Pat Speer

David Von Pein is banned from this forum, Pamela, and therefore could not post the information here. I asked Gary for permission to post his thoughts as relayed to Mr Von Pein. I thought everyone, especially alterationists, would be interested in reading and considering the information furbished by him. The forum used to enforce a rule that NO BANNED MEMBER can use a surrogate to post messages. What happened to that rule? Duane Daman was banished by Burton, and I was admonished for posting something from Duane. Why doe the same not apply to VonPain? Jack Jack, it is my understanding that rule still applies. If von Pain was banned here, I will delete all of his forwarded messages, in line with our fearless leader Burton. I was unaware he was ever here as a member. It was before my joining, perhaps. Just demonstrate it to be so, and anyone's posts of his messages, no matter who posted them, will be deleted....as per Burton. David Von Pein has never been a member of this Forum. If I remember rightly, members have claimed that he was using a false name on the Forum. That is why we brought in the photograph as avatar rule. At the time, it was a common complaint from our more paranoid members that posters were not who they said they were. It also should be made clear that members are not banned but put on moderation. Evan never banned Duane Daman. Moderators do not have that power. Nor do they have the power to delete messages. What they can do is to make them invisible so that a decision can be made by Andy or myself. John, I've skirmished with Von Pein on several different forums, and am almost positive he was a member of this forum for a few days. As I recall, he wouldn't provide a photo, and was given the heave-ho.

That description is David Lifton's, Doug Horne's is different. Again, because of the lack of index I can't immediately locate the page. Doug Horne's argument is that the moving of the body took place immediately the casket was o n board and before Jackie boarded the plane. That is where I have a problem. I understood that Jackie entered the plane immediately after the casket was loaded. I can't see where there was time to remove the body. James. Thank you, James, for digging through Horne's opus and helping us find the problems the LN crowd will no doubt delight in hanging round our collective heads. I only have books I and II, and haven't found the time to read them in the detail required. But, in looking through number 2, I see that Horne takes the statements of Joe O'Donnell seriously, and uses them to prop up his theory that Robert Knudsen took autopsy photos. I find this incredibly disappointing. A few years back, when O'Donnell died, I created threads on all the forums linking to a New York Times article on O'Donnell. It turned out he had a mental disorder at the time he was interviewed and was a pathological xxxx, selling and autographing prints of photographs he in fact had never taken. (This all came out when his obituary made claims other photographers knew to be untrue.) Here are two other articles on the O'Donnell photography scandal. The second one notes that there is no evidence O'Donnell EVER worked as a White House Photographer. If so, this is a big black eye for the ARRB, as Gunn and Horne should have checked O'Donnell's bona fides and not just taken him at his word. O'Donnell article Another O'Donnell article Anyhow, back in 2007, I posted the article on O'Donnell on all the forums for the precise purpose of warning people like Horne away from using O'Donnell in their books. (And no, these articles were not disinformation. None of the initial articles on O'Donnell even mentioned O'Donnell's ARRB testimony--although the second one above mentions it in passing... Apparently, none of the writers of these articles knew the full extent of O'Donnell's mischief.) Anyhow, the LNs drool over this kind of stuff. Pretty embarrassing.

Nobody can be agnostic over Horne's documented discovery that the "Z film" in Dallas was SLIT TO 2 8MM STRIPS but at Hawkeyeworks, it had been magically transformed back to an UNSLIT 16MM. This is documented proof of alteration. Jack I have volumes I and II, but not IV. When you say "documented" proof, Jack, are you saying Horne found documents proving the film went to "Hawkeye works"? I thought "Hawkeye works" was something one man said someone else said in an interview 30 years after the fact. If there are government documents proving the film went to Hawkeye works, however, that undoubtedly deserves our attention.

I hope you're joking, Bill. But it's getting to be that it's hard tell around here.

Doug, did you tape this discussion? Do you have notes? I'm interested in anything Day had to say. If you have anything which would be of help, it would be greatly appreciated. Pat

If you watch the video at the link previously provided, you will hear that he doesn't say the words "grassy mall" or "grassy knoll". He doesn't say "grassy" at all. He says, quite clearly, "mall". As pointed out by Dean, this becomes even more clear when you hear his pronunciation of "knoll" during his mock trial testimony.

Not true, Jack. Here is the interview. At 1:43 he says MALL. Newman interview on WFAA And here is his testimony in the mock trial, where he makes perfectly clear that he thought the shots came from the back of the arcade, by the MALL. Newman and the bug Listen to what Newman says at 1:17 in the Youtube clip you posted Pat of Newman in "On Trial Lee Harvey Oswald" He says in a Texas drawl "Grassy Knoll" Good point, Dean. And he says knoll as if it rhymes with bowl and not knoll as if it rhymes with mall. Which brings me back to my original question. Since 1) Newman refused to say a shot came from the fence, from where Jack and other alterationists assume the shots were fired, and 2) consistently described the head wounds in a manner consistent with the autopsy photos and Zapruder film, and inconsistent with the alterationist position there was but a small entrance wound near the temple and a large blow out on the back of the head, and 3) was the first one to describe the impact of the shots on television, thereby setting people up to believe the head wounds in the Zapruder film when finally presented to the public, shouldn't the alterationist crowd assume that, he, too, was part of the conspiracy? Or does common sense prevail in this insistence? I mean, Newman never said he saw an impact on the back of Kennedy's head, which weakens the official position a bullet hit JFK on the back of his head at frame 313. And he also said he thought the shots came from somewhere other than the TSBD. This makes him, in the big picture, a conspiracy witness. But so is Zapruder. Zapruder said he wasn't sure if the last shot was one or two--which supports the conclusion of most nearby witnesses there were two bam-bam. He also said he thought the shots came from behind. He also, as Newman before him, went on television and described a wound on the front of Kennedy's head, but no impact on the back of his head. This makes him, in the big picture, a conspiracy witness, even if he later embraced the "official" story. So why would a member of a conspiracy say things suggesting there was a conspiracy? To throw people off his trail? Who, exactly, suspected Zapruder of any wrongdoing in the aftermath of the assassination? Newman was not part of the conspiracy, and neither was Zapruder.

Nice animation SHOWING THE OCCUPANTS OF THE CAR BEING THROWN FORWARD AS THE BRAKES ARE APPLIED. But everyone is too occupied looking at the fake head wound. Check it out. Jack Jack would you agree with me that the occupants of the limo are thrown forward from the brakes being hit after the head shot and not before as Tink claims? The attached clip shows everyone being thrown forward. I have forgotten other research on this, but I think John Costella covers it. Note Kellerman in particular, whose head nearly hits the dashboard. Jack It seems likely Kellerman was working the radio. Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots? Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in. Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the time-- Mr. KELLERMAN. No more. Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it. Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come? Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message.

Not true, Jack. Here is the interview. At 1:43 he says MALL. Newman interview on WFAA And here is his testimony in the mock trial, where he makes perfectly clear that he thought the shots came from the back of the arcade, by the MALL. Newman and the bug

Wait. I thought the eight experts said they thought the back of the head had been painted in. Now you have them agreeing with your opinion there's a blow-out on the back of the head in 374 that isn't seen earlier, etc. Is there a list of all their findings? Can you post a quality version of 374 showing this blow-out? And, I hesitate to ask, can you post an image of the "blob"? I assumed your references to the "blob" were to the orange blob in the degraded versions of Z-313. Now Jack says it's a white blob. Is it seen in the frame below? Because I don't see a "blob"; I see the underside of a piece of skull broken and flipped forward and still hanging by a thread of scalp on the side of Kennedy's head. The shape of this skull fragment, moreover, matches precisely the shape of the fragment shown in the right lateral autopsy photo. From patspeer.com chapter 18: Another aspect of the medical evidence which has convinced many of fakery or deception is the “wing” of bone visible in the autopsy photos. It seemed to move from photo to photo and change shape. After much thought, however, I developed an explanation for these changes. When one looks at the Zapruder film, one can’t help but notice the large opening on Kennedy’s skull apparent in the frames after 313. This opening appears to begin just in front of his ear. When one looks at the right lateral autopsy photo one sees exposed bone behind his ear, however, and in a location where there was reportedly no missing bone or scalp. This is a clear indication that this bone was dislodged from someplace else. And yet it’s still attached to scalp. After some consideration I realized that when the scalp exploded downwards in frame 313 the skull bones that were attached to the scalp were suddenly upside down, and began to peel away from the scalp from the bottom (which was formally the top) down. The large fragment found on the floor of the limo by Sam Kinney peeled all the way and fell to the floor. It can be seen flying downwards in the frames after 313. A section of bone lower down on Kennedy’s skull, possibly including his sphenoid bone, didn’t finish peeling away from the scalp, however. It was left dangling by a thread. The shape of this bone can be seen in shadow in frame 323. When Jackie Kennedy tried to close her husband’s head wound, she failed to flip this “wing” of bone back around to match up with the scalp, and left this “wing” dangling back behind Kennedy’s ear. This is apparent in the right almost-lateral autopsy photo. Not surprisingly, the shape of this wing matches the shape of the shadow in frame 323. When one looks at the back of the head photo, obviously taken a few minutes later, as Kennedy is now lying on his side, one can see that the “wing” of bone has suddenly changed. It is now far forward of the ear and of different proportions. I believe this is because it’s no longer a “wing” of bone, but a “wing” of scalp, the stubborn scalp that held the wing in place for so long. The dimensions of this scalp flap can be seen in frame 337. Possibly the wing fell off when the doctors moved Kennedy onto his side or possibly they removed it deliberately to better observe the large defect. I just took a look at the Image of an Assassination DVD Close-up Frames in slow mo. From this it seems likely the "white blob" noted by Fetzer is the skull flap dangling by a strand of flesh, bouncing around on the side of Kennedy's head in the aftermath of the bullet's impact. I didn't see any indication of another shot impacting on the skull, although JFK's head does move around quite a bit as he falls to the floor of the limo, and a number of the frames are blurred. As a result, I wouldn't entirely rule it out.

Pat, thank you for posting the statements of William Newman. He seems to have been the closest bystander to the head shot, and his description mirrors exactly what we see in the Zfilm. However in your transcription the word "MALL" surely should be KNOLL (Jack White says Newman pronounced it to rhyme with DOLL). Since the fence is on the knoll, it strikes me that Newman's statements ARE consistent with a shot from the fence, i.e. the location of HATMAN, who is pointed out in Thompson's SIX SECONDS. Correct...the first film I saw of Newman...I guess in 1963, and many later times too...he said NOLL instead of knoll. The reason this immediately attracted my attention was that I lived on OAK KNOLL DRIVE...and I thought, what a country boy, he does not know how to pronounce KNOLL. Several transcribers substituted the word MALL, since they did not understand his Texas drawl. The first time I met Newman in person was when he talked before Jim Marrs' JFK class in the 80s. My most vivid recollection of his talk was his baseball bat analogy. He said (not an exact quote)...WE SAW THE BULLET HIT THE SIDE OF HIS FACE (HEAD) AND DRIVE HIS HEAD AWAY FROM US LIKE IT HAD BEEN HIT WITH A BASEBALL BAT. He mentioned seeing lots of blood cover the face and seeing an explosion LIKE HITTING A WATERMELON. I am certain that he did not mention the explosion going forward, or the class members would have jumped all over such a statement. At other Dallas symposiums I talked to him 2 or 3 times at least, and his story never changed. I am not familiar with what he told others, except through the massive research of Pat Speer, which seems to quote variations. However, in Speer's quotes, I saw no reference to a frontal blowout nor a bone flying open to the front. The nearest was "HIS EAR FLEW OFF". I believe he told the Marrs' class the same thing, and questioners told him the Z film did not show that, but he did not back off...so he saw "something" fly off. Perhaps he saw the Harper fragment "fly off". At that time the autopsy photos had not been made public showing the ear intact. Jack Keep in mind that Newman is describing an INSTANTANEOUS event. Were you to witness someone get shot in the head 15 feet away, you would have only a fleeting chance for shocked observation. Your mind would tend to "fill in" the rest. Remember, the bullet reaches the target before the sound, so this is likely what Newman perceived: 1. blood suddenly appears on president's face and side of head. (covering ear?) 2. noise of gunfire 3. skull fragments are blown out to rear, including what Newman thinks is ear. 4. head is propelled away from Newman 5. Newman thinks he is in line of fire, and falls to ground. The event happened so quickly that he could NOT HAVE PERCEIVED much more than the above. Anything else he said is likely caused by his brain trying to make sense of what he saw by filling in gaps. Put yourself in his shoes and TRY TO DESCRIBE any event lasting ONLY ONE SECOND. Jack Well, we agree on this. Newman's rapid reaction to the head shot, it seems clear, prevented him from hearing the gunshot immediately following the head shot heard by so many others standing nearby, including Hill, Moorman, Brehm, Summers, and Hudson, not to mention Kellerman, Greer, Kinney, Roberts, Hickey, etc. (Although some of the SS agents said they thought Kennedy was hit in the head by the last shot, they almost all claimed the last two shots were "instantaneous" or Bam-Bam, or some variant.) BTW, Newman said "Mall" and he meant "mall." mall 1 (môl, ml) n. 1. A large, often enclosed shopping complex containing various stores, businesses, and restaurants usually accessible by common passageways. 2. A street lined with shops and closed to vehicles. 3. A shady public walk or promenade. 4. Chiefly Upstate New York See median strip. See Regional Note at neutral ground. He was most certainly referring to the area behind the arcade on the Elm Street extension. In the 1986 mock trial, he was asked to mark where he thought the shots came from. "(When asked where he thought the shots were coming from) Sir, I thought the shots were coming from directly behind. (When asked to mark on the map where he thought the shots came from) It would be somewhere back in this general area. (He then makes a large mark across the southern side of the Elm Street extension back behind the eastern half of the arcade, to the West of the School Book Depository)." The picket fence was to his right.

Robert Merritt has asked me to post selected information on the Education Forum before our book, Watergate Exposed, is published because he is terminally ill. He is mentally alert and has a phenomenal memory but time is running out for him. While the book provides a wealth of material, our belief is that postings on the Forum may cause historians and other interested parties at this time to initiate their own research and investigation based on the information so provided. I first heard of Robert Merritt when I read a lengthy two-part article about him in national gay publication, The Advocate, in its February 23 and March 9, 1977 issues. In the article, “Revelations of a Gay Informant,” Merritt describes in great detail his Confidential Informant (CI) work for the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department (MPD), FBI and other government agencies. Carl Shoffler, who recruited him in1970, figures prominently in his revelations. It was upon reading this article when it was published that I first became aware that Shoffler and the MPD had targeted me in the days and months after the Watergate case broke. Previously, The Daily Rag of October 5-12, 1973, which had a circulation in Washington, D.C. of 35,000, carried an interview with Merritt titled, “FBI Informer Confesses.” Again, Merritt provided incredibly detailed information about his CI work under Shoffler. I was unaware of this article, which also mentioned me being targeted, until I came into possession of a copy last year. For obvious reasons, Merritt and I do not want undercut publication of the book by posting its entire contents on the Internet via our chosen venue, the Education Forum. However, to illustrate that Merritt knows whereof he speaks he asked me to state in answer to your second question in regard to the 70 men with whom Shoffler ordered him to have sex that he subsequently provided copies of his detailed report, prepared upon completion of his assignment, to his attorneys, Mitchell Rogovin of Arnold and Porter and David Isbell of Covington & Burling. In addition he provided a copy to the Institute for Policy Studies, which had been targeted by Shoffler and the FBI. A copy, along with other valuable material provided by Merritt to Jack Anderson, can be found in the archive files of the deceased nationally syndicated columnist in the library at George Washington University. Reports on the five MPD police officers that Shoffler ordered him to have sex with can be found in the files of MPD’s Internal Affairs Division that are stored in a warehouse in Maryland. Your other questions are answered in the book. Merritt and I believe that once the book is published a treasure trove of reports, files, recollections, and other information will begin flowing from sundry unknown sources that will support the book’s revelations. I look forward to reading the book.

Jack, you are just seeing what you want to see. Newman has been interviewed more than any other witness. He originally said he heard two shots. It then became three. He originally pointed to a spot in front of his ear. He then said the wound was so large it enveloped his ear. After years of talking to the likes of you, however, he started pointing behind his ear. He has been consistent on a few points however. One is that he has always described a single wound. He has never, in all the interviews I've read, or seen, claimed to have seen an entrance on the front of the head and an exit on the back. You simply made that up. (I mean, really, just look at those photos. What kind of bullet enters the temple sharply from the right of the head and then explodes outwards to the right a few inches to the back of the head? There is no such boomerang bullet and you know it.) He has also been consistent from the start that he thought the shots came from behind him, in the garden behind the arcade, and that they did not come from the picket fence and badge man location pretty much to his right. Newman has NEVER CHANGED HIS STORY to my knowledge. You say..."What kind of bullet enters the temple sharply from the right of the head and then explodes outwards to the right a few inches to the back of the head? There is no such boomerang bullet and you know it.)" Having studied this case since 1963, I have read many witnesses who described the wound as TANGENTIAL. Do you understand that word? It means that the bullet entered and exited on the same side of the head. It is not a boomerang bullet. It simply entered the left temple and exited the left occipital. You pick and choose things you want. Jack Jack, that the head wound was a tangential hit has been MY conclusion for several years, which is why I find Newman's words so important. A tangential hit, however, does not mean the bullet entered and exited from the same side of the head, it means it entered and exited from the same hole. You are trying to push that there was a small hole near the temple, observed by Newman and unobserved at Parkland, and that there was also a large blowout on the back of the head, observed by both Newman and at Parkland. There is no record, however, of Newman ever saying he saw two wounds. The pictures of him pointing to the back of the head are him pointing to the one large wound he saw, in a different location than where he originally said it was. You are correct, however, in that my assertion you were in some small part responsible for Newman moving the wound's location is unfair, and I will go back and edit out that part of my post. Here is a more complete selection of Newman's statements: William Newman was standing on the north side of Elm Street with his wife and two kids and can be seen in the Muchmore film. (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of the President's death, at approximately 12:45) “We were, we just come from Love Field after seeing the President and First Lady, and we were just in front of the triple underpass on Elm Street at the edge of the curb, getting ready to wave at the President. (After being asked to clarify his position) We were halfway in between the triple underpass. We were at the curb when this incident happened. But the President’s car was some fifty feet in front of us still yet in front of us coming toward us when we heard the first shot and the President. I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked, you know, fear. And then as the car got directly in front of us well a gunshot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.” (When asked if he thought the first shot came form the same location) "I think it came from the same location apparently back up on the mall, whatchacallit." (When asked if he thought the shot came from the viaduct) "Yes, sir, no, no, not on the viaduct itself but up on top of the hill, on the mound, of ground, in the garden." (When asked from how far away the shots were fired) "I have no idea. I didn't see where the gunshots come from. I believe we was looking directly at the President when he was hit. He was more or less directly in front of us. We didn't realize what happened until we seen the side of his head, when the bullet hit him. (When asked if he saw blood) "Yes sir, we seen it. I seen it" (11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of Kennedy's death, at approximately 1:00 PM) (When asked if he felt the shots came from different directions) "No sir, actually I feel that they both come from directly behind where we were standing. The President, it looked like he was looking in that direction. I don't know whether he was hit first. Apparently he wasn't. It looked like he jumped up in his seat, and when he jumped up he was shot directly in his head. I don't know whatchacallit--the mall behind us--but apparently (interviewer Bill Lord finishing his thought) "that's where he was." (11-22-63 third interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:10 PM) “My wife and my two sons were standing at the curb, looking at the President approaching us, when we heard a blast. And the President looked like that he right jumped up in his seat, and by that time he was directly in front of us. And then he......we seen him get shot in the side of the head. He fell back in the seat and Governor Connally was holding his stomach." (When asked if the shots were almost simultaneous) "Yes sir, they were probably 10 seconds apart." (When asked if he heard a third shot) "I didn't hear a third...I don't recall a third shot. There may have been. We hit...my family hit the ground. I don't recall a third shot. I just couldn't...I'm not certain of that. I do know I heard two shots." (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H219) “We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head.” (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H842) “when the President’s car was approximately 50 feet from him proceeding in a westerly direction on Elm Street, he heard the first shots fired...the shots were fired in rapid succession which he thought at the time was a firecracker. The car was proceeding toward him and it seemed that the President’s arms went up and that he raised up in his seat and started to look around. The car proceeded to a point about even with him and he could see Governor John Connally was holding his stomach. About that time another shot was fired which he estimated was ten seconds after the first shot was fired. At that time he heard the bullet strike the president and saw flesh fly from the President’s head… Newman first thought the President and Governor were playing some kind of a game.” (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “In my opinion the ear went…My thoughts were that the shot entered there and apparently the thoughts of the Warren Commission were that the shot came out that side.” (2-17-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “as the car was approaching I heard two shots -- BOOM, BOOM -- and when the first shot was fired the President throwed his hands up like this (demonstrating), and at the time what we thought had happened, somebody throwed firecrackers or something under the automobile and he was protecting his face. At the time of the first shot Governor Connally turned in his seat in this manner (demonstrating), to look back at the President I suppose, and then the second shot was fired, and then as the car approached us to where we were standing, I could see Governor Connally leaning back in his seat holding his hands down like this (demonstrating), and at that time I could see blood on his shirt, and that is when I actually realized that it appeared, you know, he had been shot. The President all the time was staying in an upright position in his seat and it looked like he was looking into the crowd of people as if he was trying to see someone. I caught a glimpse of his eyes, just looked like a cold stare, he just looked through me, and then when the car was directly in front of me, well, that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear and his ear come off…I observed his ear flying off, and he turned just real white and then blood red, and the President, when the third shot hit him he just went stiff like a board and fell over to his left in his wife's lap, and I told my wife, "That is it, hit the ground," and that is when we hit the ground because I thought the shots were coming over our heads. And then I looked back and I saw Mrs. Kennedy jumping up on the back end of the car…” (The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979) Civilian L “When the President’s car came around the corner, I had a good view from about 150 feet. About that time I heard two loud sounds about three seconds apart. I didn’t associate them with gunshots… They seemed more like firecrackers. However, I did notice a change in President Kennedy, his arm went up and he seemed to stiffen. Just after the two sounds…the limousine stopped for an instant, a large man in the right front seat picked up what looked to be a telephone, and then the car shot forward again. Some of the agents on the following car got off…From a distance of 12-to 15 feet…we saw the bullet hit the President from the right rear and literally tear away the side of his scalp and right ear…Thinking about it afterwards, I had the impression that they had been fired from behind us. I noticed Mr. Zapruder with his camera and thought it was a gun. My impression was only “behind us,” not from the stockade fence. I am certain no shot was fired from there.” (7-23-86 testimony in televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) "As the President's car come towards us, probably 200 feet or so from us, we heard a Boom (one second pause) Boom, like that. The President sorta throwed his arms up, and we thought at that time maybe someone had throwed firecrackers or something beside the President's car. As the President's car came closer to us, we could see that something was wrong. Governor Connally, I could see the blood on his shirt, and Governor Connally's eyes protruding. And the President was looking into the crowd of people. He was moving his head about and looking into the crowd of the people. And just as the President's car got directly in front of me, the President was probably fifteen feet away, Boom, and the side of his ear flew off, and justa, bits and pieces flew off. I can remember seeing just a white flash, and then the red, and the President fell across the car, as if you'd hit him with a bat. He fell across the car, and back, into Mrs. Kennedy's lap. I remember her saying 'Oh my God! They've shot Jack!'...Mrs. Kennedy...At that time I turned to Gayle and I said 'That's it! Hit the ground! We hit the ground because we thought we were in direct line of fire. (When asked where he thought the shots were coming from) Sir, I thought the shots were coming from directly behind. (When asked to mark on the map where he thought the shots came from) It would be somewhere back in this general area. (He then makes a large mark across the southern side of the Elm Street extension back behind the eastern half of the arcade, to the West of the School Book Depository). (When asked by Bugliosi if he thought the shot that hit Kennedy in the head was the last shot) "Yes sir, I do." (Interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) “I can remember seeing the side of the President’s ear and head come off. I remember a flash of white and red and just bits and pieces of flesh exploding from the President’s head. At that time, I turned to Gayle and said “That’s it, hit the ground.” And we turned and hit the ground and covered our children. When the third shot was fired I thought it came from directly behind, towards the grassy knoll behind us. I base that primarily on the third shot, from what I saw, the sight of the President’s head coming off, and from the sound of the rifle, the report of the rifle” (Interview with Jim Marrs published in Crossfire, 1989) "As he was coming straight toward us there was a boom, boom, real close together. I thought someone was throwing firecrackers. He got this bewildered look on his face and was sort of slowing moving back and forth. The he got nearer to us, and, bam, a shot took the right side of his head off. His ear flew off. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say 'Oh, my God, no, they shot Jack!' He was knocked violently back against the seat, almost as if he had been hit by a baseball bat. At that time, I was looking right at the President and I thought the shots were coming from directly behind us. I said, "That's it! Get on the ground!" (11-20-97 interview published in No Case To Answer, 2005) "the President's car was out the distance of one lane from the curb line and some one hundred and fifty feet from us, some short distance, when the first two shots rang out. And it was a boom-boom. They were very close together and I could remember thinking "Boy, that's a poor thing to do." I thought someone had thrown a couple of firecrackers at the side of the President's car. At that moment, I didn't realize that it was gunfire and the President had been shot. I can remember his arms go up...he just kinda came forward and made a motion and apparently he was hit by one of the first two shots. As the car got closer to us I could see that something was wrong. I could see Governor Connally and I could see his eyes protruding and I could see him holding himself and I could see blood on his shirt. I can remember that the President looked to me like he was sorta looking into the crowd with a bewildered look on his face. As the car got directly in front of us--and we were on the curb's edge--and the President was probably not much further than I am from you (about ten feet) the third shot rang out and I can remember seeing the side of President Kennedy's head blow off. There was black matter and then grayish and he fell across Mrs. Kennedy, into her lap, and she jumped up and hollered "Oh my God no. They've shot Jack." And I turned to Gayle and I said: "That's it--hit the ground." And we turned and pushed our kids down on the ground behind us." (When describing his impression of the direction from which the shots were fired) "From my view it was just "behind" and it was a visual impact it had on me of seeing the head wound and seeing President Kennedy go across the seat. That gave me the impression of the shot being fired from behind..." (No More Silence p. 94-101, published 1998) “As the President’s car started down Elm, the first two shots were fired. It was BOOM!…BOOM! like that. The first two were much closer together in my opinion. It's hard for me to tell the time frame because my concentration was on the President's car. I'm sure the Zapruder film can tell exactly the time frame. But the first two shots were much closer than the third shot. At that time I thought someone had thrown a couple of firecrackers or something beside the President's car. I didn't even realize at that time it was gunfire. The President’s car was probably 150 feet or so from us at the time. As the car came closer to us, it was obvious something was wrong. I could see Governor Connally; I could see his protruding eyes, and I could see him more or less frozen in the seat holding himself. You could see the blood on Governor Connally and President Kennedy. When the first two shots were fired, he threw his arms up. I believe I said at the time that he raised up in his seat, which I think, in reality, all he did was throw his arms up. I can remember him turning, looking into the crowd, and just as the car passed in front of us at a distance of ten to fifteen feet, the third shot rang out, and it hit the President. It appeared to me that it hit him on the side of the head, as the side of his head came off. I can remember seeing a white mass, and then just a mass of red. The President fell across the car away from me over into Mrs. Kennedy's lap. It was as if someone had given him a hard shove. It wasn't like slow motion. He went across the seat pretty quick. Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and said, "Oh my God, no, they've shot Jack!" Then I recall her on the back of the car when the Secret Service agent ran toward the car and pushed her back in. When the third shot rang out, I turned to Gayle and said, "That's it! Hit the ground!" because at that time I thought the shot came from directly behind us in the grassy knoll area. The only basis I had for that was what I visually saw: the President going across the car and seeing the side of his head come off. The sound played little factor. I believe it was a visual thing at that time. We turned and hit the ground and threw our children down and covered them." (November 1998 interview with Texas Monthly) “”When his car was probably a hundred fifty feet or so from us, the first two shots rang out and it was boom!(smacks his hand) boom! (smacks his hand again) like that.” (History Channel program "Our Generation", broadcast 2007) "The President's car came toward us, probably some hundred feet or so from us, when the first shots rang out...I seen a bewildered look on President Kennedy's face...And when his limousine was straight out in front of us the third shot rang out...She (Jackie) hollered out "Oh my God no they've shot Jack" and I turned to Gayle and I said "That's it! Hit the ground!" (Pierce Allman, "Our Generation", broadcast 2007) "A cop he got off his motorcycle and he said "everybody get down" and I bounced right back up and ran across the street and picked up Bill and Gayle Newman--I didn't know their names of the couple at the time--they had two little kids--and I said "Are you okay?" And he said "Yeah, but they got the President. They blew the side of his head in." (11-19-08 AP article by Dylan Lovan) "As the president's black convertible came into sight, Bill Newman said, he heard what he thought were fireworks. 'I didn't recognize it as a gunshot,' he said, clapping his hands twice with a pause to simulate the sounds. But as the limousine drew closer, Newman said he could see blood on Kennedy and Texas Gov. John Connally, who was in the car with the president. 'Ten, 12 feet in front of us, the third shot rang out, and that's when the side of his head flew off and I could remember seeing' the blood, Bill Newman said. 'I turned to Gayle and I said, that's it, hit the ground.' (When asked if he felt there was second gunman on the grassy knoll) 'I do tend to want to lean in the direction that it was a conspiracy, meaning more than one person was involved. But so far, no one's ever come forward with concrete evidence."

I've followed the Fetzer/Thompson feud for several years and the recent bout on this forum is probably the most civil exchange they've had in a decade. I feel almost certain rapprochement is at hand.

Jack, you are just seeing what you want to see. Newman has been interviewed more than any other witness. He originally said he heard two shots. It then became three. He originally pointed to a spot in front of his ear. He then said the wound was so large it enveloped his ear. After years of pointing this out to people, however, he started pointing behind his ear. He has been consistent on a few points however. One is that he has always described a single wound. He has never, in all the interviews I've read, or seen, claimed to have seen an entrance on the front of the head and an exit on the back. You simply made that up. (I mean, really, just look at those photos. What kind of bullet enters the temple sharply from the right of the head and then explodes outwards to the right a few inches to the back of the head? There is no such boomerang bullet and you know it.) He has also been consistent from the start that he thought the shots came from behind him, in the garden behind the arcade, and that they did not come from the picket fence and badge man location pretty much to his right.

So, Jack, to be clear, do you believe Newman was simply mistaken when he described the wound location on TV minutes after the shooting, and depicted it in front of JFK's ear? Or do you think he was part of the plot? And what about Zapruder, who confirmed Newman's impression? Was his confirmation of the wound location presented by Newman a coincidence? Or did the plotters, including Zapruder, just get lucky when Newman was rushed onto TV and asked to describe the large head wound's location, only to have him mistakenly place it in the exact location they'd planned on creating a fake wound? I have talked to Bill Newman many times. HE NEVER DESCRIBED A BLOWOUT TO THE FRONT. Instead he talked of a bullet to the temple and blood. He said that the force of the bullet hitting the temple DROVE THE PRESIDENT BACKWARD* AS IF HIS HEAD HAD BEEN HIT BY A BASEBALL BAT. He never mentioned any blowout to the front or white bone flap (blob). Have YOU talked to Newman? What did he tell you? Jack *He said the backward movement of the head was what made him think that the head shot came from "the garden up there by the monument, the grassy noll". Newman was the first person to refer to the GRASSY KNOLL, even though he mispronounced it n-o-l-l, rhyming with doll. Wrong, Jack. Newman and his wife saw a large wound on the side of Kennedy's head, not a small entrance hole that could possibly be missed at Parkland. Not only did they never mention seeing a blow out wound on the back of JFK's head, Newman eventually said he thought he thought the bullet striking JFK blew his right ear off. It follows then that he was not describing a little round hole in the hairline. William Newman was standing on the north side of Elm Street with his wife and two kids and can be seen in the Muchmore film. (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of the President's death, at approximately 12:45) “We were, we just come from Love Field after seeing the President and First Lady, and we were just in front of the triple underpass on Elm Street at the edge of the curb, getting ready to wave at the President. (After being asked to clarify his position) We were halfway in between the triple underpass. We were at the curb when this incident happened. But the President’s car was some fifty feet in front of us still yet in front of us coming toward us when we heard the first shot and the President. I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked, you know, fear. And then as the car got directly in front of us well a gunshot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.” (When asked if he thought the first shot came form the same location) "I think it came from the same location apparently back up on the mall, whatchacallit." (When asked if he thought the shot came from the viaduct) "Yes, sir, no, no, not on the viaduct itself but up on top of the hill, on the mound, of ground, in the garden." (When asked from how far away the shots were fired) "I have no idea. I didn't see where the gunshots come from. I believe we was looking directly at the President when he was hit. He was more or less directly in front of us. We didn't realize what happened until we seen the side of his head, when the bullet hit him. (When asked if he saw blood) "Yes sir, we seen it. I seen it" (11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of Kennedy's death, at approximately 1:00 PM) (When asked if he felt the shots came from different directions) "No sir, actually I feel that they both come from directly behind where we were standing. The President, it looked like he was looking in that direction. I don't know whether he was hit first. Apparently he wasn't. It looked like he jumped up in his seat, and when he jumped up he was shot directly in his head. I don't know whatchacallit--the mall behind us--but apparently (interviewer Bill Lord finishing his thought) "that's where he was." (11-22-63 third interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:10 PM) “My wife and my two sons were standing at the curb, looking at the President approaching us, when we heard a blast. And the President looked like that he right jumped up in his seat, and by that time he was directly in front of us. And then he......we seen him get shot in the side of the head. He fell back in the seat and Governor Connally was holding his stomach." (When asked if the shots were almost simultaneous) "Yes sir, they were probably 10 seconds apart." (When asked if he heard a third shot) "I didn't hear a third...I don't recall a third shot. There may have been. We hit...my family hit the ground. I don't recall a third shot. I just couldn't...I'm not certain of that. I do know I heard two shots." (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H219) “We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head.” (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H842) “when the President’s car was approximately 50 feet from him proceeding in a westerly direction on Elm Street, he heard the first shots fired...the shots were fired in rapid succession which he thought at the time was a firecracker. The car was proceeding toward him and it seemed that the President’s arms went up and that he raised up in his seat and started to look around. The car proceeded to a point about even with him and he could see Governor John Connally was holding his stomach. About that time another shot was fired which he estimated was ten seconds after the first shot was fired. At that time he heard the bullet strike the president and saw flesh fly from the President’s head… Newman first thought the President and Governor were playing some kind of a game.” (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “In my opinion the ear went…My thoughts were that the shot entered there and apparently the thoughts of the Warren Commission were that the shot came out that side.” (2-17-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “as the car was approaching I heard two shots -- BOOM, BOOM -- and when the first shot was fired the President throwed his hands up like this (demonstrating), and at the time what we thought had happened, somebody throwed firecrackers or something under the automobile and he was protecting his face. At the time of the first shot Governor Connally turned in his seat in this manner (demonstrating), to look back at the President I suppose, and then the second shot was fired, and then as the car approached us to where we were standing, I could see Governor Connally leaning back in his seat holding his hands down like this (demonstrating), and at that time I could see blood on his shirt, and that is when I actually realized that it appeared, you know, he had been shot. The President all the time was staying in an upright position in his seat and it looked like he was looking into the crowd of people as if he was trying to see someone. I caught a glimpse of his eyes, just looked like a cold stare, he just looked through me, and then when the car was directly in front of me, well, that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear and his ear come off…I observed his ear flying off, and he turned just real white and then blood red, and the President, when the third shot hit him he just went stiff like a board and fell over to his left in his wife's lap, and I told my wife, "That is it, hit the ground," and that is when we hit the ground because I thought the shots were coming over our heads. And then I looked back and I saw Mrs. Kennedy jumping up on the back end of the car…” Frances Gayle Newman: (11-22-63 first interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of Kennedy's death, at approximately 12:45) (When asked if she saw the blood) "Yes sir, it was awful." (When asked what her first thought was after the shots were fired) "I thought it was a firecracker and I saw the blood and I.....I had the baby and I .....I just ran and we....I got on top of him and laid on the grass. I....I was....it scared me. It was terrible." (When asked what else she saw) "Governor Connally was kinda turned to the side and he grabbed his stomach." (11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:17 PM) “We were standing next to the curb so the children could see the President. And the car was just up apiece from us and this shot fired out, and I thought it was a firecracker, and the President kind of raised up in his seat. And I thought, you know, he was kind of going along with a gag or something. And then all of a sudden the next one popped, and Governor Connally grabbed his stomach and kind of laid over to the side. And then another one—it was just awful fast. And President Kennedy reached up and grabbed--it looked like he grabbed--his ear and blood just started gushing out. And my husband said “Quick, get down” and I grabbed the baby and we ran and laid down on the grass and I got on top of him. It was just right by us when it all happened, just right in front of us." (When asked if she saw anybody) "It happened so fast that you didn't have the chance to see anything. It was just too fast.” (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H218) “When President Kennedy’s car was about ten feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and then covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor Connally kind of grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car. When I first saw and heard all this, I thought it was all of a joke. Just about the time President Kennedy was in front of us, I heard another shot ring out and the President put his hands up to his head, I saw blood all over the side of his head. About this time, Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and he kind of lay over to the side kind of in her arms. Then my husband, Billy, said it is a shot. We grabbed our two children and my husband lay on one child and I lay on the other one on the grass. We started to get up and then all of a sudden we lay back down. I don’t know what it was but another shot may have been fired that caused us to lay back down.” (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H842) “She estimated that when the limousine bearing the President was about 50 feet from them she heard 2 reports and the President seemed to rise up in his seat. A few seconds later she heard another shot and saw that the President had been hit in the head because she saw blood flowing from his body. She believed there were first two shots in succession, a pause, then another shot was fired which struck the President… After the shots were fired, she and her husband each grabbed a child and lay down on the grass fearing they might be hit by gunfire.” (2-15-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “The President's car was maybe 100 or 150 feet from us when I first heard the noise and the first two noises were close together, just seconds apart…at the time of the first noise he threw his hands up…He threw his hands up like this and sort of turned his head… I saw Governor Connally with the first shot seemed to turn a little bit like this. (Indicating.)… at the time of the second shot Governor Connally grabbed his stomach…his eyes just got real big and he sort of slumped down in the seat…we heard a third report, it was a short time, not maybe 10 or 12 seconds after the first two shots…that shot when it happened, the President's car was directly in front of us and it was about a lane's width between us, it wasn't in the lane next to the curb it was in the middle lane, and at that time he was shot in the head right at his ear or right above his ear…The President, his head just seemed to explode, just bits of his skull flew in the air and he fell to the side.” See?? No description of a large blow out on the back of JFK's head... Just a large wound on the side of his head. So...I ask once again. Is it just a coincidence that Newman described the wound in the same manner as Zapruder?

Oy Vey, Jack. Hargis and his bike are shown in the Bell film, here: He pulled his bike to the side. Later in the film you can see Haygood's bike on the opposite side. The Couch film also shows Haygood's bike. He left it at the base of the hill. Are you now claiming the Couch film, shown on TV within hours of the assassination, is a fake? If so, is there any assassination film you know of that is, in your opinion, not a fake?

So, Jack, to be clear, do you believe Newman was simply mistaken when he described the wound location on TV minutes after the shooting, and depicted it in front of JFK's ear? Or do you think he was part of the plot? And what about Zapruder, who confirmed Newman's impression? Was his confirmation of the wound location presented by Newman a coincidence? Or did the plotters, including Zapruder, just get lucky when Newman was rushed onto TV and asked to describe the large head wound's location, only to have him mistakenly place it in the exact location they'd planned on creating a fake wound?

I'm still a bit confused. Is what I take to be a bone flap in 323 what Jack calls the blob, but not what you call the blob? If so, where is what you call the blob in 323? Or is it not visible in this frame? I looked at Z-374, by the way. While the back of the head is quite dark, there is a lighter area on the right side. It looks whitish and not reddish, however. As a result, it might just be the glare of the sun on JFK's hair or some such thing. There is, however, one red patch down near the base of the skull. This might lend support for the EOP entrance observed at autopsy. In any event, I agree this frame should be closely studied, and brought to the attention of the Hollywood group for comparison with the earlier frames.

Jim, I included Z-323 in my last post. You insist there is a white blob of bulging brain in Z-14 to Z-327. That means there is one in this image. I don't see it. I see the skull flap, and a shadow made by this flap on the right side of Kennedy's head. Can you show me what you take to be a "blob" as opposed to a skull flap? You also say there is a blow-out visible in 374. I don't currently have access to a copy of Hoax. I did look at this frame on the MPI DVD, however, and saw no such blow-out. Do you have a version of 374 with an arrow pointing to the blow-out?

This is complete and utter nonsense. Jack Yeah, of course it is. I see a contradiction between a film and a few statements and consider the possibility those making the statements lied, or at least exaggerated. (It certainly seems possible Chaney raced up to the lead car after the car left the plaza). You, on the other hand develop a theory that the film is fake, and then insist the film is fake and worthless beyond the fact it is fake EVEN IF it suggests a conspiracy. Because, by golly, the Dallas Police would never lie about such a thing... Here is a link to the Nix film: Nix Film Chaney and Jackson slam on their brakes about 15 seconds in. Do you 1) deny they slammed on their brakes? 2) think the Nix film was faked to include their slamming on their brakes even though this was never brought out in testimony, and would be highly embarrassing to the Dallas Police? Here are the descriptions of the shooting by Chaney and Jackson. Note that Chaney initially claimed Kennedy was hit in the face by the second shot, and then corrected his story to be that JFK was hit in the head by the third shot. Note also that Jackson admitted his coming to a stop, but later claimed the limo stopped when talking to a conspiracy theorist. Note also that both men noted a large wound on the right side of Kennedy's head and/or face, but made no mention of a blow out on the back of his head. From patspeer.com, chapter 5: James Chaney rode to the right and rear of the President. Despite the fact he was the closest witness behind the President and that he had a private conversation with Jack Ruby on the day following the assassination, Chaney was not questioned by the Warren Commission. (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, as shown on Youtube) “I was riding on the right rear fender...We had proceeded west on Elm Street at approximately 15-20 miles per hour. We heard the first shot. I thought it was a motorcycle backfiring and uh I looked back over to my left and also President Kennedy looked back over his left shoulder. Then, the, uh, second shot came, well, then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we were being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital and he had Parkland Hospital stand by. I went on up ahead of the, to notify the officers that were leading the escort that he had been hit and we're gonna have to move out." (When asked if he saw the person who fired on the President) "No sir, it was back over my right shoulder.” (Note: some sources have it that Chaney also mentioned “a third shot that was fired that (he) did not see hit the President” and that he did see “Governor Connally’s shirt erupt in blood..” but I can not find a primary source for this part of the interview.) ((3-24-64 testimony of Mark Lane before the Warren Commission, 2H32-61) “James A. Chaney, who is a Dallas motorcycle policeman, was quoted in the Houston Chronicle on 11-24-63, as stating that the first shot missed entirely. He said he was 6 feet to the right and front of the President's car, moving about 15 miles an hour, and when the first shot was fired, "I thought it was a backfire." (12-8-63 AP article by Sid Moody) "His head erupted in blood" said Dallas patrolman James Chaney, who was 6 feet away from the president." (3-25-64 testimony of Marrion Baker before the Warren Commission, 3H242-270) “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.” (9-12-75 FBI report) “Chaney stated that as the President’s car passed the…(TSBD), he was four to six feet from the President’s right shoulder. He heard three evenly spaced noises coming seconds apart, which at first he thought to be motorcycle backfire. Upon hearing the second noise, he was sure it was not a motorcycle backfire. When he heard the third noise he saw the President’s head “explode” and realized the noises were gunshots. He said that the shots did not come from his immediate vicinity and is positive that all the shots came from behind him.” (9-17-75 FBI report) “after making a left turn off Houston Street and shortly after the car had passed the School Book Depository, Chaney heard a noise which sounded like one of the motorcycles close to the President’s car had backfired…Chaney said he glanced to his left at the two motorcycles on the opposite side of the President’s car…Within a few seconds after Chaney heard the first noise, he heard a noise again and turned to his right to try and determine what the noise was and where it was coming from…Chaney said he then looked straight ahead to avoid colliding with the curb and presidential car and then looked at the President just as he heard a third noise. Chaney said while he was looking at President Kennedy, he saw his head “explode.” Chaney said he was positive that all the noises he heard were coming from behind his motorcycle and none of these noises came from the side or the front of the position in which Chaney was located. Chaney said the noises were evenly spaced.” Douglas Jackson rode on the far right of the President. (Notes written on the night of 11-22-63 as reprinted in The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979): Officer C “we turned west onto Elm Street. Drove only a short way traveling very slowly. About that time I heard what I thought was a car back fire and I looked around and then to the President’s car in time for the next explosion and saw Mr. Connally jerk back to his right and it seemed that he look right at me. I could see a shocked expression on his face…I began stopping my motor…I looked back toward Mr. Kennedy and saw him hit in the head; he appeared to have been hit just above the right ear. The top of his head flew off away from me.” (As quoted by Fred Newcomb in Murder from Within, an unpublished manuscript from 1974) ""Mr. Connally was looking toward me. And about that time then the second shot went off. That's the point when I knew that somebody was shooting at them because that was the time he [Connally] got hit - because he jerked. I was looking directly at him…he was looking…kind of back toward me and…he just kind of flinched." "…that car just all but stopped…just a moment." (9-17-75 FBI report) “As the presidential vehicle was proceeding down Elm Street, and Jackson was turning the corner from Houston to Elm Street, he heard a loud (noise) which he first thought to be a motorcycle backfire. (He looked) at the Presidential car to see what the reaction was and observed Texas Governor John Connally turn to his right in the car. At the same time he heard a second noise and saw Connally jerk to his right. At this point, Jackson had just rounded the corner from Houston to Elm Street and he recognized the second noise as a definite gunshot…At this point, he was 15 to 20 feet away from the Presidential vehicle and he stopped his motorcycle in the street and looked toward the railroad overpass, directly in front of the Presidential car. He observed a police officer with his hands on his hips, looking toward the Presidential car. As this appeared normal, he then looked to his right and rear in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository and the intersection of Houston and Elm Street and observed many bystanders falling to the ground. He looked toward the Presidential vehicle and at the same time heard a third shot fired. He observed President Kennedy struck in the head above his right ear and the impact of the bullet exploded the top portion of his head, toward the left side of the Presidential vehicle. Jackson immediately knew that Kennedy had been hit and that the shot had been fired from his right rear.”

Pat, First of all, others have "cracked the case" already. The dots connect themselves. See Salandria, Vincent. Fonzi, Gaeton. See Hancock, Larry. Or McKnight, Gerald. See Bamford, James. And Scott, Peter D. Once you adsorb the information these gentlemen have to share, and once you realize that properly prepared medical evidence trumps improperly prepared medical evidence, then the case falls neatly into place. Second of all, the T3 back wound isn't my claim, Pat. None of this is about me (except for the punk rock bit.) It is the observation of more than a dozen witnesses who had prolonged views of the stationary body. It is the location indicated by hard, physical evidence: the bullet holes in the clothes. It is the location recorded in properly prepared medical documents. It is the observation of a great American hero, Clint Hill. In my opinion there were two great American heroes in Dealey Plaza who tried to prevent Kennedy from getting shot. Clint Hill and Tosh Plumlee. We don't have documentation for Tosh -- if you buy his rap you buy it, that's it. Clint Hill, however, is a world renown bona fide American hero. He performed two acts of brave service to his country on 11/22 -- but in general Clint Hill only gets credit for one. The first we all know about -- the dash to the limo and the rescue of the First Lady. The second thing he did in the line of duty was even more significant. From Clint Hill's sworn statement (emphasis added): Pat, let's just think about this for a moment. In service to his country and to historical truth itself, Clint Hill observed a back wound six inches down from the neckline. This matches the location of the hole in the shirt, 5.75" below the top of the collar. Is T1 six inches below the neckline? Of course not! Could Clint Hill have mistaken "about 4 inches" for "about 6 inches"? When he was three years old, maybe! Do you know the difference between "about six inches" and "about four inches," Pat? I know I do! And to argue that Clint Hill didn't is pure witness bashing. There are more than a dozen other guys who, while serving their country, observed the low back wound at Bethesda. These men -- and one woman, Diana Bowron at Parkland -- have had their honor, their credibility, even their honesty challenged for 46+ years and I for one am sick of it. They never saw the body. The studied an autopsy photo that they singled out as "deficient as scientific evidence" but went ahead and based their conclusion on that! So you have a panel of guys who never saw the body conclude the wound was at T1 on the basis of a photograph they conceded was improperly prepared and prima facie inadmissible in court. From Vol 7 of the HSCA findings (emphasis added): And by what stretch of logic does the HSCA FPP T1 conclusion trump the often graphic descriptions of the low back wound by more than a dozen people who had prolonged views of the wound? Those measurements you're citing -- what was it, 13.5 cm below the mastoid process? -- were written in PEN on the autopsy face sheet. The other notations on the face sheet -- the dot consistent with T4, the signed verification -- were written in PENCIL. According to proper autopsy protocol the notations must be made in PENCIL. By what stretch of logic do you conclude that IMPROPERLY prepared autopsy evidence trumps PROPERLY prepared autopsy evidence? Are you claiming that George Burkley never saw the wounds? He was the only one present at both Parkland and Bethesda! I don't mean to get nasty here, Pat, but do you only study evidence that comports with your theories? Are you wholly unfamiliar with the autopsy face sheet diagram, which was properly marked "verified" in PENCIL? Are you wholly unfamiliar with the facts concerning Clint Hill, Roy Kellerman and Will Greer being sent to the morgue to view the wounds? All of them put the wound lower down his back! Sibert and O'Neill also prepared wound diagrams consistent with the lower back wound. Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett reported, "I saw a shot hit the Boss about four inches down from the right shoulder." The bullet holes in the shirt and jacket are 4 inches below the collar. Like Clint Hill, Glen Bennett nailed the location of the wound exactly! James Curtis Jenkins, autopsy-attendee, in BODY OF EVIDENCE pg 713: Here's a guy who had his nose in JFK's chest cavity and graphically described the low, non-transiting wound. Did he hallucinate it, Pat? Dr. John Ebersole attended the autopsy and told Dr. David Mantik in 1992 that the back wound was at T4! (KILLING THE TRUTH, Livingstone, pg 721). Chester H. Boyers was the chief Petty Officer in charge of the Pathology Department at Bethesda in November 1963. This is from Boyers signed affidavit: "Under the scapula" is consistent with T3. Then we have the holes in the clothes and the fact that custom-made dress shirts only have a fraction of an inch of available slack, and the Dealey Plaza photos show JFK's jacket dropping. That's concrete physical evidence of the T3 wound, well corroborated by the properly prepared medical evidence and the witness statements of more than a dozen people who had a prolonged view of the wound. 1) Because it is a blatant lie, a product of the cover-up we are working to expose. 2) Because you are then taking a prima facie case for conspiracy and putting it on a shelf which requires "experts" to evaluate. Why are you attempting to water down conspiracy evidence in order to support what is obviously a total fabrication? Cliff, you are the one who is trying to water down conspiracy evidence by needlessly arguing against the official findings when the official findings suggest more than one shooter. If T-1 is consistent with the single-bullet theory, why does EVERY single-bullet theorist move the wound upwards? The only witness you cited to claim the wound was at T-3 was Burkley. In all other cases, you have interpreted what they said as T-3. But the Sibert and O'Neill drawings, for example, place the wound exactly where it was on the face sheet, in line with the shoulder tip, which is T-1, T-2 at the lowest. You're not even logical. Clint Hill said "I observed a wound about six inches down from the neckline on the back just to the right of the spinal column." You then bizarrely insist there was no way he could mistake 4 inches with 6 inches. This is ludicrous. People make this kind of mistake all day long. You then prop up Bennett's approximation of "about 4 inches down from the right shoulder", and assume he means 4 inches down on the clothes. Well, what does Bennett mean by shoulder...the shoulder tip? The higher point where the shoulder muscles attach the neck? It is all too vague. YOU interpret Hill's "about 6 inches" and Bennett's "about 4 inches" to be the same location only because YOUR pet theory demands it. The back wound photo proves the bullet entrance was too low to support the single-bullet theory. As demonstrated in my videos, it proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Arlen Specter suborned perjury during the testimony of Thomas Kelley. Pretending this photo is a fake, or too confusing, or of no value, is just ridiculous. Not only would this photo have been allowed into evidence should the case have come to trial, it would have been the key piece of evidence convincing a jury that Oswald could not have acted alone.

Wait. I thought the eight experts said they thought the back of the head had been painted in. Now you have them agreeing with your opinion there's a blow-out on the back of the head in 374 that isn't seen earlier, etc. Is there a list of all their findings? Can you post a quality version of 374 showing this blow-out? And, I hesitate to ask, can you post an image of the "blob"? I assumed your references to the "blob" were to the orange blob in the degraded versions of Z-313. Now Jack says it's a white blob. Is it seen in the frame below? Because I don't see a "blob"; I see the underside of a piece of skull broken and flipped forward and still hanging by a thread of scalp on the side of Kennedy's head. The shape of this skull fragment, moreover, matches precisely the shape of the fragment shown in the right lateral autopsy photo. From patspeer.com chapter 18: Another aspect of the medical evidence which has convinced many of fakery or deception is the “wing” of bone visible in the autopsy photos. It seemed to move from photo to photo and change shape. After much thought, however, I developed an explanation for these changes. When one looks at the Zapruder film, one can’t help but notice the large opening on Kennedy’s skull apparent in the frames after 313. This opening appears to begin just in front of his ear. When one looks at the right lateral autopsy photo one sees exposed bone behind his ear, however, and in a location where there was reportedly no missing bone or scalp. This is a clear indication that this bone was dislodged from someplace else. And yet it’s still attached to scalp. After some consideration I realized that when the scalp exploded downwards in frame 313 the skull bones that were attached to the scalp were suddenly upside down, and began to peel away from the scalp from the bottom (which was formally the top) down. The large fragment found on the floor of the limo by Sam Kinney peeled all the way and fell to the floor. It can be seen flying downwards in the frames after 313. A section of bone lower down on Kennedy’s skull, possibly including his sphenoid bone, didn’t finish peeling away from the scalp, however. It was left dangling by a thread. The shape of this bone can be seen in shadow in frame 323. When Jackie Kennedy tried to close her husband’s head wound, she failed to flip this “wing” of bone back around to match up with the scalp, and left this “wing” dangling back behind Kennedy’s ear. This is apparent in the right almost-lateral autopsy photo. Not surprisingly, the shape of this wing matches the shape of the shadow in frame 323. When one looks at the back of the head photo, obviously taken a few minutes later, as Kennedy is now lying on his side, one can see that the “wing” of bone has suddenly changed. It is now far forward of the ear and of different proportions. I believe this is because it’s no longer a “wing” of bone, but a “wing” of scalp, the stubborn scalp that held the wing in place for so long. The dimensions of this scalp flap can be seen in frame 337. Possibly the wing fell off when the doctors moved Kennedy onto his side or possibly they removed it deliberately to better observe the large defect.

Don, FWIW, when I created my database for the eyewitnesses a few years back, I noticed the confluence of Chaney stories, with the claim he sped up just after the shots, etc. The Nix film, however, shows both Chaney and Douglas Jackson slamming on their brakes at the time of the head shot. (This, in turn, led to other cars slamming on their brakes and quite possibly led to the perception the limo itself came to a stop.) Chaney and Jackson were supposed to be serving as BODYGUARDS and not just escorts. Thus, their slamming on their brakes to protect themselves at a time when the President needed their protection would almost certainly have been considered an embarrassment to the City of Dallas and the State of Texas, etc. We should recall here that the Attorney General of Texas made a side deal with Warren that he would not conduct his own investigation as long as the WC treated Texas fairly, which one can only interpret as ignoring the evidence of DPD incompetence and possible complicity. It should come as no surprise then to see that neither Chaney nor Jackson was interviewed by the FBI about what they saw and did during the motorcade, and were not called to testify by the WC. In this light, I suspect the "Chaney sped up" story was an orchestrated lie designed to hide that Dallas' finest cowered in terror when put to the ultimate test.

From my perspective as a layman not entirely familiar with the photographic issues, this thread seems to have run aground. Despite Jack's protests, Tink and Jerry's observation that the film studied by the Hollywood group is a fifth generation image undoubtedly undermines the group's observation that the back of the head appears painted in. When one watches Groden's assasination films DVD, one can see several different copies of the Z-film, copies of copies, or even copies of copies of copies. On several of these the explosion of blood and brain in frame 313 looks like an orange blob. On his best copy, however, this blob is less orange and less blobbish. The MPI DVD, moreover, shows this "blob" not to be orange, and not to be a blob, but a spray of blood and brain in most every direction. This thread is also confusing in that Dr. Fetzer keeps bringing up activities he believes the Z-film should show, should it be authentic, that it doesn't show. This is a completely unrelated argument, as I understand it. While he is correct if he is trying to make the point that the clarity of the film is beside the point if what it shows never happened, he is incorrect if he thinks this supports that what the Hollywood group thought was an altered image was indeed an altered image, and not just an artifact created through what is in essence photographing a photograph. I mean, no one is suggesting that the film fails to show Chaney's drive for glory because it's just too blurry, are they?