German Elections

[John Simkin]

The result is different from what was expected. I cannot see how the CDU can form a government. Any chance of the SPD joining forces with the Greens and Left Party?

CDU/CSU: 35.2% (225 seats)

SPD: 34.3% (222)

Free Democrats: 9.8% (61)

Left Party: 8.7% (54)

Greens: 8.1% (51)

[Ed Waller]

The result is different from what was expected. I cannot see how the CDU can form a government. Any chance of the SPD joining forces with the Greens and Left Party?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's the only one that offers a sense of cohesion...

On a slight side-track, I heard TV 'pundits' discussing the impasse, and noting it had only happened once before in Germany, during the 1960s. It made me wonder what kind of history that person had studied

Ed

[Gregory Carlin]

The result is different from what was expected. I cannot see how the CDU can form a government. Any chance of the SPD joining forces with the Greens and Left Party?

CDU/CSU: 35.2% (225 seats)

SPD: 34.3% (222)

Free Democrats: 9.8% (61)

Left Party: 8.7% (54)

Greens: 8.1% (51)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A new election perhaps instead.

The Greens are supported by Ukrainian 'interests' and the sooner the brothel-keeping elements are out of political influence the better.

Added later in the interests of cigars & clarity

The Green Party in Germany are very sympathetic to brothel-keepers & pimps.

An estimated 400,000 prostitutes work in Germany. Germany's lax visa rule was also applied to countries such as Albania and Kosovo.

Germany has acute unemployment & handing out a million visas to Ukrainians did not make any sense within the context of mass unemployment.

Edited September 22, 2005 by Gregory Carlin

[John Simkin]

The Greens are supported by Ukrainian 'interests' and the sooner the brothel-keeping elements are out of political influence the better.

What is this supposed to mean. As Sigmund Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

[Mike Tribe]

The problem with an SDP/Green/Left coalition would appear to be that the Left specifically split from the SDP/Green government over the issue of Schroeder's social "reforms" which, in fact, represented an attempt to dismantle the welfare state. It's difficult to see how they would agree to enter a coalition with the SDP unless Schroeder agrees to abandon his "reforms", which, he insists, he will not do...

I fear that a "Grand Alliance" between the SDP and the CDU is much more likely... They both want to dismantle the welfare state and make the labor market more "flexible" (ie remove all legal protection against instant dismissal for workers).

[John Simkin]

The problem with an SDP/Green/Left coalition would appear to be that the Left specifically split from the SDP/Green government over the issue of Schroeder's social "reforms" which, in fact, represented an attempt to dismantle the welfare state. It's difficult to see how they would agree to enter a coalition with the SDP unless Schroeder agrees to abandon his "reforms", which, he insists, he will not do...

I fear that a "Grand Alliance" between the SDP and the CDU is much more likely... They both want to dismantle the welfare state and make the labor market more "flexible" (ie remove all legal protection against instant dismissal for workers).

True. However, the majority of the German electorate are opposed to this policy. The problem was that not enough people voted for the Green Party and the Left Party. I suspect that if a Grand Alliance is formed large numbers will take to the streets to stop these reforms taking place. The same goes for France who have been struggling with the same problems as Germany over the last few years. It seems to me that capitalism is in crisis. In cannot grow unless it reduces the rights of the workforce. Rupert Murdoch, Conrad Black (soon to go to prison) and Margaret Thatcher (also should be sent to prison for her corrupt business dealings with son Mark) managed to persuade the British to accept these reforms. The problem for capitalism is that the people in France and Germany saw it happen and are not willing to follow this path.

[Mike Tribe]

I think I would agree with John that, in the long run, capitalism could be appraoching some sort of crisis. The Marxist prediction that capitalism must "inevitably" fail because of its "internal contradictions" proved to be erroneous since social democratic parties in Europe British Labour Party and the German Social Democratic Party appeared to demonstrate that the capitalist system could be peacefully persuaded to share some of its wealth creating power with the working class. The result was a process of social legislation beginning in England with the 1906 Liberal government which created a "cradle to grave" welfare state throughout most of Europe (and much of the former British Empire) which gave workers a stake in the success of the capitalist system.

The dismantling of this system which began, as John said, with Thatcher, could easily -- as I said, in the long run -- erode the workers' belief that they have anything to gain from the system. The sort of neo-liberalism -- in purely economic terms -- Thatcher characterized even undermined the paternalistic capitalism in which employers felt a long-term commitment to its workforce (I'm thinking here of the sort of job-for-life system that used to prevail in Japan) so that any sort of job security is a thing of the past for most workers.

Still, I'm afraid any sort of change will be far in the future. I'd like to believe that "people power" could resist the dismantling of the welfare state in Germany and France as it signally failed to do in Britain, but I'm afraid I'm not nearly as optimistic in this respect as John...

[Gregory Carlin]

The Greens are supported by Ukrainian 'interests' and the sooner the brothel-keeping elements are out of political influence the better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is this supposed to mean. As Sigmund Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once Germany worked like a clock & then the Green Party arrived. Ukrainian & e-bloc crime interests have attached themselves to politics.

Joschka Fischer & colleagues are connected with the issuing of visas to Ukranian organized crime figures for the slave trade.

German consulates in Ukraine issued thousands of visas to criminals, members of people-trafficking gangs and sex slavery syndicates.

Around a million visas have been issued to Ukrainians in recent years and it has had an impact on the quality of life of ordinary Germans.

Work Permits UK in Sheffield & Home Office also allowed Ukrainian racketeers to infiltrate the British system in relation to the Sector Based Scheme.

Ukrainians have to pay racketeers to get onto the Home Office SBS scheme. The people extorting cash from victims ply their trade via shell agencies.

Edited September 22, 2005 by Gregory Carlin

[UlrikeSchuhFricke]

I really do not know which thread to pick up.

What really infuriates me are the comments about the Greens. I suppose the postings are based on either complete ignorance or prejudice. Mistakes have been made in the Ukraine and maybe in other places and their is a parliamentary committee lokking into that; by the way the origins of the mistakes made go back to the early 1990's when Helmut Kohl was Bundeskanzler.

I think that there definitely will be no coalition including the left party and even though quite a large section of the German people demonstrated against the reforms initiated by the government (the number taking to the streets shortly after Hartz IV was implemented dwindeled rapidly) by an even larger number knows that our welfare state has to be modernized wif we want it to survive. This can only be done by reducing state expenditure, by reforming our tax system and lowering the taxes, by reforming our pension system. The result will be that the individual citizen will have to take care of him-/herself more when it comes to health care, preparing for retirement and loss of job. For many who grew up in an over-caring and over-protecting nanny state this is difficult to understand and accept. One should not forget that despite the reforms and despite the high number of unemployed we have a very high living standard and even the unemployed are still well cared for.

To give you one example: I personally do not think that asking someone who is unemployed to leave his/her hometown and work somewhere else is asking too much - but many of the unemployed (not all) are not willing to move to another place in Germany to get a job.

On a slight side-track, I heard TV 'pundits' discussing the impasse, and noting it had only happened once before in Germany, during the 1960s. It made me wonder what kind of history that person had studied

I do not know what that means because post-war Germany only had one grand coalition from 1966 till 1969. Due to the experiences made then many feel highly uncomfortable with the idea of a grand coalition. As all other options (traffic light coalition or Jamaican coalition) seem to be impossible or not wanted by the FDP and/or the Greens three things are possible:

1. a grand coalition

2. new election if the neither candidate is elected by the new Bundestag

3. a minority red-green government tolerated and supported by the left.

[Gregory Carlin]

I really do not know which thread to pick up.

What really infuriates me are the comments about the Greens. I suppose the postings are based on either complete ignorance or prejudice. Mistakes have been made in the Ukraine and maybe in other places and their is a parliamentary committee lokking into that; by the way the origins of the mistakes made go back to the early 1990's when Helmut Kohl was Bundeskanzler.

I think that there definitely will be no coalition including the left party and even though quite a large section of the German people demonstrated against the reforms initiated by the government (the number taking to the streets shortly after Hartz IV was implemented dwindeled rapidly) by an even larger number knows that our welfare state has to be modernized wif we want it to survive. This can only be done by reducing state expenditure, by reforming our tax system and lowering the taxes, by reforming our pension system. The result will be that the individual citizen will have to take care of him-/herself more when it comes to health care, preparing for retirement and loss of job. For many who grew up in an over-caring and over-protecting nanny state this is difficult to understand and accept. One should not forget that despite the reforms and despite the high number of unemployed we have a very high living standard and even the unemployed are still well cared for.

To give you one example: I personally do not think that asking someone who is unemployed to leave his/her hometown and work somewhere else is asking too much - but many of the unemployed (not all) are not willing to move to another place in Germany to get a job.

On a slight side-track, I heard TV 'pundits' discussing the impasse, and noting it had only happened once before in Germany, during the 1960s. It made me wonder what kind of history that person had studied

I do not know what that means because post-war Germany only had one grand coalition from 1966 till 1969. Due to the experiences made then many feel highly uncomfortable with the idea of a grand coalition. As all other options (traffic light coalition or Jamaican coalition) seem to be impossible or not wanted by the FDP and/or the Greens three things are possible:

1. a grand coalition

2. new election if the neither candidate is elected by the new Bundestag

3. a minority red-green government tolerated and supported by the left.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would say prejudice is is a factor. The German govt. has not been of much assistance to us in relation to the Czech Republic.

The Green Party are the dyed in the wool enemies of the anti-slavery movement, both constituencies have a settled aversion to the other.

The Green Party always side with the pimps, they do it in Germany, they do it in New Zealand, they ubiquitously promote prostitution.

My job is to investigate Ukrainian slavery networks, however I do defer to your other views on Germany's political prospects.

Respectfully Submitted

Gregory

Edited September 23, 2005 by Gregory Carlin

[John Simkin]

I think that there definitely will be no coalition including the left party and even though quite a large section of the German people demonstrated against the reforms initiated by the government (the number taking to the streets shortly after Hartz IV was implemented dwindeled rapidly) by an even larger number knows that our welfare state has to be modernized wif we want it to survive. This can only be done by reducing state expenditure, by reforming our tax system and lowering the taxes, by reforming our pension system. The result will be that the individual citizen will have to take care of him-/herself more when it comes to health care, preparing for retirement and loss of job. For many who grew up in an over-caring and over-protecting nanny state this is difficult to understand and accept. One should not forget that despite the reforms and despite the high number of unemployed we have a very high living standard and even the unemployed are still well cared for.

The German people are understandably opposed to the idea that the best way of reforming the Welfare State is by reducing taxes. This is what Thatcher did in the UK and we are still suffering the consequences.

It is clear that if European countries are going to maintain their welfare states they will need to increase revenues. The real issue concerns the way this money is raised. Thatcher, Major and Blair have favoured regressive taxes. The original founders of the Welfare State favoured progressive taxation. They were right and all governments in Europe need to return to that model.