Bill Cheslock
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Posts posted by Bill Cheslock
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Regarding Clint's Scotch at the Press Club, I thought alcohol on the road was strictly verboten, whether you were on the clock or not. Am I wrong?
Brendan
Clint Hill and the other SS agents who consumed alcohol the night
and morning before the assassination were on the clock, around the clock,
or 24 hour shifts if you will. The regulation states:
"However, all members of the White House Detail and special agents
cooperating with them on Presidential and similar protective assignments are
considered to be subject to call for official duty at any time while on travel
status. Therefore, the use of intoxicating liquor of any kind, including beer
and wine, by members of the White House Detail and special agents cooperating
with them, or by special agents on similar assignments, while they are in
a travel status, is prohibited." (SS manual, Section 10, Chapter 1, p. 7).
In addition, Chief of the Secret Service Rowley, in his Warren
Commission testimony, was asked the following:
Mr. Rankin: "When they (SS agents) are out on a trip of this kind, Chief Rowley,
as I understand your regulations, it is understood by the regulations and by the
Secret Service that they are on duty all the time, that is, subject to call?"
Mr. Rowley: "Yes, sir." (WCH V, p. 458)
I might add that Chief Rowley told the Commission that he spoke
personally to the agents in question, "and they just thought while they were
there they would have a drink. It was one of those situations." (WCH V p. 458)
Rowley also told the Commission ( I especially "like" this one),
"The important thing was that it was pointed out to them this was wrong, this
wa a violation. These men are young with futures, they realize the true situation,
innocent as they may have seemed to think it was." (WCH V p. 458)
As I see it, John Kennedy was young and also had a future. There is
nothing "innocent" about the violations they accumulated while at the Press Club
and the Cellar.
Bill C
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I guess that explains the fruit drinks. They weren't there to drink but to look at the underwear.
Smells like a bridge for sale to me.
- lee
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:WJJXGS...us&ct=clnk&cd=2
From 1959 through 1970, The Cellar in downtown Fort Worth was an all-night jazz coffeehouse and blues club featuring music until 6 a.m. nightly -- or maybe daily -- fueled by complimentary drinks that were half Everclear grain alcohol served by college-age women in black bikinis or lingerie. Dallas and Houston also had Cellars.http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...displayonly=EXC
Kennedy had come to Texas to heal some quarrels in the Democratic Party and to raise money for the '64 campaign, and the tour had started in Houston and San Antonio. After a Thursday-night speech in Houston, he had flown to Fort Worth to spend the night and attend an early-morning Chamber of Commerce breakfast before taking a ten-minute flight to Dallas for a parade and luncheon speech. The tour was to end with a huge fund-raising dinner in Austin. Governor John Connally had convinced Kennedy that only in Austin, the state capital, could you count on getting people from the rest of the state to come to a fund-raiser. People from Houston wouldn't go to San Antonio for a fund-raiser, Connally told Kennedy, and people from Fort Worth damn sure wouldn't go to Dallas. He was right about that. When Amon Carter was running the Star-Telegram, he made a point of taking a sack lunch when he had business in Dallas, claiming he did not care for the city's restaurants. Dallas repaid the courtesy when Fort Worth built an airport between the two cities and named it Carter Field. Dallas residents declined to use the airport, in large part because of the name, and the airport eventually failed. (There was and is such a rivalry between the two cities that the only project they ever cooperated on is the current airport. Planners were careful not to name it after anyone from either city.) The visiting reporters had no interest in our airports, of course. What they did want to know about was a local after-hours joint called the Cellar. The Cellar had no liquor license, but if you were a friend of the owner, a former stock-car racer named Pat Kirkwood, the drink of choice, Kool-Aid spiked with grain alcohol, was on the house. It was not the drinks, but the fact that the Cellar's waitresses wore only underwear, that had given the place some notoriety and the notoriety had apparently spread as far as Washington. Hippies and free love would descend on San Francisco, and Kirkwood always claimed his place was a forerunner of what was to come. Whatever the case, Phil Record, the Star-Telegram night city editor, and I were appointed to guide our visitors to it.We might understand the Cellar and its owner, Pat Kirkwood, better if we read part of Karen
"Little Lynn" Carlin's Warren Commission testimony. As we know, Ms. Carlin worked for Jack
Ruby at the Carousel Club as a stripper, and also knew Kirkwood. The following exchange during
her WC testimony is quite revealing:
Mr. Hubert: "Who is Pat Kirkwood?"
Ms. Carlin: "He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by him. My life had been
threatened by him."
Hubert: "Why did he do that?"
Carlin: "Well, it was--he had some publicity down there--television and cameras and so on, and we
never got along too well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified some
policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of course, he had so many friends
he got out of it real easy, but then he hated me for what I had done."
Hubert: "Was that before the President was shot?"
Carlin: "Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot, he found out what was going
on and he called me on the telephone, and he says, 'I want you down here in about 20 minutes,'
and I said, 'Kirkwood, I don't want to have anything to do with you or your plans, just leave me
alone.' "
Hubert: "That was after Oswald was shot?"
Carlin: "yes, after I went to court that first time, the bond hearing, I believe."
Hubert: "Yes."
Carlin: "After I went to court, he says, 'I want you down here' and I said, 'Well, I'm not coming
down.' He called me back in about 20 minutes and he said, 'Why aren't you down here?' He said,
'I'll send a cab up after you.' " (WCH XV, p 660)
Now, what would a stripper working for Jack Ruby be doing involved with an owner
of a "coffee house" that served coffee and fruit drinks?? And, why did Mr. Kirkwood have to
bribe police officers, if the strongest drink he served was fruit and java?? There's alot more
to Pat Kirkwood than we know.
Bill C
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That's terrible. I had no idea of this. I suppose one has to take his word for the amount he drank? The times would barely give him a decent night sleep and then be bright and ready for the job. One way or the other, some impairment of function sounds reasonable to expect. (I wonder if there are any hints of 'upper' use? Hair of the dog? One wouldn't expect them to be keen to admit to any sort of abuse. Whose idea was it to go to town? Had they been released to do so, was it standard practise? no doubt all this has been hashed over previously.)
John - this is a well known and well worn subject. This was partially covered also in a thread on the first black SS - Lamar Waldron - concerning the drinking by the SS. One link to Lamar...
http://www.calitreview.com/Interviews/waldron_8024.htm
There has been speculation concerning the bartender at the Cellar who served the drinks - Pat Kirkwood -
you can Google this, or probably even do a search here on the Forum for more info - how many SS were actually there [anyone's guess since I have seen different numbers], who drank how much and who left at
what time - probably a mystery for all time.
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf
The fact of the matter is plain and I feel strongly about this in terms of my personal opinion - anyone that had been drinking at the Cellar the evening before the assassination should have been instantly terminated without further renumeration of any kind. PERIOD. No pension, no benefits, no severance. Their primary function was to protect the Commander-in-Chief. Not only did they fail to perform this task miserably, but some of them had been up until the wee hours of that very day - and we are talking about grain alcohol and a cover-up on this matter as well. FIRED - instantly.
Why should they have been treated any differently than anyone else? Would anyone in a similar professional capacity today be extended the same 'courtesy?'
Fired and with shame heaped upon all their heads...and lucky to have this as an option. In some Countries they would have simply been taken out back and shot.
Clint Hill didn't seem to appreciate Vince Salandria's last published work. Was he fit for duty when he protected a corpse all the way to Parkland? The other SS are not heroes - if something I heard once was on the level, then firepower prepared in Dealey - according to plan - was anticipating retaliation - not flight. Does that not make them cowards? It doesn't matter how you feel about Kennedy - objectively speaking, they fled - despite the fact that shots were being fired and they were armed to the teeth. Is that logical? Is that in any way logical?
Then there were the write-ups on the SS and the difficulty of their job, their rigorous training, how they could not have been blamed for what transpired etc., along with the Oswald propaganda, poor Kennedy, and 'that LBJ is one cool SOB stuff' - absurd. But that is the phenomenon of recorded history and the 'Golden Rule.'
- lee
Lee
I agree totally that these SS men should've been disciplined according to the guidelines put
forth by Section 10, Chapter 1, page 7 of the SS manual. I consider this episode a coverup within
the coverup.
Actually, it is not a mystery as to who consumed what, how much, and what time they did leave.
It's all in the agents' reports to Chief Rowley. They were;
David Grant, 1 scotch, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m.
Richard Johnsen, 2 beers at the Press Club, left the Cellar at 12:45 a.m.
John Ready, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:15 a.m.
Clint Hill, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m.
Ernest Olsen, 1 1/2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 1 a.m.
Paul Landis, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 5 a.m.
Donald Lawton, 3 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3 a.m.
Andrew Berger, 2 beers at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:15 a.m.
Glenn Bennett, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:00 a.m.
(Source for the above reports is CE 1020)
According to Vince Palamara's excellent book, "The Third Alternative," ten men were
in the follow up car directly behind the presidential limousine. (Appendix 1, page 1).
If we exclude the two presidential advisors, Ken O'Donnell and Dave Powers, who were in the
car, actually eight SS men were in or on the car. Four of them are on the list above. They
are John Ready, Clint Hill, Paul Landis, and Glenn Bennett.
Could any of them stop the assassination had their instincts been quicker? That's speculation,
but there must be a reason for the SS manual to have a specific section which prohibits the consumption
of alcoholic beverages while on duty. And all of these men were officially on duty.
One more piece of information from Palamara's book. In the appendix section, there are notes
taken by Palamara when he interviewed Sam Kinney on March 5, 1994, and again on April 15, 1994.
Kinney told Palamara that Emory Roberts recalled SSA Ready and ordered the men not to move (even
after recognizing 1st shot) (p. 3 of hand written notes of interview).
Bill C
To picture it in a slightly different way by reorganising the info kindly posted. Mostly I just wanted an idea of who left when.
..Richard Johnsen..2 beers at the Press Club................................................left the Cellar at.00:45
.......Ernest Olsen........................................1 1/2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar...left the Cellar at 01:00
...Andrew Berger..2 beers at the Press Club ....1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar......left the Cellar at 02:15
............Clint Hill*.1 scotch at the Press Club...1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar........left the Cellar at.02:45
.Donald Lawton....3 beers at the Press Club.....2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar...... left the Cellar at 03:00
...Glenn Bennett*.2 beers at the Press Club.... 2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar.......left the Cellar at 03:00
.......John Ready*.2 beers at the Press Club.....2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar.......left the Cellar at 03:15
.......Paul Landis*....1 scotch at the Press Club...2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar... left the Cellar at 05:00.
* in the car
When did they have to be ready in the morning? (Most restrained and civilised drinking patterns. I wonder how big the glasses were?
Security pulled. Staff dozy?
We know the arrival for duty of the agents who were assigned to the follow up car.
According to Agent Emory Roberts, who was in charge of the 8 am to 4 pm shift of the
agents on November 22, 1963, the following agents arrived for duty at the Texas Hotel
at the following times: (We will limit this information to the four agents who violated
SS regulations pertaining to consuming alcoholic beverages while on duty, and were
assigned to the follow up car on November 22, 1963)
Glenn Bennett and John Ready reported for duty at 7:20 a.m.
Clint Hill and Paul Landis reported for duty at approximately 8:05 a.m. (Source: Statement
of Emory P. Roberts, Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge, White House Detail, U.S.
Secret Service, April 28, 1964 CE 1020).
Bill C
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]
Robin
A very timely photograph. This award, the "Exceptional
Service Award," was presented to Clint Hill on December 3, 1963
for his, "bravery in attempting to protect President John F. Kennedy."
("The Third Alternative" by Vince Palamara, photo section).
In another photo of the same ceremony, Mrs. Kennedy can be
seen standing to the left of Hill. It seems everyone wanted her in photos.
LBJ insisted that she stand next to him during the swearing in on AF One.
This award was given very soon after the assassination, eleven days by
my count. One has to wonder if this ceremony, complete with Mrs. Kennedy
in attendance, was a much needed morale booster for the Secret Service, which
had to be experiencing internal disaray at this time.
Bill C
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That's terrible. I had no idea of this. I suppose one has to take his word for the amount he drank? The times would barely give him a decent night sleep and then be bright and ready for the job. One way or the other, some impairment of function sounds reasonable to expect. (I wonder if there are any hints of 'upper' use? Hair of the dog? One wouldn't expect them to be keen to admit to any sort of abuse. Whose idea was it to go to town? Had they been released to do so, was it standard practise? no doubt all this has been hashed over previously.)
John - this is a well known and well worn subject. This was partially covered also in a thread on the first black SS - Lamar Waldron - concerning the drinking by the SS. One link to Lamar...
http://www.calitreview.com/Interviews/waldron_8024.htm
There has been speculation concerning the bartender at the Cellar who served the drinks - Pat Kirkwood - you can Google this, or probably even do a search here on the Forum for more info - how many SS were actually there [anyone's guess since I have seen different numbers], who drank how much and who left at
what time - probably a mystery for all time.
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf
The fact of the matter is plain and I feel strongly about this in terms of my personal opinion - anyone that had been drinking at the Cellar the evening before the assassination should have been instantly terminated without further renumeration of any kind. PERIOD. No pension, no benefits, no severance. Their primary function was to protect the Commander-in-Chief. Not only did they fail to perform this task miserably, but some of them had been up until the wee hours of that very day - and we are talking about grain alcohol and a cover-up on this matter as well. FIRED - instantly.
Why should they have been treated any differently than anyone else? Would anyone in a similar professional capacity today be extended the same 'courtesy?'
Fired and with shame heaped upon all their heads...and lucky to have this as an option. In some Countries they would have simply been taken out back and shot.
Clint Hill didn't seem to appreciate Vince Salandria's last published work. Was he fit for duty when he protected a corpse all the way to Parkland? The other SS are not heroes - if something I heard once was on the level, then firepower prepared in Dealey - according to plan - was anticipating retaliation - not flight. Does that not make them cowards? It doesn't matter how you feel about Kennedy - objectively speaking, they fled - despite the fact that shots were being fired and they were armed to the teeth. Is that logical? Is that in any way logical?
Then there were the write-ups on the SS and the difficulty of their job, their rigorous training, how they could not have been blamed for what transpired etc., along with the Oswald propaganda, poor Kennedy, and 'that LBJ is one cool SOB stuff' - absurd. But that is the phenomenon of recorded history and the 'Golden Rule.'
- lee
Lee
I agree totally that these SS men should've been disciplined according to the guidelines put
forth by Section 10, Chapter 1, page 7 of the SS manual. I consider this episode a coverup within
the coverup.
Actually, it is not a mystery as to who consumed what, how much, and what time they did leave.
It's all in the agents' reports to Chief Rowley. They were;
David Grant, 1 scotch, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m.
Richard Johnsen, 2 beers at the Press Club, left the Cellar at 12:45 a.m.
John Ready, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:15 a.m.
Clint Hill, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m.
Ernest Olsen, 1 1/2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 1 a.m.
Paul Landis, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 5 a.m.
Donald Lawton, 3 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3 a.m.
Andrew Berger, 2 beers at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:15 a.m.
Glenn Bennett, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:00 a.m.
(Source for the above reports is CE 1020)
According to Vince Palamara's excellent book, "The Third Alternative," ten men were
in the follow up car directly behind the presidential limousine. (Appendix 1, page 1).
If we exclude the two presidential advisors, Ken O'Donnell and Dave Powers, who were in the
car, actually eight SS men were in or on the car. Four of them are on the list above. They
are John Ready, Clint Hill, Paul Landis, and Glenn Bennett.
Could any of them stop the assassination had their instincts been quicker? That's speculation,
but there must be a reason for the SS manual to have a specific section which prohibits the consumption
of alcoholic beverages while on duty. And all of these men were officially on duty.
One more piece of information from Palamara's book. In the appendix section, there are notes
taken by Palamara when he interviewed Sam Kinney on March 5, 1994, and again on April 15, 1994.
Kinney told Palamara that Emory Roberts recalled SSA Ready and ordered the men not to move (even
after recognizing 1st shot) (p. 3 of hand written notes of interview).
Bill C
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I was joking, Francesca. How could I not be? I do notice that i have a lot of trouble conveying humor, though; I guess I should stop trying. Would it have been better if I'd written the first thing I thought of: the part about Clint Hill was the only part I couldn't believe! And no, I don't believe that either; Clint Hill is one of the true great heroes that day in my estimation, another being MLBaker, and I'm very much aware of him beating himself up about not "having done more" and going through hell all these years. That's too bad, but it's proof of just how much character he really does have.
BTW, I would recommend the movie "Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." Once the US President talks about how General Ripper has gone overboard in ordering his flight squadron to drop their nuclear weapons on the USSR, the General played by George C. Scott says, "I think we oughta hold back judgement until all the facts are in."
Take care,
Dan
Dan
Clint Hill did what he could that day, and it wasn't enough. Perhaps he
could've arrived at the limousine quicker if he wasn't out violating a Secret Service regulation
the night/early morning before the assassination. In a report to Chief Rowley, Mr. Hill
admitted to consuming a scotch at the Press Club, and a "fruit drink" at the Cellar. He also
stated in the report that he left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. (CE 1020). Secret Service regulations
with respect to drinking alcoholic beverages were violated by Mr. Hill and at least
eight other SS agents on the night and early morning before the assassination. No
discipline was handed out because Chief Rowley didn't want the agents to suffer the
stigma that would be attached to them if they were indeed punished for violating
the regulations of consuming alcoholic beverages while on duty. (WCH V p. 452).
Bill C
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RFK is the only attorney general that I can recall who really had an agenda (destroying organized crime, though he was also trying to destroy Castro of course). The others have seemed content to perform their primary duty of protecting the president, whoever he may be at the time, in his various criminal activities. I suppose that the fate of JFK and RFK may in fact be why AGs have chosen not to have agendas. And anyway protecting criminal presidents has certainly become a full-time job.
It's too bad that Reagan's first Attorney General, William French Smith, didn't
take on the task of continuing the work of the HSCA. Then again, a Republican
administration didn't want to take the chance of making Kennedy, a Democrat,
into a martyr. Perhaps the Reagan people knew JFK would become a martyr
if Smith continued to pursue the investigation into the assassination.
Bill C
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[Forrestal, fell to his death from a small window of the 16th floor of the Bethesda Naval Hospital....
Later inspection found heavy scuff marks outside the window sill and cement work. Proponents of the suicide theory claim these were made by Forrestal’s feet while he was hanging by the neck from the radiator, and perhaps that he belatedly changed his mind and tried to climb back in. But the scuff marks confirm no such thing. They could just as easily have been made by his struggle with someone pushing him out the window.
A very interesting post, to say the least. I remember talking to a friend who was in
the Navy, and he told me he thought there were two members of the military police
posted INSIDE of Forrestal's hospital room. If true, this makes Forrestal's "suicide"
even more suspicious.
Bill C
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If there's a hell, maybe Jennings is in it. Right now he may be trying to wrangle an interview with LBJ, who's running the place.
Ron
It seems to me that a major network in the U.S. has to have a
handle on the assassination and what is said about it on the air. For
years, CBS's Walter Cronkite and Dan Rather were the keepers of
the propaganda that was dispensed. Then, it seems that ABC took
over the responsibility with Peter Jennings as the new henchman,
replacing Rather.
I'm now wondering who the new keeper of the propaganda
machine will be for the U.S. networks. Katie Kouric is moving to
CBS, but I don't think she will be the one. My hunch is that Brian
Williams will now emerge to be the heavy to remind the American people that
there was a lone assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, who shot JFK.
Bill C
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If you go to the JFK Lancer Forum, type in a search for "Beyond The Magic Bullet Program." Look for the topic in the list provided and click on it to bring it up. It's originated by Richard Smith, December 1, 2005. This will certainly supplement what Pat has suggested to do.
-
Paul
They keep showing this fiction they call a documentary in the
hope that the longer it's on the air, more people will fall for it.
Researcher Richard Smith showed how this program actually proved the
SB Theory could not be duplicated. In a review of the program,
which Richard taped, he showed how the bullet went through JFK's
chest, and not his throat. There were many things wrong with
that documentary.
I would rather they present "The Guilty Men" by Nigel
Turner. That to me is much more valid than the nonsense
Peter Jennings and company presented. "The Guilty Men"
actually had witnesses corroborating what Turner presented.
It's too bad that the History Channel and its conglomerates
caved in to Jack Valenti and his henchmen. I understand
that "The Guilty Men" will never be shown on television again,
and that sales of the program have been suspended. Is this
what freedom of speech has come to in the U.S.?
Bill C
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I'm glad that the U.S. is a nation that values freedom of speech. (As long as it doen't offend the rich and politically powerful.) So much for what they teach in the textbooks at school.
Bill
You mentioned freedom of speech. If we take a look at what's
happening to the media now, one would have to agree with you. Not
only did the History Channel succumb to the politically powerful and rich,
I'll venture to say that the HC lost quite a bit of revenue when it wasn't
"allowed" to keep "The Guilty Men" on the market for sale.
Bill C
Hi Bill,
According to Vince Palamara (who is featured in one of the episodes), the episode 7-9 DVD was the HC's best seller for the short amount of time it was available for purchase. In our society, when a company leaves that kind of money on the table and walks away, you can rest assured that there was some very serious pressure being applied. Nobody just quits a profitable product, which I'm sure the HC had invested dollars in, unless they are confronted with serious consequences for proceeding.
Hello Greg
Your point about what Vince Palamara said reveals much about how important it was for the "influential" individuals who pressured the HC to relinquish this very profitable product. I was fortunate to see the program, and the information in it was fascinating. I found the witnesses who were interviewed to be very credible. I would be interested to hear what others who saw the documentary, "The Guilty Men," thought of it.
Bill C
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Hi all,
anyone know what on earth a 'wetback' is?!
I've come across the word whislt reading 'Farewell America' but have no idea what it means - I'm guessing it's one of those american words not in use on this side of the pond! :-)
The sentence reads:
"Texas offers.........cheap labor (poor whites, negroes and wetbacks)"
Thanks
Francesca
It's an unfortunate, disparaging word for someone from
Mexico who crosses the border illegally. They were named
"wet backs" because most would swim across the Rio Grande.
Bill C
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I'm glad that the U.S. is a nation that values freedom of speech. (As long as it doen't offend the rich and politically powerful.) So much for what they teach in the textbooks at school.
Bill
You mentioned freedom of speech. If we take a look at what's
happening to the media now, one would have to agree with you. Not
only did the History Channel succumb to the politically powerful and rich,
I'll venture to say that the HC lost quite a bit of revenue when it wasn't
"allowed" to keep "The Guilty Men" on the market for sale.
Bill C
-
Mark, I think your right, JFK is, I believe refering, even if obliquely to, for want of a better word, the vested interest group. As regards his reforming zeal, it must be remembered this was a speach to the Unions, but reading the whole speach it rings true, and as such was a harbinger for what his enemies really feared, a landslide victory giving Kennedy a chance to have at civil rights, and issues of equality, and all the time Bobby waiting in the wings..
Stephen
There is an excellent book written by Irving Bernstein
titled, "Promises Kept." Bernstein writes of the domestic policies
Kennedy was working on at the time of his assassination. JFK
was indeed aiming at making a better life for the average American.
One area Bernstein writes of is the battle JFK had with
U.S. Steel's attempt at raising the general level of steel prices. I'm
sure Kennedy's successful fight against the huge steel company didn't
make him many friends within the corporate world.
Bill C
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I KNOW HELEN MARKHAM [ HM ] WAS NOT A GOOD WITNESS FOR THE WC. IN FACT, SHE SOUNDED
TOTALLY INSANE TO ME. SHE WAS ALMOST AS BAD AS HENRY WADE.
HOWEVER, SHE DID HAVE A JOB AND DID RIDE THE BUS EVERY DAY THAT SHE WORKED SO SHE HAD TO BE FAMILIAR WITH THE BUS SCHEDULE AND WHAT TIME SHE WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE HER APT. IN ORDER TO ARRIVE AT THE BUS STOP TO CATCH HER BUS EACH DAY.
{ VOL.lll, WC HEARINGS, PAGE 305 ]
[ IN REGARDS TO THE TIME SHE LEFT FOR WORK ]
MR. BALL: YOU THINK IT WAS A LITTLE AFTER 1 ?
HM : I WOULDN'T BE AFRAID TO BET IT WASN'T 6 OR 7 MINUTES AFTER 1 .
MR. BALL: YOU KNOW WHAT TIME YOU USUALLY GET YOUR BUS DON'T YOU?
HM : 1:15
MR. BALL : SO IT WAS BEFORE 1:15?
HM : YES IT WAS. [ END QUOTE ]
SO FROM HER ADDRESS AT 328 E. 9 TH ST. SHE WOULD HAVE HAD TO WALK 2/3 OF A BLOCK
TO PATTON, CROSS PATTON, WALK A FULL BLOCK TO PATTON AND EAST 10 TH. AND UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES STILL WALK A FULL BLOCK FURTHER TO BE STANDING , WAITING FOR HER BUS TO ARRIVE AT 1:15. IF NO ONE IS AT THE BUS STOP THE BUS DOSN'T STOP.
EVERYONE IS PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HM SAID OCCURRED THAT DAY AT THE INTERSECTION OF PATTON AND E. 10 TH. ST. TRAFFIC WAS HEAVY, SHE HAD TO WAIT TO CROSS, A POLICEMAN GOING SLOW , A MAN TURNING AND COMING BACK TO THE SQUAD CAR, RESTING HIS ARMS ON THE WINDOW AND TALKING TO THE POLICEMAN [ FOR A FEW MINUTES ? }, THE POLICEMAN GETTING OUT, THE MAN SHOOTING THE COP, THE MAN RUNS OFF, SHE COVERS HER EYES, SHE'S IN SHOCK, AFTER THE MAN LEAVES SHE GOES OVER TO THE COP.....
HERE"S MY POINT.
WHAT WAS THE OFFICAL TIME OF THE CITIZEN"S CALL ABOUT THE SHOOTING AND COULD IT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN THE TIME ALLOTTED?
IN ORDER TO GRADUATE FROM BOOT CAMP WE HAD TO RUN THE MILE IN 8 MINUTES. AFTER 8 WEEKS OF TRAINING ALMOST EVERYBODY WAS ABLE TO DO THIS. IF YOU DOUBLE THIS TIME FOR WALKING EVEN AT A FAST PACE ITS GONNA TAKE 16 MINUTES.
OSWALD WAS NOT AT THE TIPPIT MURDER SCENE !
CASE CLOSED !!!!!!!!!
JIM FEEMSTER
Jim
According to the WC Report, "At approximately 1:15 p.m., Tippit, who was cruising
east on 10th Street, passed the intersection of 10th and Patton, about eight blocks from where
he reported at 12:54 p.m. About 100 feet past the intersectiion Tippit stopped a man walking
east along the south side of Patton. The man's general description was similar to to the one
broadcast over the police radio. Tippit stopped the man and called him to his car. He approached
the car and apparently exchanged words with Tippit through the right front or vent window. As
Tippit reached the left front wheel the man pulled out a revolver and fired several shots. Four
bullets hit Tippit and killed him instantly." (WCR, p. 165).
According to the WC Report, a witness named Domingo Benavides used Tippit's radio
to report the shooting, "at about 1:16 p.m." (WCR, p. 166)
Bill C
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John
The idea that President Kennedy ordered the assassination of
Diem is indeed a lie. In his book, "Plausible Denial" Mark Lane described the
testimony of E. Howard Hunt under oath during the second Hunt v. Liberty Lobby trial.
The trial began in January of 1985, and Hunt testified in court on
February 6. Here is a portion of the transcript which deals with Lane
questioning Hunt about blaming Kennedy for the Diem assassination.
Q "Were you ever involved in any kind of disinformation to embarrass
him?
Hunt "President Kennedy?"
Q "Yes."
Hunt "No."
Lane interjects here and explains that Hunt was lying.
Q "Did you ever have discussion with Mr. Colson about forging some cables
in order to blame John F. Kennedy for the death of the leader of South Vietnam?"
Lane states that Hunt paused, looked at his attorneys for help, but there
was nothing they could do. The question was proper.
Hunt "Yes, that is a matter of public record. I can't remember whether Kennedy
himself was to be blamed. But certainly the Nixon administration--the Kennedy
administration, by the Nixon administration."
Q "Did you ever have discussions with Mr. Colson in which you agreed to falsify
State Department cables to show that President John F. Kennedy's administration
ordered the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem?"
Hunt "I did."
Q "And, in fact, did you falsify and forge those documents?"
Hunt "Did I?" (lengthy pause) "Yes I did." ("Plausible Denial" page 269)
Hunt confirmed what Lane had suspected. President Kennedy did not
order the assassination of Diem, but was rather framed by Hunt and the Nixon
administration when Hunt falsified State Department cables.
Bill C
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Karnow has what he calls "Notes on Sources" at the end of his book.... In reality, one would have to search various books to find which one had the quote in it. I don't like this procedure for sourcing material, and it leaves the reader to ask just how valid is his information in the chapter.
Thank you for this. I don't have a copy of Karnow's book at hand. Does he give his source for this comment?According to Karnow in this 1991 edition, LBJ said to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963, "Just let me get elected, and then you can have your war."While that line made for good theater in the movie, JFK, it seems an unlikely comment for LBJ to make "to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963." For one thing, what would the joint chiefs have to do with getting LBJ "elected?" For another, the image of the joint chiefs gathered together being addressed as a group at a White House reception seems like a dramatic contrivance. Also, the quote implies a quid pro quo arrangement, as if the joint chiefs would be rewarded for providing an election victory with a war. A more credible scenario would have LBJ expressing the need to prevail in the election before acquiescing to the joint chiefs' war plans. Similarly, JFK was known to have expressed the need to get reelected before he could do certain things.
Tim
Tim
You bring up some valid points. It's a shame Mr. Karnow didn't specifically
identify his source for the alleged LBJ statement to the joint chiefs. Perhaps we
could speculate in place of possessing specific facts about this encounter.
It's possible that the joint chiefs were at the White House reception dressed
in civilian attire rather than their sparkling uniforms with medals, etc. Perhaps
LBJ was saying exactly what you inferred; that to escalate action in Vietnam, he
would have to be elected. Yes, JFK did express the need to get reelected before
he could do certain things. For example, he told Kenneth O'Donnell of his plans
to withdraw from Vietnam, "So we better make damned sure that I am reelected." The
source for that quote comes from the book, "Johnny We Hardly Knew Ye," page 16.
Bill C
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Karnow has what he calls "Notes on Sources" at the end of his book.... In reality, one would have to search various books to find which one had the quote in it. I don't like this procedure for sourcing material, and it leaves the reader to ask just how valid is his information in the chapter.
Thank you for this. I don't have a copy of Karnow's book at hand. Does he give his source for this comment?According to Karnow in this 1991 edition, LBJ said to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963, "Just let me get elected, and then you can have your war."While that line made for good theater in the movie, JFK, it seems an unlikely comment for LBJ to make "to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963." For one thing, what would the joint chiefs have to do with getting LBJ "elected?" For another, the image of the joint chiefs gathered together being addressed as a group at a White House reception seems like a dramatic contrivance. Also, the quote implies a quid pro quo arrangement, as if the joint chiefs would be rewarded for providing an election victory with a war. A more credible scenario would have LBJ expressing the need to prevail in the election before acquiescing to the joint chiefs' war plans. Similarly, JFK was known to have expressed the need to get reelected before he could do certain things.
Tim
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For those of us who have Karnow's revised and updated edition of his book
that was printed in 1991, the quote is on page 342. According to Karnow in this 1991
edition, LBJ said to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963,
"Just let me get elected, and then you can have your war."
Thank you for this. I don't have a copy of Karnow's book at hand. Does he give his source for this comment?
John
Karnow has what he calls "Notes on Sources" at the end of his book. Unfortunately,
he lists only the books he found his information in. For example, chapter 9 holds the
quote we're discussing now. Under the "notes and sources" section for chapter 9,
Karnow lists over twenty books which are responsible for the information in that chapter.
However, he's not specific as to which book is responsible for a particular piece of
information. In reality, one would have to search various books to find which one had
the quote in it. I don't like this procedure for sourcing material, and it leaves the
reader to ask just how valid is his information in the chapter.
Bill C
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[quote name='John Simkin' date='Mar 3 2006, 12:04 AM' post='57150']
I read somewhere that LBJ told one of his aides something like "get me elected (in 1964) and I will give them the Vietnam War that they are after". Can anyone remember what was actually said and the book that this information came from?
This quote, (according to "JFK The book of the Film") is attributed to Stanley Karnow from "Vietnam:A History" p. 326
Dawn
Dawn
For those of us who have Karnow's revised and updated edition of his book
that was printed in 1991, the quote is on page 342. According to Karnow in this 1991
edition, LBJ said to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963,
"Just let me get elected, and then you can have your war."
The quote is quite interesting, in my opinion. He says, "let me get elected,"
as if the joint chiefs were going to act in some way that would prevent him from
winning the election. Why would LBJ say to the joint chiefs, "let me.......?"
Bill C
And the quote is "Just get me elected and you can have your war".
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Has anyone seen the Oswald photo before, (bottom of second column)?
Hi Robert
I tried to link up, but no luck. A message told me
to check the web address.
Thanks
Bill C
Has anyone seen the Oswald photo before, (bottom of second column)?
Hi Robert
I tried to link up, but no luck. A message told me
to check the web address.
Thanks
Bill C
Hello again
The site came in perfectly this time, Robert.
Thanks
Bill C
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Braden's proximity to RFK on the night of his assassination (less than a mile away) Has always seemed mighty suspicious to me. I mean really, whats the chances.
Braden was investigated by the LAPD on that and at the time of RFK's assassination at the Ambassador Braden said he was in bed with his wife at another hotel in LA.
Noyes wrote a book about Braden, "Legacy of Doubt," a pulp paperback in 1976, which Richard Sprague made required reading for his investigative staff of the HSCA.
Braden testified before the HSCA that the book wrecked his life, got him kicked out of the Lacosta Country Club, though he was a founding member, and he disputed that he was involved in any conspiracy.
It is absurd, as some suggest, that Braden was a "shooter," since he has no violent background, though he does have a long rap sheet.
BK
Bill
Lacosta Country Club. Isn't that the infamous organized crime hangout
where Richard Nixon spent alot of time?
Bill C
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Pat:
When looking at the extension of the Vietnam War, we also have to look at the profits in
dollars the war machine in the U.S. was realizing. Brown and Root, a coporation that had ties
to Lyndon Johnson, made huge profits by being awarded dredging contracts along the coast.
By the way, Brown and Root is now a subsidary of Halliburton. The connections to then
and now are quite interesting.
Bill C
There is also the General Dynamics connection. LBJ was certainly under a lot of pressure to keep the war going and growing by his ole pals in big business. At the height of the war, LBJ closed the naval shipyards, deciding it was more cost-efficient to use private contractors exclusively. One of the companies to be rewarded with billions of dollars in new business was General Dynamics. Of course, General Dynamics was also the recipient of Johnson and McNamara largesse through their selection of its TFX fighter over a superior fighter created by Boeing. The Boeing fighter was both preferred by the Pentagon and cheaper to make, but Johnson and his cronies insisted in the more expensive fighter, which only so happened to be made by a Texas company. Just so happened to be the home state of Secretary of the navy Fred Korth as well... McNamara is reported to have wanted the TFX because he believed having interchangeable parts would be an economic advantage in the long run. (The TFX wuld be used by the Air Force and the Navy). He failed to understand that the needs for land-based fighters and carrier-based fighters were different. His Ford background was NOT applicable to understanding the military. The conservative notion that the Federal Gov should be run like a business by businessman hit a brick wall in Vietnam, and yet we don't seem to have learned from it. Cheney's inclusion of Haliburton into the Iraq effort will be studied one day, and revealed to be one of the most corrupt acts of modern times. I predict. (I mean, how can we justify paying a private citizen 150k to drive the same truck a 35k a year serviceman would drive? Especially when the private citizen is under no obligation to stick it out when the going gets tough. It's a complete joke.)
If I remember correctly, Kennedy decided to take the short flight to Dallas that Friday because
a motorcade route would've brought him near or by General Dynamics. As for Cheney, I read
in today's Cape Cod Times that he has stuck tax payers with $ millions for trips he and members
of his office took the past four years. The source for this information in the CC Times is the
"Center for Public Integrity," a nonpartisan research organization based in Washington.
I agree Pat. It is indeed a joke, but the American tax payer isn't laughing. It seems more and
more corruption is being exposed in the name of this present administration.
Bill C
Clint Hill and the SS Agents in Dallas
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted