Evan Burton

Alright - the pressure selling has won me over (tee-hee).

Which vendor is preferred? Amazon or B&N? I'd like to generate some revenue for the site while I'm doing the same for you!

I think there are a lot of fair points there.

Peter's post includes a reference to an interview with General Heinz Karst. According to Karst:

“When, in 1995, the Federal building in Oklahoma was blown up and 168 human beings were killed, people first thought of Islamic terrorists. But they were Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, two elite soldiers of the Green Berets."

A minor issue, but McVeigh was never an elite soldier of the Green Berets. He dropped out of training after the first or second day and left the US Army shortly after. I could find no evidence that Nichols was ever involved in any way with the Green Berets.

I'm not sure of the relevance of Karst's interview in the first place, but to get such a simple fact wrong casts doubt on whatever point or points he was trying to make.

Michael,

That's a very important point. Naturally I have my own views on 9/11, but if the people who believe it was not what it appears to be want to ensure their credibility is untarnished, they should check their facts and ensure that things like this do not occur.

Sure, it sounds juicier if you say someone belonged to this or that organisation, holds this or that qualification... but is it true? Things like this have a habit of being uncovered, so if you "enhance" someone's reputation in order to promote your views their discovery ultimately leads to them being discredited. This is very important because perhaps some - or even all - of what they say might be important / relevant / accurate. After being shown to have ones qualifications / experience / whatever not to the standard claimed, everything else they say is considered suspect.

If you hold a minority opinion, then your evidence should be above reproach and be able to withstand the utmost scrutiny by anyone - pro or con.

It really is an amazing story; I am aghast that the procedures were in place that could let this happen; I would have thought that "special weapons" would have been kept separate from conventional weapons. The check to see silver or orange should be a redundant check, because those weapons wouldn't be stored together.

It's a typical example of the Reason Model, otherwise know as the Swiss Cheese theory of accidents.

We are only human, so we put up defences against an undesirable condition: checks, training, etc. Each of these safeguards is like a slice of cheese. We have, however, holes in our defences (human laziness, unintentional errors, etc) which make the slice look like swiss cheese. When all the holes in our defences line up, an accident can occur.

As we can see, the decision to have special and conventional weapons together was a pre-condition / decision. The failure to check the warhead status was an unsafe act by the issuing personnel and the aircrew.

I think the comments about becoming lax regarding nukes with the end of the Cold War is also relevant, though the threat of terrorist activity should be just as much an incentive as any other.

Thanks Bill - much appreciated.

All posts moved.

New thread is here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11053

If no-one objects, I will move Duane's image claims to a new thread; it can be discussed there.

More examples of where Jack fails to live up to his proclaimed principles. Jack makes a claim about Apollo image AS12-49-7278, specifically saying:

The "sun" is behind the photographer's left shoulder

(Source: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/...-1190070035.jpg )

Dave makes a rebuttal, in which he clearly demonstrates that the sun is NOT coming from behind the photographer's left shoulder (about 7 o'clock), but rather from the left front (10 o'clock - 11 o'clock).

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=118789

Jack does not respond but instead engages Duane in playful banter. No correction to the assertion is made.

Once more Jack has made a claim which is proven to be false, and he fails to correct it.

************************

In this thread

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10998

Jack has asked by the LRV tracks have disappeared between two photos. In the study, Jack said:

"... repeated the flag salute pose from almost the same spot."

"Like identical notes on a musical scale, the flag, the LEM and LRV were identically relocated (color dots)."

When the uncropped images were placed side-by-side, it was apparent they were taken from different positions.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/...-1189904585.jpg

Jack's cropping of the images gave the impression they were taken from the same spot.

Dave gives a credible explanation as to why the LRV tracks were not visible in the foreground:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r81/hea...ck/tracks_1.jpg

************************

In this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10008

Jack crops and rotates images to make them appear as though they were all practically the same; in fact Jack calls them "...four near-identical photos...". Jack baulks when asked to provide the image catalogue numbers. Examination of the uncropped and unrotated images show that they are part of a clearing sequence and not "near-identical".

There is no acknowledgement from Jack.

***********************

In this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10031

Jack accuses the Moderators of censoring his thread. This was proven inaccurate.

There is no acknowledgement from Jack.

***********************

In this thread

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8711

Jack claims that the EVA suits worn during the Apollo 11 mission are different between boarding the spacecraft and during the EVA. dave points out that Jack is in error.

No acknowledgment from Jack.

***********************

In this post

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=103190

Jack accuses me of locking a thread. Andy confirms that the audit logs show I never locked it.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=103408

No apology from Jack.

***********************

This demonstrates that Jack White continually makes erroneous statements and refuses to correct them. He knowingly posts incorrect information. He has skewed data to favour his own statements. He makes accusations towards people but does not withdraw them when they are proven false. His reliability and honesty regarding the aforementioned instances, and his Apollo studies in general, are at best questionable.

What Jack has said:

"Axis of shadow must point towards bottom center"

"His shadow should point in the same direction in all three photos"

"Merely panning the camera would not have this effect"

(Specifically in reference to images AS12-47-6984, -6985, and -6986)

(Source: http://www.aulis.com/jackstudies_6.html )

Craig has completely disproved those assertions:

http://www.infocusinc.net/apollo.htm

Jack then only takes two of Craig's images, extending the centreline of the shadows to say that they do go to bottom centre, but omits other images in the same sequence that specifically disprove his assertion.

Jack's selection:

The full sequence:

Jack has only chosen the images that support his assertion, and discarded those images that disprove his assertion. He has also 'skewed' the blue line in the left-hand image to support his argument. Take a look at the blue line in the right-hand image; it roughly parallels the left-hand side of the shadow.

In the left-hand image though, the blue line does NOT run parallel to the left-hand side of the shadow. If the blue line were running parallel to the left-hand edge of the shadow, it would point towards the bottom left of the image and not the centre as Jack has claimed.

Craig points out the flaws in Jack's argument in this post.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117081

Kevin pointed out Jack's quote, pointing out it was wrong.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117234

Jack also says in post #34:

BUT if the shadow DOES NOT POINT TOWARD the center of the photo it cannot be an uncropped original photo.

(Source: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117329 )

Again: if the shadow DOES NOT POINT TOWARD the center of the photo it cannot be an uncropped original photo

Craig pointed out - with images - that once again Jack was incorrect:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117330

Jack then accuses Craig of misquoting him, but Craig proves that he did NOT misquote jack:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117462

There was no apology to Craig for that accusation.

Now, once more, Jack has said: if the shadow DOES NOT POINT TOWARD the center of the photo it cannot be an uncropped original photo

I gave multiple examples of where this statement is incorrect:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117480

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117481

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117484

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117485

Dave shows that the statement made by Jack is incorrect:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117736

Jack makes the boast:

Any time it can be proved that one of my studies is wrong, I am more eager than anyone to acknowledge AND CORRECT IT.

He has been proven wrong, but fails to admit it and fails to correct it. He has been reminded of this:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=117812

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=118122

If Jack continues to make assertions that he knows have been proven false, then he can only be described as being dishonest with his assertions in this matter.

Edited to add: It should also be noted that this is not the first time Jack raised this issue and has been told that he was in error:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8510

Use the complaints thread at the top of the page, Jack, and ensure other Moderators know you are unhappy. I stand by my actions. You made allusions as to why a person was posting, specifically giving reference to an ulterior motive.

I have deleted my post; I reserve the right to repeat it if your actions warrant it but for the moment will say I should have thought twice before making such a remark and apologise for it.

Jack White posts and quotes removed due to violation of rule (iv) - questioning the motives of a poster:

Thread: "WTC7 Controlled Demolition, described by witnesses"

URL: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...60&start=60

(iv) Members should not make personal attacks on other members. Nor should references be made to their abilities as researchers. Most importantly, the motivations of the poster should not be questioned. At all times members should concentrate on what is being said, rather than who is saying it.

"I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/about/about_buy.html

(And often looked like Jack Elam, which actually made me like them. As for the good guys in white hats, how come they only kissed their horses?)

LOL!

Nice one Ron!

Jack,

You made a claim about the photography.

Myself and others have shown examples which would seem to disprove your claims.

You have not tried to address the rebuttal, and instead remark that you believe your e-mails are being intercepted. You do not disprove the rebuttal.

You have also said that you are willing to correct any mistake you make - yet so far have failed to do so.

What do you call someone who makes statements and then does not live up to that statement, someone who gives an undertaking but does not honour that undertaking.. again and again?

I'm am pretty sure he said "They made the decision..." but I have to check later. Just popping for the moment.

Finally, an indepth examination of the damage regarding WTC7:

http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.htm

As must these people...

*********

1. They backed me off the rig because Seven was in dead jeopardy, so they backed everybody off and moved us to the rear end of Vesey Street. We just stood there for a half hour, 40 minutes, because Seven was in imminent collapse and finally did come down. –Firefighter Thomas Smith

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110246.PDF

2. Chief Nigro directed me to continue monitoring conditions at the site. Specifically to monitor number 7 World Trade Center. We were very concerned with the collapse potential there, and to do whatever I could do to ensure site safety in that no additional people became injured. –FDNY Deputy Chief Harold Meyers http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110382.PDF

3. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. So for the next five or six hours we kept firefighters from working anywhere near that building, which included the whole north side of the World Trade Center complex. –Chief Frank Fellini http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110217.PDF

4. We made searches. We attempted to put some of the fire out, but we had a pressure problem. I forget the name of the Deputy. Some Deputy arrived at the scene and thought that the building was too dangerous to continue with operations, so we evacuated number 7 World Trade Center. –Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110313.PDF

5. I remember him screaming about number 7, No. 7, that they wanted everybody away from 7 because 7 was definitely going to collapse, they don't know when, but it's definitely going to come down, just get the hell out of the way, everybody get away from it, make sure you're away from it, that's an order, you know, stuff like that. –Firefighter Edward Kennedy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110502.PDF

6. Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area --

Q. A collapse zone?

A. Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed. They shut down the power, and when it did collapse, the things that they were concerned with would have been [sic]. That's about it. –Chief Frank Cruthers

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110179.PDF

7. There was concern. I had gone up to take a look at it, because I knew that the telephone company building, which is 140 West Street, was next to 7 World Trade Center, and there was a concern that if 7 World Trade came down, what would happen to this building? We went in there, we checked it out. There were some people in there. We made them evacuate and I went in the back to see what was happening. I went back and I reminded whoever the chief was, I don't know if it was Chief McKavanagh or Chief Blaich, that with 7 World Trade Center in danger of collapsing, you had to be careful, because Con Edison had big transformers in the back that supplied the lower half of Manhattan. So we had to be concerned about electricity, that this may be energized or not be energized. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110261.PDF

8. "We heard reports all day long of 7 World Trade possibly coming down. ...We heard that all day long, all the warnings." –Firefighter Christopher Patrick Murray

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110327.PDF

9. It could have been an hour, hour and a half we were doing that before we were ordered to move away from that part of Tower No. 1 because there was an imminent danger of collapse of World Trade Center No. 5 and 7. –Firefighter Vandon Williams http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110282.PDF

10. Civilian photographer Tom Franklin: “Much of what happened to me on September 11 is a blur, but this moment I clearly remember: It was 4:45 p.m., and all the firemen and rescue workers were evacuating Ground Zero after word came that a third building -- WTC 7 -- was ready to fall.” http://archives.cjr.org/year/02/2/franklin.asp

11. Unidentified speaker in video: "Keep your eye on that building, it'll be coming down soon."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc7_blow_up.wmv

12. CBS-TV Reporter Vince DeMentri, who sneaked past security barriers to get close to the scene:

...Building 7 was going to collapse. That appears to be what has happened now. I don't know exactly how many stories the building is, Dan, but standing at the base of the building and watching it burn about an hour ago, it looked to be on the order of 50, 60 stories. [if anyone has the audio leading up to “...Building 7 was going to collapse,” let me know. I’m curious to know why the CT websites include only this much of the clip.] http://www.911podcasts.com/view.php?cat=4&...yp=0&form=0

13. So that was basically we watched that one come down. It was on fire first, I think the fourth floor was on fire they said. We were like are you guys going to put that fire out? I was like, you know, they are going to wait for it to burn down and it collapsed. So that's when I knew high rise buildings you know (inaudible).

Q: You were still there?

A: Yes, so basically they measured out how far the building was going to come, so we knew exactly where we could stand.

Q: So they just put you in a safe area, safe enough for when that building came down?

A: 5 blocks. 5 blocks away. We still could see. Exactly right on point, the cloud just stopped right there. Then when that building was coming down, that same rumbling. –EMT Decosta Wright

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110054.PDF

14. We went to get the car. We were inside the perimeter, more or less -- that's where the car was -- of where Seven World Trade Center was. We started back going east, I guess it is. ...We were inside this perimeter although we didn't realize it at the time we saw a rig with the compartments opened. We stopped. They were actually reversing. I kind of pulled up along side them. Murray yelled out the window “Your compartments are open.” The guy yelled something back at us. They kept backing up.

We went forward to imagine it’s the corner of Murray and West Street. Just as we were approaching it, we saw person run north in front of the car, and then Joe Mazzarella who was sitting in the passenger seat just started screaming “Reverse! Reverse! Reverse! Reverse!” I didn’t even look. I just threw it in reverse and punched it. We flew backwards without being able to see out the rear, and building Seven came down in front of us –Fire Marshal John Coyle http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110406.PDF

15. At this point, I moved up all the way to stairwell B. We got the lady out, passed her down, then they were trying to dig out, I believe it was a second Battalion Chief and I waited and stayed there with them until we were ordered—well, we were ordered several times, but the Captain of, I think it was a rescue company or a squad refused to leave. Finally he gave up, he said there was nothing he could do and we all left that area. This is in the collapse zone of tower 7.

At this point, I went down back to the middle area of the pile and I proceeded to make my way to the north side of the towers. At that point, I ran into Lieutenant Simms, who had another complement of Ladder 20 there. At this point, I guess I had formally reported into Deputy Chief Visconti. He was up on the North End. We waited until tower 7 collapsed and at this point, we went into the area and assessed the damage that was done to the buildings and to see if we could control the fires that resulted from the collapse of tower 7. –Captain Richard Weldon http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110307.PDF

16. At that time Seven World Trade Center was burning and in was danger of collapsing. ...I guess it was a Chief was saying clear the area, because they were worried about number Seven World Trade Center coming down and burying guys who were digging. So basically we went back to the rig because they were clearing that area out. It took about three hours for Seven World Trade Center to actually come down. –Firefighter Kevin McGovern http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110301.PDF

17. I remember later in the day it was getting close that they were more concerned about Seven coming down. I remember later on in the day as we were waiting for Seven to come down, they kept backing us up Vesey, almost like a full block. They were concerned about Seven coming down, and they kept changing us, establishing a collapse zone and backing us up.

As soon as it came down, everybody got up and tore ass west down Vesey Street. Everybody was trying to get into this building. I remember there were 150 guys trying to get through two revolving doors with full gear. Everyone is screaming. Guys were trying to smash the glass with their halogens to get through and ended up freaking out. Everybody was shell-shocked.

That’s when Salka came up and he said all right now that Seven was down you can start getting closer and down things. There was no collapse threat anymore. –Firefighter Vincent Massa

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110222.PDF

18. Eventually they had ordered everybody away from the area again because of building 7.

–Lieutenant James Walsh http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110459.PDF

19. We stayed in this area for a while, and we started wandering around, and we came around to where 6 and 7 were, and actually 7, we were coming down this corner going trying to find something to do, and that's when they were telling us 7 is going to go, 7 is going to go, so we kind of backed away.

–Firefighter Paul Vasquez http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110397.PDF

20. Q: Did 7 collapse yet?

A: 7 hasn’t collapsed yet. We were being told by -- I guess everybody was being a little insubordinate that day. Everyone wanted to do as much as they could, but we were told 5 minutes [to cease rescue operations on the pile], I don't know how many times. –Firefighter Gerard Suden

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110022.PDF

21. They had figured they knew that building was going to come down. It was just a question of time, and everybody was awaiting that. –Firefighter Russ Stroebel

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110497.PDF

22. A Battalion Chief was assigned to us. We took our apparatus to West Street to the north bridge, on that side over there, where we began to operate. We had identified different members who were deceased and trapped in rigs. We were about to proceed our operation there and this was in the afternoon, I would say approximately maybe 2:00 roughly, where we started to operate and then they asked us to fall back again due to the potential of 7 World Trade Center collapsing.

At that time, we had fallen back to probably opposite Stuyvesant High School, I believe it was on the west side there.

Q. That's uptown a little bit.

A. Right. They had us fall back to there. We stayed at that position until exactly when 7 collapsed. When 7 collapsed, we responded again. We had an Engine Company, a spare Engine Company with us and ourselves. We responded to just behind 7, which was, I think it was Greenwich, was it Washington or Greenwich? I think it was Greenwich. Is this Greenwich?

Q. It could be. I don't have a bigger map.

A. We turned the corner, 7 had just collapsed, the block that led into 7.

Q. Pretty sure that's Greenwich.

A. Greenwich and Park was covered with debris, there were burning autos and all debris. It was starting to extend into the buildings on both sides of the block. We went to hydrants in that area. We had off duty guys in our cells, but the hydrants had no water. We did whatever we could. The rigs actually were starting to become in danger of lighting up themselves.

We called trying to get water returned to us over here. Finally one of the members thought, we used it for a good period of time, we forced the door on one of the buildings there and used the water from the roof tanks. It was left in the gravity tanks. We took a two and a half line out of one of the doors. We were able to advance down Greenwich, stopping, putting fire out in the street, the cars and from getting into exposures.

They were worried about 7 at the time. The decision was made not to do it, not to get anybody else hurt. That's when we backed up and they said let's wait for this other building before we continue any work, because where the bridge was in the direct path of 7. It was the north bridge where we were looking initially.

We operated with the Tower Ladder there effectively on those buildings that were within our reach. Then the other part was unfortunately we couldn't do anything at the pedestrian bridge but the concern of 7, which they had no idea which way it was going to collapse and they just knew it was going to collapse and they positioned us outside of it.

The company to the south of us was -- it was a double digit -- I don't know if it was 14. I'm just stabbing at numbers now. It was just so much debris between cars, it was hard to see what was good and bad, stuff like that. But that was our main position right there. I would say from approximately about at least an hour, hour and a half between 4 and 5. They made us evacuate due to the fear of 7 coming down.

The Chief and myself went down to that area where we they wanted us to work. Seeing what we would need; torches, air bags, anything else like that to operate at that bridge.

The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110472.PDF

23. I remember finding Engine Company 6's rig, stripping that rig of fittings and hose to hook up to anybody else. I remember at that time also they were worried about Building 7 because when the second tower came down, they were worried about parts of – actually, when the first tower came down, they were worried about parts of Building 7 collapsing, so I remember getting into Building 7 and searching. I got separated from the crew that I had gone down with, because I stayed at the pump panel. They had gone around the West Street side of the building and into the rubble.

I remember coming out of the building now because they were afraid of Building 7 coming down, and all the other buildings around it getting knocked down. So they took us out of the building. –Firefighter Anthony Salerno http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110309.PDF

24. Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 o'clock, that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, we've got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and that's when 7 collapsed. Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess. –Lieutenant William Ryan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110117.PDF

25. But anyway, more to the point, a rumor started to develop that tower 7 was going to fall on us or nearby us. Having just lived through the collapse and having Dr. Kelly just live through the collapse with both of us getting buried, this was not a very pleasing feeling. It really does make me understand a lot about psychological stress that can occur in these events because I would not have had the same worry about this if I hadn't just come through one of them. We went outside to speak to the Chief, the head Chief. His name is Chief Haring. Great guy. But he said, you know, it's not going to be a problem. Tower 7 may collapse. It's not going to be anywhere near here. It's not going to be a problem. But we were really concerned about this.

By the time we were about done with this, we interacted with Chief Haring again. He basically was incredulous and said: "What are you crazy? You've moved into the collapse zone, and if this collapse occurs, the dust cloud is going to knock out that entire park. You're going to be useless there. You've made it worse."

About midway into setting up physically the second triage area, hanging the IV bags and everything, a tremendous noise occurs, and it's so loud that everybody rushes to the rear of the Pace University building, all the doctors, all the nurses. When the noise was over, we went to the front. The dust cloud from tower 7, just like Chief Haring said, wiped out that park. If we had had any supplies there, any doctors there, they wouldn't have been killed. I mean, it wasn't that massive the debris that fell on the park, but they would have been useless. The dust cloud went all the way up to the door of Pace University, up the stairs, across the street, right up to the door, the lobby door. –Dr. David Prezant

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110212.PDF

26. "Then we were just hanging out watching building 7 ready to go." –Firefighter Steve Piccerill

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110330.PDF

27. We were down there for a while until we were ordered off, because they were worried about Seven coming down. –Firefighter Michael Palone http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110314.PDF

28. I know when the Lieutenant told us where to go, that wasn’t the correct staging area, cause we were still too close to the buildings. They wanted everyone away from it. That’s when there was a third building that collapsed around that time.

Q: Building Seven, which would be over here.

A: Okay, 7 World Trade, that one collapsed.

Q: 7 World Trade collapsed a little later.

A: Yeah, a lot later. –EMT Alwish Moncherry

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110127.PDF

29. From there, I think that's when 7 was going to come down. So they backed everybody out, somewhere near Church & Trinity, I guess. –Firefighter Peter Metzger

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110424.PDF

30. Eventually later in the day we had to evacuate that site because number Seven collapsed. Prior to its collapse, we evacuated all the supplies, the doctors, and moved over to Pace University into the lobby, and they set up another medical area. Most injuries we treated were eye injuries from the debris, basically cleaning out people's eyes. –EMS Lieutenant John Mendez

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110175.PDF

31. I think they were fearing about 7 World Trade coming down. –Lt. Anthony Mancuso.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110399.PDF

32. At that point they were worried that 7 was coming down so they were calling for everyone to back out. –Firefighter Matthew Long http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110021.PDF

33. 7 World Trade Center? I couldn’t even watch that. I said that’s enough. I refused to watch that. I took R-and-R. I said you guys can watch that one. But they got streams and they contained the fire. I mean, the objective was nobody else got killed, the fire did not jump the street. –Battalion Chief Frank Vallebuona http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...vallebunoa.html

34. We were starting to gather over there, and we heard that there was a building in danger of collapse. This was a couple hours later, maybe, and that huge building -- it was on that block. When that came down, we all ran down to the west side. –Firefighter Stephen Jezycki

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110050.PDF

35. Lieutenant Lowney spoke to, asked us to leave the area, they were concerned about 7 World Trade Center collapsing. –Firefighter George Holzman

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110467.PDF

36. Then at one point they chased us out of there for fear of collapse of a building; I believe it was Seven World Trade. So they got us out of there because they didn't know which way that building was going to collapse. When Seven World Trade did collapse, we were in the Woolworth Building. You couldn't even see. It was unbelievable. You couldn't even see your hand in front of your face. That's how much dust and debris was flying around. –FDNY Captain John Henricksen

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110069.PDF

37. We heard a mayday for everybody to get out of the building (Verizon Bldg., next to WTC 7) -- no, I'm sorry, an "urgent," three "urgents," and we came out of the building. I'd say that was like an hour and a half, two hours later. We were then positioned on Vesey Street between North End and the West Side Highway because there was an imminent collapse [warning] on 7 World Trade, and it did collapse. –Firefighter Brian Fitzpatrick http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110256.PDF

38. The only thing that had me really frustrated was they wasn't really trying to let us go back down there. (After the collapse of the second building). I understand after it was unsafe. Cause I guess after that 7 came down. Well 7 didn't come down until like 4, 5 o'clock. So I was just wondering, they just kept us cooped in there for a long time. –EMT Jarjean Felton

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110041.PDF

39. During the search we were ordered by one of the battalions to move north above -- towards Stuyvesant High School -- under the overpass at Chambers Street, because at that point it was feared that Six [sic: Seven] World Trade Center was going to collapse. It did so later in the afternoon. –Lieutenant Francis Farrington http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110320.PDF

40. Captain Michael Currid, the president of the Uniformed Fire Officers Association, said that some time after the collapse of the Twin Towers, “Someone from the city's Office of Emergency Management” told him that building 7 was “basically a lost cause and we should not lose anyone else trying to save it," after which the firefighters in the building were told to get out. (Murphy, Dean E., 2002. September 11: An Oral History. New York: Doubleday pp. 175-76)

41. While we were searching the subbasements (of building 6) they decided that Seven World Trade Center which was across the street was going to collapse, so they called us out. We were so far down we couldn’t hear them, but we came out after we searched the subbasements. Actually we came out on the Seven World Trade Center parkway street when came out they were calling us on the radio to tell us to get out. I then reported that the search was negative and then they wouldn’t let anybody near the site pretty much because Seven World Trade Center was going to come down. –Battalion Chief Frank Congiusta http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110425.PDF

42. We were ordered down from the tower ladder because of a possible collapse at Tower 7.

–Firefighter Pete Castellano http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110398.PDF

43. The reason we were given for why we were moving was that 7 World Trade Center was going to collapse or was at risk of collapsing. So we must have been somewhere in this area where we would have had a problem with that. ...They wanted us to move the treatment sector because of 7 World Trade Center was imminently to collapse, which, of course, it did –Paramedic Joseph Cahill

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110085.PDF

44. The rest of the day we were unloading trucks we were just doing whatever little things we could do, but they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to fall. –Firefighter Timothy Burke

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110488.PDF

45. "We were asked to go out of that area due to a risk of collapse in 7 WTC. "

–PAPD P.O. Thomas Johnson http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports02.pdf page 10.

46. ...And that was one of the directions from the command post, to make sure we clear the collapse zone from 7 and this is a 600-foot-tall building, so we had to clear a 600-foot radius from that building. –Battalion Chief John Norman http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/norman.html

47. "The three of us along with 2 firemen searched that area until we were told to leave due to 7 possibly collapsing." –PAPD P.O. Thomas Hering http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports02.pdf p.13.

48. All later attempts to return to the WTC were stopped by the pending, and eventual collapse of Building 7 and the uncontrolled fires. –PAPD P.O. Lawrence Guarneri http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 34

49. A while later, an NYFD supervisor approached and ordered the rescuers away from the area because 7 WTC was in danger of collapse also. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 49

50. At about 1300 hrs between repeating officers fruitless efforts to locate fellow officers and the warning of building number Seven's possible collapse I started to walk uptown on West Street in hope of locating the PAPD Command Center. –Christopher Bergmann, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 52

51. An FDNY supervisor deemed the area we were in unsafe, and assisted people out of the immediate area. –M. McAdams, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 72

52. Reports of gas main leaks, bombs, small arms fire and buildings about to collapse forced us to again relocate further north on West Street. –Daniel A. Carbonaro, PAPD Lieutenant http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 76

[The next three quotes are similar...from written reports by officers in the same command]

53. Due to fire and instability of buildings at the WTC site we were directed to the MCC gym.

– PAPD P.O. Thomas Mancini, http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 86

54. Due to fire and instability at the WTC site we were redirected to the MCC gym.

–PAPD P.O. Quirk http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 88

55. Due to the fire and instability of the buildings at the WTC site we were directed to the MCC gym.

–PAPD P.O. Christensen http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 89

56. Several attempts were made to assist the trapped, but we were kept out due to the uncontrolled fires and other building collapsing around us. –PAPD P.O. Patrick Versage http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 95

57. Returned to the site on 2-3 occasions...in an effort to help with evacuation but was stopped due to the imminent collapse of 7 WTC. –PAPD LT. William Oorbeek http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 97

58. Unfortunately we could not do much more because of fear that other buildings surrounding the Trade Center were going to come down. –PAPD P.O. John McClain http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports04.pdf page 33

59. For the remainder of the day , we made trips to the scene to assist in the search. Due to confusion and the threat of damaged buildings falling we were forced to retreat each time. We were on West & Vesey when # 7 collapsed. –PAPD Sgt. Stone http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports04.pdf page 60

60. So we were doing searches, stretching lines, we were doing everything that we could possibly do. We were kind of overwhelmed at the task at hand. Like I said we operated for about three and half hours and then we went to take breather, and as we moved out of the area we weren’t permitted back in the area by that time by a number of Chiefs that were in charge. –FDNY Lieutenant Brendan Whelan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110360.PDF

61. Once they got us back together and organized somewhat, they sent us back down to Vesey, where we stood and waited for Seven World Trade Center to come down. –Firefighter Frank Sweeney http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110113.PDF

62. But they weren’t really getting [sic] guys get too deep into it because of the possible pending collapse of Seven World Trade. ...We were staged there a good part of the afternoon until Seven finally did collapse. –Firefighter David Moriarty http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110228.PDF

63. …they told us to evacuate the area for tower number Seven, building Seven, when they knew that was coming down… –Firefighter Dominick Muschello http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110249.PDF

64. …Captain Verraile from 24 Engine said, “Hey, let’s just back everything off here because this building is coming down.” –Firefighter Howie Scott http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110365.PDF

65. Then they said that the 47 story hotel building—I think it’s number Seven—was about to come down. ...We were around for the rest of the afternoon. At about 5:30 that did come down. –Firefighter Edward Mecner http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110391.PDF

66. They were saying building Seven was going to collapse, so we regrouped and went back to our rig. We waited for building Seven to come down. –Firefighter James Wallace http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110409.PDF

67. At 5:20, No. 7 finally falls. They've been waiting for it to go so they can move the firemen and search-and-rescue teams in. With the thunderous collapse, firemen bolt up from where they've been camped, on the south side of the Embassy Suites. Some have been sitting on plush hotel furniture carted into the street, eating food from the Mexican restaurant next door. There's a stampede over pickaxes and oxygen tanks. They head out toward the crushed fire trucks. "They're looking for their brothers," says an ambulance driver. http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/featu...5183/index.html

68. Now, World Trade Center 7 was burning and I was thinking to myself, how come they're not trying to put this fire out? I didn't realize how much they had because my view was obstructed. All I could see was the upper floor. At some point, Frank Fellini said, now we've got hundreds of guys out there, hundreds and hundreds, and that's on the West Street side alone. He said to me, Nick, you've got to get those people out of there. I thought to myself, out of where? Frank, what do you want, Chief? He answered, 7 World Trade Center, imminent collapse, we've got to get those people out of there. – Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...z/visconti.html

Here’s a woman who thought the FDNY “brought the building down”

69. Indira Singh, a volunteer EMT: "What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon after noon, after midday on 9/11, we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down. ... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down because I heard that they were going to bring it down because it was unstable, because of the collateral damage. ... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University, a little further away, because Building 7 was gonna come down or being brought down. ... There was another panic around four o'clock because they were bringing the building down and people seemed to know this ahead of time, so people were panicking again and running." (KPFA, 4/27/2005)

70. "So when I get to the command post, they just had a flood of guys standing there. They were just waiting for 7 to come down. ... I made it down Vesey Street to just in front of the overpass of 7 World Trade. People were saying don't stand under there, it's going to come down. ... So at that point we were a little leery about how the bridge was tied in, so no one was really going onto it, and then they were also saying 7 was going to come down. They chased everyone off the block." – FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy (FDNY interview, 10/11/2001)

71. "And at that point they were worried that 7 was coming down so they were calling for everyone to back out. ... Because they were just adamant about 7 coming down immediately. I think we probably got out of that rubble and 18 minutes later is when 7 came down." – Firefighter Matthew Long: (FDNY interview, 10/9/2001)

72. Fire Captain Brenda Berkman: "We no sooner got going on something there when a chief came along and said, 'Everybody's got to leave the area. We're afraid that Seven World Trade is going to fall down.' (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

and:

"After being ordered back because of the fear that yet another building was about to collapse (7 World Trade Center, 40+ stories), Brenda [berkman] and her crew went to find other firefighters who might have some tools or a radio. ... That afternoon, 7 World Trade Center came down. 'We had cleared an enormous collapse zone for that, and it still wasn't big enough. When the thing came down, the rubble and the dust came across the West Side Highway, over and past the rubble from the towers that was there.'" (Linda Willing, "Report from Ground Zero: The World Trade Center Collapse," FireWork, 9/2001)

73. Byron Pitts, CBS News correspondent: "About an hour ago, World Trade Center building number 7 collapsed. ...It was the one calamity that was not a surprise. Police had evacuated the area hours ago, fearful building number 7 would indeed fall down." (CBS News, 9/11/2001)

74. Kansas City Star: "About 4:30 p.m., word went out to evacuate the area. Officials were worried that Building 7 of the Trade Center complex would collapse." (David Hayes, "Amid despair, photographer's work brought hope," Kansas City Star, 3/28/2004)

75. Mark Jacobson, reporter, New York Magazine: "Hours later, I sat down beside another, impossibly weary firefighter. ... Then, almost as a non sequitur, the fireman indicated the building in front of us, maybe 400 yards away. 'That building is coming down,' he said with a drained casualness. 'Really?' I asked. At 47 stories, it would be a skyscraper in most cities, centerpiece of the horizon. But in New York, it was nothing but a nondescript box with fire coming out of the windows. 'When?' 'Tonight ... Maybe tomorrow morning.' This was around 5:15 p.m. I know because five minutes later, at 5:20, the building, 7 World Trade Center, crumbled." (Mark Jacobson, "The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll," New York Magazine, 3/27/2006)

76. Christine Haughney, reporter, Washington Post: "Then a policeman directed me north. The Solomon Smith Barney building--Building Seven--was about to collapse." (Chris Bull and Sam Erman, At Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

77. Peter DeMarco, reporter, New York Daily News: "Seven or eight blocks down Greenwich Street, the No. 7 World Trade building, a smaller, forty-story structure, was on fire. The street was closed; the building was going to collapse." (Chris Bull and Sam Erman, At Ground Zero, 2002, p. 97)

78. Fire Chief Joseph Pfeifer: "Yes, I watched 7. At one point, we were standing on the west side of West Street and Vesey. And I remember Chief Nigro coming back at that point saying I don't want anybody else killed and to take everybody two blocks up virtually to North End and Vesey, which is a good ways up. And we stood there and we watched 7 collapse." ("WTC: This Is Their Story," Firehouse, 4/2002)

79. EMT Jason Charles: "So we started heading over to where Building 7 was at and they were like Building 7 is going to collapse, you can't go over there, this and that, and there was another building that they thought was going to collapse that was like right behind the triage center, the building that we were in." (FDNY interview, 1/23/2002)

80. Fire Lieutenant Roy David: "At Pace University we had -- we set up -- I'm sorry, we set up in that lobby of that building, the lobby and the actual whole first floor. There was a threat of collapse of building number seven, so 225, we had to evacuate it." (FDNY Interview, 10/12/2001)

81. Liz Gonzalez, reporter, Telemundo/Channel 47: "They started evacuating the area because they thought a third building was going to go down. We decided to stay. We saw the third building crash." (Newseum, Running Toward Danger, 2002, p. 209)

82. Sara Kugler, reporter, the Associated Press: "I saw hundreds of firefighters leaning against buildings, sitting on trucks, eating fruit and water that the Red Cross was handing out. 'Where are all the injured?' I asked. 'They are not letting us in. It's not stable,' said the firefighters. ... All of a sudden Seven World Trade Center started to collapse." (Newseum, Running Toward Danger, 2002, p. 210)

83. Fire Chief Frank Fellini: So for the next five or six hours we kept firefighters from working anywhere near that building, which included the whole north side of the World Trade Center complex. Eventually around 5:00 or a little after, building number seven came down." (FDNY Interview, 12/3/2001)

84. Firefighter TJ Mundy: "The other building, #7, was fully involved, and he was worried about the next collapse." (Report from Ground Zero by Dennis Smith. Penguin, 2002)

85. Harry Meyers, NYPD Safety Chief "My biggest concern at the time was #7. It was burning, and I felt that was a danger to the rescuers and to any trapped survivors there might be. ...We were all pretty much on board that tower 7 was going to fall. We just didn't know when and in what direction. (Report from Ground Zero by Dennis Smith. Penguin, 2002. p. 160

86. Deputy Chief Peter Hayden "We still had 7 World Trade Center, which was burning also. We were worried about that collapsing, and it did collapse, about six hours later. There was a conscious decision to let that building burn and just keep everybody clear." (Report from Ground Zero by Dennis Smith. Penguin, 2002. p. 32)

1. The major concern at that time was number Seven, building number Seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. –FDNY Chief Frank Fellini

2. At that time, other firefighters started showing up, Deputy Battalion Chief Paul Ferran of the 41 Battalion, and James Savastano of the First Division assigned to the Second Battalion showed up and we attempted to search and extinguish, at the time which was small pockets of fire in 7 World Trade Center. We were unaware of the damage in the front of 7, because we were entering from the northeast entrance. We weren't aware of the magnitude of the damage in the front of the building. – FDNY Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110313.PDF

3. [shortly after the tower collapses] I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any fire at that time. Deputy ––Chief Nick Visconti http://tinyurl.com/paqux

4. A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that the façade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Lieutenant William Melarango http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110045.PDF

5. I think they said they had seven to ten floors that were freestanding and they weren't going to send anyone in. –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110055.PDF

6. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

Firehouse Magazine: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. – Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

7. After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion [the collapse of the north tower]. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said. http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

8. Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway, in a letter to me.

9. So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did. – FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110462.PDF

10. Just moments before the south tower collapsed and, you know, when it happened we didn't know it was the south tower. We thought it was the north tower. There was a reporter of some sort, female with blond hair and her cameraman, an oriental fellow. They were setting up outside 7 World Trade Center, just east of the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving doors of number 7.

We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays. Everybody started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.

Q. Were you injured?

A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass impaled in my head, but once I was able to get all this debris and rubble off of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe, it was very thick dust, you couldn't see. We heard some sounds. We reached out and felt our way around. I managed to find some other people in this lower lobby. We crawled over towards the direction where we thought the door was and as we approached it the door cracked open a little, so we had the lights from the loading bay. We made our way over there. The loading bay doors were 3-fourths of the way shut when this happened, so they took a lot of dust in there, but everyone in those bays was safe and secure. We had face to face contact with Chief Maggio and Captain Nahmod. They told me – I said do whatever you need to do, get these people out of here. Go, go towards the water. –EMS Division Chief Jon Peruggia

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110160.PDF

11. You could see the damage at 7 World Trade Center, the damage into the AT&T building.

–FDNY Firefighter Vincent Palmieri http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110258.PDF

12. At this point, 7, which is right there on Vesey, the whole corner of the building was missing. I was thinking to myself we are in a bad place, because it was the corner facing us. –Fred Marsilla, FDNY

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110399.PDF

13. The way we got into the loading dock [of WTC 7] was not the way we were getting out. It was obstructed.

Q. The door was blocked?

A. Yeah, and we found our way -- we walked across the loading dock area, and we found there was another door. We went in that door, and from there we were directed to -- I really guess it was like a basement area of the building, but we were directed to an opposite door. –Dr. Michael Guttenberg , NYC Office of Medical Affairs http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110005.PDF

14. We eventually ended up meeting after the second explosion, three of us met up here, but I didn't see a lot of the people that were with me until two, three days later. I got word that they were okay. For instance, Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda, who were at 7 World Trade Center, they got trapped in there and had to like climb in and out and get out because that building also became very damaged supposedly and they were there. We thought they were dead. I guess he was in an area where Commissioner Tierney might have been, I believe. I think she was in 7 also. –Paramedic Manuel Delgado http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110004.PDF

(After collapse of south tower)

15. The decision was either to go left or right and we ended up going right, between the two buildings, in the alleyway on the north, which turned out to be the right direction because apparently there was a lot of debris and part of 7 down already. Also, I did notice as I was making my exit the sound of the firefighters' alarms indicating that they were down. I did remember that as well but just could not see anything. –Dr. Glenn Asaeda http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives...pts/9110062.PDF

16. I saw the firefighter. There were people screaming out of one of these two buildings over here saying they couldn't get out, and my partner took one straggler fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to break the door because the door obviously had shifted or something. They couldn't get the door open.

Q: That was 7 World Trade Center?

A: I believe it was 7. Maybe it was 5. It was at the back end of it because I do remember the telephone company [which is next to building 7]. So I think it was the back end of 7, I think right over here at that point, and they couldn't get out. Then I had ran down the block and I flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder, which they had like a vestibule that you couldn't like really reach the people because the ladder wouldn't reach. So they went and got other resources, they went inside the building, and I told my partner that it wasn't safe and that we need to go because everything around us was like falling apart. –EMT Nicole Ferrell http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110304.PDF

17. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower. – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

18. At that point, they said that Seven World Trade had no face and it was ready to collapse. – EMT Mercedes Rivera: (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 29)

19. You see the white smoke, you see the thing leaning like this? It's definitely going. There's no way to stop it. 'Cause you have to go up in there to put it out, and it's already, the structural integrity is not there. –Unidentified firefighter in this video.

20. As far as I was concerned, we were still trapped. I was hopeful. things were looking a whole lot better now than they were just a few minutes earlier, but we were a long way from safe and sound. Five World Trade Center was fully involved, Six World Trade Center was roaring pretty good, and behind them Seven World Trade Center was teetering on collapse.

The buildings just behind him and to his left were looking like they too might collapse at any time, and there were whole chunks of concrete falling to both sides. Flames dancing everywhere. The small-arms detonations were kicking up a notch or two, and it sounded like this poor guy was being fired at, by snipers or unseen terrorists, at close range. (Last Man Down by Richard Picciotto, FDNY Battalion Commander Penguin Books, 2002. page 191)

*****************

These people must all be lying, too.

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert LaRocca

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110081.PDF

2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110447.PDF

3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...z/visconti.html

4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110018.PDF

5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.

–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)

6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110472.PDF

7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110207.PDF

8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110222.PDF

9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110205.PDF

10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports02.pdf page 48.

11. At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 49

[Note: the fires in 7 were probably not mainly due to damage from the south tower, but from the north.]

12. So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts.

Q: Why was building Seven on fire? Was that flaming debris from tower two, from tower two that fell onto that building and lit it on fire?

A: Correct. Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110413.PDF

13. "We were down about a block from the base of the World Trade Center towers about an hour ago. And there was a great deal of concern at that time, the firemen said building number 7 was going to collapse, building number five was in danger of collapsing. And there's so little they can do to try to fight the fires in these buildings, because the fires are so massive. And so much of the buildings continues to fall into the street. When you're down there, Dan, you hear smaller secondary explosions going off every 15 or 20 minutes, and so it's an extremely dangerous place to be."

–CBS-TV News Reporter Vince DeMentri http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.....explosions.wmv

14. Well, they said that's (7) fully involved at this time. This was a fully involved building. I said, all right, they're not coming for us for a while. Now you're trapped in this rubble, and you're trying to get a grasp of an idea of what's going on there. I heard on the handy talky that we are now fighting a 40-story building fully involved.

Now you're trapped in the rubble and the guys who are there are fighting the worst high-rise fire in the history of New York or history of the world, probably, I don't know, 40, story building fully involved, I guess that was probably the worst.

I was, needless to say, scared to death that something else was going to fall on us, that this building was going to come down and we were all going to die, after surviving the worst of it. [Note: I deleted the link this account, and searching the net for the text doesn’t turn up anything. This sounds like an account from north tower stairwell B survivor. Anyone who knows for sure, let me know.]

15. And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time. We could see it. ... the fire at 7 World Trade was working its way from the front of the building northbound to the back of the building. There was no way there could be water put on it, because there was no water in the area. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110261.PDF

16. The time was approximately 11a.m. Both of the WTC towers were collapsed and the streets were covered with debris. Building #7 was still standing but burning. ...We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. –PAPD P.O. William Connors http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports04.pdf page 69

17. "There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse.

We're kind of caught in traffic and people and things, and everything's going on. We hear over the fire portable, "Everybody evacuate the site. It's going to collapse." Mark Steffens starts yelling, "Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! We've got to go! We've got to go! It's going to collapse." I turned around, and I piped up real loud and said, "Stay in the frigging car. Roll the windows up. It's pancake collapsing. We'll be fine. The debris will quit and the cloud will come through. Just stay in the car." We pulled the car over, turned around and just watched it pancake. We had a dust cloud but nothing like it was before. –Paramedic Louis Cook http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110103.PDF

(Building 7 fire makes rescuer of NT stairwell victim’s route impassable, just before collapse):

I remember it was bad and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way, that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of floors, just fully involved, rolling.

...So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it and I remember it would have at one point been an easier path to go towards our right, but being building 7 -- that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with that fire, we decided to stay away from that because things were just crackling, falling and whatnot. So as I’m going back, that fire that was on my right is now on my left. I’m backtracking and that fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we put down our masks, which at this point started to realize maybe it would have been good thing if we had this mask on the way back, but then again between the fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was Johnny Colon the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a different rescue. He was carrying somebody out.

He had called me and said “Hey Jerry don’t try and get back out the way you went in which was big heads up move because he said that building was rolling on top of the building that we were passing. That building was on fire and likely to collapse more too.

Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we can get out this way because it really didn’t look good with that fire and my guy telling me that you better not because of the area we crawled in was unattainable now too. ...we started going back the other way.

Q: Would that be towards West Street?

A: That would have been back towards what I know is the Winter Garden....[west]

–Firefighter Gerard Suden http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110022.PDF

18. I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "xxxx 'em all. Let 'em burn." He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys. Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out." –Lieutenant William Ryan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110117.PDF

19. I walked around the building to get back to the command post and that's when they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down. ...They had three floors of fire on three separate floors, probably 10, 11 and 15 it looked like, just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said 'we know.' –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110055.PDF

20. We were champing at the bit," says WCBS-TV reporter Vince DeMentri of his decision to sneak behind police barricades and report from 7 World Trade Center a half-hour before it collapsed. "I knew the story was in there." But after he and his cameraman slipped past officers, they lost all sense of direction. "From outside this zone, you could figure out where everything was," he says. "But inside, it was all destruction and blown-out buildings, and we had no clue. I walked into one building, but I had no idea where I was. The windows were all blown out. Computers, desks, furniture, and people's possessions were strewn all over." He found a picture of a little girl lying in the rubble. Then he realized that No. 7, aflame, was about fifteen to twenty feet ahead of him. "I looked up Barclay Street," he says. "There was nobody out. No bodies, no injured. Nobody. There were mounds of burning debris. It was like opening a broiler." http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/featu...5183/index.html

21. They are worried that number 7 is burning and they are talking about not ceasing operations.

–Deputy Commissioner Frank Gribbon http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110167.PDF

22. There were hundreds of firefighters waiting to -- they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down as it was on fire. It was too dangerous to go in and fight the fire. –Assistant Commissioner James Drury http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110098.PDF

23. We assisted some FDNY personnel who were beginning to attempt to fight the fire at 7 WTC. We assisted in dragging hose they needed to bring water into the building. –Kenneth Kohlmann PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports04.pdf page 26

24. My first thoughts when I came down a little further into the site, south of Chambers Street, was, "Where am I?" I didn't recognize it. Obviously, the towers were gone. The only thing that remained standing was a section of the Vista Hotel. Building 7 was on fire. That was ready to come down. –Charlie Vitchers, Ground Zero Superintendent http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/profile...vitchers_t.html

25. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

26. At that point, Seven World Trade had 12 stories of fire in it. They were afraid it was going to collapse on us, so they pulled everybody out. We couldn't do anything. – Firefighter Maureen McArdle-Schulman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

27. The 7 World Trade Center was roaring. All we could think is we were an Engine Company, we have got to get them some water. We need some water you know. With that, we positioned the rig, I don't know, 3 quarters of a block away maybe. A fire boat was going to relay water to us. I don't know if I have things in the right order, whatever, if we were getting water out of a hydrant first. Jesus Christ --

Q. Captain said you were getting water. You were draining a vacuum?

A. It was draining away from us. Right. We had to be augmented. I think that's when the fire boat came. I think the fire boats supplied us. Of course you don't see that. You just see the (inaudible) way and you know, we are hooking up and we wound up supplying the Tower Ladder there. I just remember feeling like helpless, like everybody there was doomed and there is -- I just felt like there was absolutely nothing we could do. I want to just go back a little bit.–Firefighter Kevin Howe http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110469.PDF

28. "When I got out and onto a clear pile, I see that 7 World Trade Center and the customs house have serious fire. Almost every window has fire. It is an amazing site. –Captain Jay Jonas, Ladder 6. (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002. P. 103)

29. Firefighter TJ Mundy: "The other building, #7, was fully involved, and he was worried about the next collapse." (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002.)

30. 7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved. It was unbelievable. –Firefighter Steve Modica http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/modica.html

31. So I attempted to get in through the Barkley Street ramp which is on Barkley (sic) and West Broadway, but I was being held back by the fire department, because 7 World Trade, which is above the ramp, was now fully engulfed.

–PAPD K-9 Sergeant David Lim http://www.911report.com/media/davidlim.pdf

32. We could hear fires crackling. We didn’t know it at the time, but No. 7 World Trade Center and No. 5 World Trade Center were immediately adjacent to us and they were roaring, they were on fire. Those were the sounds that we were hearing. ...At the same time, No. 5 World Trade Center, No. 6 World Trade Center and No. 7 World Trade Center were roaring. They were on fire. And they were right next to us. So we have all that smoke that we’re dealing with.

–FDNY Capt. Jay Jonas http://archive.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jonas.htm

I guess all these first responders are lying, are all part of the coverup, right?

Second, Jack is not being dishonest by cropping the pictures...

But Duane, you basically accused Dave (IIRC) of being dishonest when he altered an image to explain a view. Never mind he showed the original unaltered view, and told people what he had done and why. You said something along the lines that there is no excuse for altering the image.

Jack did not show the complete, uncropped images. In fact, he labeled them with the full Apollo reference number without mentioning the cropping. This can give the impression that the image is the full, uncropped image.

If you look back in my work, I try to always label items as crops from an image, unless they are clearly a crop (e.g. an image of a boot rather than the whole astronaut). I might have missed one or two, but most always they are labeled.

In the current case, the cropping gives the impression that the images were taken from the same location. When we see the uncropped images, you can see significant differences in the two photographer positions / camera settings. Two images side-by-side, cropped and possibly resized, can give the unwary reader a false impression.

I have no problems with an image being cropped to show the detail you want... as long as you tell people it is cropped and preferably show the original uncropped image.

You know, as a kid I would have LOVED the stuff you can buy today. We'd use cardboard boxes, plastic containers, etc. I always wanted to order one of the submarines you could get from the back of the comics....

*sigh*

I used to have an ejection seat from a Vampire jet trainer. For the dead-set spotter aviation geek, there is nothing cooler than having an ejection seat for an armchair... unless you have your own aircraft in the back yard.

Anyway, back on track. Duane, you mentioned a $15,000 figure a couple of times. I haven't read back through the thread... what is that figure referring to / based on?

I disagree. To me it is extremely apt. I have seen instances where a simple explanation exists, and when you try to tell people of it you are accused of either being "9/11 disinfo agent", a "sheeple", a "Bush lover", etc. The personality displayed by the "twoofer" in the cartoon is almost the same as displayed by some people who claim that 9/11 was a massive lie.

I don't think you get my point. Political cartoons are satire. Satire only works if there is some truth in what it depicts. If it's also genuinely funny, it should make everyone laugh, even the people being satirized. That is good satire. Now tell me how McDonald's not putting a guy's french fries in the bag could possibly relate to a government conspiracy. Political cartoons are supposed to make people laugh, not make them scratch their heads. Plus there's the over-the-top depiction of the troofer as ugly and demonstratively obnoxious. Gee, which drawn character are we supposed to like and identify with, without even reading it? The cartoonist exhibits zero imagination and humor. That's all I'm saying. But if you see imagination and humor in it, if you call it satire, so be it.

Ron,

We'll have to agree to disagree. I see the cartoon as apt and quite funny... because I see a lot of truth in it.

You don't see what I see, and have other views.

Neither one of us can proclaim ourselves right, and neither of us can call the other person wrong. We simply have different views.

Drop by the cartoonist's website and see if there are any other of the cartoon which you do find funny. I particularly like the drawing style; I have zero artistic talent but the 'artwork' appeals to me.

Cheers!

Peter,

No, I did not mean it in jest. There is a world of difference in claiming no aircraft hit the Pentagon, or that the WTC were brought down by demolition, and the claim that certain forces - other than Al Queda or Bin Laden - were responsible for organising the events of 9/11.

I am yet to be convinced, but I acknowledge that it is certainly possible that a group - official or otherwise, rogue or otherwise, domestic or otherwise - organised the hijacking of the aircraft on 9/11. The hijackers may have been agents (unlikely) or have been genuine but recruited by a front organisation (possible) to carry out the attacks. I have seen no convincing evidence that any part of the US government actively aided the attacks.

Now, I don't think this is correct. I think it was just a terrorist attack. I think the Bush administration took advantage of it to advance whatever political agenda they saw fit - but I don't think they organised, aided, or had credible foreknowledge of the attacks.

Can anyone direct me to a news story or press release naming the General relieved of command, a very rare occassion, or a followup story on the Sept. 14 stand down, test and reup exercise?

I haven't seen any followup.

Thanks,

BK

Bill,

Are you aware of any senior military personnel being "cashiered" for a supposed error, but not having been reported per se?

I am. Sea King Shark 02. Many people were held to account ... justly or otherwise. many people, including very senior Officers, were dismissed.

No details of them have been released, but I know two of those 'senior Officers', one particularly well.

The media does not always follow up on these matters; is there a public source you can check to see if anyone has been relieve of command? Transferred?