Denis Pointing

Personally, I think logic dictates the fact that "something" out of the ordinary transpired at Botkinskaya Hospital, it is in declassified documents or an interview that the Russian physicians stated quite clearly that they knew Oswald understood Russian while they spoke to him there, but he pretended not to understand what they were saying to him; that is my understanding......I personally do not believe a Soviet assassin returned from the USSR in place of Oswald, and that the real Oswald remained there

-- Robert Howard.

While this Adminsitration [illegal and unelected] is an extreme and should have awoken all, this process has been underway overtly since Dallas and covertly before. It will continue no matter who is the next President.

-- Peter Lemkin

Mr. Simkin says we can ask questions here. First, let me say that there is an audio tape of "Harvey" Oswald in Russia, obviously learning English. Three years later, it is the same voice on the 2 radio shows before the assassination and the same voice of the patsy in the Dallas Police Station, as he answered reporter's questions. Only by 1963, he has English down pat for the most part. McAdams might have these audios. This is why I believe Harvey Oswald was Russian and wasn't related to Robert Oswald, etc.

Kathy Collins

Kathy, there's a longer version of this tape, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent on the same tape. The longer version makes it more obvious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. When it comes to Norton all common sense seems to fly out the window. Had LHO survived he would have been taken back to Russia and "got rid of", at the very least he would have been hidden away somewhere very remote. The Russians would have 100% definitely NOT have allowed him to go back to the USA, let alone start talking to JFK researchers. Rethink Armstrong, his theories are so ludicous I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was pure disinformation, this is certainly the kind of whacko book that gets researchers laughed at by the public. And no politician will ever support the research community whilst nonsense like that is being supported. Denis

The guy bottom right, anyone else see a resemblance? http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/reed4.jpg

Couldn't see anything at that URL.

Just got a message that "remote linking of images is not permitted."

Yeah Myra your right, must be a copy right thing.

But I was able to go to the site and see the image.

Wow, I've never seen it before.

Oswald getting arrested at the TX Theater.

I tried attaching it; we'll see it that works.

I can see why the guy you mentioned reminds you of Ruby.

There is a resemblance.

Wow great shot! I think I've only seen this in B/W, and cropped; with right side chopped off. Anybody have any idea who the FBI looking guy, just left of the box office is? His hat appears blueish in this print.

Sorry Frank no idea but I now know that "my" guy is definitly not Ruby, apparantly its Dallas Police Sgt. Gerald Hill. Oh well, keep trying, one day. Denis.

The guy bottom right, anyone else see a resemblance? http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/reed4.jpg

Couldn't see anything at that URL.

Just got a message that "remote linking of images is not permitted."

Yeah Myra your right, must be a copy right thing.

But I was able to go to the site and see the image.

Wow, I've never seen it before.

Oswald getting arrested at the TX Theater.

I tried attaching it; we'll see it that works.

I can see why the guy you mentioned reminds you of Ruby.

There is a resemblance.

Thanks for the help Myra. Glad you see it too. Denis.

The guy bottom right, anyone else see a resemblance? http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/reed4.jpg

Couldn't see anything at that URL.

Just got a message that "remote linking of images is not permitted."

Yeah Myra your right, must be a copyright thing.

The guy bottom right, anyone else see a resemblance? http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/reed4.jpg

Here is another comparison of the crosswalk people. The only person

I can find common to both images is the white socks lady in the green

dress. Can you find any other matches?

Jack

Jack, Look directly above the drivers head in Towner, the man in uniform is no longer missing, as he was in Zapruder. Jack, I suspect this may be a dumb question but can you explain why anyone would want to alter images so far, relatively speaking, from the actual assassination, just a question Jack, not a criticism. Denis.

I used the word AXX awhile ago in another post. "...would you like to take the bullit out of my XXX" and got edited... However the following degrades me and all forum members and was posted on this Forum in an attempt to indirectly call me a xxxx and too, to degrade me as an untruthful person. FWIW

...."Hey dumb-XXX !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!.......".

I see this as a double standard. And I believe this is why good researchers who used to be on this forum have left and refuse to post their research and information.

Can you really be surprised if some of the members here are a little hostile, you did "die" in a plane crash a few months back. Remember?

No not really surprised. However did you see the Police Reports of the two stolden computers and the report of one being found in a Pawn shop in ABQ NM? Did you see the police report of the broken door and windows to gain entry to my home in NM while I was flying a trip?.. No you did not. It is easier to just say I'm a nut and not look or check what I say. I did not think you were that shallow. I will post what I think is true and I will post any documentation I obtain to back up what I say about the JFK.... If you do not want that information then do not read my post..... I mentioned double standard.. and referenced... had nothing to do with my "FAKED" death as you call it.... Is that your opinion.?.. or do you know something I do not?... if so post your referfences or shut up and let me get on with trying to help those who want my input and feed back or things I do know and played a part in... I mean this in the most nicest way. Thank you for you reply

I do not care about hostile people I have being dealing with those types ever since I have been on this Forum... Yoou miss the reason I post on this forum... I was ask by many to come back on this forum... reluctantly I did. And I have tried for hours and days to document and reference everything I have said. Now can we move on and do some research on the JFK assassination... I know where I am going with these post references... Do You?

I never mentioned the word "fake" or "nut"..... you did. You dont know my opinion of you Mr Plumlee because I have never stated it. I dont go in for insulting people over the net, I prefer it more face to face. But I know many that do, so I repeat, dont be supprised if some here are hostile.

I used the word AXX awhile ago in another post. "...would you like to take the bullit out of my XXX" and got edited... However the following degrades me and all forum members and was posted on this Forum in an attempt to indirectly call me a xxxx and too, to degrade me as an untruthful person. FWIW

...."Hey dumb-XXX !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!.......".

I see this as a double standard. And I believe this is why good researchers who used to be on this forum have left and refuse to post their research and information.

Can you really be surprised if some of the members here are a little hostile, you did "die" in a plane crash a few months back. Remember?

Only an incompetent or agent would claim that Armstrong is a "White Russian".

This person has no idea what he is talking about, and knows NOTHING about Armstrong!

Jack

Then Jack why does he hide? Is he afraid of getting killed? And I'd like to ask you how Donald O. Norton of the naturally red hair resembles LHO. What, in your opinion, ever happened to Lee Oswald?

Have you ever heard the tape of Oswald reading English (with a British accent) aloud in Russia? If Oswald defected, would Intelligence hire someone that dumb? That's a Russian man learningEnglish. The same voice, but with a much more American style of speaking, can be heard on Harvey's 2 radio shows and in the corridors of the Dallas police station 3 years later.

Please respond.

Kathy Collins

Kathy, there's a longer version of this, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent on the same tape. The longer version makes it more obvious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. When it comes to Norton all common sense seems to fly out the window. Had LHO survived he would have been taken back to Russia and "got rid of", at the very least he would have been hidden away somewhere very remote. The Russians would have 100% definitely NOT have allowed him to go back to the USA, let alone start talking to JFK researchers. Rethink Armstrong, his theories are so ludicous I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was pure disinformation, this is certainly the kind of whacko theory that gets researchers laughed at by the public. And no politician will ever support the research community whilst nonsense like that is being supported. Denis.

Altgens 5 and Zapruder 120 show different people in the Elm crosswalk at Houston.

This is clearly impossible. If you can identify one of the 20 persons in the Z frame

anywhere within the Altgens image, you will be awarded the Gerald Posner medal

of superiority. Find two of the same people and win a Bugliosi oak leaf cluster.

Jack

Craig's right, once you realise #20 is the policeman most (not all) of the people are easy to identify. #13 is the man with folded arms, # 12 is the older black youth, #11 is the younger black youth in the check shirt, 10# in short sleeves is the guy in Altgens standing behind the lady in a smart 2 piece suit, #8 is the lady in smart suit, #5 is lady clasping hands with white handbag held waist high,#4 is smart tall man in suit just visible in Altgens over policeman's shoulder, #3 is lady shielding eyes an holding coat. Once you realize the Altgens photo angle is all wrong all becomes clear and of course the crowd is looking in the direction of JFK. Sloppy work Jack, thank goodness Craig's here.

Bill,

I can't remember off-hand where I read this but Ziger working for an American company may have been a translation misunderstanding. It might have meant 'American Committees' aka Office of Inter-American Affairs.

FWIW.

James

Some good stuff on the Ziger's, some of it from Oswald's own diary. If Oswald meant "company" rather than "committee" wouldn't the abbreviation be comp ?

THE ZIGERS

"January 12, 1960 I vist Minsk Radio Factory where I shall work. There I meet Argentinian immigrant Alexander Zeger. Born a Polish Jew. immi to Argen. in 1933 and back to Polish homeland (now part of Belo.) in 1955. Speaks English with Amer. accent he worked for Amer. Com. in Argen. He is Head of a Dept. A quialified engenien. in late 40's, mild mannered, likable. He seems to want to tell me somet. I show him my tempor. docu. and say soon I shall have Russ. citiz."

In 1938 Alexander Ziger emigrated from Poland to Argentina where he worked for an American company. This is assuming that "Amer. Com. in Argen" stands for "American Company." (Another possible interpretation is "American Committee." The Office of Inter-American Affairs was known in South America as the "American Committees.") Alexander Ziger returned to Poland in 1956 "homesick for his native land and taken in by their propaganda." The CIA stated: "Available records show that the ship Salta, when leaving Buenos Aires, Argentina, for Odessa, USSR, on July 1, 1956, carried repatriates back to the Soviet Union. Among them were Alexander Ziger, Soviet, age 44, engineer. Ana Ziger, Soviet, age 46...A report of 1957 refers to Alejandro Ziger, a Pole, and radio-telephonic expert, 44 years old, married to Ana Dmitruk, a Pole, 47 years old." [Draft of 518-219] The Zigers native land was by then part of the USSR. The Zigers ended up living in Minsk. In 1957 Ziger applied for an exit visa at the Argentine Embassy, Moscow. He was refused. OSWALD wrote: "...In Minsk the capital of belorussia the ministry of Interia [inertia?] became responsible in 1960 for determining the eligibility of aplicants for hard to get exit visas too leave the USSR formaly the official progrative of Moscow alone but now that this state ministry in Moscow has "withered away" it becomes all the more difficule to get an exit visa since now one had to go to the area, city and republican state capital commites of beaurocrats and on top of all that a last finial O.K. has to come from increadibly the Moscow ministry of foreign affairs!!" [WCE 25 p10]

The CIA identified Alexander Ziger's friend Anatoliy as Anatol Kholodov, after the Warren Report was released. A check of unspecified Agency files on November 18, 1964, revealed "no identifiable information on Kholodov."

The Warren Commission believed the Zigers were susceptible to persecution because of their association with OSWALD. Like Rimma Sherakova, the name "Ziger" was changed when Life Magazine printed excerpts from OSWALD'S Historic Diary. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, who wrote much of the Warren Report, "indicated that some of OSWALD'S references to the Zigers had been toned down to protect them." In 1977, Alexander Ziger lived in Minsk. Alexander Ziger died in the early 1990's possibly in Israel. [slawson: Rankin with I.D. Levine-Transmittal 2-6.2.64, transcript pp. 14-16; WC Inventory & Evidence 3-6 Slawson; WC Rankin Memo 10.6.64; CIA 947-927; Conversation with telephone operator, Minsk, USSR]

Guess he didn't know English too well either - this does not strike me as a NYC, New Orleans, or Dallas accent, either. Very odd.

http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/tapes.htm

- lee

Lee, there's a longer version of this, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent on the same tape. The longer version makes it more obvlious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. Denis.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

I am no longer posting substantively here to protest being placed on moderation for, IMO, no valid reason. I think I may do a final post in the Tim Gratz Moderation Section to explain my POV but I do not want to clutter this thread with anything controversial.

I just want to take this opportunity to wish each of you a merry Christmas and best wishes for the new year. I am sure we all hope that in 2008, which will mark the 45th anniversary of the assasination, we may yet see some progress in the case, perhaps through revelations in the Jeff Morley suit versus the CIA.

The Key West History magazine (an unofficial magazine sold in Key West, not "sanctioned" by any official body) just published a special issue, Key West during the Cuban Missile Crisis. The front cover is JFK in his open convertible (a Lincoln borrowed from a Miami dealership) inspecting HAWK missiles. It is 24 pages in length and includes many vintage photographs. It also includes the full text of JFK's address to the nation announcing the quarantine.

I am sure it probably has a few factual errors. For instance, it shows three women casually walking by an armed missile launcher on Smathers Beach, but I suspect the main Key West beach was not yet named after Sen. Smathers who was in office until 1968 as I recall. But it is still a rather interesting piece for those interested in JFK and/or the Cuban missile crisis.

I have a limited number of the magazines I'll be glad to give to ANY member who will send me a stamped self-addressed flat envelope. (The magazine is 8.5 by 11.0 inches. I suspect it would take about $1 of postage to send within the continental U.S.

If you would like a copy, mail me your stamped and addressed envelope at:

Tim Gratz, 1413 Laird Street, #1, Key West, FL 33040.

I will post on this thread when my supply has been exhausted.

Once more, happy holidays and best wishes to EACH of you for a healthy and happy new year.

Thanks Tim, I wish you and your family a great xmass and a wonderfull new year. Denis.

"Roberts was only following orders, he may of been in charge on-site but not overall.

If he told individual agents to stay off the limo or, stay in the car as the shooting started, he was told to do that, most likely by Boring or someone even higher up the food chain."

Alan, was Roberts the commanding field officer? I always thought it was Winston Lawson, I may be wrong. Denis.

Can anyone clearly show me where the umbrella man is seen pumping his umbrella up and down.

I have heard this claim made a dozen times on the forum, but is still have not seen it with my own eyes.

Am i missing something, is there clear evidence that this actually happened. ?

Robin, I dont belive an image of the actual "pumping" exists. But if you need proof it happened just Google. There's literally hundreds of references to the incident. Its also mentioned in the HSCA report. Denis.

No Kathy but a guy pumping it up and down like a raving lunatic would.

Posted Today, 03:49 AM

Does it really matter what the hell the guy is waving?? Don, whatever it is, hammer, coffee mug or beer stein, it was NOT a signal to fire. OK.

Right, Denis, true enough in a sense.

But, many times in the past researchers have failed to analyse in depth, only to discover to their embarrassment that seemingly insignificant details later proved to be key points of linkage to points of major importance.

In this regard, a good example (remaining on topic) is the case of the irrational exuberance which occurred when it was apparently discovered that Lee Bowers could not have seen Hudson on the steps. This alleged discovery was mistakenly hailed as a proof that Bowers' general testimony of seeing the two men at the steps was invalid.

But, afterwards, lo & behold, these remarkable photos surfaced proving that Bowers easily could have seen Hudson's right plaid jacket at the shoulder or if he had raised his right arm:

So, paying attention to little stuff can pay off BIG!

From little acorns...etc etc, yes Miles, your right of course but this does not include close examination of what every body in the plaza was holding/waving that day, does it. With respect sir, your dictum must be applied with a certain amount of common sense. Whatever the guy, who seems to be having a innocent fun day out with the wife and kid, was waving is not going to help this case one iota.

But, you know what, it had been raining earlier that day, so an umbrella wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

Kathy Collins

No Kathy but a guy pumping it up and down like a raving lunatic would.

Does it really matter what the hell the guy is waving?? Don, whatever it is, hammer, coffee mug or beer stein, it was NOT a signal to fire. OK.

There seems to be a contradiction in Morley's explanation of the SBT. It has been my impression that Specter came up with the SBT after it was discovered that bystander Tague had also been wounded. Thus there was another bullet to account for. Specter solved this by claiming that one bullet wounded both JFK and Connally.

The SBT did not solve, but rather contradicted, the 1.1 seconds that Morley says was evident on film between the woundings of JFK and Connally. So how could trying to solve the 1.1 seconds problem be the rationale for the SBT? The rationale, so I've always thought, was the wounding of Tague.

I belive your right Ron, in that Specter had to come up with a quick answer to account for a possible fourth bullet. Ironically, I dont think the SBT was necessary, if he had considered the possibility that Tague's wound had been caused by a fragment of bullet rather than a ricochet from a complete bullet we may never have been burdened by his crazy SBT.

Excellent post. I agree 100%.

Reasoning ability was given to us all. Deciding the veracity of posts--separating the wheat from the chaff--is part of the fun of being here, I think. Sharpens your skills as a critical thinker. Scholarship depends on those critical thinking skills and being able to keep an open mind.

Most who post at this end of the Education Forum, namely the JFK Assassination section are NOT interested in scholarship, critical thinking, or teaching about [or concerning] the assassination. Most here are beyond reason. Most here understand that the WCR IS the "chaff". And finally, most of us do NOT consider this FUN. In fact some consider this W-A-R.

There are as many agendas here as there are posters. Yes, even John Simkin and Andy Walker have agenda -- and I suspect you do too!

Welcome to the cover-up of the CENTURY

When Courtney speaks of "fun" all she really means is she enjoys researching here. We all obviously do or we wouldn't be here. The girl meant no harm. Give her a break.

Unless I'm becoming a fruit loop, I just watched the Zapruder Film and for the first time saw what looked like the driver turning around and shooting Kennedy! It seems impossible, but you must look at this. Watch the driver, the timing of the fatal shot and the white area on the grass, usually referred to as "the blob."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WCc_y5k0n8

Kathy

Hi Kathleen, This ones been around for a while now, what you're actually seeing is light shining/reflecting off the other agents head. Denis.

The mysterious role of Fred Crisman, Dallas tramp. Quote on Adamski: : "In addition to holding a passport bearing special privileges,"

So he could fly to Mars no doubt. LOL

This old chestnut just wont shrivel and die, will it. Surely its been proved by now, beyond any reasonable doubt that the tramps are Harold Doyle, John Gedney and Gus Abrams. There's arrest records, then and now photographs and positive I.D. how much more is needed?

"Your information and your history will soon be posted"

Just what Joseph McCarthy would have said, love the irony. lol

This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

In recent months it has been turned over to disinformation scum who dump wholly irrelevant and unanalyzed garbage into it by the truckload—which not only is condoned by the administrators, but actually has been endorsed by John Simkin.

I've recently posted two parody posts in just two of the insanely off-topic and irrelevant threads that John Bevilaqua started for no other purpose except to provide a stage where he and Tim Gratz can absolutely flood the forum with this wholesale useless trash and keep their phony Punch 'n' Judy show going to drown out as much rationality as possible with demented off-topic noise. Those parody posts of mine soon will be deleted as the first of my posts in this forum to be deleted. The rest of my contributions over the past year and a half to this forum have been graciously archived by several people, and also will incrementally be deleted over time as they are reposted elsewhere in locations where reasonable and rational people maintain order and provide a safe environment for dissemination and reasoned discussion of relevant facts and truth.

While I have the greatest of admiration for what Simkin and Walker set out to do with the establishment of these forums, and while I owe a debt of gratitude to both for allowing me to present in these forums the evidence and work so hard won, I no longer wish to have my works associated with what this forum now has been converted to.

I am deeply indebted to several members of this forum for their tireless dedication to getting at the truth and the rational discussion and analysis of facts, and it has been a supreme honor to have had a chance to meet you and correspond with you. I have learned much from you. I expect you will be apprised in some way when my works are reposted elsewhere. You will be welcomed there, and I always welcome personal communication from you, which you can access with PMs through this forum until and unless Simkin or Walker elect to cancel my membership here.

Ashton Gray

Another real JFK researcher leaving the forum because of Bevilaqua!! And his anti fascist rantings. How many more.