The hit on Society.

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra, this is a big problem (IMO). Kennedy had hoped to see success in 63. Towards the end he saw it still as something that could go through in his first presidency. At last, he realised that he needed another term and he was, and made no bones about it, taking it to the 64 elections. A number of events were to happen late 63 like committee reports that would expose all the problems in education, travel. police impartiality, living choices, voting registration, one voter one vote, conditions in the USofA, were due and would guide the final draft. The segregationists launched a massive lobby campaign on many levels that reached a crescendo as the end of November approached. Kennedy was also cautious. He was after all president not just of the de-segregationists. He wanted unity, and MLK knew that.

In 1960, after named as Kennedy's running mate LBJ told a group of southern negro leaders that the last 100 years of waiting is indeed at last over. Before Kennedy was elected he went to Cora Kings aid as her husband was being very badly treated in some of the worst of the southern states. He hid nothing of this and his enemies knew him for what he stood for. The (usuccessful) Oxford insurrection, the terror camapaigns against 'the uppity n' in the south, was being dealt with by Kennedy (brothers) in no uncertain terms. When push came to shove, he let no one have any doubt of his intent.

After the assassination, the push for the passage of the 1963/64/65...bill was filibustered, attacked in any way possible. Amendments crept in, situations developed in tandem (note particularly the setting up of a separate education system in the south and all and any loophole advantage pursued that weakened the intent of the Bill as it first was proposed, and when the Bill (LBJ fullfilling his and the Kennedy's intent as far as it was possible) was passed, The Commander in Chief who would have stood his ground and given the Bill, as it was, the teeth it needed was dead.

Thank you for the summary John!

So, just to be hyper-clear, are you of the opinion that President Kennedy would have proposed civil rights legislation that was stronger than the legislation LBJ (ugh) ultimately implemented?

And are you saying that LBJ (...) compromised significantly on the legislation, which weakened it?

(Again, I haven't done the homework on this subject yet. I will...)

[John Dolva]

By shifting emphasis in what seems two questions, I see one question. My answer to that then is yes.

Not just that though, Kennedy himself was the teeth to ensure its strict implementation and adjustment to counter obvious moves to circumvent it. The following summers would probably have been cooler for everyone. (you probably know what I mean but just in case if you(or anyone) don't understand that play on words lookup(boolean)

"long hot summers" and "civil rights"

EDIT:: (I have (strictly personal) thing about me posting one liners and turning it into a chat room while others seek 'time to be heard' so without a scintilla of crticism to anyone who thinks otherwise, I do my usual : : Answer to below : Thank you, you're welcome.

Edited February 17, 2007 by John Dolva

[Myra Bronstein]

By shifting emphasis in what seems two questions, I see one question. My answer to that then is yes.

Not just that though, Kennedy himself was the teeth to ensure its strict implementation and adjustment to counter obvious moves to circumvent it. The following summers would probably have been cooler for everyone. (you probably know what I mean but just in case if you(or anyone) don't understand that play on words lookup(boolean)

"long hot summers" and "civil rights"

Thank you John.

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra, this is a big problem (IMO). Kennedy had hoped to see success in 63. Towards the end he saw it still as something that could go through in his first presidency. At last, he realised that he needed another term and he was, and made no bones about it, taking it to the 64 elections. A number of events were to happen late 63 like committee reports that would expose all the problems in education, travel. police impartiality, living choices, voting registration, one voter one vote, conditions in the USofA, were due and would guide the final draft. The segregationists launched a massive lobby campaign on many levels that reached a crescendo as the end of November approached. Kennedy was also cautious. He was after all president not just of the de-segregationists. He wanted unity, and MLK knew that.

In 1960, after named as Kennedy's running mate LBJ told a group of southern negro leaders that the last 100 years of waiting is indeed at last over. Before Kennedy was elected he went to Cora Kings aid as her husband was being very badly treated in some of the worst of the southern states. He hid nothing of this and his enemies knew him for what he stood for. The (usuccessful) Oxford insurrection, the terror camapaigns against 'the uppity n' in the south, was being dealt with by Kennedy (brothers) in no uncertain terms. When push came to shove, he let no one have any doubt of his intent.

After the assassination, the push for the passage of the 1963/64/65...bill was filibustered, attacked in any way possible. Amendments crept in, situations developed in tandem (note particularly the setting up of a separate education system in the south and all and any loophole advantage pursued that weakened the intent of the Bill as it first was proposed, and when the Bill (LBJ fullfilling his and the Kennedy's intent as far as it was possible) was passed, The Commander in Chief who would have stood his ground and given the Bill, as it was, the teeth it needed was dead.

Thank you for the summary John!

So, just to be hyper-clear, are you of the opinion that President Kennedy would have proposed civil rights legislation that was stronger than the legislation LBJ (ugh) ultimately implemented?

And are you saying that LBJ (...) compromised significantly on the legislation, which weakened it?

(Again, I haven't done the homework on this subject yet. I will...)

Follow up:

One of my research objectives has been to find out if the civil rights legislation LBJ got passed (and that people gush about in warm remembrances of the big ol' murderer) was actually Kennedy policy that LBJ appropriated. John's input was helpful, and yesterday I saw this:

"And it was Lyndon Johnson who, by his deft negotiating, managed to pass President Kennedy's civil rights legislation after his assassination."

http://www.wnbc.com/news/11095649/detail.html

Edited February 24, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[John Dolva]

Myra, it quite simply coulcn't be Kennedy's Civil Rights Bill that was passed. In spite of whatever wnbc has to say/write about it.

In the other posts I mentioned the committee findings that Kennedy had through various excecutive orders set in motion and was expecting by late 1963. These findings would help shape the final Bill. The assassination interrupted that process.

After this, the desegregationist forces went all out to filibuster, amend, and to set up alternative systems within which they could effectively nullify the eventual Bill.

LBJ passed his version of what started out as Kennedys Civil Rights Bill.

"And it was Lyndon Johnson who, by his deft negotiating, managed to pass President Kennedy's civil rights legislation after his assassination." is not right.

It came in 1965, not 'after the assassination' but after a passage of time during which many events unfolded which I am sure would have made "Kennedy's Civil Rights Bill" a different thing altogether to "LBJ's Civil Rights Bill", had Kennedy been alive.

Either way the Commander in Chief who (as he showed during the armed insurrection in Oxford Mississippi, where General Walker and Gov Barret called for an armed uprising, and for which Walker was arrested) had the will to carry through a Civil Rights Bill that would probably have made the following years less 'hot', was dead.

"LBJ's Civil Rights Bill" was passed. And he was a different man altogether.

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra, it quite simply coulcn't be Kennedy's Civil Rights Bill that was passed. In spite of whatever wnbc has to say/write about it.

In the other posts I mentioned the committee findings that Kennedy had through various excecutive orders set in motion and was expecting by late 1963. These findings would help shape the final Bill. The assassination interrupted that process.

After this, the desegregationist forces went all out to filibuster, amend, and to set up alternative systems within which they could effectively nullify the eventual Bill.

LBJ passed his version of what started out as Kennedys Civil Rights Bill.

"And it was Lyndon Johnson who, by his deft negotiating, managed to pass President Kennedy's civil rights legislation after his assassination." is not right.

It came in 1965, not 'after the assassination' but after a passage of time during which many events unfolded which I am sure would have made "Kennedy's Civil Rights Bill" a different thing altogether to "LBJ's Civil Rights Bill", had Kennedy been alive.

Either way the Commander in Chief who (as he showed during the armed insurrection in Oxford Mississippi, where General Walker and Gov Barret called for an armed uprising, and for which Walker was arrested) had the will to carry through a Civil Rights Bill that would probably have made the following years less 'hot', was dead.

"LBJ's Civil Rights Bill" was passed. And he was a different man altogether.

Oh. Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink in. Thanks for reiterating John.

Well, I need to do much more reading on this subject. It's hugely significant.

And I'm so tired of hearing people gush about what a great liberal LB friggen J was 'cause of his devotion to civil rights.

[John Dolva]

"I need to do much more reading on this subject. It's hugely significant."

Me too, and I agree.

I try to 'immerse' myself in the times in different ways, that hopefully helps me to see the truth thru the myths.

There are many movies ranging from very obscure ones like 'the Klansman' with Richard Burton and Lee Marvin.

To Kill a Mockingbird.

The Green Mile with Tom Hanks.

Mississippi Burning, and many others.

much of this is sanitised for various reasons.

Then there are the books and novels.

There is also a HUGE relevant of the times collection of documents at this site to look through that span the period from mid 50's to the 70's:

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents/er/sovcom/

[Michael Hogan]

Myra, it quite simply coulcn't be Kennedy's Civil Rights Bill that was passed. In spite of whatever wnbc has to say/write about it.

In the other posts I mentioned the committee findings that Kennedy had through various excecutive orders set in motion and was expecting by late 1963. These findings would help shape the final Bill. The assassination interrupted that process.

After this, the desegregationist forces went all out to filibuster, amend, and to set up alternative systems within which they could effectively nullify the eventual Bill.

LBJ passed his version of what started out as Kennedys Civil Rights Bill.

"And it was Lyndon Johnson who, by his deft negotiating, managed to pass President Kennedy's civil rights legislation after his assassination." is not right.

It came in 1965, (emphasis added) not 'after the assassination' but after a passage of time during which many events unfolded which I am sure would have made "Kennedy's Civil Rights Bill" a different thing altogether to "LBJ's Civil Rights Bill", had Kennedy been alive....

"The Civil Rights Act of 1964, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson on July 2, 1964, prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal. This document was the most sweeping civil rights legislation since Reconstruction."

http://www.historicaldocuments.com/CivilRightsAct1964.htm

It was the Voting Rights Act that was signed into law by Lyndon Johnson on August 6, 1965.

[John Dolva]

Allup, Kennedy's 1963 Civil Rights Bill, and the modifications that probably would have come in place if Kennedy had been alive to see the Bill trough congress, plus Kennedy himself overseeing its enforcement, was ended with the assassination.

"The Civil Rights Act of 1964 resulted from one of the most controversial House and Senate debates in history. It was also the biggest piece of civil rights legislation ever passed. The bill actually evolved from previous civil rights bills in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s. The bill passed through both houses finally on July 2, 1964 and was signed into law at 6:55 P.M. EST by President Lyndon Johnson. The act was originally drawn up in 1962 under President Kennedy before his assassination. The bill originated from two others, and one of which was the Equal Opportunity Act of 1962 that never went into law. This bill made up the core of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Bureau of National Affairs 18-20).

There were many groups involved in the process of drawing up the bill and helping it to become a law. The main groups for the passage of the bill were the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, industrial unions of the AFL-CIO, many church groups, the White House, the Justice Department, and many northern Democrats and Republicans. The major groups that were opposed to the bill were the Coordinating Committee for Fundamental American Freedoms funded greatly from Mississippi, and the Southern Democratic caucus (Bickel 17). These groups voiced their opinion and helped representatives decide how they should vote. The many groups involved crossed party lines to debate and vote for a bill to better America.

Any bill that becomes a law has to go through the House of Representatives and the Senate with a passing vote. The Civil Rights Bill easily passed the House with Northern Democrats and the Republican supporters turning out a vote of 290 to 130. Lyndon Johnson stated after the bill went through the house that it was, “Now a task for the Senate…I hope the same spirit of nonpartisanship will prevail there to assure passage of the bill, guaranteeing the fundamental rights of all Americans” (Kenworthy). The bill then went to the senate where there was much debate and procrastination. Many senators opposed to the bill tried to use the “filibuster” technique, which basically is an extended talk for the purpose of killing a bill or getting drastic modifications. In fact, it was the longest debate in Senate history lasting 534 hours in total. The final vote in the Senate was 76 to 18 to pass their version of the bill since they made minor amendments to it (Bureau of National Affairs 18-21). A quote from Senator John Lesinski, democrat, showed why some were opposed to the bill, “There are still many private rights in America that under our Constitution are beyond the power of government to regulate and one of these is the right to pick and chose one’s associates, one’s friends and one’s customers in a private business” (Calls Bill Unconstitutional 33). The final vote in the House over the amendments the senate made was 289 to 126. This set the way for the bill to be signed by the President to become a law."

Hugo Black (KKK) had applied a definition of what constitutes an individual. The Bill passed because the amendments allowed 'groupings' to be individuals and therefore could choose associations. IOW the teeth of the bill were if not thoroughly pulled they were modified so the original intent was changed. Hence it was eventually passed.

[John Dolva]

It's just not that simple. There are numerous websites lauding the passage of the Civil Rights Bill.

In the meantime the definition of what a public place or an educational institution is, becomes 'an individual' which had the rights of an individual under the constitution. At the same time a network of private educational institutions were set up.

The Bills original intent, as they were, was one thing. The final product another. The implementation another thing again.

Alongside of this was the terrorising of the negro voters that continued well past 1965.

Allup, Kennedy's 1963 Civil Rights Bill, and the modifications that probably would have come in place if Kennedy had been alive to see the Bill trough congress, plus Kennedy himself overseeing its enforcement, was ended with the assassination.

"The Civil Rights Act of 1964 resulted from one of the most controversial House and Senate debates in history. It was also the biggest piece of civil rights legislation ever passed. The bill actually evolved from previous civil rights bills in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s. The bill passed through both houses finally on July 2, 1964 and was signed into law at 6:55 P.M. EST by President Lyndon Johnson. The act was originally drawn up in 1962 under President Kennedy before his assassination. The bill originated from two others, and one of which was the Equal Opportunity Act of 1962 that never went into law. This bill made up the core of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Bureau of National Affairs 18-20).

There were many groups involved in the process of drawing up the bill and helping it to become a law. The main groups for the passage of the bill were the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, industrial unions of the AFL-CIO, many church groups, the White House, the Justice Department, and many northern Democrats and Republicans. The major groups that were opposed to the bill were the Coordinating Committee for Fundamental American Freedoms funded greatly from Mississippi, and the Southern Democratic caucus (Bickel 17). These groups voiced their opinion and helped representatives decide how they should vote. The many groups involved crossed party lines to debate and vote for a bill to better America.

Any bill that becomes a law has to go through the House of Representatives and the Senate with a passing vote. The Civil Rights Bill easily passed the House with Northern Democrats and the Republican supporters turning out a vote of 290 to 130. Lyndon Johnson stated after the bill went through the house that it was, “Now a task for the Senate…I hope the same spirit of nonpartisanship will prevail there to assure passage of the bill, guaranteeing the fundamental rights of all Americans” (Kenworthy). The bill then went to the senate where there was much debate and procrastination. Many senators opposed to the bill tried to use the “filibuster” technique, which basically is an extended talk for the purpose of killing a bill or getting drastic modifications. In fact, it was the longest debate in Senate history lasting 534 hours in total. The final vote in the Senate was 76 to 18 to pass their version of the bill since they made minor amendments to it (Bureau of National Affairs 18-21). A quote from Senator John Lesinski, democrat, showed why some were opposed to the bill, “There are still many private rights in America that under our Constitution are beyond the power of government to regulate and one of these is the right to pick and chose one’s associates, one’s friends and one’s customers in a private business” (Calls Bill Unconstitutional 33). The final vote in the House over the amendments the senate made was 289 to 126. This set the way for the bill to be signed by the President to become a law."

Hugo Black (KKK) had applied a definition of what constitutes an individual. The Bill passed because the amendments allowed 'groupings' to be individuals and therefore could choose associations. IOW the teeth of the bill were if not thoroughly pulled they were modified so the original intent was changed. Hence it was eventually passed.

Edited February 25, 2007 by John Dolva

[Michael Hogan]

It's just not that simple. There are numerous websites lauding the passage of the Civil Rights Bill.

Of course there are numerous websites with varying takes on the bill's passage. I did not post the link to that one because it was laudatory; rather because it confirmed that the bill was signed by President Johnson on July 2, 1964 which seems to be at odds with:

It (Civil Rights Bill) came in 1965, not 'after the assassination' but after a passage of time during which many events unfolded which I am sure would have made "Kennedy's Civil Rights Bill" a different thing altogether to "LBJ's Civil Rights Bill", had Kennedy been alive.

[John Dolva]

OK, I understand what you mean, good point. I should have separated the two sentences into more explanatory paragraphs. However my intent was not to delve into the minutae (not saying they are not important) but rather to differentiate between the eventual outcome and what it could have been if Kennedy had not been assassinated.

In one of my initial posts on this I called it 'the 63,64,65 Civil Rights Bill.'

Voting and choosing where to live and educate ones children and travel, work opportunities and other rights issues, were, whichever Bill one chooses to focus on, revolutionary in (IMO) Kennedy's true intent. At various times throughout his presidency he went over one by one, many issues, issued executive orders to gather data, etc in perparation for the eventual Bill(s).

When these Bills had been passed,(and I think LBJ would have committed political suicide if he had not gone ahead with it/them) the reality of it was that the Great Expectations of many in reality, day to day living, were let down. (and then later came the fight for the ERA, but now in a different political climate, it failed. Again, I suggest if Kennedy or someone true to his intent had been at the helm that would have passed.)

The segregationists were deadly serious in not seeing generations of economic status quo come to an end. I think to some extent they have been successful.

My argument basically is that under Kennedy they would been far less so.