J. Raymond Carroll

What is really "ludicrously implausible," Sean is the idea that he shot JFK, a man he admired, according to his wife and everyone who knew him well. P.S. If you can show me evidence that he was a fan of Lyndon Johnson then I might believe you.

Sean, it is eight o'clock in New York and I, unlike my city like to get my sleep. Can I make a suggestion? GET SOME SLEEP, LADDiE!

Precisely, Robert. Which is why the coke-room encounter is so important. For my money, Leo Sauvage's account is the best. Sauvage proves that Lee could not have been on the 6th floor at the time of shooting. and he was corroborated by every serious researcher ever since, from Weisberg down to our own day.

Thank you Jerry. I can't wait to explore the origins of the discovery of Prayer Man where the story first began. Glad to hear it. Please give my best to Debra and Mr. Conway, two of the best people I have ever met in my research, along with Mary Ferrell, Larry Ray Harris, Harold Weisberg, David Lifton and my good buddy, Vince Palamara. I have also had the good fortune to meet Josiah Thompson, Paul Hoch and -- for my money -- the most inspiring speaker since JFK, Professor Peter Dale Scott. Of course today I have to add a bunch of guys I have yet to meet, like Richard Hocking, Sean Murphy, Bill Kelly, Robin Unger, Duncan MacRae and many others.

And prithee tell Sean, on what floor was Prayer Man? You say tomato, and I say tomayto. But somehow Fritz heard it, and wrote it down. Is it your theory that someone doctored Fritz's notes? I assume Lee went up the front steps to get his coke that he had been looking forward to. It was a fairly hot day, and he had worked hard all morning, according to his bosses.

There is and always was overwhelming evidence to support the coke room story, and better men than I (plus Sylvia Meagher, from memory) have said so. It was and remains a glaring anomaly in the Warren Report. but thank you Sean for that most enlightening dime-store lesson in psychology.

I do not see Baker's affidavit contradicting anyone, it only says he wasn't sure which floor he was on. And you are trying to make a xxxx of too many people, including Lee Oswald who said he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when the policeman came in. Fritz's notes -- on top of the coke room story -- put the matter beyond much doubt in my mind, and this thread has, for my money (to quote Fritz) "cinched" it. He was "Out with BIll Shelley in front." And I have no doubt he would have so testified at his trial. And if Sean Murphy, Duncan MacRae, Richard Hocking, Robin Unger, Gerda, and those involved in the Prayer Man inquiry were there to help, he would have proved it.

Putting the encounter on the ground floor. Are you saying Baker and Truly both lied about the encounter? I can see where Baker, in the affidavit you posted, was confused about the floor, since he was not familiar with the building, but Baker's uncertainty about the exact floor means only that he was unsure about which floor it was, and doesn't contradict Truly or Mrs. Reid. What am I missing? And I don't think the coke-room encounter was foisted by anybody. It simply could not be avoided, given the evidence. The first two books criticising the Warren Report, by Harold Weisberg and Leo Sauvage, both argued convincingly, as Howard Roffman and numerous others have argued down the years, that the coke room encounter actually proves that Lee Oswald could not possibly have been the assassin. IMO, that incident, which the Warren Report could not avoid, has been a big spur to keeping this inquiry ongoing.

Hit me with your best shot!

Would it be fair to say that, in that initial discussion with Sean you guys agreed that this man needs to be identified?

Hi Robin, great to see you joining this thread. Can you please confirm my understanding that you were first to draw attention, in a Lancer discussion in 2009, to the man we now call Prayer Man. Should anyone else be credited?

YES! Thank you Patrick, that is Mrs. Reid's original affidavit. I had it in my head that this affidavit was given on the 22nd, but it was in fact the day after.

OK Sean, so far , so good. There is plenty of evidence that he went upstairs and bought a coke AFTER the shooting, as he himself told Will Fritz, if I recall correctly, but I respectfully submit, borrowing from my learned friend Mr. Bugliosi, that there is not a speck, not a scintilla of evidence, that this happened BEFORE the shooting. It is late, and I am tired, so I will deal with your remaining points tomorrow. Get some sleep, Sean! You are 5 hours ahead of me.

Here is another statement from Mrs. Reid, to the FBI. Scroll to the right and enlarge: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do I will find her original affidavit, I promise I am not making this up.

Sean, I am still looking for Reid's original affidavit, but I just stumbled upon this hearsay version of her story. I promise I will keep looking for her original, day one affidavit, where she tells the same story. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do

I would caution against getting too friendly with any researcher, Bill, it might bias your perceptions. For my money, the Martinos are completely full of baloney, and just a distraction from the truth.

Funny you should ask, Sean, because I have been meaning to find it again myself. On a quick look I found this, but I will look again when I have a chance and find Mrs. Reid's original affidavit of that fateful day. It is somewhere in the 26 volumes. THis is an affidavit she gave the Secret Service in early December. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=798 Her story remained consistent. Here is her Warren Commission testimony, but I promise to keep looking for her original affidavit, where she tells the same story. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=39&relPageId=282 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=39&relPageId=282

You say tomato, and I say tomayto. I hear you Sean. But can you disprove the Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter, on the floor where the coke machine was located, whether we call it the first or the second floor, as described in the Warren Report? How could I possibly disprove it, Ray, any more than you can prove it? There was no CCTV in the TSBD on 11/22/63. Like Greg Parker and others, however, I do remain highly sceptical that it ever took place. I've got the same-day testimony of Jeraldean Reid as corroboration for my version. Who or what does Greg Parker have?

Excellent work, Richard, it's good to get these listed systematically like this. Just a couple of small additions to copperfasten your points: -Billy Lovelady is even more definitively ruled out as Prayer Man for the simple reason that the two show up right beside each other in the Wiegman footage: Now unless someone is going to come forward and tell us that Prayer Man is actually a rather butch woman, we're still stuck with the mother of all questions: Is Prayer Man none other than Lee Oswald, coke bottle in hand? Could it really be that simple? You bet your life it could. Except I do not see a coke in Prayer Man's hands yet, maybe a later film will show that, a film taken after Prayer Man has gone upstairs to the coke machine. Of course I make no claim to being a photo expert. BTW, compliments to Richard Hocking and yourself Sean for the breakdown of TSBD employees. You and Richard have done a fantastic job on this thread.

Sean: I am not following you. I believe in Dallas the ground floor was called the first floor. Yes, first floor = ground floor. As we all know, Sean, a busted clock is right twice a day and even the Warren Commission got a few facts straight. I would like to hear convincing evidence from the doubters of the Warren Commission's version of the Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter in the first floor lunchroom where the coke machine was located. Ray, the lunchroom where the coke machine was located was not on the first floor. It was on the second floor. You say tomato, and I say tomayto. I hear you Sean. But can you disprove the Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter, on the floor where the coke machine was located, whether we call it the first or the second floor, as described in the Warren Report?

Sean: I am not following you. I believe in Dallas the ground floor was called the first floor. Yes, first floor = ground floor. As we all know, Sean, a busted clock is right twice a day and even the Warren Commission got a few facts straight. I would like to hear convincing evidence from the doubters of the Warren Commission's version of the Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter in the first floor lunchroom where the coke machine was located.

Sean: I am not following you. I believe in Dallas the ground floor was called the first floor.

What we got here is colloquially known as HEARSAY, ergo inadmissible.

It is not nearly so fanciful as the ridiculous claim that a proud young ex-marine, wearing his Semper Fidelis ring, shot his president in impossible circumstances, a man he admired and was actually fond of, by all accounts, then went to get a coke. And there can be no doubt, since no one contradicts Mrs. Reid, who gave an affidavit the same day and later testified, that he did in fact have a coke in his hand right after his encounter with Baker. And let us recall his demeanor, as described by Baker and Truly, one of the most glaring anomalies in the Warren Report. It was the demeanor of an innocent man.

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