Bill Miller

According to the Life magazine article, Connally believed he was struck at frame 234.

There is a big difference between "pushing the brake pedal to the floor" and using the brake pedal as a brace as "you push it to the floor".

Greer's Z film action's speak louder than his words.

chris

To start with ... Connally said that he could see he was shot in Z234 ... Connally didn't have a stabilized in motion view to study and go by. I did not understand him to say which frame the bullet had struck him.

I thought everyone knew how to see peoples testimonies on the assassination ... here is the link http://mcadams.posc....du/russ/wit.htm You will find Greer's report and testimony there.

And Green never put the brake pedal to the floor on Elm Street in my view for if he had done so - the car would have come to a dead halt.

Bill

Bill,

Greer infers he hears 2 motorcycle noises, then looks back.

He also refers to a second shot. Where is his description of the first shot?

He makes no distinction between noises and shots.

In other words, at some point, is one of the cycle noises considered a shot by Greer?

Chris ... here is what Greer said ... he calls the shots "noises" as if he didn't know they were shots at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." (end)

It seems pretty clear to me what he has said.

Must be the one that hits Connally around 240, which would cause his reaction as seen on the Z film.

Greer knows it's a shot that hits Connally, so does everyone else in the plaza and he reacts accordingly.

One shot hit Connally in the back right shoulder between Z223 and Z224. The transfer of energy drives the Governor's shoulder forward and downward which as Nellie described it, 'John buckled and recoiled to his right'. So there was the hit to Connally's shoulder followed by his reaction of recoiling to his right.

If you replace Greer's description of the "acceleration pedal to the floor" with "brake pedal to the floor", you see what is seen in Z with regards to a bracing affect.

chris

Chris ... if you go out for a drive today ... while going about 5 to 10 mph ... press your brake pedal to the floor and see if you don't come to an abrupt halt. The car slows by lighting touching the brake pedal ... if it doesn't then I'd check the fluid and/or get new brakes.

Bill

Greer may or may not have been reacting to a shot when he repositioned his hand on the steering wheel, but no-one in the limo exhibited startle reactions then.

We are not looking for reactions here. We are looking for startle reactions.

Harris,

I thought we were looking for the truth ... even Greer indicates that he didn't recognize the shots as such and thought they were cycle backfires, so nothing to be startled about there. However, he did say that upon hearing the second noise that he turned and saw Connally looking like he was starting to fall.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

Does it not make sense that Greer is trying to understand just what is wrong in the back while also making sure he doesn't run up on the car ahead of him which he guessed to be about 50'. (For reference ... the distance from the catcher to the pitcher's mound in baseball is 60')

Bill

Actually Chris.

Looking at this frame, and his body position, i think you may be right.

In your GIF Greer does look like he is pushing his body back into the seat, in a similar way as you would if your leg were extended pushing on the brake pedal. ?

This is as close as i can get to the "hand on the steering wheel" frames.

Had Greer of been breaking hard enough to be pushing himself back into the seat, then wouldn't one expect the car to come to an abrupt decrease in speed all at once? I always thought Greer was slowing down so he could look rearward and not have to worry about running up on the car ahead of him.

In post #354 that Robin made ... Connally appears to be yelling out and my impression is that Greer and Kellerman were looking to see what the commotion was about.

In Greer's report he said, "The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here."

Greer's Commission testimony:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

So much for Harris thinking it bunk that no one would have not recognized gunshots because of motorcycle backfires. It appears that at least Nellie and Greer has mentioned this.

Bill

What are you going to use to gauge the slowdown Chris? The only thing you have to compare the speed to is the blurred background.

If there is enough film to use ... something like the Nix film would be better.

Bill

Another video presenting the same falsehoods will not change the fact that you are wrong.

Wasn't it Joseph Goebbels who said 'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, or just make another video, people will eventually come to believe it'

No truer words were ever spoken, Duncan. Harris reminds me of someone who cannot understand why 4 + 4 does not equal 44. He appears to just come up with a claim first and then looks for ways of selling it.

Has anyone looked to see if he has removed any videos that claimed that JFK made a fist because he was hit in the head with asphalt as he rode through the intersection of Houston and Elm or never smiled again after that turn? Would you be surprised that he hadn't ... I wouldn't be.

Bill Miller

Chris is right ... Connally is seen just after buckling over and he has started his recoil to the right. Then Connally started calling out they were all going to be killed - Jackie turns her attention to the Governor - and Greer appears to be reacting to the sudden disturbance. When taken as a whole it is very supportive of the Witnesses statements.

Below Nellie pulls her husband towards her and gets right up to his ear and tells him it will be alright ... then the kill shot to JFK. Considering the circumstances, I think the witnesses did well for the most part in sequencing the event. (click image to start animation)

Bill

Connally's head turn demonstrated for the Commission press cameras in real time ....

Bill Miller

Another Connally demonstration as just turns his head to his right ....

and another (see 4:20)

Bill Miller

OK Bill, so you think she was examining JFK at 228-229 through some kind of peripheral vision - right?

According to Robin, you and Duncan had some nasty fights before you came around to mending fences.

I suggest we do the same Bill, well perhaps not to such an extreme degree but at least to the point where instead of attacking each other, we attack the mystery of when Mrs. Connally heard that shot that she believed wounded her husband.

Duncan and I have had disagreements that led to long debates. I have always used illustrations and information, not excluding eventual sarcasm to make a point, but it was Duncan's position that I went after. As Duncan has said ... he learned from those experiences and later decided that some of his claims were erred. This so far is what separates Duncan from you.

I'm thinking that since we know these shots were loud as hell, it was not something she would just imagine. I think she really did hear that shot, don't you?

I'm thinking that some witnesses didn't recognize some shots as being shots and that is why some witnesses described hearing only two while others as many as six. I have explained that some witnesses depending on their location to the shots would not have heard them all and I explained how that came to be known. Nellie had said she heard a noise, but didn't know that it was a shot at first because she was use to hearing the noise from the cycles. Nellie has said that she heard the first shot (noise) and the second shot (noise) and was looking at her husband when it hit him. She adds that she saw her husband buckle over from being hit and she said he recoiled to his right.

I'm also thinking that we have three major clues to work with. First, we know this happened sometime after she looked back and saw JFK in distress, whether that happened at 229 or 258.

As was demonstrated with good enlargements - Nellie was looking in the direction of her husband when the first shot was fired as JFK was waving and smiling at Woodward and the women next to her. It has been offered as proof that Nellie offered more detail in another interview whereas she saw the President raise his hands to his face. Because Nellie was looking in the direction of her husband, and having rode in her seat in the replica car so to test her view for myself, I cannot dispute her having been able to see the President bringing his hands up to his face. That event in already in motion as JFK is coming out from behind the road sign at Z223/Z224.

And second, she said that when she heard that shot, she turned back to her husband and pulled him back to her.

Again you are not breaking it down as she said it. She said that upon hearing the second shot she must have been looking at her husband. She said she saw Connally buckle - then recoil to his right. These things took time to do and she has made it clear that she witnessed it. Then she pulled John back towards her and that is when your theory says she heard the shot and I totally disagree with your assessment based on the facts that I have previously stated.

Also, since we know that shot was "earshattering", and many times louder than required to startle folks, that it was bound to affect the others in the limo as well. Don't you agree?

One would be a fool to think they could assume how different people should react ... too many factors. Jackie appeared to be puzzled as to what was wrong with her husband. JFK was in no position to do anything other than react to be hit in the throat. Connally never even heard the shot that hit him, which is a reasonable statement considering the bullet travels faster than sound. Nellie seemed to be in shock as she watched the initial stages of the event unfold, which is also normal, especially when she wasn't sure at first what those noises were. This leaves Greer and Kellerman who in Altgens #6 they do not seem to be aware of what's happening either. It appears from the Zapruder film that Greer heard Connally raising hell and looked back twice to see what was going on. All these things Nellie said she saw unfold happened over several seconds before the head shot. Your faulty interpretation of this overlooks these things in my view.

My thinking is that we might be able to spot those things in the Zapruder film. Don't you agree Bill?

Do you see reactions like that in the film??

I believe that the things Nellie said she witnessed can be observed on the Zapruder film and I have detailed them. By Z286+ ... Nellie is already at the point in time where she pulled her husband back towards her. Below is more of a stabilized view of this ...

Bill Miller

Please stop evading my very simple question. I'll try again:

OK Bill, so you think she was examining JFK at 228-229 through some kind of peripheral vision - right?

Nellie said she saw JFK's hands come up to his face .... peripheral vision was one option ... another was her just looking at him with her eyes which I have said could be done without turning her head. She went on to say that she must have been looking at John because when she heard the second shot that she saw John buckle over and recoil to his right.

You can read it until your eyes fall out and it won't change .. nor will the other details she gave in the order that she remembered them. If you do not like what Nellie said ... get a Medium and see if you can talk to her from the grave and see if she'll change it for you.

I have laid the photographic record out in order as she described it and all those things she said she witnessed - Sorry!

Bill Miller

After all the things Nellie said she witnessed from her husband being shot - Nellie said, "I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together".

Heads being together as Nellie had said ....

Nellie: I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."

Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.

Bill Miller

OK Bill, so you think she was examining JFK at 228-229 through some kind of peripheral vision - right?

If you actually believe that then the next shot which she heard was still, the one that she believed, wounded her husband. Was it not?

"Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John."

You are forgetting what else she said .... She added that upon hearing that shot and it hitting her husband that he slumped and recoiled to his right ........... this is what you wrongfully leave out of the equation.

All these things Nellie said had come just before she reached out and pulled John back onto her. Connally being pulled back towards his wife ......

Bill Miller

Connally's head turn demonstrated for the Commission press cameras in real time ....

Bill Miller

Robert,

Please pay attention to Nellie saying that after she witnessed her husband being hit, then buckling over, then recoiling to his right, she then said how she reached out to him and pulled him back towards her before putting her head next to his. Nellie pulling her husband back to her can be seen below ....

Bill Miller

Z261 - Z295

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. I was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us,

Jack's Badge Man

Why do you waste bandwidth with all these unsupported assertions Bill?

Your new "haze" theory is just as ridiculous as Duncan's mythical boxes and that other character who said he saw a little man in the window.

The haze on the glass was mentioned a long time ago and I compared the darkness of the known open windows (no glass) in my responses. Do I need to go show that you are in error once again? Your recklessness in the allegations you make seem to be never ending.

Bill Miller/October 17, 2010: "Some logical and responsible cross referencing of images taken immediately following the assassination on your part would be a breath of fresh air to us. If you'd take the time to look at windows that are open, then you'd be forced to see that the opening is darker in open windows than windows that are closed and have glare on them. You might see the horizontal frame across the bottom of the pane."

Bill Miller/October 20, 2010: " Duke has reiterated what was said early on and that is the haze on the glass in A6 is noticeable and is not seen in the windows that were open. A logical conclusion can be drawn that if a window was broken and void of glass, then the broken out area would be dark like it appears in the obvious open windows. "

All I have to do is post the image and let people see for themselves. I don't need to post a thousand words of drivel.

And if all you have to do is post an image and allow people to see for themselves, then why have you responded with so much 'drivel' in this thread ... let the record be testimony to that as well.

Bill Miller

As for Miller and McCrae, anyone can see what they are doing and they tag team in other threads as well. I am not the only one to point that out.

Feel free to cite who the others are that you speak about, Harris. The archived record can be testimony to anything I have said about your claims ... I used careful step by step illustrations and statements to support what I believe to be true. I will continue to do the same in the future.

Bill Miller

As any honest researcher would agree, we need to discover when that "second shot" was fired that Nellie thought, had wounded her husband.

Robert ... I resent your constantly saying what an "honest" researcher would do ... the same could be said about you. I have said all I am going to say about this matter. Nellie said that she must have been looking at her husband when he was hit for she saw him slump and recoil to his right and all this has been laid out as to when that happened. The Connally's did all they could do in 1966 to better state the record so people wouldn't be left speculating about the event ... end of story! I knew well before that Life interview what the Connally's meant ... I had seen the re-enactment before the Commission press cameras and he said he had turned (his head) back to almost straight ahead when he felt the next shot hit him in the back. He buckled and recoiled to his right just as Nellie described seeing. That event is well documented on Zapruder's film and has occurred before Altgens took his #6 photo. By the way ... I believe that I recall that Nellie mentioned the sounds of the motorcycle backfires and how that played a part in what she thought the noises were at first ... something you said early on that couldn't have happened.

So believe what you want ... all I can say is that there must be some sort of heavy penalty hanging over your head to keep coming back and repeating the same old crap as if you say it enough times that I and others will just give up and go along with your claim. The "honest" remark just makes you look desperate in your attempt to sell your erred claim in my view.

Bill Miller

Connally before the press cameras demonstrating his look over his shoulder upon hearing the first shot. This is what Connally looked for at the Life Magazine Interview and determined that it occurred while he was behind the road sign. (The clip has been slowed down)

Enjoy it Robert!

Another look at JFK smiling and waving ... just for Robert Harris.

Bill Miller

Rolled up newspaper in hand? What ever it is seen through the windshield ... its connected to one of those women.

Bill, with all respect, here you are mistaken.

Lady 8 is wearing a kind of apron and not holding a newspaper.

best

Martin

If I can find a really good enlargement of Betzner, I will show you the woman with the newspaper. The Betnzer image posted here is not that great. I've gone back to Lancer to look for the thread, but it seems Lancer's site was not backed up and they have needlessly lost a lot - if not all - of the really good images that were posted there years ago. That is most unfortunate.

Bill

ROFLMAO!!!

I love how everyone on team Duncan has to believe or at least pretend to believe everything he says, no matter how ridiculous it is.

As for your blownup lo-res picture, thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with the hi rez stuff and believe what I see rather than what I'm told to see

Robert, are you confessing or talking about Duncan for you are always saying 'everyone' when claiming support for your claim .... If anyone wishes to check it out - its archived!

None of the images provided so far are quite as good as Josiah's hi-res scan. That is not to say it has not been shown, but when the size is lowered and then increased again, then it is nothing more than an enlargement of an image that lost some of its clarity during the lowering of its size only to increase it again. It would be better if people would just make small crops from the large file before decreasing its size for what ever reason. The clarity still remains with the cropped image until such a time it is enlarged again.

Now about your claim .... you were wrong about JFK making a fist, being struck in the face by debri, and no matter what quality image that has been shown so far ... the window has not been broken as you originally claimed. This was obvious when comparing it to windows that were open and showed a much darker opening. The reason for this is quite simple to understand ... the windows have a haze on the glass whereas an open or missing window is void of haze. So whether the blinds were cut, broken, or spliced is irrelevant because the window is closed and the glass shows no sign of being broken. So unless you have something else to add, then your claim has already gotten more attention than it deserved in my view. I think all you have left is to continue to make ignorant off-the-cuff irrelevant remarks about Duncan as if that somehow will help your erred claim. It doesn't!

Bill Miller

I don't know how high the resolution was on these Thompson Altgens enlargements, but it wasn't hard to find them on Lancer's site ...

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=3&topic_id=82475&mesg_id=82475&listing_type=search

Bill.

A number of times in this thread you have reffered to a lady seen in Altgens 6 holding a "rolled up newspaper"

In Martin's composite below, can you point out which woman in the Croft photo you believe to be holding the rolled up newspaper in her hand ?

Look for this woman in Betzner's photo and you will see her arm raised and holding that rolled up newspaper.