A Question for Sandy Larsen Regarding "Big Girl" / Gloria Calvery

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/26/2017 at 11:18 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 3/6/2017 at 4:41 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

There is no further information in the subsequent reports on Lovelady and Shelley regarding their leaving the steps. However, in the March/April 1964 FBI interviews of all the TSBD employees, both Lovelady's and Shelley's affidavits mention -- for the first time -- their walk down Elm St. extension and their entering the TSBD through the door on the west.

Sandy,

That's interesting.

Thanks.

 

I think this 11/22/63 FBI report is probably the most accurate description of what Lovelady and Shelley really did.  

 

In my words:

 "Upon hearing people screaming after the last shot, Shelley and Lovelady ran across Elm Street Extension as far as the concrete 'Island' to get a better view of the limo as it continued down Elm Street and disappeared through the Triple Underpass.  On said 'Island' they encountered a running, crying, Gloria Calvery, who told them what she'd seen about 45 yards down Elm Street.  Shelley immediately left them and ran back across Elm Street Extension and inside the TSBD to call his wife, while Calvery and a dressed-in-white colleague accompanied Lovelady back to the TSBD steps where his partially-eaten lunch and soda pop were still waiting for him, and in the Couch-Darnell clip he was "caught" talking to Calvery there on the steps as she continued describing to him what she and her dressed-in-white colleague had seen."

--  Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited April 7, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 4/7/2017 at 9:53 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 3/26/2017 at 0:18 PM, Thomas Graves said:

On 3/6/2017 at 5:41 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

There is no further information in the subsequent reports on Lovelady and Shelley regarding their leaving the steps. However, in the March/April 1964 FBI interviews of all the TSBD employees, both Lovelady's and Shelley's affidavits mention -- for the first time -- their walk down Elm St. extension and their entering the TSBD through the door on the west.

Sandy,

That's interesting.

Thanks.

 

I think this 11/22/63 FBI report is probably the most accurate description of what Lovelady and Shelley really did.  

 

In my words:

 "Upon hearing people screaming after the last shot, Shelley and Lovelady ran across Elm Street Extension as far as the concrete 'Island' to get a better view of the limo as it continued down Elm Street and disappeared through the Triple Underpass.  On said 'Island' they encountered a running, crying, Gloria Calvery, who told them what she'd seen about 45 yards down Elm Street.  Shelley immediately left them and ran back across Elm Street Extension and inside the TSBD to call his wife, while Calvery and a dressed-in-white colleague accompanied Lovelady back to the TSBD steps where his partially-eaten lunch and soda pop were still waiting for him, and in the Couch-Darnell clip he was "caught" talking to Calvery there on the steps as she continued describing to him what she and her dressed-in-white colleague had seen."

--  Tommy

edited and bumped

Tommy,

What you wrote (above, where you say "In my words") is exactly the same conclusion I came to.

First-day affidavits are the most reliable testimony (IMO), though they do leave out details. The great thing about the FBI's first-day report on Lovelady's experience (above) -- which you put in your own words -- is that it contains a little more detail than his first-day DPD affidavit provides. That extra detail corroborates what Shelley and others said about immediately crossing the Elm Street extension over to the concrete island. (Frazier said that the Shelley and Lovelady did that.)

The fact that the two immediately (!!!) crossed over to the island, where Shelley talked to Gloria Calvery (as per his first-day statement) is corroborated by what we see in the Darnell/Couch clip. In that we see Gloria Calvery (and her friend who is wearing all white, including her scarf) already standing on the steps talking to Lovelady. So we know that by this time in the clip, Lovelady and Shelley have already crossed over to the island and returned. Shelley had already talked to Gloria Calvery at the island (as per his first-day affidavit), returned to the TSBD, and gone inside to call his wife (also as per his first-day affidavit).

With our recent identification of Gloria Calvery,all this has become perfectly clear IMO.

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

With our recent identification of Gloria Calvery, all this has become perfectly clear IMO.

The question remaining now is, did Shelley come back outside (after calling his wife) so that he and Lovelady could walked together to the railroad yard, and then back into the west entrance of the TSBD, as they claimed they did in their 1964 FBI interviews?

In Shelley's first-day DPD affidavit, he said he stayed inside the building after calling his wife. Here is that affidavit:
 

Neither Shelley nor Lovelady ever mentioned walking down the extension to the railroad yard till the March/April 1964 FBI interviews of the TSBD witnesses. At that time, they both said they made that little journey. Neither mentioned talking to Gloria Calvery. But of great significance is what Lovelady said about crossing over to the concrete island. He said that he and Shelley stayed at the island for five minutes!

Recall that the Darnell/Couch clip proves that the two of them could not have stayed at the island any longer than a few seconds... no more than about 5 seconds. And yet in his 1964 FBI interview Lovelady changes that to 5 minutes! (See page 62 of this document: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf )

I won't name names, but I've seen certain members of the forum say that people can get confused and believe that 30 seconds could in reality be three minutes. Clearly they do this so that the data will fit their preconceived theory or notion. I wonder if they will think that Lovelady could have confused 3 or 4 seconds with 3 minutes. We shall see.

Anyway, what this tells me is that Lovelady is doing some fibbing. But for what purpose?

If you read Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies, you will see that they do both testify that they took that walk to the railroad yard, and entered the TSBD through one of the west entrances. The problem is, they also both testified that after the shooting occurred, they stayed on the steps for about three minute, after which time Gloria Calvery arrived. It was only after that that the two took their walk across to the island and then on to the railroad yard.

Wow! Lets compare what they said to what the Darnell/Couch clip proves to be the case*:

How long after the shooting before Shelley & Lovelady left the steps:

WC Testimony:  3 minutes.
Truth:                Immediately.

Where they met Gloria Calvery:

WC Testimony:  At the TSBD steps.
Truth:                At the concrete island.

How long it took for Gloria Calvery to arrive at the steps:

WC Testimony:  3 minutes
Truth:                9 to 12 seconds

 

And there's more. For example (which I will be doing from memory):

How long they stayed at the concrete island:

WC Testimony:  1.5 minutes
Truth:                3 or 4 seconds

(*Some of these "truths" rely upon facts drawn from the Zapruder film, and from applying common sense.)

 

Shelley and Lovelady obviously lied before the WC. The fact that their lies closely matched each other tells me that they rehearsed the whole story.

My overall conclusion is that the trip to the railroad yard was fabricated. Judging by the time elements lengthened (e.g. 3 minutes instead of 3 or 4 seconds), it seems clear that it was important to the story that the timing of the trip be lengthened. And since nothing of any significance happened during their walk, the only other thing of importance was that Shelley and Lovelady enter the west TSBD entrance, not the front.

In short, the purpose of the fabricated story was to have Shelley and Lovelady enter the west entrance of the TSBD several minutes after the shooting.