Evan Burton

Peter,

Is that slide from Dr Jones' presentation?

Turns out I was wrong; no-one specifically mentions seeing the stars from the lunar surface. There are examples of mentioning the Earth, though, which I have included in the list below.

The list below are various discussions and quotes where the astronauts mention what stars they could see. Mostly they talk about seeing stars through the AOT (Alignment Optical Telescope)- a sextant like in the CM, but in the LM. It is taken from the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal.

APOLLO 11

[buzz is at the end of the top paragraph on Sur-3. Houston will look over the proposed alignment before it is loaded.]

[Aldrin - "You've got the previous alignment in the AGS and you've just re-aligned the PGNS and, if that (new PGNS alignment) isn't very good, you don't want to screw up the one in the AGS. If it is (good), you store it in the AGS."]

[Aldrin, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "The ideal was to get a gravity direction and then to do a two-star alignment and look at the torquing angles after the two-star check which would then give an indication as to what the drift had been since the last alignment. The initial gravity alignment, combined with the two-star alignment, would produce a new location of the landing site. (See below.) Had we landed straight ahead (instead of being yawed left 13 degrees), my intent was to use Rigel in the left detent number 6 and Capella in the right detent. The 13-degree yaw moved Capella out of the right-rear detent, but Rigel was in good shape there. That's the one I used first. I then selected Navi in number 4 detent, the right rear, and that wasn't particularly satisfactory. It was quite dim and it took a good bit longer than I had hoped to get the marks on that."]

[Contrary to Buzz's statement here, the alignment procedures gave no information about landing site location. Frank O'Brien adds, " The gravity alignment and stellar alignments performed the same function, namely, to align the IMU to a known attitude. In both cases, the attitude was determined with respect to two vectors: either two stars (a stellar alignment) or one star and the local vertical as indicated by gravity (a gravity alignment). Neither procedure was used to determine position, which was the purpose of the state vector."]

(snip)

103:22:04 Duke: Tranquility Base, Houston. If you have not done so, please close both Fuel and Ox vents now. Over.

103:22:17 Armstrong: They're closed.

103:22:18 Duke: Thank you, sir. (Long Pause)

103:22:30 Armstrong: From the surface, we could not see any stars out the window; but out my overhead hatch (means the overhead rendezvous window), I'm looking at the Earth. It's big and bright and beautiful. Buzz is going to give a try at seeing some stars through the optics.

103:22:54 Duke: Roger, Tranquility. We understand. Must be a beautiful sight. Over.

[Comm Break]

[buzz is about to do a platform alignment using the Alignment Optical Telescope ( AOT) to do star sightings. Gene Cernan says that, while standing in the shadow of the Apollo 17 LM, he could see some stars while he was outside. I asked the 11 crew if they had made any such experiment.]

[Armstrong - "I don't recall doing it on the surface. We tried a good bit inside."]

[Aldrin - "I guess I wouldn't have given it any hope at all."]

[Armstrong - "There was a thought that, if you could look through a tube, you would probably be able to see stars. I don't remember that we tried anything like that."]

[Aldrin - "You could see them in the AOT, which was sort of like that."]

[Armstrong - "Which was just one power (meaning a telescope with no magnification)."]

[A related question is whether or not stellar images could have been captured in any of the lunar surface photography. A discussion from Sky and Telescope Editor Dennis di Ciccio is linked here.

APOLLO 12

115:54:26 Conrad: Al, can you find the Earth? Where's the Earth? Oh, there it is. I can see it. Hello there, Earth. (TV still)

[Earth is in the eastern sky at an azimuth of 84.8 degrees and an elevation of 60.8 degrees. Only a thin cresent is lit ( 80k ), with part of Antractica visible on the right and the entrance to the Persian Gulf visible on the left. Image from Starry Night.]

APOLLO 16

125:56:33 Young: Because I can't make it. (Hearing Tony) Okay, Reset; Mark. 258, 64.

125:56:40 England: Rog. (Long Pause)

125:57:11 Duke: Man, that (UV camera) is some contraption, John. (Long Pause)

125:57:34 Young: 258 and 64, Houston.

125:57:37 England: Okay, fine. We'd like you to get on in then.

125:57:42 Young: Okay. That's not looking at anything that I recognize. (Long Pause)

[AZ258 and EL64 do not correspond to any of the targets listed on the UV camera decal. Because the lunar surface is so bright, he is probably not able to see any stars and, therefore, would not be commenting on his aim relative to the constellations.]

(snip)

[Jones - "Could you see stars out in the shadow?"]

[Duke - "No. The only thing that was visible was the Sun and the Earth. The UV camera was just looking up into the heavens all the time, to me; and I don't know what they were looking at. We didn't take the time to dark adapt."]

[A related question is whether or not stellar images could have been captured in any of the lunar surface photography. All of the photos taken out on the surface were taken at an exposure of 1/250th of a second at f/8 or f/11. The two film types were SO 368 Ektachrome MS color-reversal film ASA 64 and 2485 black and white film, ASA 6000. Sky and Telescope Senior Editor Dennis di Cicco states, "Sirius and a few other bright stars might actually be bright enough to have recorded on the exposures, but the images would be impossibly small and hard to find on the original negatives. Furthermore, when such a negative was printed to show the foreground properly, it certainly would not have shown the star(s)" di Cicco notes that it would be easy to perform such an experiment on Earth. "Go out at night with a similar setup used for the lunar photos and take a similar exposure of bright stars. Develop the film and see if you can find any star images. Then, have the negative printed with an exposure that would be proper for a normally exposed daylight negative. I am confident that you'll never, ever see a star on the print!"]

Thread entitled "Replying to Daman reinstated after my email to Simkin" locked.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11118

Thread locked.

Duane,

I have been considering your position, and I will retract the warning level I put onto you. This will reduce you back to 20%, but it is on the understanding - and this applies to everyone - curb your insults. If you want to express your disapproval of someone, then do so in a civil manner.

People will receive one public warning (so that other may see what I am considering acceptable and not acceptable). If you do not take heed, your warning level will be increased. The public warning will be on the thread where the infraction occurs, the raising of your warning level will be record in this thread.

If you believe the public warning is unwarranted, then please note this in the complaints thread. I will then ask other moderators to review the decision. Same with raising of the warning level - if you disagree, note it in the complaints thread and other moderators will review the decision.

Once again - this applies to everyone. If you think that I have stepped over the line, then report me using the "REPORT!" button on the bottom left-hand corner of the post. This will notify ALL mods, and another moderator will consider if I have breeched standards of civility.

Lastly, may I repeat what I have said elsewhere: attack the message, not the messenger.

I have a complaint ..

My post comments have been taken out of context by Evan Burton and now are being used against me here ... Other members post insults on almost a daily basis , yet none of their comments have been posted on the complaints thread .

I think it only fair that since my comments have been posted in the complaints thread , that the insults which preceeded mine , which caused me to reply in kind , should also be posted here as well .

Taking comments OUT OF CONTEXT and not seeing why I posted the remarks I did is completely unfair ... and because of this unfairness, I have now been put on moderation with the possibility of having my account removed .

I have included a link to the posts so that people can read your entire post, and the thread in which they occurred.

That was during Apollo 11... but IIRC, other astronauts did mention the stars. They certainly did during flight, and I think some mentioned seeing the stars from the lunar surface. I'll have to check on that and get back to you.

For me it is a tough one.

I would certainly want some type of revenge; if I had had family members tortured or killed by the Nazis then I would be thinking an eye for an eye. On cooler reflection though, execution may not be the answer. I agree with Peter that permanent incarceration may well be a 'harsher' punishment, and can be reversed (to a degree) if circumstances show that the original verdict was flawed or wrong.

Still, I never had family members in that position so for me it is just a hypothetical.

Those comments would have to apply to Karl Brandt as well.

If he was to be executed, then the offer to be a human guinea pig might be worth considering. His death might be used to gain knowledge which would save lives. So perhaps he should have been allowed to die that way. There are two arguments against that though: firstly, it might add a dignity to his death which victims would object to, and it opens the way for people to be used like that. Give condemned persons that option, then the state might decide a few more condemned is what is needed to help solve some problems...

Safer to stay on this side of the fence, I think.

On the last point, I agree with Andy - there is no comparison.

Peter,

Please stop throwing the insults at Len. If you find his arguments flawed, then expose those flaws.

Also, motives for posting should not be questioned. It doesn't matter who says what, it matters what they say. If what someone says is true, then it is irrelevant if that person is your best friend or your worst enemy.

Peter,

Only a relatively minor point, but those plans were not kept secret.

According to this article, there were others before that.

Also, Len is quite correct when he says that procedures may have been significantly different in 2001 to what Mr Hordon was used to in 1981. I can tell you procedures in Australia were quite different in 2001 compared to when I first started ATC training in 1988.

Here we go:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=85469

That post has a diagramme of the sextant and pictures of the star charts.

They used a sextant for backup navigation and confirming the accuracy of the onboard inertial guidance unit. The charts were used in case the computer failed to point the sextant to the correct star.

Apart from that, yes stars were visible from the CM; it gets mentioned a couple of times and I am pretty sure there is a thread about it here somewhere (I'll see if I can find it).

It should be made clear that no-one says the stars were not visible; it's just that with the camera exposure settings the stars did not appear on the film (except in one rare exception, where Venus - IIRC - can be faintly seen).

We often get fooled by the 'black sky' on the Moon and think of it being "night" whereas it was actually in full daylight (they landed during the lunar morning). There was a considerable amount of light.

While you are talking about illusions, here is another - one of my favourites.

Believe it or not, the squares marked A and B are exactly the same colour.

Check it for yourself with photoshop, or make a colour printout of it and fold the paper so that the squares are next to each other.

A quick explanation might be in order here.

John & Andy have admin rights on this board; they run it.

The Mods have limited rights on the sub-boards where they are assigned. We can close, open, and move threads or posts. We can edit posts. We can increase the warning level of members, a maximum of 10% per 24 hour period. We can approve posts from people who have been placed on moderation.

We CANNOT place people on moderation. We CANNOT alter a login, or ban a member.

ANY action (move, delete, etc) taken by a Mod is recorded by the security log. Any editing of posts by ANYONE is recorded in the security log.

THE BOARD ADMINS CANNOT ALTER THE SECURITY LOG; they can only view it. It tells them of all the goings on of the board.

This is why John and Andy can easily confirm if any member edits a post, deletes a post, moves a post, etc.

You wrote on the pinned complaints thread (where you have posted my comments OUT OF CONTEXT ) , that you had removed an inappropriate post of mine ...It was the one above where I linked the nasty Apollo hoax forum comments .

I couldn't log back in to this forum at all but somehow in my absence of a few hours , my name was logged back in without me doing it , and the post which you removed had reappeared ...Plus the comment that said you had removed my post , is now gone from the pinned complaints ...

Is that accusation clear enough ?

It is, thank you, and once again: I did not delete & reinstate any posts, I did not tamper with your login, etc.

Just how many times do you need to be proven wrong before you admit your error?

I have NOT blocked, disable or otherwise done anything to your posting rights.

I do not have that ability.

However, with your continued harassment of me and false accusations, I am going to request that John or Andy put you on moderation.

Duane:

I did not delete then replace any post of yours.

Any problems you had with logging in have NOTHING to do with me.

I am reading your post above as an accusation that I did have something to do with it.

Make the accusation clear, or state clearly that you admit I had nothing to do with it.

Contents of PM sent to John and Andy:

John, Andy,

Would you please review the admin logs and confirm that I did not "banish" Duane but did raise his warning level by 10%, for the reasons stated in the Mod Actions thread?

Could you also see if anything happened to Duane's membership during that period, i.e. banning?

Lastly - John, would you confirm that I sent you a PM regarding Duane and Jack's inability to log in as "invisible", and did so well prior to Jack's complaint?

Request you post the replies to the following thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11118

Thanks,

Evan

Are you completely stupid Jack?

Let me say it once again:

I DID NOT BAN DUANE. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, HE NEVER WAS BANNED.

I'm asking John and Andy to review the logs to confirm that:

1) I had nothing to do with this; and

2) In all probability, Duane was never "banished".

In fact, and John can confirm this, I sent an e-mail to him (John) that Duane (and yourself) was unable to log in as invisible, and requested he look into it.

I'm thinking it is possible that this is what Duane told you, but you interpreted as him being banished and immediately blamed me - without cause or justification.

I'm getting sick of your constant harassment Jack. You accused me of misdeeds many times, they have always been proven to be untrue, and never once have you apologised for the accusations.

Len,

If you have a point to make, could you make it more succinctly?

Jack,

Regardless of your actual beliefs, was the school system you went through as described by Len? Was evolutionary theory taught?

Duane has just informed me that he can no longer log on to the Forum,

and was notified by Burton of the action. Ridiculous!

I request that all forum members PROTEST THIS BANISHMENT AND

REPORT IT TO JOHN SIMKIN. This is carrying a personal vendetta

too far!

Disgusted.

Jack

Once more - you are wrong. I have done no such thing.

I have increased Duane's warning level for the reasons given in the thread.

If you want to complain, take it to the complaints thread - last warning.

Thread locked.

And these:

It's much more fun to get with your closed minded pals and bash the crap out of the conspiracy "nutjobs" , right phunk ?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119902

and of course the many fools like you , who defend them .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119809

These two conspiracy researchers are famous , " Mr. Light" from Jumpoff Place , Indiana and you're not ...

...inspite of closed minded , game playing jerks like you .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119806

Along with doing nothing but disagreeing with eveyone who is trying to show you a truth you refuse to believe , by spewing more of your typical misinformation , you obviously don't know how to read either

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119294

Len's and your deliberate misinformation would be scary if it wasn't so pathetically ridiculous ...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119276

David Percy wouldn't wipe his boots on you , much less waste his valuable time arguing with a closed minded disinformation artist who posts nothing but venom.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=118886

...he's just one little egotistical photographer living in the boondocks of the midwest ... Otherwise known as Jumpoff Place , Indiana .

So Craig's unkind remark, claiming that I rely on the statements of people like White and Percy to think for me , is a lie .

All Craig has done by starting this thread is to continue to character assassinate Jack and David with his game of "one up" on the conspiracy researchers and has reminded us all what a mean and hateful little man he really is ( as if any of us needed reminding ) .. For a guy who's in his 50's , this game is very immature .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=118790

You really do live in the land of Geekdom by the river Denial , don't you ?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=118437

If you had a reply that would benefit you , you would certainly not hesitate to post it , instead of looking like a dishonest fool .

* edited to add... You are also being dishonest in what you claim my post comments were to you

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=117421

These are examples from this month alone.

Duane's warning level is increased to 30% for continued abuse towards other Forum members:

That's quite a gang of thugs you got there Craig ...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=120422

You have no business being a moderator here .... You're an insulting jerk .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=120308

If you ever posted anything besides projection , insults , lies , or lectures , then I might have taken you a bit more seriously ... As it is , all you prove is just how nasty you really are .

I have friends who read your posts here to me , and they keep telling me to walk away from this forum because of members like you .. In fact , a few of them have told me that they think you're insane ... I think they're right .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=120305

If all of your studies were really wrong , then arses like Lamson wouldn't be bothered with you...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=120023

...shows what a delusional fool you really are .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119987

You would rather die than to admit that even one of the Apollo photos is anomalous or suspicious in any respect .. and considering how many of them are anomalous and suspicious , I find that downright dishonest and deceptive .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119984

All narcissistic craig cares about is people praising him for his photography ... But maybe it's a good thing that he at least can take pretty pictures , cuz I doubt he's good for much else ... Except being a jerk on discussion forums maybe .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119980

...but after the witch hunt against him here , started by you and Dave, and your typical obnoxious character assassination of him and his work...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119971

You really are quite delusional

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119933

You wouldn't recognize a scam if it jumped up and bit you on your unenlightened arse

So the real garbage is what is posted there by clowns like you and your pal Craig .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=119910

Original image from above, with no alterations at all. Original size, no annotations.