Zapruder Film Provenance - For Bill Kelly

[Jerry Logan]

BILL''And I don't accept your conclusion that we'll never know, as we are learning more every day, and it's getting exciting, isn't it?''

BILL ANY THOUGHTS..I HAVE BEEN READING WITHIN SOME POSTS OF LATE THIS WE'LL NEVER KNOW CLAP TRAP IMO...IS THIS TO BE OR IS THIS THE NEWEST PLOY LINE...IMO THAT IS CRAP AS YOU SAY ''I think we are closer now than ever before. '' SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A NEW EXCUSE BEING FORMULATED WHICH WILL be ADDed TO AS IT CONTINUES I HAVE NO DOUBT...BY THOSE WHO BASICALLY DO NOT BELIEVE THE ZAPPY IS ALTERED...AND IN THE PAST HAVE LET THAT BE KNOWN..I ALSO SEE ONE IN PARTICULAR CLIMBING ON THE BAND WAGON SUDDENLY TRYING TO GIVE THE IMPRESSION OF EITHER BEING A CONVERT , OR SUGGESTING THEY ALWAyS PERHAPS kNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITHIN...WHY ??SO THAT WHICHEVER WAY THE RESULT FALLS WILL BE THEY THINK ON SAFE GROUND WITHIN THE ALTS FORUMS AND OTHERS...HMMM ONE NEVER KNOWS, IT CERTAINLY IS GETTING INTERESTING...IMO... B, EXCUSE CAPITOLS THANKS...MUCH..

Bernice and Bill,

With all respect, that's not what I wrote.

"In fact, if I were going to make an assumption, it would be that the original A roll, the family pictures, never left Dallas for Life or anywhere else. Why would Zapruder want to give them up and why would Life want them. As I wrote, that's assumption and speculation, we'll never know unless more information comes to light. "

In short, we'll never know if Zapruder's family film left Dallas, unless we gather more information. I don't see how that's a ploy or clap-trap. I made it clear I was offering some speculation and suggesting that I could never be proven right unless we had more information. If that's part of the evil plan Bernice it's really, really subtle and I assure you, well beyond me.

Bill, I'm with you. I've never been impressed with the "image anomalies", but some of Horne's information is new and exciting and I really want to know where it leads. That said, I think it's important to separate out the new facts from assumptions and speculation so we can determine what evidence is needed to really establish something interesting. It's definitely not my conclusion that we'll never know - but I do think there's more work to be done.

Jerry

Jerry,

Certainly some of Zapruder's family film DID leave Dallas.

A frame or two from the sequence of one of Zapruders children or grandchildren digging in a planter on a patio with a shovel was published in Esquire magazine, early 1970's as I recall. It accompanied the Stolley article on the film that appeared in that issue.

Todd

Here's one Todd...b

We should all also take note that the still of the boy digging has no sprocket hole image, thus, it is from a copy of the film, perhaps one made in black and white.

Todd,

As you've noted, my question is if the original family film ever left Dallas. If one or more copies were left un-slit then some family images had to leave - but not the original.

So I think we're on the same page. However, I disagree with your analysis of the frame Bernice posted. I don't see the full inter-sprocket area but I do see the sides of the sprocket holes.

However, although the sprockets are not visible on the motorcade copies, they are visible on the family film copies. Therefore the sprocket holes don't settle the issue of the source of this frame. It could be from the original or from a copy.

BTW Bernice, I'm always amazed at the resources you have close to hand. Thanks for finding that image and putting it up.

Best to you both,

Jerry

Jerry,

Certainly I see the partial sides (corners actually) of the sprocket holes in the picture that Bernice posted.

When I wrote that it “has no sprocket hole image”, my meaning was that there is no filmed image visible between what we can see of the sprocket holes, not that we can’t see images of the sprocket holes themselves.

Since the picture that we are looking at (the picture that Bernice posted) has no filmed image visible between what we can see of the sprocket holes, it cannot be a picture of the original film (or one of the first day copies) and must be a picture of a later copy of the film.

Todd

Ok Todd, thanks for the clarification. Now that I understand - I agree!

Best to you,

Jerry

[Todd W. Vaughan]

BILL''And I don't accept your conclusion that we'll never know, as we are learning more every day, and it's getting exciting, isn't it?''

BILL ANY THOUGHTS..I HAVE BEEN READING WITHIN SOME POSTS OF LATE THIS WE'LL NEVER KNOW CLAP TRAP IMO...IS THIS TO BE OR IS THIS THE NEWEST PLOY LINE...IMO THAT IS CRAP AS YOU SAY ''I think we are closer now than ever before. '' SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A NEW EXCUSE BEING FORMULATED WHICH WILL be ADDed TO AS IT CONTINUES I HAVE NO DOUBT...BY THOSE WHO BASICALLY DO NOT BELIEVE THE ZAPPY IS ALTERED...AND IN THE PAST HAVE LET THAT BE KNOWN..I ALSO SEE ONE IN PARTICULAR CLIMBING ON THE BAND WAGON SUDDENLY TRYING TO GIVE THE IMPRESSION OF EITHER BEING A CONVERT , OR SUGGESTING THEY ALWAyS PERHAPS kNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITHIN...WHY ??SO THAT WHICHEVER WAY THE RESULT FALLS WILL BE THEY THINK ON SAFE GROUND WITHIN THE ALTS FORUMS AND OTHERS...HMMM ONE NEVER KNOWS, IT CERTAINLY IS GETTING INTERESTING...IMO... B, EXCUSE CAPITOLS THANKS...MUCH..

Bernice and Bill,

With all respect, that's not what I wrote.

"In fact, if I were going to make an assumption, it would be that the original A roll, the family pictures, never left Dallas for Life or anywhere else. Why would Zapruder want to give them up and why would Life want them. As I wrote, that's assumption and speculation, we'll never know unless more information comes to light. "

In short, we'll never know if Zapruder's family film left Dallas, unless we gather more information. I don't see how that's a ploy or clap-trap. I made it clear I was offering some speculation and suggesting that I could never be proven right unless we had more information. If that's part of the evil plan Bernice it's really, really subtle and I assure you, well beyond me.

Bill, I'm with you. I've never been impressed with the "image anomalies", but some of Horne's information is new and exciting and I really want to know where it leads. That said, I think it's important to separate out the new facts from assumptions and speculation so we can determine what evidence is needed to really establish something interesting. It's definitely not my conclusion that we'll never know - but I do think there's more work to be done.

Jerry

Jerry,

Certainly some of Zapruder's family film DID leave Dallas.

A frame or two from the sequence of one of Zapruders children or grandchildren digging in a planter on a patio with a shovel was published in Esquire magazine, early 1970's as I recall. It accompanied the Stolley article on the film that appeared in that issue.

Todd

Here's one Todd...b

We should all also take note that the still of the boy digging has no sprocket hole image, thus, it is from a copy of the film, perhaps one made in black and white.

Todd,

As you've noted, my question is if the original family film ever left Dallas. If one or more copies were left un-slit then some family images had to leave - but not the original.

So I think we're on the same page. However, I disagree with your analysis of the frame Bernice posted. I don't see the full inter-sprocket area but I do see the sides of the sprocket holes.

However, although the sprockets are not visible on the motorcade copies, they are visible on the family film copies. Therefore the sprocket holes don't settle the issue of the source of this frame. It could be from the original or from a copy.

BTW Bernice, I'm always amazed at the resources you have close to hand. Thanks for finding that image and putting it up.

Best to you both,

Jerry

Jerry,

Certainly I see the partial sides (corners actually) of the sprocket holes in the picture that Bernice posted.

When I wrote that it “has no sprocket hole image”, my meaning was that there is no filmed image visible between what we can see of the sprocket holes, not that we can’t see images of the sprocket holes themselves.

Since the picture that we are looking at (the picture that Bernice posted) has no filmed image visible between what we can see of the sprocket holes, it cannot be a picture of the original film (or one of the first day copies) and must be a picture of a later copy of the film.

Todd

Ok Todd, thanks for the clarification. Now that I understand - I agree!

Best to you,

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, have a great night.

[William Kelly]

The UFO and U2 Origins of the NPIC

Before there was a National Photo Interpretation Center (NPIC), there was the Navy Photo Interpretation Center at the Washington Navy Yard at Anacosta.

In 1952 the Navy Photo Interpretation Center was headed by Art Lundahl, who had served in the Navy in the Pacific during WWII.

On July 2, 1952, at 11:00 am, on a bright, clear morning, Warrant Officer Delbert C. Newhouse, accompanied by his wife and two children aged 12 and 14, was driving along the open highway a half dozen miles from Tremonton, in Northern Utah, when they saw some strange lights that Newhouse filmed with a 16 mm projector.

On January 14-18, 1953 the Robertson Panel met and eventually issued the secret – The Durant Report – http://www.cufon.org/cufon/robert.htm

"The first day, the panel viewed two amateur motion pictures of UFOs: the Mariana UFO Incident footage and 1952 Utah UFO Film (the latter was taken by Navy Chief Petty Officer Delbert C. Newhouse, who had extensive experience with aerial photography). Two Navy photograph and film analysts (Lieutenants R.S. Neasham and Harry Woo) then reported their conclusions: based on more than 1,000 man hours of detailed analysis, the two films depicted objects that were not any known aircraft, creature or weather phenomena..."

"(Note: Brad Sparks was the only researcher ever to interview Woo, who died in 1976. Woo had joined the CIA, in its highly secret Technical Services Division of the Clandestine Service working on spy cameras, several months after the Robertson Panel. Woo was still angry decades later at how the Panel scientists mistreated him and he praised Hynek for "sticking up" for him.)"

While the Robertson Panel didn't buy the conclusions of the Navy Photo Interpreters, the CIA hired Lundahl to run their new National Photo Interpretation Center (NPIC), which would be responsible for analysis of all U2 and satellite photos. Lundahl brought Neasham and Woo with him, and they operated out of the second floor of the Steuart's Motor Garage at 5th and K Streets.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2010/02...-garage-dc.html

With CIA missile specialist Sidney Greybeal plotting the U2 flight paths, and Jack Maury, the CIA's Covert Soviet chief running Col.Oleg Penkovsky as a double-agent in the Soviet ranks, NPIC was eventually responsible for 70% of the current, strategic intelligence being reported to senior US policy makers.

After determining there really was no missile gap, they also detected the Soviet missiles in Cuba, and Lundahl and Greybeal sparked the Cuban Missile Crisis with their briefing in October 1962.

After the crisis was over, the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board visited the NPIC at Steuart's Garage and decided they needed newer quarters, so JFK ordered McCone to get them a new shop, which was Building 213 at the Washington Navy Yard at Anacosta, where they started out years earlier.

The move occurred in January, 1963, and it was there, at the new NPIC where the Zapruder film made two appearances over the weekend of the assassination, both times to make color print enlargments for briefing boards, one of which was used to brief CIA director John McCone (and ostensibly LBJ) but it has yet to be determined who was briefed with the second set of briefing boards.

Edited February 4, 2010 by William Kelly