Greg Parker Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) edit Edited September 13, 2015 by Greg Parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 edit Greg, Was FICON the predecessor to the U-2 program, or was it supplanted by it? --Tolmmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I'm going to jump in here since this is a subject I discuss at great length in Surprise Attack so at least its familiar to me. Aerial ferreting and reconnaissance of the Soviet Union started even before the treaty with Japan had been signed - as did planning for atomic strikes against Russia. The first aircraft considered for a major program of deep penetration missions (up to 5,000 miles) were propeller driven B-29 reconnaissance planes, however it would be the B-47's that would ultimately conduct multiple missions to Moscow and beyond. The FICON program was an option for extending penetration missions from prop engine reconnaissance bombers, especially with the sprint capability of a jet fighter. However the jet fighters would never have had the range to do deep photo missions across the Russian land mass. I'd have to say that the real comparable predecessor to the U-2 was not an aircraft at all but rather the high level photo balloon project designated Genetrix, which began sending cameras across the breadth of Russia in 1956. Some 500 Genetrix balloons were launched, many were shot down and ultimately 50 cameras were recovered providing photo coverage of some 8% of the Soviet Union. That was indeed a predecessor program to the U-2. Genetrix was complemented by the extensive SAC B-47 flights which began in 1954 and ultimately ended with the major operation designated as Project Homerun in 1956, One Homerun flight involved a formation of six B-47's which took off from Thule, Greenland and crossed the Pole, moving into and across Russia, exiting across the Bearing Strait and landing in Alaska. That was the sort of mission which SAC had anticipated as far back as 1948. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 edit Greg, Was FICON the predecessor to the U-2 program, or was it supplanted by it? --Tolmmy The difference is a bit too subtle for my primitive outback mind,Tommy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) edit Greg, Was FICON the predecessor to the U-2 program, or was it supplanted by it? --Tolmmy The difference is a bit too subtle for my primitive outback mind,Tommy. Greg, I suppose I should take that into consideration. --Tommy Edited September 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 I'm going to jump in here since this is a subject I discuss at great length in Surprise Attack so at least its familiar to me. Aerial ferreting and reconnaissance of the Soviet Union started even before the treaty with Japan had been signed - as did planning for atomic strikes against Russia. The first aircraft considered for a major program of deep penetration missions (up to 5,000 miles) were propeller driven B-29 reconnaissance planes, however it would be the B-47's that would ultimately conduct multiple missions to Moscow and beyond. The FICON program was an option for extending penetration missions from prop engine reconnaissance bombers, especially with the sprint capability of a jet fighter. However the jet fighters would never have had the range to do deep photo missions across the Russian land mass. I'd have to say that the real comparable predecessor to the U-2 was not an aircraft at all but rather the high level photo balloon project designated Genetrix, which began sending cameras across the breadth of Russia in 1956. Some 500 Genetrix balloons were launched, many were shot down and ultimately 50 cameras were recovered providing photo coverage of some 8% of the Soviet Union. That was indeed a predecessor program to the U-2. Genetrix was complemented by the extensive SAC B-47 flights which began in 1954 and ultimately ended with the major operation designated as Project Homerun in 1956, One Homerun flight involved a formation of six B-47's which took off from Thule, Greenland and crossed the Pole, moving into and across Russia, exiting across the Bearing Strait and landing in Alaska. That was the sort of mission which SAC had anticipated as far back as 1948. Larry, while I agree that there were other ariel surveillance operations, FICON was certainly one of them. The aircraft used was a GRB-36D-III heavy reconnaissance plane out of the Convair factory. It carried a RF-84F reconnaissance plane into the target area suspended by a trapeze-like apparatus. How practical, success or otherwise it was, is not the point. The point is, it was an ariel surveillance program - a part of which was worked on by Sylvia Hoke for the CIA for a time period which coincides with Oswald's CAP career through to his plans to "defect". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I certainly agree there Greg, it was an interesting adaptation of what was initially to be a parasite fighter defense for the bomber (actually bringing back a concept for fighter defense for blimps) and making use of it for a short range high speed recon option....honestly I'm sort of perplexed as to why there would be a lot of special attention to selecting and preparing pilots other than the fact that they would be really at risk of being shot down. Or perhaps somebody had the wild idea of preparing a FICON pilot to ostensibly defect if he was shot down? I'll have to read that part again, what was the point of her studies. I don't recall any special mention of later SAC penetration air crews for that but perhaps it was a hangover from the Korean war fears of pilots being brainwashed? I'm curious as to whether you say any similar projects related to training U-2 pilots. I will say though that the number of research projects related to all areas of national security was immense at that point in the Cold war; I keep stumbling across Universities, think tanks and professors engaged in special studies for military branches or the CIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 I certainly agree there Greg, it was an interesting adaptation of what was initially to be a parasite fighter defense for the bomber (actually bringing back a concept for fighter defense for blimps) and making use of it for a short range high speed recon option....honestly I'm sort of perplexed as to why there would be a lot of special attention to selecting and preparing pilots other than the fact that they would be really at risk of being shot down. Or perhaps somebody had the wild idea of preparing a FICON pilot to ostensibly defect if he was shot down? I'll have to read that part again, what was the point of her studies. I don't recall any special mention of later SAC penetration air crews for that but perhaps it was a hangover from the Korean war fears of pilots being brainwashed? I'm curious as to whether you say any similar projects related to training U-2 pilots. I will say though that the number of research projects related to all areas of national security was immense at that point in the Cold war; I keep stumbling across Universities, think tanks and professors engaged in special studies for military branches or the CIA. Larry, the work she did had nothing to do with pilots. She was looking at electronic maintenance personnel with an emphasis on radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Again, I should really go read it but in lieu of that and for everyone who does not have it yet - what would that have to do with flying jets on reconnaissance missions? The prop aircraft would have had elint personnel on board, the FICON jet would most likely have had not much more than cameras. Of course you want to track the FICON jet and monitor what the defense is doing to detect it. Was she just looking at how to screen personnel for such recon missions, psych profiling or something like that. Sorry, will indeed go back and reread when I have a moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 OK, so I did reread it and it appears that the studies she was associated with were basic research into profiling selection procedures for electronic maintenance techs.....determining what school, work and other experience would best fit with the sort of training they would do and work they would get. It seems to me that would apply to almost anyone being screened for electronic maintenance positions. Might have gone into some of the recruit proficiency/screening tests as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) INTERNET RESULTS SYLVIA HOKE +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Standardization of the GATB for the Occupation of Tabulating Machine OperatorTM Operator - Journal of applied psychology, 1954 - psycnet.apa.org ... participated in the planning of the study, coordination of the collec- tion of data by the New Jersey,North Carolina, Wisconsin and California State Employment Serv- ices, and review of thecompleted study: Dr. Bea- trice J. Dvorak, Albert Mapou, Charles Meigh and Sylvia Hoke. ... Related articles Cite SaveSaving...SavedError saving. Try again? More Fewer [PDF] from dtic.mildtic.mil [PDF] ======================================== The Improvement of Television Instruction in Army Training: Application to Selected Hours in Basic Radio Circuits.J Kanner, O Desiderato, G Wischner, RJ Jones… - 1957 - DTIC Document Page 1. LASSIFIED ARMY TRAINING : APP—fit (U) !!O72 5O7 ~~~~~ AN RE ~~~~ cES R!RcHOR6ANIZAT1!LE ~~ NDRIA VA F/G 5/9 1 END DM0 U F!LME 0 I 9 —_79 — 00€ I I II Page 2. (' ~ ~~DIII2~ 1112.5 ~~~~~ _ _ _ _ ~~~~~ L ~~ = I ~I HH'8 I ~ IIID ~. ~ ... Cite SaveSaving...SavedError saving. Try again? More Library Search Fewer [PDF] from ed.goved.gov [PDF] ========================================= Bibliography of PublicationsCO This - ERIC Page 1. DOCUMENT RESUME ED 027 472 Human Resources Research OfficeBibliography of Publications as of 30 June 1968. George Washington Univ., Alexandria,Va. Human Resources Research Office. Pub Date Sep 68 Note- 295p. ... Cite SaveSaving...SavedError saving. Try again? More Fewer Create alert Edited September 14, 2015 by Steven Gaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 Again, I should really go read it but in lieu of that and for everyone who does not have it yet - what would that have to do with flying jets on reconnaissance missions? The prop aircraft would have had elint personnel on board, the FICON jet would most likely have had not much more than cameras. Of course you want to track the FICON jet and monitor what the defense is doing to detect it. Was she just looking at how to screen personnel for such recon missions, psych profiling or something like that. Sorry, will indeed go back and reread when I have a moment. Larry, from the original report put out by the HumRRO team: FICON:- Division 1 (systems operations) A study of Activities of Ordnance Fire-Control Maintenance Personnel in the Field and the Relationship Between Those Activities and Training Ordnance IFC Electronic Maintenance Personnel: Analysis of Activities with Implications for Training: Part 1 - M33.... ------------------- M33... http://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?http&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/Air%20Defense/USAREUR_ADA%20Overview%201.htm Research Bulletin - Issues 2-5 - Page 44 https://books.google.com.au/books?id=b7ReAAAAIAAJ George Washington University. Human Resources Research Office - 1955 - Snippet view - More editions In one group of studies, HumRRO concentrated on the AAFCS M33 operator.1 A comprehensive field survey of 116 radar operators in the Eastern Antiaircraft Command yielded a clear picture of operator activities, problems, and training. ----------------------------------------------- I'm just presenting what I find Here we have the CIA employed sister of the future benefactor of LHO working on a FICON project dealing with radar personnel at the same time Oswald is entering the Marines and being trained in that particular field. Taken in the fuller context of the likelihood that the Hyde clan knew the Ekdahls and that FICON had a ariel surveillance component, it all gets a little too coincidental for my taste. But no one has to agree with my take on it. I have more new info to come concerning the defection. Her specific role with the CIA during those years has now been published for the first time. At the very least.... that question is now answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Got you Greg and indeed its good work to tie down her connection. It's just that personally the things from Vol 2 that resonate the most with me are the CAP material, the connection to Ferrie and his role with Oswald early on as well as the College studies which extend George Michael Evica's work...that has always been very interesting to me and is a subject often ignored these days. By the way, Bill Kelley just sent me a link to a Lobster article on Oswald in Japan which I think is going to get a lot of discussion here. If he does not post it here soon I will put up the length. It seemed to me to be very well researched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) Here we have the CIA employed sister of the future benefactor of LHO working on a FICON project dealing with radar personnel at the same time Oswald is entering the Marines and being trained in that particular field. Taken in the fuller context of the likelihood that the Hyde clan knew the Ekdahls and that FICON had a ariel surveillance component, it all gets a little too coincidental for my taste. But no one has to agree with my take on it. I have more new info to come concerning the defection. Her specific role with the CIA during those years has now been published for the first time. At the very least.... that question is now answered. // PARKER QUOTE ##################################################################################################################################### Timeline of the Life of Lee Harvey Oswald By W. Tracy Parnell and also Warren Commission Timeline http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm January 10, 1948: Marguerite orders Ekdahl out of the house. June 24, 1948: The Ekdahls are divorced, and Marguerite retains the name Oswald. LHO completes the second grade. October, 1955: LHO tries to enlist in the Marines but is denied. Dolly Shoe (1955 SPRING ,W/C) November 10, 1955: LHO starts work as a messenger boy at Gerald F. Tujague Inc. ######################################################## THIRD DECADE ARTICLE SHOWS LHO HAS ODD SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER (DOLLY SHOE) (Probably intel related) gaal ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ KNEW THE EKDAHL'S ?? YOU MEAN HE WAS SELECTED FOR INTELL RIGHT AFTER SECOND GRADE ?? ,Welcome to Harvey & Lee.,gaal Edited September 14, 2015 by Steven Gaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 Here we have the CIA employed sister of the future benefactor of LHO working on a FICON project dealing with radar personnel at the same time Oswald is entering the Marines and being trained in that particular field. Taken in the fuller context of the likelihood that the Hyde clan knew the Ekdahls and that FICON had a ariel surveillance component, it all gets a little too coincidental for my taste. But no one has to agree with my take on it. I have more new info to come concerning the defection. Her specific role with the CIA during those years has now been published for the first time. At the very least.... that question is now answered. // PARKER QUOTE ##################################################################################################################################### Timeline of the Life of Lee Harvey Oswald By W. Tracy Parnell and also Warren Commission Timeline http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm January 10, 1948: Marguerite orders Ekdahl out of the house. June 24, 1948: The Ekdahls are divorced, and Marguerite retains the name Oswald. LHO completes the second grade. October, 1955: LHO tries to enlist in the Marines but is denied. Dolly Shoe (1955 SPRING ,W/C) November 10, 1955: LHO starts work as a messenger boy at Gerald F. Tujague Inc. ######################################################## THIRD DECADE ARTICLE SHOWS LHO HAS ODD SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER (DOLLY SHOE) (Probably intel related) gaal ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ KNEW THE EKDAHL'S ?? YOU MEAN HE WAS SELECTED FOR INTELL RIGHT AFTER SECOND GRADE ?? ,Welcome to Harvey & Lee.,gaal See ya, Stevo. I've had my fill off idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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