Pat Speer

Larry, I seem to remember reading that the man who performed the break-in at the FPCC was none other than James McCord. Is there evidence to support that? I believe the reading of Oswald's letters to Lee were acknowledged in the report Quigley made in N.O., and were attributed to a "reliable informant tells us" or some such thing. It's impossible not to take from this that the FBI was very interested in Oswald and his activities. BTW, thanks for posting the info on Lee. With that info and Harry's description of Lee, it sounds like he was not the same guy who scuffled with Ruby. The two Vincent Lees is apparently just another one of those coinkydinks.

Not the same man.

Mr. Katzenbach discussed his actions when he testified before the HSCA. He is actually fairly credible. He was under pressure by the state department to shut down speculation so that LBJ could get on with the business of conducting foreign affairs. He claimed that the letter he wrote recommending the WC immediately rubber-stamp the FBI's report was in fact prepared by the FBI and that he just signed his name. He also admits that Bobby Kennedy never restricted the use of the autopsy photos. Overall, he comes across more like a BOZO than a conspirator.

I have the book and have cited it as a source several times................ I haven't fully read it, but found it worthwhile because it confirmed a few things I never would have suspected Shackley would admit. A few things come to mind... He admits that the anti-Castro Cubans running infiltration teams into Cuba were running drugs back out. He claims to have stopped it. This raises the question of what the real objective was of these men, particularly those with mob ties like Sturgis. He claims that Second Naval Guerrilla or whatever you wanna call it--a second invasion--was designed to build Artime up in the eyes of Cubans. The CIA knew word of the pending invasion would spread to Cuba. They were hoping this would help to re-invigorate the Cuban underground, without which a second invasion would be pointless. Since the Cuban people never rose up, the second invasion was NEVER actually scheduled. Instead, they kept it hovering in the distance like Bugliosi's book on JFK. He admits that Air America was used by opium dealers on occasion to bring their crops to market. Once again, he claims to have put a stop to it. He acknowledges however that the U.S.' allies in Laos were mostly drug-lords, and it would have been detrimental for the greater fight against communism to try and change their way of life. While the book doesn't dish the dirt one might hope for, it comes across as being fairly honest. Sort of like Bissell's book. Not as smug as Helms'.

Stephen, perhaps I need to reread the Northwoods material, but I interpreted this as being a fake casualty list. If they were willing to kill people on a ship, why go to such lengths to fake a plane crash?

Harry, I was wondering if you knew of Lee's background. He was asked fewer background questions than any other witness, basically none. There was a union man named Vincent Lee who feuded with Ruby in the fifties. I'm wondering if this wasn't the same man, and that's why the WC avoided his past. This is one of those nagging questions that should be easy to clear up, but isn't. Any help appreciated.

I agree that the plots were very cold, but I took from the simulated airline crashes proposed, and the details worked out on how to fake such crashes, that there was to be no loss of American life. If a few Cubans drowned that was their problem, and ultimately Castro's responsibility. After all, we were the state sponsoring terrorism at the time so why be hypocrites about it? You may be right about the JCS. I recall reading that JFK forced many of his Missile Crisis adversaries out over the next year, but I can't recall exactlly who. If someone could post a list of JCS in 61 and compare it to one from 63 it would prove helpful. I'll see if I can find them when I have more time.

I believe there was a large turnover of the JCS between the BOP and the assassination. How many of the men who signed off on Northwoods were even in the government when Kennedy was killed? While I think Northwoods is important in establishing that a simulated assassination attempt on Kennedy is something the JCS would undoubtedly have contemplated, I don't think it can be used to show that these same men used these tactics to actually kill Kennedy. If you read the Northwoods documents, you'll find that they are mostly bloodless, in that almost all the plans call for faking the deaths of people and blaming Castro, and not actually killing people. The documents are incredibly damaging, in that they reveal an utter lack of conscience by the American military when it comes to deceiving the American people and the world as to the actuall causes of war, but they are not the blueprint of an assassination of an American president. Of course, this raises the possibility of a scenario whereby there was supposed to be a simulated assassination ATTEMPT, but that someone in the system turned it around. This may have been what Phillips alluded to towards the end.

As I recall, Ayers mentioned in his book that Johnny Rosselli was called "Colonel" by the men working with him and that he had his own swift boat and assault team with which to conduct raids. One piece of info that's never been developed that could be a real find is the name of the men who worked with Rosselli in his swift boat. As many here know, men under fire develop a loyalty to each other beyond their loyalty to a cause. It could very well be that Rosselli's men developed a loyalty to him beyond their loyalty to the President, and were quite willing to assist him when he was ordered to kill Kennedy.

Tim, in one of your typical disinformation moves you blame Ron for this bad joke when in fact the joke was my own. Now if you will finally admit your sins and explain why Karl Rove wants to blame Ron for my bad joke, we'll start reading your posts again. (THIS IS A JOKE.)

The "one of your guys did it" line was almost positively a rushed and tortured statement by Bobby upon learning of Oswald's pro-Castro Cuban background. Bobby's inititial instincts seem to have been that the CIA and anti-Castro Cubans were behind the assassination, and it seems he suspected Oswald's role in the FPCC was as an agent-provocateur. The speculation that Bobby recognized Oswald from some camp is ludicrous. I mean, would you recognize someone as white bread as Oswald if you'd seen him at a grocery store six months ago? No way, Jose. While it's pretty clear that Artime's army was penetrated by one of Castro's men, the speculation that Artime himself was working for Castro is equally ludicrous. The man was one of the leaders of Brigade 2506. He fought at the Bay of Pigs. He was captured in the swamps. He was imprisoned. A lot of the "Castro did it" theories can be linked back to disinformation created by men surrounding him, quite possible under the direction of Phillips and/or Hunt. He's about as likely a Castro agent as Tim Gratz.

As for Anderson's relationship to the Castro assassination plots and the Kennedy assassination, much has been written on the Suite 8F thread.

Robert, I was under the impression Segretti was a recent hire by Chapin, an old pal from college. Several times you've mentioned that Segretti and Rove had an ongoing relationship that preceded Tim's involvement. I'm curious where you got this. I don't particularly doubt it, but am just trying to educate myself should I decide to repeat this information. And Tim, I've also forgotten the CIA operative who opposed the assassination attempts. and lost his job as a result You can find his name, however, in Trento's Secret History. Look up Tracy Barnes and read about a meeting where Barnes proposes a cover company, and someone at the meeting mocks him. I think his name was Robert ----? Anyhow, if I was near my books I'd let you know.

These questions about Felt and Bannister and whether they knew each other might be of significance. There is one resource that might be used to discover some of these answers. I believe there was at one time a magazine or newsletter entitled Grapevine, written by and for ex-FBI agents. I think Robert Maheu and Jim Garrison have mentioned its existence. If someone could look through its contents circa-1962-1965 it might prove interesting. We might find that Maheu, Banister and Harvey all attended a reunion, or something like that. If anyone knows where to find these, I'd be interested if no one else is.

If memory serves that's Rolando Cubela and a young Idi Amin.

Tim, you've made several comments of late regarding Christians impying Christians wouldn't kill Kennedy or some such thing. Au contraire, it's not exactly a secret that a good deal of the American hatred for communism came from its Christian leaders. As a result, those who fought communism the hardest and at the greatest risk, including those who risked their lives to kill Kennedy, if one believes as much, almost certainly believed they were doing "God's work." Let's not forget that the innermost circles of the CIA called themselves the "Knights Templar." This wasn't an accident. About a year ago, I found in a Goodwill junk heap a book from the early sixties put out by a Christian organization, filled with speeches made by former Secretary of State and cold war architect John Foster Dulles to various churches over the years. These speeches reveal quite clearly that the over-riding theme of post WW2 American foreign policy was the spread of Christianity, and that our anti-communism was in large part a reaction to communism's antagonism towards Christianity. I believe a lot of those on this forum miss this important fact. While the love of money may be the root of all evil, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, the desperate desire for salvation kills more people than greed for power and greed for money. Let's call it God-lust. God-lust kills. And in the last milennium more have died from Christian God-lust than of any other variety. If Kennedy was killed by almost anyone other than the mob or LBJ, there is reason to supect that whoever did it believed God was on their side. The Crusades continue. I'd be willing to bet that hidden away in the White House's plans for Iraq is a plan to introduce Christian ministries and organizations into Baghdad. It's God's will, you know.

This Angleton quote is a reference to Operation Paperclip and Dulles' ties to the Nazis. Angleton was purportedly given the job of chief spy-hunter on the condition he would not look too closely at the Nazi ties of many of the U.S.' top spies. Paperclip was of course the Dulles-led operation to give Hitler's top spies amnesty for their war crimes, in exchange for their joining forces with U.S. and British intelligence against the KGB.

In Tony Summers' book, he investigated rumors that Nixon was tied to Lansky, via a piece of the action on the Paradise Island toll bridge in the Bahamas, and found a lot of evidence indicating this was so. In Giancana's daughter's book, she discusses a fling she had with Bebe Rebozo, supposedly without his knowing her true identity. Nixon's long-time campaign strategist, Murray Chotiner, reportedly had mob ties. Nixon commuted Hoffa's sentence, but inserted a secret condition that Hoffa couldn't return to union activity, which allowed Fat Frank Fitzsimmons and the mob to retain total control of the Teamsters. There is much to indicate Nixon's involvement with the mob.

I believe it's been established that Greer put on the brakes when he turned to look back at Kennedy. The various films confirm that the limousine slowed but did not stop. What confused so many I believe is that the motorcyclists to Kennedy's right slammed on their brakes and pulled over after the head shot.

Colson was the one who put the pressure on Hunt and Magruder to perform the break-in. He has never publicly admitted his responsibility and has instead tried to blame the CIA whenever possible. Nothing he says or does surprises me.

There was a guy who stole the Mona Lisa and got stuck with it. It turned out he was hired to steal the Mona Lisa by a master forger who turned around and sold his FORGERIES to a number of selfish and wealthy SUCKERS. Why sell one stolen Mona Lisa he figured, when you can sell a number of them to people who could never rat you out. Anyhow, I've wondered if something like this didn't happen in Dealey. Some smart S.O.B. (a Maheu-type) used his CIA connections to get a number of Hughes, Hunt, Marcello, Giancana, Hoffa, and Lansky types to pay him to whack Kennedy, with none of them knowing of the other's involvement. I don't know if this is what happened, but it would have worked.

Pat, What would be the purpose of such a shot? I know they wanted to draw attention to that location. But why not make it loud and shoot to kill? Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you're forgetting something, Ron. The shooter wan't Oswald. They had to make sure the real shooter escaped. They wanted the sniper's nest to be discovered after the event, not during the event. They'd probably hoped the first shot would kill Kennedy, and that the other shots wouldn't be necessary. But, as Al and others have pointed out, a bullet fired from a subsonic cartridge behaves slightly different than normal. In this case, the handload may have used too little gunpowder. As a result, the bullet only pierced Kennedy's back. If the first shot was a normal load it would have done a lot more damage. Unless you're willing to believe that the back wound did in fact lead directly to Kennedy's neck, without piercing his lung or nickiing his spine, then I think the shallow back wound is best explained by a reduced-charge.

Or alternately, they thought they were working for the mob but were really working for the CIA. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Or were working directly for the mob, thought they were working indirectly for the CIA, but were really working for Howard Hughes.

I can't believe Shanet brought this up again. I thought he would be happy that Tim had finally quieted down. Anyhow, to throw in on this, in Ted Shackley's memoirs he notes that when he took over JMWAVE he discovered that a lot of the anti-Castro Cubans who were making raids on Cuba were using their raids as a cover to smuggle drugs into the U.S. He claims to have shut this down. I believe this is significant. This means to me that these supposed Cuban patriots were primarily working for Trafficante/Lansky and not the CIA. The Frank Sturgis/Lorenz attempt on Castro came way before the CIA had even gave Maheu the pills, but shortly after the word was out that Lansky had put a million bucks on the Beard's head. So from this one can gather that Sturgis was at the vortex of mob/CIA involvement, and was using his connections to Barker and the CIA to conduct mob activity. Through men like Sturgis, Rosselli and Morales, it could very well be that the assassins thought they were working for the CIA, but were really working for the mob. A wilderness of mirrors.

Stephen, I believe that is exactly what happened. I believe that the first shot was fired from the TSBD, and was subsonic. This hit Kennedy in the back. A second later a burst of silenced gunfire from the Dal-Tex hit Kennedy near the EOP, went down his neck and hit Connally. It's possible as well that a second round from this burst hit Connally. Then, a non-silenced, non-subsonic round fired from the TSBD hit Kennedy atop his head and killed him. A second later a loud noise erupted from behind the arcade, quite possibly a cherry bomb or m-80. This created mass confusion and allowed the shooters to get away. From what I've read on silencers they effectively remove 12-20 db from the sound of the rifle. This would reduce the sound of a rifle fired from the upper floors of the Dal-tex to the equivalent of a loud shout, which would be lost amidst the sounds of the motorcade to all but a few. Not coincidentally, there is an area right under the Dal-Tex where almost half of the witnesses heard four shots. This is significant in light of the fact that not one of the 40 or so witnesses a block away at Houston and Main, who were further from the original shots and much more likely to be confused by echoes, reported four shots. It's also significant, and perhaps telling, that, while dozens of witnesses from the courts building and TSBD were questioned, not one witness standing inside or in front of the Dal-Tex building was questioned by the WC, or even by the DPD, near as I can figure. It's almost as if someone said "that's the building where that Braden character was arrested, let's not bother to ask what anyone from that building saw or heard." It's like they didn't want to know.