In Lee Harvey Oswald's Room

[David Von Pein]

Markham is OK about that time since [it's] largely based upon her daily routine.

Then why in the world would she tell the FBI that the shooting of Tippit occurred "possibly around 1:30" [Commission Document 5; Page 79] if she knew she had to catch a bus at 1:15?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=82

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=83

In September 2007, I had this conversation with a CTer named Ray about this Markham/1:30 topic:

RAY -- "I tracked down Odum's report in Maryferrell.org. It is in CD5 p.

80--The Gemberling Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to

Markham's direct testimony -- in her affidavit and in her testimony --

Odum's report is worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time of

the Tippit murder." <<<

I then said:

Well OF COURSE it's hearsay. Duh. I know that. But...so the hell what??

This isn't an official COURT TRIAL, for Pete sake. And Vince Bugliosi's

book isn't an official "trial" either. So what if it's hearsay? It makes

not a lick of difference with respect to these Forum discussions and with

respect to VB putting Odum's words in his JFK book.

The fact is ("hearsay" or not) that FBI Agent Bardwell Odum DID write the

words "around 1:30 p.m." in a report about Helen Markham's observations

surrounding the Tippit murder, which is just exactly what Vince Bugliosi

points out on Page 52 of his Endnotes on the CD-ROM attached to his 2007

book "Reclaiming History".

(NOTE: The word "possibly" does precede the words "around 1:30 p.m." in

Odum's written report; so I guess this will now mean that CTers can gripe

because VB cut out that word "possibly". But, in any event, Odum is on

Warren Commission record, via Commission Document #5, as having stated

that Mrs. Markham told him that the murder of J.D. Tippit could possibly

have occurred "around 1:30 p.m.".)

I want to thank Ray for digging up CD#5, with the Odum Report in it. I

looked for hours at Ferrell's site myself and couldn't find it in the

morass of thousands of documents presented there at that excellent

website.

However, Ray, you have the wrong page number within CD#5. The Bardwell

Odum report regarding the specific "around 1:30 p.m." reference isn't on

Page 80....it's on Page 79, which is a completely-different Odum report

filed on a different day.

Page 80 does have an Odum report (from November 25), but it's shorter and

does not include the "1:30" remark. But one page prior (on Page 79 of

CD#5), there is a separate report from Odum from 11/22/63 (dictated on

11/23).

But the main point here is one that I knew would turn out to be true and

verified in short order (because VB wouldn't place quotation marks around

something if those words never were never spoken or written by someone in

the first place)...and that point is: Vincent Bugliosi did not lie regarding

this Markham/Odum interview and the timeline issue. And the document

linked HERE proves that fact (CD5; p.79).

Thanks again, Ray. Good job at digging it up (even though you were one page

off). It probably would have taken me several more days of

agonizing searching to find the damn thing (and I, too, don't know why

Vince B. didn't make mention of "CD5; Pg. 79" in his Endnote re. this

particular Odum report; because that source note would have made it a lot

easier to rub this in a few CTers' noses just that much sooner).

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein

[Dean Hagerman]

He might have paused for a second or two (or maybe not even that

David, you are getting close to Larry Dunkels amazing ability to speculate and the call it fact

You better slow down so you dont pass your master

[David Von Pein]

I don't have to "cover up" anything, Jimbo. I stated a FACT (per Roberts' testimony on the horn-honking) -- i.e., on multiple days PRIOR to Nov. 22, a police car would honk its horn in front of 1026 N. Beckley, in just exactly the same "tip-tip" manner that Roberts said a police car honked its horn on 11/22.

[David Von Pein]

Reprise:

Markham is OK about that time since [it's] largely based upon her daily routine.

Then why in the world would she tell the FBI that the shooting of Tippit occurred "possibly around 1:30" [Commission Document 5; Page 79] if she knew she had to catch a bus at 1:15?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=82

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=83

[David Von Pein]

James DiEugenio will ignore the fact that Helen Markham told Bardwell Odum ON THE SAME DAY OF THE ASSASSINATION that the Tippit shooting could have possibly occurred as late as 1:30 PM.

Odum's interview with Markham was THE SAME DAY as the shooting. IOW, the same day when she was ALSO saying "1:06".

Obviously, there's a discrepancy in the time. She didn't tell Odum 1:06. Why not? Or was Odum a xxxx? I doubt you think that, since you love the guy on the issue of whether or not he ever took a bullet out to Parkland to show Tomlinson & Wright.

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

If Tippit had really been shot at 1:06 (per Markham) or 1:10 (Bowley), this would mean that Benavides and Bowley stood around and waited SIX to TEN minutes before using Tippit's car radio to report the shooting.

Per the DPD radio records, at 1:16 PM, somebody began "pumping" a police radio microphone for about 90 seconds. (This was obviously Benavides' botched attempt to call in on Tippit's radio.)

Bowley then got through and told the dispatcher that a policeman had been shot. Bowley's call came through at 1:18, after Benavides had apparently been unsuccessful at working the radio for about 1.5 minutes.

The 1:16-1:18 timing of the Benavides/Bowley radio calls indicates that the shooting very likely occurred just a very short time prior to 1:16. [see "With Malice" by Dale K. Myers; pp. 86-87.]

But people like J. DiEugenio evidently want to believe that Benavides & Bowley just stood around picking lint out of their belly buttons for up to ten full minutes before getting into Tippit's car to use the radio. (And even a SIX-minute delay in reporting the murder is ludicrous too.)

In short --- DiEugenio, as usual, is dead wrong.

Lee Harvey Oswald killed J.D. Tippit at approximately 1:14 to 1:15 PM CST on 11/22/63, and the Dallas Police Department radio dispatch records (coupled with ordinary common sense and logic) fully support that timeline.

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Just as I said, you've got a 6 to 10-minute delay in reporting the shooting if you want to go with the 1:06 or 1:10 timelines. That is not a reasonable delay, IMO. And "a few minutes", by any reasonable definition, would be fewer than ten. Ten would be "several". But you'll just call that nitpicking, so I won't go any further.

And, as discussed earlier, I think we know how good people are at judging "minutes" -- they are generally lousy. And that fact is proven over and over again in just this JFK/Tippit case.

Jim Altgens, when estimating the length of time for the shooting of JFK said that "all the shots were fired within the space of less than 30 seconds." (Well, I certainly hope so. Or else, Oliver Stone had better add a couple dozen more shots to his shooting scenario.)

J.C. Price said there was a FIVE-MINUTE gap between shots in Dealey Plaza. (And I'm sure you love Price, because he was utilized by Mark Lane in RTJ.)

And then there's the previously-discussed all-over-the-map timelines of Helen Markham -- from 1:06 to 1:30.

And then there's the timing of the Tippit shooting by Virginia Davis -- she said it occurred "about 1:30" in her affidavit.

BTW, Jim, it's T.F. Bowley, not "Bewley".

Did Tony Summers really call him "Bewley" in his 1980 book?

BTW #2 -- Care to explain away those two Davis bullet shells yet? I'm sure you can find a way to pretend those were planted by Doughty and Dhority, can't you?

It's fairly obvious that Jim DiEugenio couldn't care less about the truth in the JFK assassination. His job is to find as many excuses as he can possibly find to avoid having to ever say "Oswald did it". Those three words are like poison to a CTer like Jimbo. Pure arsenic.

Jim will now turn the tables and say my last sentence reeks of pot/kettle-ism, and that the words "conspiracy" and "Oswald is innocent" are poison to my lips.

But he'll be wrong if he says that. And that's because my "Oswald did it" conclusion is a much more reasonable one than Jim's "Everything is fake" conclusion when it comes to examining the evidence in the murders of JFK and J.D. Tippit. I don't require EVERY last piece of evidence to be fake in this case in order to arrive at my conclusion. Jim, however, needs literally every piece of evidence to be tainted in order for his "ABO" views to be accurate.

And, I ask sincerely -- is that a reasonable requirement?

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

The human mind loves routines. So, do you agree that Helen Markham caught the same bus each day and like most public transport user who didn't want to get fired, left her home each day at the same time to catch her bus?

Yes.

[John Dolva]

Neat, Lee.

[David Von Pein]

Were the Warren Commission wrong about this, Dave?

The WC was probably slightly off on that timeline, yes. But keep in mind that the WC said that all times were "approximate". Nobody can know exactly when Oswald left the roominghouse. It could have been earlier than 1:00, and I think it probably was earlier than 1:00.

And nobody can know exactly when he ENTERED the roominghouse either. All we can do is guess. Nobody was following LHO with a stopwatch affixed to his tail.

But even if he did leave his room at 1:03, he still had enough time to get to Tenth St. by 1:14 or so. And 1:14 is positively the best guess for when the shooting happened (see Myers' "With Malice"; p.86). Various people have done re-enactments of the trip to Tenth St., and it's been done is as little as 11 minutes.

And as I've said, there's no way that Oswald would have had any reason to be in that small room of his for any 3-4 minutes that day. There wasn't a bathroom in that room. It was a large closet. You could barely swing a cat in it.

And Earlene Roberts herself said that he was only in his room long enough to get a coat and put it on. That's all. And she extrapolated that to "3 or 4 minutes". No way.

And in the TV movie "Ruby & Oswald", it was proven via a re-creation that Oswald's actions of grabbing a gun and putting on a jacket and then exiting the room can be done in 22 seconds. So, what else was LHO doing in there for the remaining 3.5 minutes, if Roberts' timeline is correct? He wasn't taking a dump, because as I said there's certainly no toilet in that small room.

The CTers make a giant issue out of the narrow timeline. But in actuality, it SHOULD be pretty narrow, because Oswald very likely wasn't loitering on Tenth Street or on Beckley before he reached Tenth. So a narrow timeline, with little wiggle room, is what I would expect.

But to discount A DOZEN eyewitnesses and the ballistics evidence, which are things that conclusively prove Oswald's guilt in Tippit's slaying, in favor of a few minutes' discrepancy in a witness' timeline....is just plain silly.

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

So, we've established that she [Helen Louise Markham] left her house at 1:04PM. Shall we chalk this time up as a FACT, Dave?

Oh, good gosh, no. That's speculation. Nobody can possibly timestamp that event as being precisely "1:04". That's crazy. Can't be done. The time could easily vary a few minutes from day to day. (And you just accused ME of doing a lot of speculating.)

Before you jump on me in yet another pot/kettle fashion, let me say this: Yes, my "1:14" timing for the Tippit shooting is SPECULATION too. I'll admit that. And I think Dale Myers would too. (He's got it down to "1:14:30", in fact.) But nobody can KNOW with 100% certainty if it was 1:13 or 1:14 or 1:15, etc.

Vince Bugliosi thinks that 1:12 is the best guess for the time of Tippit's shooting. So, even among LNers, there are some slight disagreements, although not by very many minutes (because of Benavides' 1:16 radio call attempt).

But, just like Oswald's movements, nobody had a clock marked "Coordinated Universal Time" attached to Helen Markham's ass when she left for her job on November 22nd.

My last post before this one was a really good one. You should re-read it, Mr. Farley -- especially this part:

"But to discount A DOZEN eyewitnesses and the ballistics evidence, which are things that conclusively prove Oswald's guilt in Tippit's slaying, in favor of a few minutes' discrepancy in a witness' timeline....is just plain silly." -- DVP; 08/20/10

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Would you like to reconsider your position on this?

Oh, heavens no. The best evidence trumps a timeline snafu any day of the week. You know that, Lee. Oswald killed Tippit. Stamp it MARK VII.

BTW. It was Bowley who made the first call at 1:16PM. Benavides tried to make a call by "mashing buttons" but didn't receive a response and Bowley took over.

I don't think that's right. Benavides was the first person to use the radio. He was clueless about its operation and then Bowley took over. Are you saying the proper chronology was BOWLEY (unsuccessful), then BENAVIDES (unsuccessful), then BOWLEY again (successful)? That's not accurate at all.

BTW, Bowley's call was at 1:17:41 (Myers; "With Malice"; p.92). Benavides' "mashing" started at 1:16 and continued for more than 90 seconds.

Also: Relating to a post by Jim DiEugenio earlier --- Benavides stated in a 1967 CBS-TV interview that the time he waited before getting out of his truck much much shorter than "a few minutes" (which is his quote from his WC testimony). He told Eddie Barker of CBS that he gave the gunman just enough time to get around the corner and then he jumped out of his truck after just "a second or two" and went over to Tippit's body.

Take the '67 version with a grain of salt if you like--but that's what Domingo said in 1967. And he also said that he was positive Lee Oswald was the killer. (Take another grain of Morton's there too, if desired.)

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein

[Michael Hogan]

I'm beginning to understand why, in your head, all the evidence fits. You just have to ignore inconveniences and use a system of picking and choosing what you like versus what you don't like from the evidence pool and the various testimonies.

Sounds like a description of the Warren Report.

All conspiracy theorists could learn some good habits from the Warren Commission.

Unlike the Warren Commission, David's harmless. His continual taunting and labeling can be irritating

to be sure, but his actual arguments are benign and outdated.

David is too heavily invested in the Warren Report to consider much of anything beyond that realm.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Michael Hogan

[John Dolva]

Another oddity (to me) is the notion that she witnessed a cop shooting and hopped on the bus. Maybe peoples priorities and respomsibilities were different but wouldn't most stay to see what happened, if they can help, if their witness testimony is wanted, simple curiosity justified by the above. ??? But she went to work. Could that be an indicator she never saw anything, or did she or someone lie somewhere along the line?

[David Von Pein]

William Whaley claims his reenactment took him 9 minutes to get from where he picked Oswald up to the rooming house and that was when the lights went his way.

Yes, cab driver William W. Whaley did say it took "nine minutes" to perform one of the re-enactments from Greyhound to Beckley and Neely [at 2 H 259]. But you're leaving out the other re-enactment, which was performed on the same day Whaley gave additional testimony in front of the Warren Commission (April 8, 1964).

In that second re-enactment with Whaley and Warren Commission counsel member David W. Belin present, the cab ride was reconstructed from the Greyhound bus terminal to the intersection of Beckley Avenue and Neely Street in Oak Cliff (which is where Whaley said Oswald got out of the taxicab).

That 4/8/64 re-creation was timed by stopwatch at 5 minutes and 30 seconds [see 6 H 434 and WCR Page 163.

DAVID BELIN -- "When we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch from the Greyhound bus station to the 700 block of North Beckley, do you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch?"

WILLIAM WHALEY -- "A little more than 5 minutes, between 5 and 6 minutes."

MR. BELIN -- "Would your trip that day, on November 22, have been longer or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today?"

MR. WHALEY -- "It would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take a few seconds, not minutes. Because the man drove just about as near to my driving as possible. We made every light that I made, and we stopped on the lights that I stopped on."

MR. BELIN -- "Let the record show that the stopwatch was 5 minutes and 30 seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride."

RELATED LINK

WILLIAM WHALEY VIDEOS

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Von Pein