Dealing with deniers

[Guest Tom Scully]

...and ever since Obama took office, that conviction has only gotten stronger, and more urgent. In my view, the matter now transcends traditional politics, and the Left/Right paradigm. I sense that we have become a militarized, oligarchic state, much like Italy under Mussolini, and that our situation is actually desperate. Only the involvement of committed, free, and informed individuals can tilt the scales at this point. People are still hypnotized by sporting events and other distractions, although there are some hopeful signs that this is changing. Tom

Yes, Tom, welcome to the forum. I fear there is not much to be done at this critical point. It would be one thing if most around us were only distracted by bread and circuses but still had a sense of how to discern what is and isn't in their own best interests. Most seem to have become indifferent to the alarming per capita incarceration rate, the seperate, prosecution free "justice" policy towards the elite, the relentless attack against Bill of Rights protections, the quadrupling of "defense"-intel expenditures in just the span of a decade. If anything, if they're not indifferent to it all, most seem to support these developments. They're committed to partisanship as if there were opposing political platforms offering clear and meaningful diversity of direction for the country.

Increasingly it seems more attractive to move to a more reasonable place than to attempt to effect change that will take place rapidly enough to matter. This is a nation leading an alliance of English speaking countries no longer in touch with what it stands for or is fighting to uphold and protect. It stands for no principles and rationalizes the values it has abandoned as limits and protections only those it dominates militarily, must observe. An elected president under our Constitution is an outlaw if he takes the authority to act outside the legal framework and protections which were formerly guarantees in place to protect us against exactly what he now claims he has the authority to do unilaterally.

There is no textbook instructing us on how to continue to live in a country where the president claims the privilege to detain indefinitely or order the execution by drone assassination of anyone (even absent any existing formal charge of a crime) without affording them a judicial hearing or where he can simply overrule the decision of the DOJ to prosecute detainees in criminal court. The congress watches and mostly supports these abuses instead of drafting articles of impeachment against the president and putting him to a senate trial for failing to abide by his oath to preserve and protect the Constitution.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Tom Scully

[Thomas Kroger]

Here is a recent post from S V Anderson, on the Amazon discussion board entitled "What have Conspiracy Nuts Brought to the Table after 47 Years." I won't post there again, because as Robert Morrow observed, the title alone is an insult. But I think that what Anderson says here is so wrong and misleading, that it warrants a rebuttal -

"And Charles has hit upon some of the key weakneses in believing in elaborate conspiracies.

1. In conspiracy-think there are no coincidences, ALL things happen as a part of the great eternal planned conspiracy. Oswald is PLACED in the TSBD as an employee, Oswald goes to Russia as part of the plot, Oswald marries Marina as part of the plot, Oswald has the bacdkyard photographs as a part of the plot (ask Robert Morrow, he believes this nonsense), Lee Bowers doesn't accidentally drive his car off the highway but is murdered, Roger Craig is murdered because he "knew too much", all are part of the conspiracy." {This is utter nonesense. I, for one, could doubtlessly be labeled as a "conspiracy theorist." But I also believe in a mathematical paradigm called "chaos theory," which makes precise or accurate predictions of the future impossible. The term "conspiracy" comes from the Greek conspiros, which means "to breathe together." It IS possible, for a committed, aligned group to carry out a pre-designed scheme, such as shooting a President. But it doesn't follow from that that ALL that happens after the planned event goes according to plan. In the JFK matter, several things went terribly awry. The "patsy" ended up in police custody rather than being killed on the spot, and many researchers believe that nearly exposed the plot for what it was. Another area that threatens to spin out of their control NOW derives from David Lifton's pioneering research. He disclosed the fact that the Dallas wounds were less than half the size of those observed at Bethesda, and that even Humes commented that there appeared to be "surgery of the head." That is MAJOR, and represents a very serious, unresolved difficulty for those who continue to deny the REALITY of a conspiracy. Then there's that revealing medical sketch from Dr. McClelland. WC apologists can't make it go away, even though it is obvious that they seek to explain it away. And it's nonsense. Since when was establishing the size and location of a wound so problematic? But even something that obvious won't dissuade them. So they stupidly insist that we continue to buy their lame explanations, all of which MUST culminate in the improbable trajectory of C.E. 399 - the so-called "Magic Bullet," which is an affront to any thinking person. But my point is clear. It is quite possible to be a conspiracy theorist, and KNOW that several degrees out, any situation becomes untidy, and unpredictable. What S V Anderson is trying to sell here is overgeneralized hogwash.}

"2. ALL of the people in the conspiracy are able to resist the temptation to tell their story to make money or gain fame. ALL of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that would have to be involved in such an elaborate conspiracy, all manage to keep quiet their entire lives. If I tell a neighbor that my wife is pregnant, in twelve hours ten people know, but if 300 people plot to murder the president somehow they magically are able to remain silent and no one talks.

There is an old saying that is 100% true and which 100% discredits all conspiracy theories: "Three people can keep a secret as long as two of them are dead." {Again, utter nonsense. Sylvia Odio has yet to make a dime from her visitation by Oswald immediately before the assassination, and there are others. She's probably in fear of her life, but on his deathbed, Santo Trafficante made some interesting disclosures. And I don't think anyone paid him for it.}

"3. EVERYTHING that occurs is part of the conspiracy. Among the nuttier of the conspiracy kooks there are beliefs that: Abraham Zapruder was part of the conspiracy, hired to film the motorcade right where he did so that the first striking shot was blocked by the street sign, Howard Brennan was part of the plot, Helen Markham was part of the conspiracy, J.D. Tippit was part of the conspiracy, virtually EVERYONE in the story was somehow involved in the conspiracy. It soon gets to the point where reading conspiracy theories literally makes you feel more and more stupid." {REALLY??? What S V Anderson says here is just counterfactual. I suppose anything is possible, in an empty mathematical sense, but the impression I get is that most researchers are far more intelligent than the general population. To entertain possibilities that might at first seem far-fetched is a part of their job description. That's the idea-generation phase of constructing a theory. Criticism and analysis come later. So S V Anderson doesn't know what he is talking about, which doesn't surprise me in a case of this sort, because if he is what he purports to be - a historian - crime and crime investigation is NOT his area of expertise, and he is completely out of his depth and understanding of the cognitive style involved.} TGK

Edited April 19, 2011 by Thomas Kroger

[Thomas Kroger]

...and ever since Obama took office, that conviction has only gotten stronger, and more urgent. In my view, the matter now transcends traditional politics, and the Left/Right paradigm. I sense that we have become a militarized, oligarchic state, much like Italy under Mussolini, and that our situation is actually desperate. Only the involvement of committed, free, and informed individuals can tilt the scales at this point. People are still hypnotized by sporting events and other distractions, although there are some hopeful signs that this is changing. Tom

Yes, Tom, welcome to the forum. I fear there is not much to be done at this critical point. It would be one thing if most around us were only distracted by bread and circuses but still had a sense of how to discern what is and isn't in their own best interests. Most seem to have become indifferent to the alarming per capita incarceration rate, the seperate, prosecution free "justice" policy towards the elite, the relentless attack against Bill of Rights protections, the quadrupling of "defense"-intel expenditures in just the span of a decade. If anything, if they're not indifferent to it all, most seem to support these developments. They're committed to partisanship as if there were opposing political platforms offering clear and meaningful diversity of direction for the country.

Increasingly it seems more attractive to move to a more reasonable place than to attempt to effect change that will take place rapidly enough to matter. This is a nation leading an alliance of English speaking countries no longer in touch with what it stands for or is fighting to uphold and protect. It stands for no principles and rationalizes the values it has abandoned as limits and protections only those it dominates militarily, must observe. An elected president under our Constitution is an outlaw if he takes the authority to act outside the legal framework and protections which were formerly guarantees in place to protect us against exactly what he now claims he has the authority to do unilaterally.

There is no textbook instructing us on how to continue to live in a country where the president claims the privilege to detain indefinitely or order the execution by drone assassination of anyone (even absent any existing formal charge of a crime) without affording them a judicial hearing or where he can simply overrule the decision of the DOJ to prosecute detainees in criminal court. The congress watches and mostly supports these abuses instead of drafting articles of impeachment against the president and putting him to a senate trial for failing to abide by his oath to preserve and protect the Constitution.

I can only remark that I am greatly encouraged, that a discussion forum such as this one exists, and I will participate in it, to the best of my ability. I sense that we're all on the same side here. I don't imagine that anyone here wants to see our traditional form of government disappear. The problem is, that we have very powerful factions in our society that DO want exactly that. They are getting bolder, and more open, as time goes on. I also realize, as I'm certain that you do, that the Internet is under attack for just that reason. We have to remain alert. While I appreciate your post for the thought-provoking piece that it is, I can't take comfort in it, because it happens to be true. We are both too intelligent to be comforted in times such as these. And I think that's true of virtually everyone here. TGK

Edited April 19, 2011 by Thomas Kroger

[Thomas Kroger]

From Shaboo2:

“You know, that stupid "magic bullet" deal was what first got me hooked as a conspiracy theorist. Once I found out it was possible, then probable, then undenialable, I realized how guilty I was of yelling "FIRE!" with my fellow nuts.

Now, out of the seemingly endless conspiracy theories and illusuions I think that the magic bullet is perhaps the EASIEST theory to debunk. If you are truly objective, and aren't out to make a buck, and do some reading, it is as clear as the sky on a sunny day.

God, to think I was once in the same bin as the magic bullet loonies frightens me. At least I can reference that as the time I WOKE up and saw the LIGHT.

For chistmas sake, even the infamous idiot Cyril Wecht realizes that now. Oops, wait, did I just say that I believe one thing that Wecht said? God forgive me!

not pristine and glaringly obvious on film with the enhancements done, starting with the work done by Failure Analysis, Inc.

The only difference between me and magic bullet people is that I have an open mind and finally woke up.

Bottom line: one bullet, two men, not pristine, and documented by film.”

***

This recent post from Shaboo2 – presented without any modification or corrections - is typical of what passes for discussion these days on the Amazon discussion board entitled “What have Conspiracy Nuts brought to the table after 47 years?”

I just viewed Groden’s film entitled JFK The Case For Conspiracy, along with Evidence of Revision. After hearing the testimony of SIX Parkland doctors, that there was a massive REAR EXIT WOUND in JFK’s skull, and keeping in mind that merely a small tracheotomy incision was made over the throat wound, which was later enlarged to be massive and gaping so as to resemble an exit wound, I see her post for the garbage that it is.

Worse, it is inflammatory garbage. When she calls Dr. Wecht – one of the country’s most distinguished forsensic pathologists – an idiot, what does she expect, other than to enrage those of us who respect him, for the courageous individual that he is? Taking the time to respond to a post such as this, and getting bogged down into a discussion with someone like “her,” is a waste of time.

If anyone chooses to comment on Groden’s film, OR Evidence of Revision using tact and diplomacy, I’d be interested in hearing what they have to say. But I am through with the Amazon discussion boards. I will present materials here, for criticism and review, because I have a manuscript to prepare, and I want to address potential rebuttals earlier, rather than later. I believe this is a far better place to go to, for constructive criticism, and honest analysis, and that is why I raise these issues here.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Thomas Kroger

[Thomas H. Purvis]

From Shaboo2:

“You know, that stupid "magic bullet" deal was what first got me hooked as a conspiracy theorist. Once I found out it was possible, then probable, then undenialable, I realized how guilty I was of yelling "FIRE!" with my fellow nuts.

Now, out of the seemingly endless conspiracy theories and illusuions I think that the magic bullet is perhaps the EASIEST theory to debunk. If you are truly objective, and aren't out to make a buck, and do some reading, it is as clear as the sky on a sunny day.

God, to think I was once in the same bin as the magic bullet loonies frightens me. At least I can reference that as the time I WOKE up and saw the LIGHT.

For chistmas sake, even the infamous idiot Cyril Wecht realizes that now. Oops, wait, did I just say that I believe one thing that Wecht said? God forgive me!

not pristine and glaringly obvious on film with the enhancements done, starting with the work done by Failure Analysis, Inc.

The only difference between me and magic bullet people is that I have an open mind and finally woke up.

Bottom line: one bullet, two men, not pristine, and documented by film.”

***

This recent post from Shaboo2 – presented without any modification or corrections - is typical of what passes for discussion these days on the Amazon discussion board entitled “What have Conspiracy Nuts brought to the table after 47 years?”

I just viewed Groden’s film entitled JFK The Case For Conspiracy, along with Evidence of Revision. After hearing the testimony of SIX Parkland doctors, that there was a massive REAR EXIT WOUND in JFK’s skull, and keeping in mind that merely a small tracheotomy incision was made over the throat wound, which was later enlarged to be massive and gaping so as to resemble an exit wound, I see her post for the garbage that it is.

Worse, it is inflammatory garbage. When she calls Dr. Wecht – one of the country’s most distinguished forsensic pathologists – an idiot, what does she expect, other than to enrage those of us who respect him, for the courageous individual that he is? Taking the time to respond to a post such as this, and getting bogged down into a discussion with someone like “her,” is a waste of time.

If anyone chooses to comment on Groden’s film, OR Evidence of Revision using tact and diplomacy, I’d be interested in hearing what they have to say. But I am through with the Amazon discussion boards. I will present materials here, for criticism and review, because I have a manuscript to prepare, and I want to address potential rebuttals earlier, rather than later. I believe this is a far better place to go to, for constructive criticism, and honest analysis, and that is why I raise these issues here.

"You know, that stupid "magic bullet" deal was what first got me hooked as a conspiracy theorist. Once I found out it was possible, then probable, then undenialable, I realized how guilty I was of yelling "FIRE!" with my fellow nuts."

Since I personally have never been sufficently gullible to have considered the "Magic Bullet"/SBT theory as having much, if any basis in fact, then it also escapes me as to exactly what chain of logic would ever convince one to believe and/or accept the theory to begin with.

Therefore, in event that one can become "convinced" that something is factual and they can then be "convinced" that it is not factual, then I personally would not place much credence in anything they may have to state.

Ever hear the old saying about "whichever way the wind blows"?

A member of this forum once stated it sufficiently: "Now, I have to relearn everything".

Nope!

One is not "learning" if they are making decisions in judgment based on inaccurate (hearsay; half-truth; rumor; innuendo; etc; etc; etc;)information.

However! In event that they actually go back and look at what "error" lead them to believe inaccurate information to begin with, then they just may learn NOT to allow such to occur again.

Not unlike history: "those who fail to learn from it are doomed to repeat it", so goes the investigation into any endeavor to determine factual knowledge.

[Thomas Kroger]

From Shaboo2:

“You know, that stupid "magic bullet" deal was what first got me hooked as a conspiracy theorist. Once I found out it was possible, then probable, then undenialable, I realized how guilty I was of yelling "FIRE!" with my fellow nuts.

Now, out of the seemingly endless conspiracy theories and illusuions I think that the magic bullet is perhaps the EASIEST theory to debunk. If you are truly objective, and aren't out to make a buck, and do some reading, it is as clear as the sky on a sunny day.

God, to think I was once in the same bin as the magic bullet loonies frightens me. At least I can reference that as the time I WOKE up and saw the LIGHT.

For chistmas sake, even the infamous idiot Cyril Wecht realizes that now. Oops, wait, did I just say that I believe one thing that Wecht said? God forgive me!

not pristine and glaringly obvious on film with the enhancements done, starting with the work done by Failure Analysis, Inc.

The only difference between me and magic bullet people is that I have an open mind and finally woke up.

Bottom line: one bullet, two men, not pristine, and documented by film.”

***

This recent post from Shaboo2 – presented without any modification or corrections - is typical of what passes for discussion these days on the Amazon discussion board entitled “What have Conspiracy Nuts brought to the table after 47 years?”

I just viewed Groden’s film entitled JFK The Case For Conspiracy, along with Evidence of Revision. After hearing the testimony of SIX Parkland doctors, that there was a massive REAR EXIT WOUND in JFK’s skull, and keeping in mind that merely a small tracheotomy incision was made over the throat wound, which was later enlarged to be massive and gaping so as to resemble an exit wound, I see her post for the garbage that it is.

Worse, it is inflammatory garbage. When she calls Dr. Wecht – one of the country’s most distinguished forsensic pathologists – an idiot, what does she expect, other than to enrage those of us who respect him, for the courageous individual that he is? Taking the time to respond to a post such as this, and getting bogged down into a discussion with someone like “her,” is a waste of time.

If anyone chooses to comment on Groden’s film, OR Evidence of Revision using tact and diplomacy, I’d be interested in hearing what they have to say. But I am through with the Amazon discussion boards. I will present materials here, for criticism and review, because I have a manuscript to prepare, and I want to address potential rebuttals earlier, rather than later. I believe this is a far better place to go to, for constructive criticism, and honest analysis, and that is why I raise these issues here.

"You know, that stupid "magic bullet" deal was what first got me hooked as a conspiracy theorist. Once I found out it was possible, then probable, then undenialable, I realized how guilty I was of yelling "FIRE!" with my fellow nuts."

Since I personally have never been sufficently gullible to have considered the "Magic Bullet"/SBT theory as having much, if any basis in fact, then it also escapes me as to exactly what chain of logic would ever convince one to believe and/or accept the theory to begin with.

Therefore, in event that one can become "convinced" that something is factual and they can then be "convinced" that it is not factual, then I personally would not place much credence in anything they may have to state.

Ever hear the old saying about "whichever way the wind blows"?

A member of this forum once stated it sufficiently: "Now, I have to relearn everything".

Nope!

One is not "learning" if they are making decisions in judgment based on inaccurate (hearsay; half-truth; rumor; innuendo; etc; etc; etc;)information.

However! In event that they actually go back and look at what "error" lead them to believe inaccurate information to begin with, then they just may learn NOT to allow such to occur again.

Not unlike history: "those who fail to learn from it are doomed to repeat it", so goes the investigation into any endeavor to determine factual knowledge.

Nicely put. Like you, I never gave it much credence to begin with, and the more I learned about how improbable the trajectory really was - e,g, a bullet making a 90% turn in mid-air, the thought occurred to me "Do they really think we're that stupid?" I have Gerald Posner's book, and it is possibly the NEXT book I

[Thomas Kroger]

Nicely put. Like you, I never gave it much credence to begin with, and the more I learned about how improbable the trajectory really was – e.g. a bullet making a 90% turn in mid-air - the thought occurred to me "Do they really think we're that stupid?" I have Gerald Posner's book, and it is possibly the NEXT book I will read. If anyone here knows of an especially good review or criticism of the work, please advise. There is no point in re-inventing the wheel. I plan to devote particular attention to this work, because I understand that it is the bible of conspiracy debunkers. This MUST be so, because if Magic Bullet fails, so does their entire theory of the assassination.

That is NOT to say that their theory can’t be attacked on other grounds, however. Robert Groden assembled some very formidable testimonials in his film JFK The Case for Conspiracy. In it, six of the Parkland doctors testify that there was an exit wound in the rear of Kennedy’s skull, just as Dr. McClelland depicted in his sketch. What makes this especially bad from the viewpoint of conspiracy deniers is that it represents untainted, early evidence from expert witnesses, including RN Audrey Bell, who concurred with these doctors. Moreover, she specifically states that Kennedy’s head was moved slightly for her to view the wound, so S V Anderson’s claim that nobody in Parkland observed the wound because JFK was positioned face-up the entire time, is vacuous. I produced Dr. McClelland’s medical sketch showing the rear exit wound after he claimed that nobody in Dallas observed a wound to the rear of Kennedy’s head, and he was caught like a deer in the headlights. In response, he claimed he’d never denied this, and I had a good laugh. This incident tells me that the “Lone Nut” camp is actively trying to re-write history, by de-legitimizing anything – any fact or witness – that contradicts their “theory” of the crime, such as it is. It is noteworthy that few of the conspiracy deniers have anything convincing to say about the throat wound, and the immediate impression of the Parkland doctors, that is was an ENTRY wound. That fact alone blows their entire theory, if it is true, because it proves at least one frontal shot, hence more than one shooter, hence conspiracy.

Another area where conspiracy deniers are especially weak, and prone to vituperation, is the murky area of inconsistencies between the Parkland doctor’s depictions of the wound(s), and those of the Bethesda “doctors.” If Lifton is correct, and I believe he is, we have Kennedy arriving in a different casket, and in a body bag, whereas at Parkland, he was wrapped in sheets, and placed in a bronze coffin. Two of the orderlies at Bethesda noticed that there was almost no brain tissue remaining, and also stated that the photographs and X-Rays from Bethesda didn’t match what they observed.

IN ANY OTHER CASE, discrepancies of this magnitude would occasion a reopened investigation. Why isn’t that happening here? The only answer that makes any sense to me is that full disclosure of the truth isn’t in the interests of certain powerful interests and individuals. I believe it is more than likely that Jack Ruby knew of some of these, but was prevented from telling us what he knew. Conspiracy debunkers also discredit Ruby, claiming that he was severely incapacitated before his death, and suffered from senility, or some other form of dementia. That’s very convenient – almost as convenient as George DeMohrenschildt’s “suicide,” just before he was scheduled to testify. The same could be said of Sam Giancona, or Johnny Roselli. But why exclude Roger Craig from this list? There are probably a dozen other witnesses, who had “inconvenient” things to say that disappeared, suffered untimely deaths, or were subjected to smear attacks. I believe that these attacks originate from a “damage control” operation, but I can’t prove it. But the consistency of these attacks, as well as the level of vitriol and character-assassination involved, leaves no doubt in my mind that something of the sort is true.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Thomas Kroger

[Steve Duffy]

Thomas, Harold Weisberg has a booked called "Case Open", which critically attacks Posner's work and methods.

"Reclaiming History", is, of course, the LN bible. Bugliosi says a few things about Posner. Read both. Then read the on-line criticism of RH, there are many..the best being CTKA's in depth review.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

First of all, I want to say I have ZERO respect for the lone nutter fantasy. Anyone who believes that in 2011 is pitifully misinformed and often willfully self-ignorant.

Cased Closed by Posner was the "bible" of the lone nutters. I think it came out in 1992. Reclaiming History, by author Village Idiot was published in 2007 and it was immediately tossed in the dustbin. Look all over the internet, especially CTKA, and see how it has been completely eviscerated.

So NOW the bible of the lone nutters, especially statist neocon lone nutters, is a book called "Camelot and the Cultural Revolution: How the Assassination of John F. Kennedy Shattered American Liberalism" by James Piereson. Although this book is primarily a social commentary on the crack up of liberalism in the 1960's, make no mistake this is potent book for the lone nutters among the stone cold ignorant intellectual elite. That is people who are so blinded by their ideology that they simply cannot see the truth.

Folks like Jim DiEugenio and James Douglass will tell you, liberalism did not "crack up" - it was assassinated by the government one by one by one. JFK - MLK -RFK (add in Malcolm X, possibly). That is one bitter, ugly pill that modern day conservatives and the "Establishment" in general simply cannot choke down. It's ugly. But it's true. And they and folks like Chris Matthews MSNBC can't handle the truth.

I have been in contact with the author James Piereson and he strikes me as a "misinformationist" and not a "disinformationist." I sent him a lot of information about the JFK assassination and I was surprised (not really) to find how little he knows about it. Simple things like not knowing of Harry Truman's editorial in the Washington Post on 12/22/63. Or that the Kennedys were on the verge of politically vaporizing Lyndon Johnson; LBJ would have been politically castrated within one week and certainly OFF the 1964 Democratic ticket. Or the October, 1963 article in the NY Times stating that JFK had no control over the CIA and the possibility of a coup existed with them. Basically, the author Piereson is stone cold ignorant about the 1963 Coup d'Etat.

http://www.amazon.com/Camelot-Cultural-Revolution-Assassination-Liberalism/dp/1594031886

So anyhow, grab a copy of this book and see what the smug, non-intellectual *elite* are stuffing in their brains.

[Robert Morrow – researcher into the 1963 Coup d’Etat. I have 200+ books related to the JFK assassination. Google my essay “LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK”]

If you want to get quickly “up to speed” on the JFK assassination, here is what to read:

1) LBJ: Mastermind of JFK’s Assassination by Phillip Nelson

2) JFK and the Unspeakable:Why He Died and Why it Matters by James Douglass

3) Brothers: the Hidden History of the Kennedy Years by David Talbot

4) The Dark Side of Camelot by Seymour Hersh

5) Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty by Russ Baker.

6) Google the essay “LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK” by Robert Morrow.

7) Google “National Security State and the Assassination of JFK” by Andrew Gavin Marshall.”

8) Google “Chip Tatum Pegasus.”

9) Google “Vincent Salandria False Mystery Speech.”

10) Go to YouTube and watch the videos The Men Who Killed Kennedy, episodes 7, 8, and 9 which focus on the role of Lyndon Johnson.

11) On YouTube watch Jesse Ventura’s show on the JFK assassination.

12) Watch the movie JFK director’s cut by Oliver Stone.

13) Also, on You Tube watch “Evidence of Revision.” – 8 hours of fantastic and rare footage relating to the JFK assassination.

14) Google “Murray Rothbard the JFK Flap”

Edited April 30, 2011 by Robert Morrow

[Steve Duffy]

It appears to me, and from speaking with Thomas, that he is trying to look at all angles of the assassination. For that reason, I would suggest doing what I did, if one has the time and inclination. I would read, choosing from some of the lists presented here and elsewhere, everything you can, and in chronological order...to get an idea of the unfolding information that has come to light over the years. You can narrow this down to a select number of books...but reading the WR and the HSCA is essential, I feel. I wouldn't skip Posner, personally, but, when Thomas does read it..it is necessary to compliment it with Weisberg's valuable counter claims. Understanding Gerald Posner himself, is essential to understanding the book and it's reason for being.

This is enlightening as it gives one a much broader sense of the disinformation lengths the MM has and continues to go to.

[Myra Bronstein]

...I won't argue here, or anywhere else, that organized crime did the assassination without help from above - Garrison noted that it would have been impossible for the Mafia to orchestrate the cover-up phrase of the operation. It didn't have personnel in key positions, nor did it control the flow of information. McGeorge Bundy did that, from the White House Situation Room.

...

Thank you for giving McGeorge Bundy the recognition he so deserves.

On edit: I think he also played a major role during the Bay of Pigs set up, insuring miscommunication.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Myra Bronstein

[Thomas Kroger]

...I won't argue here, or anywhere else, that organized crime did the assassination without help from above - Garrison noted that it would have been impossible for the Mafia to orchestrate the cover-up phrase of the operation. It didn't have personnel in key positions, nor did it control the flow of information. McGeorge Bundy did that, from the White House Situation Room.

...

Thank you for giving McGeorge Bundy the recognition he so deserves.

On edit: I think he also played a major role during the Bay of Pigs set up, insuring miscommunication.

[Thomas Kroger]

>>>Thank you for giving McGeorge Bundy the recognition he so deserves. Myra Bronstein<<<

You're quite welcome. I think particular thanks should be extended to LBJ, for hoodwinking Warren to lend his name and prestige to the coverup phase of the operation - e.g. by convincing him of the geopolitical necessity of a "lone-nut" theory of the assassination. Without such a conclusion, Earl Warren was convinced that a nuclear holocaust was inevitable. So he acted in "good faith," but the Hoover-directed FBI did the "investigation," which presumed Oswald's guilt from the outset.

I've never heard of ANY criminal investigation proceeding in such a manner. In a word, its chief defect was its lack of radicalism. It naively assumed that things were only as they appeared, and looked no further. I am unconvinced that Lee Harvey Oswald fired any shots, because only 90 seconds later, he was observed in the lunch room on the second floor, calmly sipping a Coke. No signs of stress. None of his behavior at the DPD strikes me as that of a guilty man. He is calm, collected, and factual, as he asks for legal representation to come forward.

It is revealing that in the post from Shaboo2 which I examined above, she makes a sleight-of-hand from "possible to probable, then undeniable." These are her exact words, to describe Magic Bullet, an ad hoc "theory," composed not to explain, but to exclude the possibility of other shooters. This is disingenuous, intellectually dishonest, and reprehensible. It is infuriating to read such words, and then be subjected to her ridicule and phoney righteousness. It has so disgusted me, that I am done with Amazon, so far as posting is concerned. I have accomplished far more research in the last week, than was ever possible, while I was busy locking horns with her and/or S V Anderson.

Seldom has any case appeared with more suspicious surrounding circumstances than the JFK assassination. If the perpetrators were disenchanted "Cold Warriors," they undoubtedly believed in the rectitude of their cause, and feared that disclosure of the truth would entail a Constitutional crisis and cataclysmic breakdown at the worst possible time - at the height of the Cold War. That couldn't be permitted, and I believe it was their original motivation. But their successors became accomplices after the fact, and the chain of guilt is ongoing. That is why the coverup is ongoing.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Thomas Kroger

[Guest Tom Scully]

(quote name='Thomas Kroger' date='02 May 2011 - 04:57 AM' timestamp='1304308672' post='224406')

>>>Thank you for giving McGeorge Bundy the recognition he so deserves. Myra Bronstein<<<

You're quite welcome. I think particular thanks should be extended to LBJ, for hoodwinking Warren to lend his name and prestige to the coverup phase of the operation - e.g. by convincing him of the geopolitical necessity of a "lone-nut" theory of the assassination. Without such a conclusion, Earl Warren was convinced that a nuclear holocaust was inevitable. So he acted in "good faith," but the Hoover-directed FBI did the "investigation," which presumed Oswald's guilt from the outset.....

(/quote)

You are of an opinion that Earl Warren acted in "good faith"? When? While he was asleep each night?

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=Donald+Gibson+two+of+jenner%27s+references

The Kennedy assassination cover-up‎ - Page 96

Donald Gibson - History - 2000 - 306 pages+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Jack Ruby

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...Allegations of organized crime links...

Within four hours of Ruby's arrest on November 24, 1963, a telegram sent from La Jolla, CA, was received at the Dallas city jail in support of Jack Ruby, under the names of Hal and Pauline Collins.[11] That telegram supports the Warren Commission exhibit (CE 1510), which names Hal Collins, Jr.[12][13] as a character reference listed by Jack Ruby on a Texas liquor license application.[14] In 1957, Hal Collin's sister, Mary Ann Collins,[12][15] had married Robert L. Clark,[16][17] the brother of former U.S. Attorney General and the then sitting U.S. Supreme Court Justice, Tom C. Clark. Robert L. Clark was the former Dallas law partner of Maury Hughes.[18][19][20] Tom C. Clark advised newspaper columnist Drew Pearson in 1946 that the FBI had verified the claims[21][22] of James M. Ragen that Henry Crown and the Hilton Hotel chain controlled organized crime in Chicago.[23][24][25][26][27][28][29] Tom C. Clark selected Henry Crown's son, John as one of his two Supreme Court law clerks for the 1956 term,[30] and Tom Clark provided one of two recommendations to the Warren Commission to appoint Henry Crown's attorney, Albert E. Jenner, Jr.[31] as a senior assistant investigative counsel responsible for determining whether either Oswald or Ruby acted alone or conspired with others.[32]

http://www.google.com/search?q=knowland+warren&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a#q=ken+ziffren+earl+warren&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=ar:1&sa=X&ei=NT--Tfe8IfCD0QHht9zhBQ&ved=0CA8QpwUoBQ&fp=8d2e18986f614a20

SON OF LAW FIRM'S SENIOR PARTNER WED

‎

Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - May 26, 1970

Ziffren a graduate of Northwestern University and UCLA law school is a member of ... a law clerk to f o r m e r Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren in 1965.

http://www.archive.org/stream/onewomansroleind02shirrich/onewomansroleind02shirrich_djvu.txt

...One of the things that was embarrassing and got national

coverage was the Reader's Digest article of July, 1960. It

was written by Lester Velie and is called, "Paul Ziffren, The

Democrats' Man of Mystery." (The author sets forth a very

detailed account of "Ziffren 's connections with the underworld

and gambling figures of the period,") ...

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/448644862.html?dids=448644862:448644862&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Jul+11%2C+1952&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Warren%27s+Name+Presented+by+Sen.+Knowland&pqatl=google

Jul 11, 1952

Sen. Knowland offered Gov. Warren of California to the Republican convention tonight as a Presidential candidate who could unite the party and give the country an administration "of honor and purpose in both do-...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=judge+john+crown+jenner+1959+partner&btnG=Search&hl=en&ned=us&um=1&scoring=a

Ex-farmer, judge Crown remembered as 'wise, fair'

- Daily Herald - NewsBank - Mar 8, 1997

Crown clerked for US Supreme Court Justice Tom Clark from 1956 to 1959 and ... law at the Chicago firm of Jenner and Block, where he became a partner. ...

John J. Crown, judge, philanthropist

- Chicago Sun-Times - NewsBank - Mar 6, 1997

John J. Crown, 67, a former Cook County Circuit Court judge and youngest son of Henry Crown... In 1959, he joined the law firm of Jenner & Block. ...

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&safe=off&q=evica%20jenner%20conflict&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp

And We are All Mortal: New Evidence and Analysis in the John F. Kennedy ...‎ - Page 388

by George Michael Evica - 1978 - 465 pages

The Jenner-Henry Crown connection alone should have suggested conflict of

interests to those responsible for selecting the Warren , Commission's counsel, ......

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=led+to+very+high+places&btnG=Search+Books#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&source=hp&q=%22led+to+very+high+places%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22led+to+very+high+places%22&gs_rfai=&psj=1&fp=9bef8cda26d1a6ec

Diaries, 1949-1959: Volume 1

Drew Pearson, Tyler Abell - 1974 - 592 pages - Snippet view

Tom Clark told me afterward that it led to very high places. J. Edgar Hoover intimated the same thing. He said the people Ragen pointed to had now reformed. I learned later that it pointed to the Hilton hotel chain, Henry Crown, ...

http://www.google.com/search?q=knowland+warren&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a#q=songbird+household+names&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1963,cd_max:1963&sa=X&ei=zzu-TbL0GaTo0QGCxKzUBQ&ved=0CBMQpwUoCQ&fp=8d2e18986f614a20

Earlier Underworld Songbird Murdered; Fingers High-ups .

‎

The Bulletin - Oct 28, 1963

By Drew Pearson

Some of tho rulers of the underworld had become supposedly respect ed businessmen and politicians whose 'names were household words in Chicago. . Yet they still controlled yhe mob....

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZLvASZtQpC4J:www.lib.niu.edu/1976/ii761206.html+%22attorney+for+Lester+Crown+and+an+architect+of+the+package%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Corruption in the legislature: Cement Bribery Trial -

Albert E. Jenner, Jr., attorney for Lester Crown and an architect of the package immunity deal for Crown and company, also former minority counsel in the ...

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0916F8385D0C758DDDAF0894DD484D81

New York Times - Jun 16, 1985 LESTER CROWN BLAMES THE SYSTEM. By WAYNE BIDDLE (NYT); Financial Desk. June 16, 1985, Sunday. Late City Final Edition,

Albert E. Jenner Jr., who was Republican counsel during the Watergate hearings and has long been a member of the General Dynamics board, said: ''Lester is a splendid person. He's very careful not to have the board believe he is the major domo of this corporation,'' but Mr. Jenner conceded that Mr. Crown was not just one among equals...."

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50717F83E590C748CDDAB0994DE484D81

THE ORDEAL OF LESTER CROWN - Free Preview - The New York Times

New York Times - Dec 7, 1986

...The family turned to Albert E. Jenner Jr., a lawyer and longtime friend who is on the board of General Dynamics. ''Whenever the kids got into trouble,'' Jenner says, ''they never bothered the old man. They talked to me, and I got them out of trouble.'' In return for his cooperation with the grand jury, Lester Crown was granted immunity from prosecution....

http://www.google.com/#q=ziffren+earl+wARREN&hl=en&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&ei=XrahTavcHIHpgAfw7JTaBQ&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=6f2b20f238d25403

Who's Greatest American? World Leader? LA Votes

‎

Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - Jan 17, 1960

And Ziffren called Chief Justice Earl Warren thegreatest American. Warren Gets Nod. And with t his tributeChief Justice Warren has devoted himself to jus..

Kenneth Ziffren is reviewed by Mike Oberhaus. ... Ziffren clerked for U.S. Chief Justice Earl Warren before joining his father's firm for twelve years. ...

http://littlebiggy.org/viewSubject/8427

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&ds=n&sugexp=gsqvh&pq=hayward%20hotel%20wife%20fred%20evans&xhr=t&q=ziffren+hayward+hotel+wife+fred+evans&cp=8&pf=p&sclient=psy&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=ziffren+hayward+hotel+wife+fred+evans&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=6f2b20f238d25403

Knowland Hits Ziffren Link to Gang Figures

‎

Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - Oct 17, 1958

Knowland attacked Ziffren as the chief supporter of his opponent, Atty, Gen. ... er partner with Ziffren in the Hayward Hotel, was the wife of Fred Evans.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&ds=bo&sugexp=gsqvh&pq=knowland%20hayward%20fred%20evans&xhr=t&q=hayward+hotel+fred+evans&cp=0&pf=p&sclient=psy&tbm=bks&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=hayward+hotel+fred+evans&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=d8adc9e2b250eaf&bs=1

Third interim report pursuant to S. Res. 202: 81st Congress, a ...

United States. Congress. Senate. Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce - 1951 - 188 pages - Snippet view

In Los Angeles, Fred Evans, a former Capone associate has an interest in the Hayward Hotel. Among the leading hoodlums in the restaurant, night club, bar, and tavern businesses, are Frank Costello, Phil Kastel, Charles Fischetti, ..

.....

http://books.google.com/books?q=crown+QUIT...nG=Search+Books

The Empire State Building: The Making of a Landmark‎ - Page 347

by John Tauranac - Travel - 1995 - 384 pages

Escorted by Colonel Crown and his wife, the couple was introduced to the Empire

... and, quite inexplicably, to Miss Virginia Warren, daughter of Chief ...

"...The building got it's money's worth in free publicity. The

queen said the view was "the most beautiful thing" she had ever

seen. She and Prince Philip were then guests at a reception in

the executive lounge. Escorted by Colonel (Henry) Crown and

his wife, the couple was introduced to the Empire State Building

directors and their wives, and QUITE INEXPLICABLY, to MISS VIRGINIA WARREN,

daughter of Chief Justice Earl Warren..."

For years before her 1960 marriage to VP in charge of ABC News and TV quiz show, "What's My line" host, John C. Daly,

who was one of the last people to see show panelist Dorothy Kilgallen alive, Virginia Warren could be seen frequently on the arm of Henry Crown's principle business partner and friend, Conrad N. Hilton, also a friend of her father, Earl Warren:

"To John Daly, 51, imperturbable moderator of CBS's What's My Line?, and Virginia Warren Daly, 37,

eldest daughter of Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl ..."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,834752,00.html

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=C...nG=Search+Books

The silver spade: the Conrad Hilton story‎ - Page xx

by Whitney Bolton - 1954 - 230 pages

"... he attended the opening of the Supreme Court, escorting Virginia Warren, daughter of the Chief Justice Earl Warren. Hilton is an old friend of Warren...."

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=C...nG=Search+Books

Saturday Review‎

by Bernard Augustine De Voto - American literature - 1958

Page 34

Conrad Hilton came in with Virginia Warren, daughter of the Chief Justice of the

United States, on his arm. And later, limbo dancers from Trinidad showed ...

No preview available - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Pleasure Island: Tourism and Temptation in Cuba‎ - Page 191

by Rosalie Schwartz - History - 1997 - 247 pages

Conrad Hilton brought his own bodyguard, as did Virginia Warren, daughter of the

US chief justice. A trio of uniformed guards accompanied the Hollywood ...

http://search2.ancestry.com/gg-pg.ashx?db=...p;pid=501275653

January 23, 1956

Columnist Earl Wilson

Dallas-

I whizzed over here with Greer Garson, Ann Miller, Virginia Warren, and other beautiful

dolls to catch the opening of the Statler Hilton and heard a crazy mixed-up story.....

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=hil...r=&ie=UTF-8

WALDORF MARKS 25 YEARS AT SITE; Dances, Menus From Past and Noted...

- New York Times - Sep 29, 1956

Guests of Mr. Hilton were Mr.and Mrs. Edward L. Buckley,Mr. and Mrs. Dean Carpenterand Miss Virginia Warren. At the table of Mr. and Mrs.Joseph P. Binns ...

AIRLINER TURNS BACK; Hilton Party on Plane Included Mrs. Warren and...

- New York Times - Nov 29, 1958

Hilton. The plane s passengers included Mrs. Earl Warren, I wife of the Chief Justice of the IUnited States, their.daug]ter, !Virginia, and a number of ...

............

http://books.google.com/books?q=crown%20ch...sa=N&tab=np

The Defender: The Story of General Dynamics‎ - Page 228

by Roger Franklin - Technology & Engineering - 1986 - 385 pages

Crown rapidly demolished the faint hope that he would stay close to Chicago and

... He brought in several Chicago cronies, including one, Patrick H. Hoy, ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=QJ-WirJls...rch_s&cad=0

Deep Politics and the Death of JFK‎ - Page 179

by Peter Dale Scott - History - 1996

"....Blakey chose to link Rosselli to Trafficante, by citing his "management role" in

the Havana Sans Souci casino. More pertinent was probably the fact that the Sans Scouci was operated, at this time, by Dave Yaras and Lenny Patrick, the suspected killers of James Ragen (9 AH 948). Also at this time, Rosselli's most constant companion was "Major" Charkes "Babe" Baron, a suspected murderer who was also a brigadier-general in the Illinois National Guard. Baron was a protege of Chicago Democratic machine leader Jake Arvey, as were Yaras and Patrick; and an even closer friend of Patrick Hoy, the Henry Crown employee at General Dynamics who arranged for Sidney Korshak to work for Hilton Hotels. Hoy was also the general manager of the Sherman Hotel in Chicago, a hangout frequented ny Ruby and Jones in 1947 (22 WH 366; 24 WH 518 Chicago crime commission, report, 1963)"....

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=sidney+korshak+arvey+harry+karl&btnG=Search&hl=en&ned=us&um=1&scoring=a

A FRIEND OF A FRIEND OF A FRIEND

- Chicago Tribune - - Aug 20, 1952

... in honor of J. N. Arvey, Democratic boss of Illinois and Atty. and Mrs. Sidney Korshak. The hosts were Harry Karl, a chain shoe merchant, and his wife,

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=mr.+darling+dorfman+jacobs&btnG=Search&um=1&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a

Bares Lavish Parties for Union Bosses Here

Chicago Tribune - - Nov 24, 1953

James R. Hoffa, Frank Darling, Bert Brennan, Dave Previant, Phil Goodman, ... Mr . and Mrs. Paul Dorfman, Mr. and Mrs. Allen Dorfman, Joseph Jacobs, ...

AFL Union Chiefs Son Balks at $101,000 Payoff Quiz

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 24, 1953

M. Frank Darling is the head of local 1031 of the AFL Elec- trical Workers ... However, Mrs. Rose Dorfman, also sought on a , was ill and would not appear. ..

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbs=bks:1&q=darlng+accompanied+by+counsel%2C+AE+Jenner+and+JA+Sprawl%2C+Chicago%2C+111+%2C+222+Dorfman%2C+Allen%2C+Chicago%2C+111.%2C+accompanied+by+counsel%2C+Stanford+Clinton%2C+%22&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=darlng+accompanied+by+counsel%2C+AE+Jenner+and+JA+Sprawl%2C+Chicago%2C+111+%2C+222+Dorfman%2C+Allen%2C+Chicago%2C+111.%2C+accompanied+by+counsel%2C+Stanford+Clinton%2C+%22&pbx=1&fp=ae7ff3dec986e07e

Hearings

Congress. House. Committee on Education - 1953 -

... Mich 122 Darling, M. Frank, Chicago, 111., accompanied by counsel, AE Jenner and JA Sprawl, Chicago, 111 , 222 Dorfman, Allen, Chicago, 111., accompanied by counsel, Stanford Clinton, Chicago, 111 71 Dorfman, Paul,

http://njlegallib.rutgers.edu/legallib/njar/v10/p0465.pdf

In The Matter of The Application for Playboy-Elsinore Associates

For a Casino License

Decided: April 7, 1982

.....Page 4

B. Areas of Concern Identified By The Division

In that portion of its opening statement dealing with the Elsinor entities, the Division voiced concern over a series of financial transactions between the Teamsters Central States, Southeast, and Southwest Areas Pension Fund ("Pension Fund")....

....Owing to the nature of the reservations expressed by the Division in its summation, it is necessary to digress at this point in order to amplify the Clinton-Pritzker relationship. After graduating from law school, Clinton accepted a position in June 1931 as an associate with the law firm of Prizker and Pritzker. Thereupon he embarked upon a legal career that spanned nearly four decades. When the Pritzker abandoned the traditional practice of law in 1936. they gave Clinton all of their active fies and permitted him to continue to use the Pritzker offices and support services.

Thereafter, Clinton maintained his own clientele, but he continued to do legal work for the Pritzker family and occasionally was invited to invest in Pritzker business ventures....

Stanford Clinton again withdrew as counsel for the PENSION FUND and the firm of Thompson, Raymond, Mayer, Jenner and Bloomstein was retained in order to render legal advice to the Trustees of the Fund and to execute the appropriate legal documents. ....

....After difficult negotiations, and Trustees of the PENSION FUND approved a revised proposal....The loan was executed on June 24, 1960.

The Division in its summation noted some compliamentary language used by James R. Hoffa in referring to the Pritzker family at a Board of Trustees meeting of the PENSION FUND. This reference was to the fiscal responsibility of the Pritzkers....

Edited May 2, 2011 by Tom Scully

[Richard Hocking]

... I think particular thanks should be extended to LBJ, for hoodwinking Warren to lend his name and prestige to the coverup phase of the operation - e.g. by convincing him of the geopolitical necessity of a "lone-nut" theory of the assassination. Without such a conclusion, Earl Warren was convinced that a nuclear holocaust was inevitable. So he acted in "good faith," but the Hoover-directed FBI did the "investigation," which presumed Oswald's guilt from the outset.

...

True, LBJ and the FBI tried to dupe and manipulate Earl Warren. But It must also be remembered that Warren witnessed enough witness testimony during the hearings that serious questions should have formed in his mind regarding the foregone Conclusion that Lone Nut Oswald did it all by himself, or alternately that Cuba/Castro was involved in the assassination.

In addition to the information furnished by Tom Scully (posted above this post), I would include a couple other incidents that are very revealing concering Warren's performance on the commission:

1. While interviewing Jack Ruby, Ruby says he cannot talk in Dallas and offers to tell Warren the whole story if Warren will extradite him and take him to Washington. The last known primary player, still alive, offers to spill his guts and tell the whole story if Warren will move him to a safe location. Amazingly, Warren turns down the request.

2. HSCA Special Investigator Gaeton Fonzi offers another revealing incident:

"... There is a brief glimpse, an illustration of the level at which that deceit was carried out, in an incident that occurred during the Warren Commission's investigation. Commission chairman Earl Warren himself, with then Representative Gerald Ford at his side, was interviewing a barman, Curtis LaVerne Crafard. Crafard had worked at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club before he was seized by FBI men as he was hightailing it out of town the day after the assassination, having told someone, "They are not going to pin this on me!"In the interview, Warren asks Craford what he did before he was a bartender.

"I was a Master sniper in the Marine Corps," Craford answered.*

The next question that Warren immediately asked was: "What kind of entertainment did they have at the club?"

Fonzi Quote at jfklancer