The USS LIBERTY Incident

[Len Colby]

Michael Collins Piper's radio show has covered in Liberty incident in recent days.

Last Friday, Piper interviewed several Liberty survivors in person. They were assembling in Washington for a week-end re-union.

One of the speakers at that event was a healthy septuagenarian called Richard Thompson. An ex US Naval intelligence officer, he had been a primary source for the recent book 'Operation Cyanide: How the Bombing of the USS Liberty Nearly Caused World War III ' referred to above.

It is the book by British journalists Peter Hounam and John Simpson that claims Israel set up the attack on the Liberty as a false flag operation. According to this theory, had the attack succeeded, the War on (Arab) Terror would have come three and a half decades earlier...

Do you find the book's thesis that LBJ wanted to nuke Egypt credible?

Thompson was killed in a car crash on his return to Florida. Apparently no other cars were involved. Cause of the accident unknown.

The trgic incident was discussed by Piper on his show this Monday.

Someone in their 70's died in a car crash how suspicious! Did Piper cite any evidence the cause of the crash is "unknown"? Did say which city it happened in if so a seach of the local papers might be revealing

Ennes' site makes no mention of Thompson's death so presumablly he didn't find it suspicious

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls...amp;btnG=Search

Edited June 13, 2007 by Len Colby

[Mark Stapleton]

I find that Americans who eagerly express their Christian faith, and constantly praise Israel while obligingly turning a blind eye to the suffering of the Palestinians to be quite contemptible.

It's part of their Christian faith that Israel is God's chosen as set forth in the Bible. Naturally God's chosen can do no wrong.

Yes I know. They are blinded by their faith.

With Bush leading the nation, it's surely a case of the blind leading the blind.

[Sid Walker]

Do you find the book's thesis that LBJ wanted to nuke Egypt credible?

I set of my theory, FWIW, in a post earlier on this thread.

Personally, I doubt the goal was to trigger a nuclear attack on Eygpt.

I have little doubt, on the other hand, that the sinking of the USS LIberty was a false flag operation gone wrong.

Someone in their 70's died in a car crash how suspicious! Did Piper cite any evidence the cause of the crash is "unknown"? Did say which city it happened in if so a seach of the local papers might be revealing

I know no more about it Len.

There would be a parallel, perhaps, if a retired MI6 agent in his seventies drove into a tree on a road in the north of England. He happened to be a major source for stories suggesting that Diana was murdered by elements in the British Intelligence Services (can't get over that name!). He had recently said that he had more info to reveal. Then he died suddendly in a car crash. A few suspicious Anglophobic minds might suspect the hand of British "Intelligence" (there I go misusing that word again! ). Other retired spooks would get the message that this is a topic to avoid.

Was Mr Thompson's death an accident? I have no idea.

Is it suspicious? Sure it is. Get real.

[Mark Stapleton]

Ennes' site makes no mention of Thompson's death so presumablly he didn't find it suspicious

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls...amp;btnG=Search

Len's reaction to a suspicious death is to run a quick search of Google a few days after the event. If no-one has posted anything noteworthy then it's case closed, "Nothing to see here, folks--move along now".

Sherlock Colby strikes again.

[Len Colby]

There would be a parallel, perhaps, if a retired MI6 agent in his seventies drove into a tree on a road in the north of England. He happened to be a major source for stories suggesting that Diana was murdered by elements in the British Intelligence Services (can't get over that name!). He had recently said that he had more info to reveal. Then he died suddendly in a car crash. A few suspicious Anglophobic minds might suspect the hand of British "Intelligence" (there I go misusing that word again! ). Other retired spooks would get the message that this is a topic to avoid.

Was Mr Thompson's death an accident? I have no idea.

Is it suspicious? Sure it is. Get real.

It’s not suspicious until we have some minimal details about what happened. Since Piper bragged about being intellectually dishonest on this very forum I wouldn’t take anything he said for granted. See if you dig up any info about this that doesn’t come from a confessed xxxx.

Your analogy is fitting, since I think the Diana CT’s are absurd I wouldn’t find the dead suspicious unless there was information from a reliable source suggesting it was. And since Thompson’s tale of the world on the verge of Egypt being nuked and WWIII breaking out equally or even more absurd ditto.

His role with the book is unclear to me. One can search its text on Amazon (see your link above) and the only place his name appears once on the last page as sharing the copyright with Hounam but only the latter is cited as the author. How did he claim to come across this information? I’d think if “they” wanted to get rid of him “they” would have done so before he ‘spilled the beans’ not after. If he really had more secrets to disclose he’d be a fool if handn’t left copies with numerous people to be released upon his death

Ennes' site makes no mention of Thompson's death so presumablly he didn't find it suspicious

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls...amp;btnG=Search

Len's reaction to a suspicious death is to run a quick search of Google a few days after the event. If no-one has posted anything noteworthy then it's case closed, "Nothing to see here, folks--move along now".

No my reaction to an allegedly suspicious death is to try and get minimal information about it before rushing to judgment. I tried finding more about it on Google but came up empty handed, I imagine if his death were reported at all it would have been in a local newspaper hence my request for more info from Sid.

Ennes it seems knew (or at least knew of) Thompson because he addressed a survivors meeting and gave out DVD which you would know if you’d bother to follow the link. I’d be surprised if Ennes weren’t aware of the ‘accident’ and even more surprised if he found it suspicious but made no mention of it on his site

Sherlock Colby strikes again.

Simple Simon Stapleton strikes sagain

[Mark Stapleton]

It’s not suspicious until we have some minimal details about what happened. Since Piper bragged about being intellectually dishonest on this very forum I wouldn’t take anything he said for granted. See if you dig up any info about this that doesn’t come from a confessed xxxx.

Well well well.

Look who's shooting the messenger now.

[Mark Stapleton]

No my reaction to an allegedly suspicious death is to try and get minimal information about it before rushing to judgment. I tried finding more about it on Google but came up empty handed, I imagine if his death were reported at all it would have been in a local newspaper hence my request for more info from Sid.

Ennes it seems knew (or at least knew of) Thompson because he addressed a survivors meeting and gave out DVD which you would know if you’d bother to follow the link. I’d be surprised if Ennes weren’t aware of the ‘accident’ and even more surprised if he found it suspicious but made no mention of it on his site

But no-one's rushing to judgement. Sid's initial post merely stated that the cause of the accident was unknown.

No one's making any allegations. Let's just wait and see if anything comes of it before you start jumping down people's throats.

Your response to Sid for posting this information makes it appear that you are permanently in attack-dog mode (your post #91).

[Sid Walker]

There would be a parallel, perhaps, if a retired MI6 agent in his seventies drove into a tree on a road in the north of England. He happened to be a major source for stories suggesting that Diana was murdered by elements in the British Intelligence Services (can't get over that name!). He had recently said that he had more info to reveal. Then he died suddendly in a car crash. A few suspicious Anglophobic minds might suspect the hand of British "Intelligence" (there I go misusing that word again! ). Other retired spooks would get the message that this is a topic to avoid.

Was Mr Thompson's death an accident? I have no idea.

Is it suspicious? Sure it is. Get real.

It’s not suspicious until we have some minimal details about what happened. Since Piper bragged about being intellectually dishonest on this very forum I wouldn’t take anything he said for granted. See if you dig up any info about this that doesn’t come from a confessed xxxx.

Your analogy is fitting, since I think the Diana CT’s are absurd I wouldn’t find the dead suspicious unless there was information from a reliable source suggesting it was. And since Thompson’s tale of the world on the verge of Egypt being nuked and WWIII breaking out equally or even more absurd ditto.

His role with the book is unclear to me. One can search its text on Amazon (see your link above) and the only place his name appears once on the last page as sharing the copyright with Hounam but only the latter is cited as the author. How did he claim to come across this information? I’d think if “they” wanted to get rid of him “they” would have done so before he ‘spilled the beans’ not after. If he really had more secrets to disclose he’d be a fool if handn’t left copies with numerous people to be released upon his death

Ennes' site makes no mention of Thompson's death so presumablly he didn't find it suspicious

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls...amp;btnG=Search

Len's reaction to a suspicious death is to run a quick search of Google a few days after the event. If no-one has posted anything noteworthy then it's case closed, "Nothing to see here, folks--move along now".

No my reaction to an allegedly suspicious death is to try and get minimal information about it before rushing to judgment. I tried finding more about it on Google but came up empty handed, I imagine if his death were reported at all it would have been in a local newspaper hence my request for more info from Sid.

Ennes it seems knew (or at least knew of) Thompson because he addressed a survivors meeting and gave out DVD which you would know if you’d bother to follow the link. I’d be surprised if Ennes weren’t aware of the ‘accident’ and even more surprised if he found it suspicious but made no mention of it on his site

Sherlock Colby strikes again.

Simple Simon Stapleton strikes sagain

Can you provide an exact citation for your allegation that Piper "bragged about being intellectually dishonest on this very forum"?

As for "rushing to judgment", who's doing that?

[Len Colby]

Mark wrote:

“Well well well.

Look who's shooting the messenger now.”

As I’ve tried to explain to you before there is a difference between “attacking the messenger” in lieu of debunking his points when he presents verifiable claims, like you did with Cristol and questioning the credibility of someone who make unverifiable claims. There is also a difference between questioning someone’s credibility because you don’t like what they have to say and questioning their credibility when you have evidence they are not honest. Boston’s claims aren’t verifiable and there is a good deal of evidence they are false. Similarly Piper made claims about Thompson and his death that can’t be verified and he bragged about writing an essay that he “obviously…knew [was] a crock” in order to win “a fat little US savings bond” (see below)

Mark wrote:

“But no-one's rushing to judgement. Sid's initial post merely stated that the cause of the accident was unknown. No one's making any allegations.”

Not ‘allegations’ but rather insinuations. Sid implied that he though the guy’s death suspicious, in his reply to me he confirmed that was his position.

Mark wrote:

“Let's just wait and see if anything comes of it before you start jumping down people's throats.

Your response to Sid for posting this information makes it appear that you are permanently in attack-dog mode (your post #91).”

I didn’t ‘jump down’ anyone’s ‘throat’; nothing in my post can be construed as an “attack” on Sid. Nothing in his reply indicated he felt he’d been attacked or had his ‘throat jumped down’ Oh and speaking of “attack dog mode” and “jumping down people's throats” didn't you write the following?:

“Sherlock Colby strikes again”

“…makes it appear you are permanently in attack-dog mode”

Sid asked:

“Can you provide an exact citation for your allegation that Piper "bragged about being intellectually dishonest on this very forum"?”

Yes Sid, Piper wrote:

"Actually, I won an essay contest in high school, along with a fat little US savings bond, for writing a "Voice of Democracy" contest saying how wonderful Israel was and what a great role model it is for the United States. Obviously I knew by then what a crock that was, but I still got that fat savings bond."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55925

Sid wrote: “As for "rushing to judgment", who's doing that?”

Perhaps I read too much into what you said and you did the same with my statements. Am I correct in believing that you find the “accident” quite suspicious? I’m not saying that it was not due to foul play only that we don’t have nearly enough information even to reasonably speculate along those lines.

[Sid Walker]

Sid asked:

“Can you provide an exact citation for your allegation that Piper "bragged about being intellectually dishonest on this very forum"?”

Yes Sid, Piper wrote:

"Actually, I won an essay contest in high school, along with a fat little US savings bond, for writing a "Voice of Democracy" contest saying how wonderful Israel was and what a great role model it is for the United States. Obviously I knew by then what a crock that was, but I still got that fat savings bond."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55925

Sorry Len. I'm sorry for you. That is a really pathetic fit-up. The evidence against the Birmingham 6 constituted a stronger case than that.

It's like the way you once harped on about one of my exasperated expletives and claimed it had lurid implications. Sad.

Sid wrote: “As for "rushing to judgment", who's doing that?”

Perhaps I read too much into what you said and you did the same with my statements. Am I correct in believing that you find the “accident” quite suspicious? I’m not saying that it was not due to foul play only that we don’t have nearly enough information even to reasonably speculate along those lines.

Yes it's suspicious, no I don't know the cause of Thompson's death.

If it's rushing to judgment to be suspicious, I plead guilty. Personally I think it's plain common sense.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Mark Stapleton]

I agree with Sid Walker. You're a sad case Len.

So Piper wrote a paper in high school about a subject he didn't really believe in. So bloody what? Piper at least made an unsolicited admission, which is more than can be said for others. Can you prove that all your pro-Israeli sources are as pure as the driven snow?

Can you state that you have never been dishonest? If not, cut out the sanctimonious sermons.

As for your rationisation that shooting the messenger is fine if the messenger is making 'unverifiable' assertions and forbidden if they make 'verifiable' assertions, that's looking as fragile as your argument that the Liberty attack was an innocent mistake.

Cristol's assertion that Israel did not know they were attacking an innocent American vessel is merely his opinion and certainly not 'verifiable' in light of the considerable evidence and opinions to the contrary. You haven't satifactorily explained how Israel could make a positive identification of the vessel and then 'forget' about that fact only hours later? You can claim it was a misunderstanding but I don't believe you. The flimsy explanation that the information was lost in a shift change requires one to suspend disbelief more than is humanly possible, especially in light of the IDF's well earned reputation for efficiency.

As for Thompson's death, it's better to wait and see if any allegations are made. For the moment, though, you can label me suspicious. Sorry if my opinion is not 'verifiable'--but neither is yours.

[Len Colby]

dupelicate post

Edited June 15, 2007 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Sid asked:

“Can you provide an exact citation for your allegation that Piper "bragged about being intellectually dishonest on this very forum"?”

Yes Sid, Piper wrote:

"Actually, I won an essay contest in high school, along with a fat little US savings bond, for writing a "Voice of Democracy" contest saying how wonderful Israel was and what a great role model it is for the United States. Obviously I knew by then what a crock that was, but I still got that fat savings bond."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55925

Sorry Len. I'm sorry for you. That is a really pathetic fit-up. The evidence against the Birmingham 6 constituted a stronger case than that.

Please spare us your smug sarcasm and feigned pity.

So writing an essay you think is “a crock” doesn’t classify as “intellectually dishonest” to you? What Does then? I imagine your POV would be quite different if Deborha Lipstadt, Martin Peretz or Alan Dershowitz had let a similar admission slip out.

It's like the way you once harped on about one of my exasperated expletives and claimed it had lurid implications. Sad.

I don’t claim that Brazil is the largest country in South America or that Paris is the capital of France or that the square root of 49 is 7 some things are indisputable. “Blow me” does have sexual connotations and is usually used as an expletive in way not very different from “go to hell” or other phrases that John prefers members not to use here, ‘lurid’ however is not a very apt description.

The only thing in doubt is if you knew of this meaning when you used the phrase. I asked various Australians and Englishmen as well as some Canadians and New Zeelanders and the near universal consensus was that it was hard to believe you didn’t.

Sid wrote: “As for "rushing to judgment", who's doing that?”

Perhaps I read too much into what you said and you did the same with my statements. Am I correct in believing that you find the “accident” quite suspicious? I’m not saying that it was not due to foul play only that we don’t have nearly enough information even to reasonably speculate along those lines.

Yes it's suspicious, no I don't know the cause of Thompson's death.

If it's rushing to judgment to be suspicious, I plead guilty. Personally I think it's plain common sense.

We seem to be going in circles here, see if you can dig up any more info about the crash.

I agree with Sid Walker. You're a sad case Len.

Ditto above

"So Piper wrote a paper in high school about a subject he didn't really believe in. So bloody what?"

Ditto above

"Piper at least made an unsolicited admission, which is more than can be said for others."

There was nothing confessional about his “unsolicited admission” he was proud of what he’d done, he was bragging. In his rush to show how clever he was he seems to have overlooked how this negatively reflected on his credibility.

Can you prove that all your pro-Israeli sources are as pure as the driven snow?

The only “pro-Israeli source” I can recall citing is Judge Cristol. I’ve seen no evidence that he is dishonest other than his critics claims that he is. You also seem to have your notion of "burden of proof" backwards.

"Can you state that you have never been dishonest? If not, cut out the sanctimonious sermons."

I agree with Jack Nicholson's dictum that "You only lie to two people in your life: Your girlfriend and the police."

"As for your rationisation that shooting the messenger is fine if the messenger is making 'unverifiable' assertions and forbidden if they make 'verifiable' assertions, that's looking as fragile as your argument that the Liberty attack was an innocent mistake."

If so you should be able to explain why. It doesn’t matter if Robert Vesco, Ken Lay, “Tricky Dick” Nixon or someone else of there ilk makes claims if they can be independently verified. However if someone makes claims (especially if they are about their personal experience) that can’t be verified their reliability is germane.

"Cristol's assertion that Israel did not know they were attacking an innocent American vessel is merely his opinion and certainly not 'verifiable' in light of the considerable evidence and opinions to the contrary."

Cristol made various specific claims as to the facts of the case that can be verified or if false easily shown to be so. You choose rather to ‘cast aspersions’ about him.

"You haven't satifactorily explained how Israel could make a positive identification of the vessel and then 'forget' about that fact only hours later? You can claim it was a misunderstanding but I don't believe you. The flimsy explanation that the information was lost in a shift change requires one to suspend disbelief more than is humanly possible, especially in light of the IDF's well earned reputation for efficiency."

I don’t think it can be satisfactorily explained it was a screw up. Has the attack on the Sheffield by planes from its own battle group been “satisfactorily explained”? What about the failure of the flight crew of Eastern flight 401 to notice that the auto-pilot had disengaged while they were trying to figure out why a landing gear light wasn’t working and they were losing altitude until it was fatally too late? Look up the "Dieppe raid". Mistakes happen an in light of the rest of the known facts that is the best explanation for what happened.

As for Thompson's death, it's better to wait and see if any allegations are made. For the moment, though, you can label me suspicious. Sorry if my opinion is not 'verifiable'--but neither is yours.

Yes I agree “it's better to wait and see”, his death would be more suspicious if

- it hadn’t come out years AFTER he made his allegations. Apparently he was a source for the BBC “documentary” ‘Dead in the Water’ which came out in 2001 as well as for "Operation Cyanide" which was published 2 years later or

- if he didn’t seem to be pushing a patently absurd theory that the attack was part of a ploy to nuke Egypt.

[Mark Stapleton]

Sorry Len. I'm sorry for you. That is a really pathetic fit-up. The evidence against the Birmingham 6 constituted a stronger case than that.

Please spare us your smug sarcasm and feigned pity.

So writing an essay you think is “a crock” doesn’t classify as “intellectually dishonest” to you? What Does then? I imagine your POV would be quite different if Deborha Lipstadt, Martin Peretz or Alan Dershowitz had let a similar admission slip out.

It's like the way you once harped on about one of my exasperated expletives and claimed it had lurid implications. Sad.

I don’t claim that Brazil is the largest country in South America or that Paris is the capital of France or that the square root of 49 is 7 some things are indisputable. “Blow me” does have sexual connotations and is usually used as an expletive in way not very different from “go to hell” or other phrases that John prefers members not to use here, ‘lurid’ however is not a very apt description.

The only thing in doubt is if you knew of this meaning when you used the phrase. I asked various Australians and Englishmen as well as some Canadians and New Zeelanders and the near universal consensus was that it was hard to believe you didn’t.

Oh brother. A piece of advice for you len---get help.

"You haven't satifactorily explained how Israel could make a positive identification of the vessel and then 'forget' about that fact only hours later? You can claim it was a misunderstanding but I don't believe you. The flimsy explanation that the information was lost in a shift change requires one to suspend disbelief more than is humanly possible, especially in light of the IDF's well earned reputation for efficiency."

I don’t think it can be satisfactorily explained it was a screw up. Has the attack on the Sheffield by planes from its own battle group been “satisfactorily explained”? What about the failure of the flight crew of Eastern flight 401 to notice that the auto-pilot had disengaged while they were trying to figure out why a landing gear light wasn’t working and they were losing altitude until it was fatally too late? Look up the "Dieppe raid". Mistakes happen an in light of the rest of the known facts that is the best explanation for what happened.

Well, I guess that's it then. You've now admitted you cannot explain how Israel knew the identity of the USS Liberty and then 'forgot' about it just hours later. Just dismissing it as a screwup doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. Better to admit you failed Len---once again. Israel's desperate claims of innocence are all froth and bubble.

There's little point continuing this debate unless something new comes in. You've come unstuck on this key issue and this debate will go downhill from here, degenerating into insults. Better luck next time, Len.

As for Thompson's death, it's better to wait and see if any allegations are made. For the moment, though, you can label me suspicious. Sorry if my opinion is not 'verifiable'--but neither is yours.

Yes I agree “it's better to wait and see”, his death would be more suspicious if

- it hadn’t come out years AFTER he made his allegations. Apparently he was a source for the BBC “documentary” ‘Dead in the Water’ which came out in 2001 as well as for "Operation Cyanide" which was published 2 years later or

- if he didn’t seem to be pushing a patently absurd theory that the attack was part of a ploy to nuke Egypt.

[Sid Walker]

While browsing for a suitable thread to use for the latest round of Israeli-orchestrated destabilization and war-mongering in the middle east (Sudan, Palestine, the Lebanon, Syria, Iran etc) I encountered an article by former BBC-journalist Alan Hart that I'd reproduced in full on the forum in a previous post.

I came across this paragraph:

In June 1967 Israel’s prime minister of the time, the much maligned Levi Eshkol, did NOT want to take his country to war. It, war, was imposed upon him by the generals, led by Dayan. As I explain in Volume Two of my book, what really happened in Israel in the final countdown to that war was something very close to a military coup in all but name.

I suspect that's broadly correct.

There are implications for the USS Liberty incident. Eshkol may well have been unaware of the plot to sink the Liberty.

It was, I suspect, a false-flag operation dreamed up by elements in the Israeli military elite, probably led by Dayan - in cahoots with elements within the Zionist international network (especially, but not exclusively, inside the USA - and with strong connections at the highest levels of the US Administration).

There is a precedent for this type of thing. In the 1950s, the Lavon Affair - ironically named after the hapless Mr Lavon who was most definitely outside the decision-making loop - was a plot in which the formal chain of command was clearly subverted. The nominal leadership was left to shoulder the embarrassment of a very evil and unsuccessful false-flag operation.

The conspirators survived unscathed. A very bad precedent, to say the least.

Edited June 17, 2007 by Sid Walker