James R Gordon

James Gordon #457--Thanks for that frame of Z190. I was citing Z190 by memory; for some reason, I thought that had been determined as the frame when JFK was first struck. But he is way back, and hasn't started to reach for his face or throat. He comes out from behind the sign about Z225, and has just got his hands up to his collar-bone. So he was hit around Z220. Is that a good approximation? 30 more frames down Elm is about 1 2/3 seconds. Travelling at 10 mph, about 15 ft / sec, so that would be about 25 feet farther down Elm from Z190? Thanks for helping me refine this.

Thanks a lot for that great diagram. I'm still checking it out.

Roy,

The map is not mine but Don Roberdeau's map. Duncan's keep a live link to the most recent update. If this link does not take you to the map you will find it in Dealey Plaza approx page 3.

Link to Don Roberdeau's map:-

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=31&pos=47

220 is a reasonable point of impact. I sometimes think it might be a little earlier. I diid write an article on JFK's wounds some time ago. You might want to look at it.

https://www.transferbigfiles.com/0a2eb94b-dd89-4cfc-b2a1-183dc0b76004/3L2Gk9o_L9ynaF0r1eF9cQ2

James.

From James Gordon:

"Second:- At this point JFK is not looking forward but 90º to his right. That means the trachea entrance point has also moved to the right and is now no longer visible."

Hi James

I quite agree with you regarding the difficulties of a frontal throat shot exiting out the back wound, mainly because there is no vantage point in front of the limo high enough to account for the steep downward angle of such a wound.

However, regarding the trachea, there is an oddity about it that many people are unaware of. I have had this argument many times with believers of the SB.

While JFK is turned to his right, as you point out, it is his head that is severely turned, while his body and shoulders remain facing almost forward. Believe it or not, the trachea, at the level of the throat wound, does not turn with the head but, rather, remains in the same position.

This is critical in the case of the SBT but is a rather moot point in this case, as I believe even turning JFK's body 5° to the right would eliminate anything south of the TUP as a source for the bullet.

Yes Robert I agree. I had forgotten this point. I checked my own trachea as I turned to the right and it remained as it was.

Tom,

Abebooks have copies of the Best Evidence for a few dollars. They even have hard back copies. Might be worth a look. I got an excellent hard back copy there.

James

Thanks Barry linking members to the DPUK archive.

The present editors intend to republish the entire archive. The present Journal is published in a full colour 40 page booklet. In this edition the editors were offered so many first class articles that the November 2015 volume includes the 40 page print journal and 3 digital volumes devoted to the work of three researchers.

Here is a image of the front page of the first current colour volume.

The journal is printed in 4 page booklet form but to allow members an indication of what they are missing not being members of DPUK her is a sequential pdf of our first colour version.

The covers refers to this volume being Part 1. Part 2 was an overflow digital copy and Part 3 was an Interactive PDF with copies of past presentations at Canterbury including Joan Mellon's presentation.

https://www.transferbigfiles.com/7a934867-3c88-4886-a7da-357c6b09c2b0/GvUyNZAcTaEVUb6F4fJ11w2

James

Pamela Brown may be able to help you Ramon. I think you can email her here.

That's a great resource! I have tons of questions for those folks.

This is question number 1, for Sherry Fiester:

"Will you place all the material (scenes, models, files), etc. used in the A Coup in Camelot movie on the Internet so they become property of The People"?

"Otherwise you are no better than Dale Myers".

"How come some fellow named Ramon F Herrera seems to be the only one with that policy and formal promise"?

I guess we could ask the same question/request from Mr. Oliver Stone.

-Ramon

I am not sure that Sherry is able to provide such material. From what I can see she is not the Producer or Director but a contributor. I am not sure she is responsible for the film.

I see that in the US it may be possible to see and - maybe even - down load the film. This address appears to be streaming the film. However it is not available to the UK.

http://www.fulltv.tv/movies/a-coup-in-camelot-2014.html

Thanks, Gordon:

A few days ago, I sent an e-mail to Stephen Goetsch, who directed me to his 3D animator, James Neal.

http://www.jamesnealfilms.com/

Thanks for the link, too!!

I am convinced that if the movie producers join and lead this initiative, the movie may be forgotten, but the 3D Dealey Plaza Model will remain forever. There is a requirement, however, it must be open, available to all.

-Ramon

I saw a few frames of the 3D animation. It is not bad, but it is not perfect. The model I could really do with is Dale Myers. He may have played fast and loose with his data interpretation, but his animation skills are the bench mark for others to strive for.

As for a Coup in Camelot, Why I would like to get my hands on this film is the resolution of the images. For the first time we may get much more information from the images.

Pamela Brown may be able to help you Ramon. I think you can email her here.

That's a great resource! I have tons of questions for those folks.

This is question number 1, for Sherry Fiester:

"Will you place all the material (scenes, models, files), etc. used in the A Coup in Camelot movie on the Internet so they become property of The People"?

"Otherwise you are no better than Dale Myers".

"How come some fellow named Ramon F Herrera seems to be the only one with that policy and formal promise"?

I guess we could ask the same question/request from Mr. Oliver Stone.

-Ramon

I am not sure that Sherry is able to provide such material. From what I can see she is not the Producer or Director but a contributor. I am not sure she is responsible for the film.

I see that in the US it may be possible to see and - maybe even - down load the film. This address appears to be streaming the film. However it is not available to the UK.

http://www.fulltv.tv/movies/a-coup-in-camelot-2014.html

Sandy #444: "I'd like to see a diagram..." I can draw one on paper. As for getting it on here, well, I don't know how to get a link or photo on here. I'll probably be able to learn pretty soon. My son who runs IBM is supposed to come over this weekend. I may be the first guy kicked off Ed Forum for a sub-human lack of computer skills. But I'm a heck of a typist.

Ray # 445: GREAT view of SGK. I've never seen a better one. It looks plenty high up enough to do what I'm suggesting---clear the windshield and roll-bar. Do you know how soon after the shooting the top photo was taken? I wish that exact same photo had been taken at Z190. Major muchos gracias.

Chris #453:Great pics of the back seat. OK, in the Fox video (the beginning and end show it best) you see how those big buttons break up the back into quarters? In the quarter JFK was sitting against, there are three dimples/irregularities in the navy blue (almost black) top. Facing it as if that quarter section were a ruler, there's a lone one about 3" over, and then two together at about 8,9,10'. Those two look like a good candidate for this: The supersonic, small mass .223 went into his neck at a 10-15* angle, nicked a back rib between 3 and 4, so that the bullet yawed some, went out his back and clothes (much of the momentum gone by now) The messed-up bullet (I believe that's the technical term, right Bob P.?) then didn't have piercing power. And since K was pressed against the tough leather, pressing whatever cushion there was behind it, the slug bounced back and somehow got tangled in his clothes.

OK, how it's possible that SS behind him saw the wound, the torn jacket (so that it was above the back seat), yet the bullet itself didn't strike above the back seat---They were looking down on JFK, and the bullet, after striking a rib and ripping the jacket, was on a much steeper downward path than when it started out. Quod esat demonstratum.

Roy with reference to Post 444.

The POV of Zapruder compared to the reality of where Z 190 is on Elm Street are two very different points.

For Zapruder it may look as if the car is passing behind the Stemmons sign. Actually that is not the case. The car is 54 feet above the sign. Actually it will be three seconds in Zapruder film time before the car actually reaches where Zapruder suggests it is.

As regards Z190:-

Aside from the distance from the Grassy knoll to where JFK is this is a very problematic notion.

First:- opposite and facing JFK are around 12 people. Many are at the edge of the pavement and are only around 12 feet from him. Do you feel they would be unaware that he had just been shot in the throat.

Second:- At this point JFK is not looking forward but 90º to his right. That means the trachea entrance point has also moved to the right and is now no longer visible.

Third:- Even if the witnesses would not be aware of the shot AND even if it was possible to strike the correct point, the trajectory analysis would require the bullet to drive leftward and certainly smash through Kennedy's spine.

James

Chris,

I absolutely agree. Such an image makes clear that there can be no doubt whether the seat is raised or not.

James

Tom Neal #415: "source for this exchange" between Kennedy and Greer at Love Field before the parade --- I'm almost positive it's in the generally execrable Jim Bishop's The Day K Was Shot, pronounced "shat" in snotty Eastern Establishment-ese. I have my heavily annotated copy right in front of me, and since the book is strictly chrono, it would be relatively easy to find it. Ten minutes tops, 10 min. I don't have at the moment. Within a couple hours though, I promise I'll get that to you. I feel bad that I've been so slack on sources while you guys are like walking reference books.

Bishop never missed an opportunity to give a detail to point out what he thought illustrated JFK's patrician hypersensitivity. My favorite of his that points out the opposite---when K arrived at the FT. Worth hotel around midnight, the air-conditioning was going full-blast. Mind you, this was a month before winter solstice and after midnight. I imagine it was about 55* in that room. So Jack "snapped" to turn the damn thing off and open a window. That man was Mother Nature's Son.

James #416: "pictures of the procession from Love Field...back seat... was always in the down position." Yes. President Kennedy ordered the seat lowered as soon as he first sat in it. That Kennedy was sensitive to Connally's feelings--I doubt it. The man was a professiona satirist. As Jonathan Swift noted, "Satire is the refuge of a pure heart."

Roy,

Chris Davidson has pointed you to a movie clip that shows the car and the position of the back seat prior to him entering.

Here two images from that sequence that a fellow researcher gave me some time ago.

In post 442 you mentioned that "President Kennedy ordered the seat lowered as soon as he first sat in it." Although I consider myself a fellow member in this conversation, I am also an administrator. We administrators take very seriously that this forum is referred to as the "Education" forum and we jealously guard the integrity of this forum. Put another way we expect controversial statements - of the kind you have just posted - to be backed up so those not so deeply versed in the case know where to go to see how such a statement can be made. Chris Davidson - in post 423 - has shown you reason why such a statement is incorrect and I have just posted two images that contradict your statement. We administrators do not and will not accept assertion to be dressed up as fact as a fellow member discovered very recently. We - the administrators - will not accept controversial statements - of the kind I have highlighted - to be made without clear references. I expect you to supply - to the forum membership - the reference to the statement "President Kennedy ordered the seat lowered as soon as he first sat in it."

Tom,

There is no reference to this. It is just one of the many speculations that Roy makes in his post 414.

Although the back seat could indeed be raised, pictures of the procession from Love Field to Dealey Plaza make clear that the back seat was never raised and was always in the down position.

Also Connally was taller than Kennedy - though not by much. The bucket seats however were lower - I believe by around 2 inches. If you look at images of the procession you will see that JFK is still seated a little higher than Connally - though again not by much.

The idea that the Secret Service would condone the back seat being raised when processing through Dallas is preposterous. And the idea that the only reason the seat was not raised was because Kennedy was sensitive to Connally's feelings is an idea that has little credence.

Sandy,

Clearly first hand knowledge of the Plaza is best, but an acquaintance with the geography and topology of the Plaza can be sufficient. See Image below:-

What many people do not realise is that the Plaza is a mirror image. The North and South dimensions are the same.

a) From the wall of the TSBD to the edge of the North pavement of main street is 300ft.

From the wall of the Post office to the edge of the South pavement of main street is 300ft

c) All the streets - outside the plaza - are 60ft wide. Inside the plaza they are 40ft wide.

d) From the wall of the post office to the wall of the TSBD is 660ft.

e) Elm and Commerce Streets from the bottom of the TUP to the edge of the western pavement on Houston street are 495ft. People have been known to comment that Commerce is longer: it is not.

d) Main Street from the bottom of the TUP to the edge of the western pavement on Houston street is 425ft.

The height of Houston street is 429.66ft above sea level. If we take that as 0 we can then do comparatives.

e) the bottom of the TUP is approximately 24ft lower than Houston. 404.91 HASL

f) The total height of the TUP including the handrail is 1ft lower than Houston street. 428 HASL

g) The North Car Park is 3ft lower than Houston Street. 426 HASL.

h) North and South Car Parks are the same height.

i) The track across the TUP is 2ft lower than that of the car parks

j) To seriously calculate trajectories and their angles you need to know the height of Elm Street at any specific point. The best source for that is Robert West's survey of Dealey Plaza along all his calculations of various trajectories.

k) Elm Street curves throughout its length. Although the car essentially drove down the middle of the street it also turned with the road. So at any Zapruder point you need to know what was the height of Elm street at that point; what was the curvature of the road and what implications of the position of the occupants to the source of your shot. These points have major implications as to whether any shot could be successful.

I suggest you need to know these details if you are to do any serious calculations and especially trajectory angles.

Sandy,

There is a fatal error with your throat-entrance-back-exit idea.

You may be right that such a rotation may give you a clearance - though I doubt it. Robert is on very sound ground pointing out the impediment of the spinal column.

You doubt a clearance based on what? Did you actually rotate the 3D skeleton I linked to and look for one? If so, did you not see the clearance? I did.

Actually I was being polite. I am not convinced with your understanding of the geometry of human anatomy.

However there is a further impediment. If the source of the shot is from the north of the plaza then the direction of the bullet would be towards the left side of the body and not the right. Only a shot from the south of the plaza would allow the bullet to continue in a rightward direction.

We haven't even discussed the direction of the trajectory yet. Roy Wieselquist, who was the one to bring this theory up, said that he believes the shot came from the south. For this theory to work, there needs to be a "tall" building in that direction. I believe Roy has one in mind.

There is no building in the south plaza that would could be a source for such a shot. If Roy Wieselquist has the Post Office in mind that is just just complete nonsense and displays a complete misunderstanding of Dealey Plaza topology. Sherry Fiester “Enemy of the Truth” did promote a theory whereby the shooter was firing from the TUP. She is a highly qualified forensic scientist who has published on the JFK assassination. However - from my perspective - she lacks an understanding of trajectory analysis. I do not criticise her blood splatter analysis: I am not qualified to do so.

However firing from the south towards the car has an impediment that Sherry was never prepared - in the conversations that we had - to accept. In firing towards the car required that the shot - or shots - now had to avoid Bill Greer, Nellie Connally and John Connally. The danger presented to these individuals was created by the fact the JFK had moved his position and was limiting any possible successful through shot. One of Sherry's possible locations required the bullet to pass through Jackie Kennedy. At Z 312 Jackie is covering JFK if you are firing towards the car from the TUP.

There was even the issue of elevation and whether there was sufficient elevation to even make such a shot. What needs to be borne in mind is that a shot being fired from the north of the plaza then the the car is not an obstacle. However a shot from the south then the car becomes a severe obstacle. Where - to some degree - a shot from the north of the plaza presents an open target. But a shot from the south presents a closed target. Before reaching the target the shot has to first pass through the windscreen and then find a passage between the other occupants - and obstacles such as the divider between the Secret Service and the passengers - and the target JFK. It is just not possible.

And that does not even account for the fact that no witness claimed shots flew the central grassy area in the plaza where witnesses were positioned and were even taking pictures.

Put simply. Say the source of the shot was from the GK then - even if it actually avoided the spine - it would exit on JFK's left side and not his right side.

Yes, of course.

Sandy,

There is a fatal error with your throat-entrance-back-exit idea.

You may be right that such a rotation may give you a clearance - though I doubt it. Robert is on very sound ground pointing out the impediment of the spinal column.

However there is a further impediment. If the source of the shot is from the north of the plaza then the direction of the bullet would be towards the left side of the body and not the right. Only a shot from the south of the plaza would allow the bullet to continue in a rightward direction.

Put simply. Say the source of the shot was from the GK then - even if it actually avoided the spine - it would exit on JFK's left side and not his right side.

This copy of 313 - that was given to me by Chris Davidson - allowed me to zoom into the head explosion.

Chris Davidson's copy of 313 is the best I have which allows me to look at the detail of the head explosion.

It is not possible to distinguish what is bone matter and what is brain matter.

But this copy certainly shows matter flying in all directions.

Robert,

I am not adjusting my position. When I entered this conversation it was to suggest that Pat Speer was more correct than you.

I am not able to explain the anomalies with regard to that skeleton. The 3D model whose image I used, makes clear that the "superior angle" is indeed close to T1.

This model is very accurate.

I have no intention of entering into an endless conversation. If you are insistent that you are right - no problem. All I am saying is - from my perspective - it appears to me that Pat was more correct than you.

Robert,

I have no idea of the cause of it looking like that.

I should have added. That although it is a real skeleton it has also been rebuilt. That might be the reason.

James.

Robert,

If you are talking about the skeleton in post 271, that is a real skeleton.

It may be that adjustments had to be made when it was constructed.

James.

Robert,

I am not sure what you are getting at about the right scapula?

James.

Robert,

It is not the Scapula position but the position of the Superior angle. You cannot tell where the position of the superior angle is?

The body of the Scapula is indeed well below T1. However the Superior angle should be quite close.

James.

Robert,

I use an app called “Anatronica.”I find it very helpful and mostly accurate.

My main textual reference book is “Principles of Anatomy & Physiology” by Gerrard J Tortora and Bryan Derrickson.

The two images below from “The Brief Atlas of the Skeleton” that comes with the set.

Link to Skeleton:-

The Skeleton – which is clearly a real skeleton – suggests that the “superior angle” may actually be closer to T1 than T2

As regards the Scapular, from what I can see your “superior angle” does seem a little flat and not as sharp as it should be. That may account for some of the difference. Also the atlas appears to use real bones to describe an anatomical feature. Your images appear to be drawings.

Link to Scapular:-

Robert,

I am sorry, but Pat's diagram is much more accurate in describing the placement of T1 than your diagram.

In your diagram the Superior angle is between T3 and T2 when actually it is between T2 and T1. Essentially T1 is just above the Superior angle.

Chris,

The only moment I could get to replicate the Connally wound was Z 230.

However the source was not the Oswald window but but the 6th floor west window.

Chris,

Such a source is still way off.

Let me explain. Could Connally be hit from that window or indeed the Oswald window. The answer is yes.

Would a strike from those sources replicate the angle of the bullet through Connally's body the answer is no.

It is not a matter whether Connally could be hit. It is a matter could he be hit AND could that strike replicate the wound he received

In this model the car is at Z223/4. One of the yellow lines shows that JFK could be struck. The other arrow which has followed the angle over Connally's 5th rib and been projected back. As you can see it sources somewhere between the Daltext and the Records building. Although it would still fail, had Connally been sitting facing forward it would be much closer.

Also note the angle of Connally's wound is much steeper. That is a consequence of following the path of the 5th rib.

Robert,

If you are suggesting that the source of the shot is the TSBD, then both:-

a) The angle Connally has turned at that point approx 35-40º

AND

The angle of the bullet through the body.

Prohibits it.

Use a map of the plaza. Place Connally as he is positioned in the car and then draw a line along the angle of the 5th rib and project backwards.

That way you will see the source is somewhere between the Daltex and the Records building

Robert,

It is clear that we disagree on more than I realised.

I will comment on two points:-

a) You say the bullet did not go through Connally's jacket sleeve. You are wrong it did. I refer you to Robert Frazier's drawings of the Jacket and his comments on the damage he saw.

The trajectory of the bullet through Connally's body prohibits a shot at Z223/4 - which I assume you are suggesting. As I have pointed out many times before, the source of a shot at Connally at Z223/4 is somewhere between the DalTex building and The Records building. Looking at frames after 223/4 we see Connally's hand rise with his palm towards his chest. The injury Connally sustained could not be achieved if his palm was towards his chest.