believe that a professional snipper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.

(3) I was there. I helped Sergio spot for that type of stuff. And there were others, from our team, who were at the North Knoll. I have been told by the expert researchers, over the years, that they (my team) were part of the assassination team and that I was also. B.S. That too, is speculation or their part and not a proven fact. I have never said that I know all the facts behind the assassination. But, I damn well know a few of them. If we had tried to interfer with the assins and "Take them out" , as some have said (if we had found them) Then a lot of innocent people would have been killed or hurt that day and the OPS and the background information of how it was obtained would have been compromised. It would have been a blood bath in the plaza. Our job was to interupt their timing and remain "in the background" None of this was to ever be known by the public. It was a military Covert Ops. Anyone ever associated with that type of warfare knows what that means.

I hope this helps.. Its not meant to be critical. Thanks for all the information. Tosh...". end of previous post.

Edited June 13, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

William, I will carefully study this and try to get my understanding right. In the meantime::

You know how when you stand somewhere and are aware of your surroundings, you get a kind of spatial sense of where things are even if you are not actually looking at them. For example, you may sense where the top of the post office is and if need be can quickly turn you head and orient to look in that particular direction.

I found the topic on Smitty fascinating as some time before becoming aware of a assassination research community I was reading a history of the early pre dunkirk Royal Air Force. Specifically about the British Expeditionary Force in France.(it may have been the 74'th) Into the squadron came an american flyer from the china theatre who taught them a trick that saved many lives. He got the squad together for a group photo and had someone go to the rear of the group and on signal which coincided with the photo being taken, fire a gun. By pointing out that irrsespective of where the people in the group were in relation to the gun firing behind them, they all turned to look over their right shoulder. Knowing this, as the german pilots already knew and consequently were sneaking up on the left, meant now they could break this advantage.

All that in mind. When you say a shot may have came from somewhere ...... Where did you sense this somewhere to be?

[William Plumlee]

William, I will carefully study this and try to get my understanding right. In the meantime::

You know how when you stand somewhere and are aware of your surroundings, you get a kind of spatial sense of where things are even if you are not actually looking at them. For example, you may sense where the top of the post office is and if need be can quickly turn you head and orient to look in that particular direction.

I found the topic on Smitty fascinating as some time before becoming aware of a assassination research community I was reading a history of the early pre dunkirk Royal Air Force. Specifically about the British Expeditionary Force in France.(it may have been the 74'th) Into the squadron came an american flyer from the china theatre who taught them a trick that saved many lives. He got the squad together for a group photo and had someone go to the rear of the group and on signal which coincided with the photo being taken, fire a gun. By pointing out that irrsespective of where the people in the group were in relation to the gun firing behind them, they all turned to look over their right shoulder. Knowing this, as the german pilots already knew and consequently were sneaking up on the left, meant now they could break this advantage.

All that in mind. When you say a shot may have came from somewhere ...... Where did you sense this somewhere to be?

John:

To our left approx 45 degrees behind us, near the parking lot or rail road tracks. ., in that vacinity.

[John Dolva]

I've previously estimated what Kennedy's head would have looked like from roughly that location.

[William Plumlee]

I've previously estimated what Kennedy's head would have looked like from roughly that location.

John: I have a hard time making out your lines of fire. Did you allow for the slight curve and downgrade in the street toward the south and the hight of the shooter above the limo. Was it the first shoot or the second where his head was. Just speculating on my part. Your doing good work. Your making people think. And thats a plus now days as to this subject matter.

Edited June 13, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

This estimate is for the just before 313 shot. I stress estimate. Also I have not worked out location of obstacles. It's doable though.

What I did was to take a head viwed from Zapruders position and use his line of sight as z axis rotate it to this location, then rotate around that position to get that ESTIMATE. I think that if one had precise figures worked out by someone it is possible to get a very exact view.

[John Dolva]

The cancellare that I know is from this site:

http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/photos.html

William, see the blue dot below the x and y? How close is the centre of that dot to where you were standing?

[William Plumlee]

[William, see the blue dot below the x and y? How close is the centre of that dot to where you were standing?

The Cancellare that I know is from this site:

http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/photos.html

John: you are at about the right spot. (blue) The light post from the south knoll to the north side in the old pictures were almost in a stright line from where we were standing to the kill zone. I was told some years later a few of those light post were moved or relocated...why I do not know.

you might want to go to this site and take a look at the full un crop of the Cancellare photo:

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/southknoll.htm

as well as these other photos:

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/dpmap63.htm

Note; the X marked in the top photo is wrong we were up (east) from this location.., near the steps. This has never been corrected. Tom Wilson said, some years ago, this X was where he saw a shooter in his enhancement work on the Cancellare nagative. Plumlee was marked at this location by mistake, so I was told.

Also note: I do not support this site or its conclutions:

The forked tree I have spoke of can be seen in the first photo. (Cancellare) It is directly above the standing man to the left of the photogapher and above the car top.., left side of picture. To the left of this fork tree shadow and to the right and left of this tree trunk shadow is where we were standing. ( notice light objects and contrast on each side of tree trunk shadow) Notice the light poles and the sidewalk steps. also notice the square photo blow up of this area at bottom of picture.

Also on your photo notice the light pole shadow and the light post to the left upper of that one and the next one beyond your crop is about where the kill zone was and where Kennedy was hit.

Edited June 14, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

William, it wouldn't surprise me if the cropped areas can be found with resolution to match the cropped version at

then one should be able to see what is going on in that area. The deatil of description of what was there sounds reasonable.

I wonder if it is remembered how much larger the original was?

Just a bit more to pin down the location, please.

"The forked tree I have spoke of can be seen in the first photo. (Cancellare) It is directly above the standing man to the left of the photogapher and above the car top.., left side of picture. To the left of this fork tree shadow and to the right and left of this tree trunk shadow is where we were standing. ( notice light objects and contrast on each side of tree trunk shadow) Notice the light poles and the sidewalk steps. also notice the square photo blow up of this area at bottom of picture.

Also on your photo notice the light pole shadow and the light post to the left upper of that one and the next one beyond your crop is about where the kill zone was and where Kennedy was hit."

Edited June 14, 2006 by John Dolva

[William Plumlee]

William, it wouldn't surprise me if the cropped areas can be found with resolution to match the cropped version at

then one should be able to see what is going on in that area. The deatil of description of what was there sounds reasonable.

I wonder if it is remembered how much larger the original was?

"...Just a bit more to pin down the location, please. ...",

In your last picture: We were almost in line with light post D; B' A' standing about three feet from sidewalk (west) and about half way up the hill (south) which is approx 15 feet from light post D. (note the sidewalk landings... we were standing on the hill between the two sidewalk landings about three feet west of the sidewalks)

Look at light post B. That is the one that was moved some years ago when they re positioned the lights. (this post was moved about 10 feet east. The others stayed in position) The older pictures show the post line up from our position to the hit area. D; B; A; Hope this helps you.

Edited June 14, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

Here I see the lampost at j2 to j7. I'm not familiar with what it should look like (any pic to fill in the gap would be helpful) so I can't see the landings. Going by description as I understand, is it you at about efg-456

Edited June 14, 2006 by John Dolva

[William Plumlee]

Here I see the lampost at j2 to j7. I'm not familiar with what it should look like (any pic to fill in the gap would be helpful) so I can't see the landings. Going by description as I understand, is it you at about efg-456

ReplyL: F-5/6 (5 upper center right and left and cornor.. left and right and a little above of shadow tree trunk and shadowed fork of tree) the sidewalk shows in one of your over heads approx X and Y steps going up the hill..... the contrast of the shadows is broken or lighter in this region.

overhead of plaza: (from where 'race track marker' is located we were standing to the left of this in the shadows) ...you can blow up image for better view.

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/5255.jpg

Edited June 14, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

William, may I say thank you for your patience in this. I, and no doubt others are grateful to have these things clarified.

as I understand it:

You were in this location (F 5,6) at the time of the headshot. Some short while later the photo in question was taken.

IF it was taken after you started to move anywhere. How did you move for the next 20 odd meters (yards?)?

The cancellares available are of varying quality. The one that has the relevant area neatly cropped is good enough to see a lot of subtlety in detail. The one that fills in some of the crop is of poor resolution and is merely suggestive. There certainly appears to be people there, (far more so than any of the photos showing people at the grassy knoll or the TSBD windows). So hopefully the full cancellare is still around somewhere.

However the aim of this thread is to establish a benchmark to use in future investigation, (ie id your location). Can you make some comments about gross physical features, of you and your partner? Shade of clothing, tie, hat, beard, sunglasses etc, please?

[William Plumlee]

"...Can you make some comments about gross physical features, of you and your partner? Shade of clothing, tie, hat, beard, sunglasses etc, please?

John:

At the time of the shots we were a little futher up the hill (ten feet) east and about at the steps. (south of where the picture was taken) The picture was taken about 30 to 60 seconds after the shoots. We had walked down to the tree area when the picture was taken. We continued along the hill toward the tripple underpass. We passed the man in the pick up and something was said like, " It looks bad", We crossed over the RR Tracks on the south side of the underpass and down the hill on the other side.

I will let Peter Lemkin, a member of this forum explain what I said as to what we were waring and how we were dressed, you if he will. This was all detailed to him and a photo expert many years ago. It became a matter of confirmation and I understand the details of what I told then was confirmed by sofeware photo analysas. However, Its best to let Pete explain this to you and others in detail if he would.

Thanks for your work on this. I hope I have been of some help to you and others.

Edited June 15, 2006 by William Plumlee