Thomas H. Purvis
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Posts posted by Thomas H. Purvis
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What qualifies as "better" evidence, Mr. Lamson: a death certificate, establishing a wound at T-3, or your photographic interpretation of film? I did not say "best" evidence deliberately, but that's another matter. Please advise, and thanks in advance. Daniel
How about UNINMPEACHABLE fact? The fold on the back of JFK's back is not the product of opinion onr interpretation. And of course that is why is is so damning and feared.
I don't get to have an "opinion' nor can I "interpret" how sunlight works.
It simply works like it works and I (and everyone else) has to live with that.
I don't get to have an "opinion' nor can I "interpret" how geometry works.
It simply works like it works and I (and everyone else) has to live with that.
I don't get to have an "opinion' nor can I "interpret" of the angles of incidence present at the moment Betzner was taken..
It simply is what it is and I (and everyone else) has to live with that.
I don't get to have an "opinion' nor can I "interpret" how a straight line works.
It simply works like it works and I (and everyone else) don't get to bend it.
Unlike all the other evidence for the back wound that has been debated with endless opinions for decades, the data that proves the fold in Betzner is fact based on unbending and well proven principles, not opinion. And of course that's why it is unimpeachable.
I could care less about the SBT, in-shoots and exit wounds, T3 or face-sheets. Weight them to your hearts content. But unless you factor in the 3+ inch fold of fabric found in Betzner, your "interpretation" is fatally flawed.
Actually! What would/and should hold the most weight would be that verification by all three of the autopsy surgeons who examined the wound (to include insertion of their little finger) that the wound was SUPRA-clavicle.
That means "above" for those who appear to have difficulty with this item.
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TRUTH: "a particular belief or teaching regarded by the speaker as the true one."
(belief): "the state of believing"
"mental acceptance of something as true, even though absolute certainty
may be absent."
FACT: "the state of things as they are; reality; actuality"
(reality): "a person or thing that is real"
(actuality): "the state of being actual"
(actual): "existing in reality or in fact; not merely possible, but real"
Your definition of "truth" indicates that "truth" is subjective, aligned closely with "belief." That's a particular philosophical position, one with which I am scarely comfortable. Would that we could know the facts of this case, so that we might know the truth of the matter. In this understanding, "truth" is the logical conclusion dictated by the facts of the case. But oh, how the facts are in dispute, and thus, truth is hid from our eyes. Best, Daniel
Your definition of "truth"
Fine, except! Not my defination. Try the Random House Dictionary
Examples:
The Earth is flat! Once accepted as "truth", yet never a fact!
The Earth is the center of the Universe! Once accepted as "truth", yet never a fact.
"Truth" is what is believed, and tends to change as one (hopefully) gains more knowledge into the realm of physical fact.
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TRUTH: "a particular belief or teaching regarded by the speaker as the true one."
(belief): "the state of believing"
"mental acceptance of something as true, even though absolute certainty
may be absent."
FACT: "the state of things as they are; reality; actuality"
(reality): "a person or thing that is real"
(actuality): "the state of being actual"
(actual): "existing in reality or in fact; not merely possible, but real"
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Thomas H. Purvis,
Josiah Thompson has sent you a new personal conversation entitled "your
Mailings".
Josiah Thompson said:
======================================================================
Hi Tom Purvis,
I just got in the mail a second batch of material from you. Wow, you certainly
are giving the local paper a good dose of Kennedy assassination material! I
haven't yet worked my way through the first batch of material so please don't
send me any more. It will take me awhile to catch up.
Tink Thompson
======================================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The monthly publishings continue until the beginning of November of this year.
At which time I will hopefully, on a weekly basis, provide those facts relative to the third/last/final shot impact.
For those who are not on the "distribution list", a subscription to "The George County Times", just may prove to be worthwhile.
Tom
P.S. Mr. Thompson, hope you do not mind my usage of the above message
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This is a detailed article about the bullet that fell from Governor Connally's gurney at Parkland hospital and was picked by a nurse. She showed the bullet to district attorney, Henry Wade and then gave it to officer Bobby Nolan.
Obviously, THIS was the bullet that wounded Connally, and not the stretcher bullet found by Daryl Tomlinson. The evidence for this is overwhelming.
"Obviously, THIS was the bullet that wounded Connally,"
Nope!
It was the one and only true "Magic Bullet"* that gave JBC the majority of his wounds.**
*Not CE399
**Excluding the wrist wound which was created by a fragment from the Z313 headshot.
Tom
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Tom, on the 20 items in your first post, I'm pretty well with you. But I believe you and I differ on whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald pulled the trigger. IF Oswald was a patsy, as he claimed, he was an excellent choice for a patsy, as he was perfectly capable of making 3 shots from less than 100 yards/300 feet on a slow-moving target. I simply believe what Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry said, when he claimed that no one can put Oswald in THAT window, with THAT rifle, at the EXACT MOMENT the shots were fired. Without that evidence--and apparently Curry had little faith in Howard Brennan, who did, then didn't, then did identify Oswald as being the man in southeast 6th floor window of the TSBD--we are back to guesswork, based upon the preponderance of the evidence. And I tend to find Bill Kelly's analysis of Oswald's movement and position in the 2nd floor lunchroom as being quite convincing...that, based upon what Officer Marion Baker saw, Oswald MUST have entered the lunchroom from the front of the building, and not from the stairwell in the rear.
Other than that, I think you're pretty well in line with where the evidence I've seen takes me.
Accepted!
LHO was either:
A.----------------The actual shooter!
B.----------------The designated (as well as well planned) scapegoat/rabbit.
Unfortunately, due to what the WC pulled, we will most likely never know which.
As you have indicated, when one dispels all of the BS relative to LHO's purported rifle marksmanship, along with the same BS relative to the accuracy and capability of the Model 91/38 Carcano rifle, they are left with the conclusions as to exactly how simple the assassination was.
But, in event that LHO was designated to take the initial blame, then those who chose him for this role would not have chosen someone who demonstrated little and/or no ability to accomplish the task.
First thing to any crime scene is to determine (factually) exactly how the victim was killed.
Then, one may have some chance of determination as to exactly who the perpetrator was.
Tom
P.S. "Correction" is in the mail.
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http://omgili.com/ne...egroupscom.html
On 3 Feb 2009 01:26:36 -0500, Brokedad <...@aol.com
1. The Warren Commission is not the factual truths.
Tom, I'm not so interested in your conclusions as to how you arrived at them. If one is convinced of fraud in the evidence, as am I, it would seem most of your points vanish rather quickly like smoke. So once again, as always, it is the integrity of the evidence that is at stake. By the way, did you mean: "The Warren Commission is not the factual truth?" Best Regards, Daniel
I agree. I looked at Purvis' credentials. He obviously has splendid training as a warrior, and I'm sure there are many more like him in our special forces. But this case is not about "guns and ammo." It is about "fraud in the evidence."
I know that, and knew it when I wrote Best Evidence back in 1981. Doug Horne knows that. And I'm sure you do, too.
You can not come to the truth about a murder when the autopsy has been falsified, i.e., when the "diagram of the shooting" has been changed.
Understanding that fundamental fact is the true starting point in any genuine inquiry into the Kennedy assassination.
DSL
6/21/11 5:50 PM PDT
Los Angeles, CA
"Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.
As a general rule it merely means that one does not understand the evidence".
Tom Purvis
CE399 will tell anyone (who evaluates it) how it came to exist as well as the wounds which it is responsible for.
CE567 & CE569 will do the same.
That leaves us with only the true "Magic Bullet" and the correlation of the wounds which it is responsible for.
All of which is in fact relatively simple.
Except its not so simple to tell us where they came from.
You can't do that, the magic question.
And you can't associate them with The Patsy.
BK
JFKCountercoup.blogspot.com
Except its not so simple to tell us where they came from.
The sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository Building!
(that seemed pretty simple to me!)
Not my problem if you are so insufficiently informed of the FACTS that you believe otherwise.
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On 3 Feb 2009 01:26:36 -0500, Brokedad <...@aol.com
1. The Warren Commission is not the factual truths.
Tom, I'm not so interested in your conclusions as to how you arrived at them. If one is convinced of fraud in the evidence, as am I, it would seem most of your points vanish rather quickly like smoke. So once again, as always, it is the integrity of the evidence that is at stake. By the way, did you mean: "The Warren Commission is not the factual truth?" Best Regards, Daniel
I agree. I looked at Purvis' credentials. He obviously has splendid training as a warrior, and I'm sure there are many more like him in our special forces. But this case is not about "guns and ammo." It is about "fraud in the evidence."
I know that, and knew it when I wrote Best Evidence back in 1981. Doug Horne knows that. And I'm sure you do, too.
You can not come to the truth about a murder when the autopsy has been falsified, i.e., when the "diagram of the shooting" has been changed.
Understanding that fundamental fact is the true starting point in any genuine inquiry into the Kennedy assassination.
DSL
6/21/11 5:50 PM PDT
Los Angeles, CA
"Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.
As a general rule it merely means that one does not understand the evidence".
Tom Purvis
CE399 will tell anyone (who evaluates it) how it came to exist as well as the wounds which it is responsible for.
CE567 & CE569 will do the same.
That leaves us with only the true "Magic Bullet" and the correlation of the wounds which it is responsible for.
All of which is in fact relatively simple.
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For example, he points out that there is no such thing as a "left-handed" scope for a rifle.
Comments?
This was only one example.
--Thomas
"he points out that there is no such thing as a "left-handed" scope for a rifle."
Correct!
However, there are "mounts" which fully correct for the off-center alignment, be it for a lefty or a righty, just as there exists many bolt actions rifles which were specifically produced for a left-handed shooter. (Principally hunting rifles).
If one will check up on it they will find that some of the best Russian snipers of WWII were in fact left handed as well as firing from the left handed position with right-handed bolt action rifles.
With that stated, one will not normally receive a scope mount for left-handed shooting with some cheapo scope.
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I forgot to mention these quotes from Officer B.W. Hargis' interviews with the HSCA:
On November 16, 1977: "The second shot hit JFK in the head. The presidential car had slowed almost to a stop";
On August 8, 1978: "When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head - the limousine slowed so much it practically stopped...";
On December 29, 1978: "... the limousine slowed and nearly stopped ..."
The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....
Chris
My appreciation, as I had missed that Hargis also stated that the second shot (aka/the Z313 impact) struck JFK in the head.
Chaney is of record as having stated that the Preident's head "exploded" with the second shot as well.
Both statements of which are well founded in the facts and testimonies.
Tom
This is echoed By Brehm's Statement The second shot being the head shot aka "313" . and Altgens realises what they want and fluffs his lines and starts babbling.In plain sight ?.
It is "echoed" by many, to include two of the SS Agents in the followup limo.
Just that the WC (apparantly intentionally) neglected to question most of those who had reported the headshot (Z313 impact) as being the second shot.
For the official record, the Z313 is, was, and has always been the second shot!
Tom
I see, Tom, that you are still in denial. While the FBI and SS claimed the second shot occurred when the limo was near its location at 313, they ALWAYS claimed this was the shot hitting Connally, and that the shot hitting Kennedy in the head came later. You, however, seem pre-disposed to believe the wonderful patriots in the FBI and SS wouldn't lie, and that it was the evil WC who forced them to lie later.
That's nonsense. Find us ONE memo in which the FBI or SS claim there was a shot after the head shot. ONE. There isn't one. Instead, we find things like this...
Connally claimed he'd been hit by the second shot, ergo, the FBI and SS--from the very beginning--claimed he'd been hit by the second shot.
"Connally claimed he'd been hit by the second shot, ergo, the FBI and SS--from the very beginning--claimed he'd been hit by the second shot."
Well! Since JBC was in fact struck in the wrist by a fragment from the second shot/aka Z313 impact, this most certainly is not a complete misrepresentation on his part.
However:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him.
Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscacon.htm
I was in her lap facing forward when another shot was fired.
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I heard another shot which was the shot that was fired after Nellie had pulled me down into her lap.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_n.htm
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscacon.htm
The only thing I could do was pull him down and by leaning over him, I hoped if anything else happened, they wouldn't hurt him anymore. I never looked back after John was hit. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "they have shot my husband."
Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?
Mr. ALTGENS - Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--
There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Nope! JBC IS NOT down in the seat at this point of impact.
http://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg
Reckon perhaps, just as many of the witnesses claimed, this is in fact the second shot.
Tom.
P.S. Just for your information, the SS as well as the FBI determined the third shot impact point to be directly in front of James Altgens location, which also happens to be some 30-feet farther down Elm St. from the Z312/313 impact.
Personally, I would neither accept nor believe anything which is claimed by anyone on the subject matter.
However, I would research the facts and witness testimonies prior to stepping out on a limb when discussing the subject.
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On 3 Feb 2009 01:26:36 -0500, Brokedad <...@aol.com
1. The Warren Commission is not the factual truths.
Tom, I'm not so interested in your conclusions as to how you arrived at them. If one is convinced of fraud in the evidence, as am I, it would seem most of your points vanish rather quickly like smoke. So once again, as always, it is the integrity of the evidence that is at stake. By the way, did you mean: "The Warren Commission is not the factual truth?" Best Regards, Daniel
1. "The Warren Commission is not the factual truths."
A. The Warren Commission is an intentional obfuscation (lie) in regards to how the assassination actually occurred.
B. The Warren Commission is an intentional attempt to divert attention away from those persons of importance with whom LHO's life and activities incorporated into this event.
C. The Warren Commission is an intentional attempt to ignore the facts relative to production and manufacture of the WCC 6.5mm ammunition as well as the totally unsuportable tenure that no other weapon could have bore the serial number of the assassination weapon.
It would serve little purpose to continue with all of the "truth's" which the WC subverted, so please accept the writing in it's intention to mean the subversion of multiple aspects of the truth.
Each of which had it's own reasoning and rationale.
Tom
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On 3 Feb 2009 01:26:36 -0500, Brokedad <...@aol.com
1. The Warren Commission is not the factual truths.
2. The Warren Commission is an intentional subversion of the factual
truths.
3. LHO was an absolutely excellent shot when shooting at targets of less
than 500 yards and shooting from a fixed/stable firing position. When he
entered into the USMC he was firing within the EXPERT range, and when he
completed his basic rifle qualification, at this type firing position, he
fired in the UPPER ranges of EXPERT. (within the 94th to 96th percentile
rating)
4. The Model 91/38 Carcano Short rifle is an absolutely accurate weapon.
In fact, it fires on a comparable accuracy with the US issue M-14 rifle,
which is the basis for many of our current sniper weapons.
5. One can not state as fact that there was not a full "A-Team" of
snipers shooting at JFK on 11/22/63. However, one can state with absolute
accuracy that in the event that there was more than one shooter, then one
of the shooters completely missed everything and everyone, as:
6. JFK was struck by shots which were fired from ONLY above and behind.
7. Three shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the TSDB, and
each of the three shots fired struck JFK.
8. Of those shots fired, the second shot/aka Z313 as well as the third
shot/aka that shot which struck directly in front of James Altgens
location, both struck JFK in the head.
9. To a relatively high degree of probability, and for the most part
beyond any reasonable doubt, LHO was the shooter responsible for these
three shots.
10. Despite this, the WC remains an intentional subversion of the simple
fact: Three shots were fired, and all three shots struck their target.
(exactly why would anyone think otherwise?)
11. Despite what some may attempt to feed you, the shooting feat in
Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 was a relatively simple feat, and factually, does
not represent that great of a shooting feat.
12. The longest shot fired, being the third shot impact directly in front
of James Altgens position, was only 297 feet in distance.
13. There is absolutely nothing complicated in regards to the
shooting/shots fired in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. The difficuly lies in
unraveling all of the LIES of the Warren Commission in their attempt to
cover up the simple facts. Three shots fired---Three hits.
14. There was no "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and anyone who is foolish enough
to have fallen for and believed this, no doubt also fell for and believed
the SBT as promoted by the WC as well.
15. There is absolutely ZERO proof or evidence of any mythological
creatures and/or beings such as multiple assassins; body snatchers; easter
bunnies; the tooth fairy, or any other such creations of the imagination,
being loose and running around Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.
16. The "Six Groove Bullet" only has four grooves created by rifling in
the weapon.
17. The "Bottom Mount" sling swivel in the backyard photo's, is not a
Bottom Mount sling swivel.
18. LHO absolutely was engaged in a variety of secretive and
clandestine/covert activities. As to whether these activities were
ultimately directed at JFK or whether LHO of his on volition took it upon
himself to shoot JFK can not be determined, primarily as a result of the
complete failuire of the WC to pursue and investigate this subject.
19. The "Giant Conspiracy" which many of the CT community frequently
refer to and which often includes virtually half of the US Government as
well as in inumerable amount of other, is BS. There exists absolutely ZERO
evidence to indicate that any portion of the US Government had anything to
do with the assassination of JFK.
20. As stated, the WC is an ultimate misrepresentation of the simple
facts, three shots fired, and three hits on JFK. Nevertheless, this
misrepresentation/aka lie, has absolutely nothing to do with any
association to the actual assassination. It was purely a "POLITICAL"
maneuever.
Lastly, rest assured that those who claim to have the ability for self
thought and deductive reasoning, yet nevertheless attempt to promote the
WC's fantasies, are, far more misguided and gullible than those who know
that something is wrong with the WC solution and in their attempts to
understand have chosen the misguided pathway of multiple assassins and
body snatchers/aka wound alteration specialists.
Tom Purvis
aka/one of the Simkin Monkeys
Shot#2/aka Z313:-----------------------Survey Stationing 4+65.3
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0464b.h tm
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg
Shot#3/aka directly in front of James Altgens location: Survey
Stationing 4+95 (what was actually surveyed in for the US Secret
Service assassination reenactment of December 1963, as well as the
later FBI assassination reenactment of 2/7/64.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0449a.h tm
Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which
would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--
about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side
that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.
(note: Elm St. is 40-feet wide. As JFK passed directly in front of
James Altgens, he was approximately 20-feet from Altgens position)
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the
car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who
counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of
pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for
the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between.
There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the
head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree
of certainty.
=======================
Additional note: Without going into great detail and quoting them
all, there are multiple witnesses who observed the Z313 impact and so
testified that it was the SECOND SHOT fired.
The single best of these being:
Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age
about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to
park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place
over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and
said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat
there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston
onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left
side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of
course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at
that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had
done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good
look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when
that bullet hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that
correct?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a
little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.
Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?
Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the
head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question
in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here
another shot?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty
close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere
right along in there.
Note: James Altgens was standing across Elm St, across from "these
steps"..
====================================================================
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z349.jpg
Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the
Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now,
just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very
instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I
wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's
why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused
in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened
and that's as far as I got with my camera.
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from
behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as
he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at
the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't
upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have
just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or
something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came
right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of
his head in my direction from where I was standing,
====================================
However! One just may want to see what the WC had to say about all
this.
Mr. SPECTER. I ask you to state what that album depicts.
Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white
photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder
film----
Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334.
Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was
an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back
to include the area that we wanted to study.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a frame where President Kennedy comes into full
view after the motorcade turns left off of Houston onto Elm Street?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence,
being No. 334, fixed?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit
the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to
the President's head, and it ends at 334.
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg
Nope! No Altgens here.
Most unusual since the US Secret Service as well as the FBI have, of
record, indicated that the third shot impacted directly in front of
James Altgens.
One would think that this would be of some relevance. Especially
since Lyndal Shaneyfelt clearly marked the third shot impact location
as well as the Altgens position which was exactly five feet prior to
the yellow curb mark and exactly at a construction joint location in
the concrete curb.
Sorry Folks! This is so simple and easy that a "Caveman" could figure
it out.
And, that goes for the facts of the assassination as well as all of
the manipulations which the WC went to in order to make a shot
completely disappear from the radar screen and then sell highly
gullible persons on "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" and the SBT scenario.
Tom Purvis
"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear!"
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Thanks Tom.
--Thomas
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.
There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,
Mr. ALTGENS - I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one I don't really know, but two, I can really account for.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that's the first one and the last one?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
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But, in partial answer to your questions:
A. It is unknown as to who the shooter was. LHO most assuredly had the marksmanship ability as well as a potential motive.
That however does not mean that he was the person responsible for actually pulling the trigger.
John;
As a first time poster, let me inform you and others that to a reasonable degree of certainty, LHO was the person who pulled the trigger of the weapon that is responsible for the death of JFK.
"let me (again) inform you and others that to a reasonable degree of certainty, LHO was the person who pulled the trigger of the weapon that is responsible for the death of JFK."
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Have yet to find a location that can copy the full-sized Warren Commission Survey Plat which is about twice the size of the Time/Life; SS; & FBI plats.
When found (it will take some engineering company copy capability) then the Museum will also recieve a true and "unaltered" copy of the Warren Commission suvey plat complete with all of my scribblings.
Progressively, I will attempt to provide copies of all of Mr. West's survey notes and survey plats to the museum, as this is about the only way to insure that history does not cause this knowledge to also disappear.
Have a nice day Mr. Mack!
Thomas,
If I understand you right you have a full size copy of the survey plat of Dealey Plaza that was done for the Warren Commission. Did you get this from the National Archives?
If you're looking for someone to scan it and make a copy may I suggest that you contact Mr. Ben Rogers at Baylor University. He gave a presentation at the JFK Lancer conference in 2010 that I made a transcript of. In it he mentioned that they have a wide format scanner that can handle a 6 foot by 10 foot document. You can contact him at - Ben_Rogers@baylor.edu If you live in Texas in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area I think it would be a good thing to bring your original over and meet him. Then Baylor can have a copy of this and make it available to JFK researchers, probably much cheaper than the 6th Floor might charge.
My transcript of his presentation is here - http://justiceforkennedy.blogspot.com/2011/04/ben-rogers-presentation-from-nid-2010.html
Also, a final survey plat would have to be recorded and a copy kept with the County Clerk, I assume. I know this because in Albany, NY where I live and work one of my main duties is to scan such things and subdivision maps. So, I would think anyone could get a copy from the Dallas County Clerk of the plans of whatever the 6th Floor is up to.
The Dallas County Clerk is Mr. John F. Warren
Contact info:
Records Building 2nd Fl
509 Main St, Suite 200
Dallas, Texas 75202-3551
Phone: 214-653-7099
214-653-7176
Hours: Monday-Friday
8:00 A.M.-4:30 P.M.
Joseph Backes
Actually! I am in possession of two full-sized copies of the Warren Commission Survey Plat.
Since you are relatively new to this subject:
1. To date, I remain the only known person to have contacted the surveyor, Mr. Robert H. West, and taken the time to meet and discuss with him the assassination re-enactments in Dealey Plaza.
As such, I secured directly from Mr. West:
A. Survey Plat as well as survey notes for the Time/life assassination re-enactment of November 26, 1963.
B. Survey Plat as well as survey notes for the U.S. Secret Service assassination re-enactment of December 5, 1963.
C. Survey Plat as well as survey notes for the FBI assassination re-enactment of February 2, 1964.
D. Survey Plat as well as survey notes for the Warren Commission assassination re-enactment.
E. A final survey plat prepared for the FBI, which was done approximately one-month after the Warren Commission.
Mr. West was required to maintain copies of all survey plats which his firm generated. As such, I was able to obtain these documents as well as the ever-so-critical survey notes which were generated.
And, although I had long prior found the "altered" survey data within the WC documents, the survey plat and survey notes obtained from Mr. West, merely provided additional supportive and corroborative evidence of this alteration by the WC.
Lastly, No! I do not reside in Texas.
The survey plats and survey notes have been in my possession since the early 1990's, and they have been guarded well against their usage by those who have little or no understanding of how these documents interact with the completely phony assassination re-enactment which was conducted by the Warren Commission.
All of which the Sixth Floor Museum is also receiving as it is published.
Tom Purvis
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Have yet to find a location that can copy the full-sized Warren Commission Survey Plat which is about twice the size of the Time/Life; SS; & FBI plats.
When found (it will take some engineering company copy capability) then the Museum will also recieve a true and "unaltered" copy of the Warren Commission suvey plat complete with all of my scribblings.
Progressively, I will attempt to provide copies of all of Mr. West's survey notes and survey plats to the museum, as this is about the only way to insure that history does not cause this knowledge to also disappear.
Have a nice day Mr. Mack!
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[...] 1.8 to 1.9 seconds is more than sufficient time to operate the Carcano, acquire the target, and complete the third/last/final shot sequence. (Which by the way was NOT the Z313 impact). [...]
Tom Purvis
Tom,
In your scenario, 1) How many times did Oswald fire at JFK, and 2) To which Z-film frames do those shots correspond?
Thanks,
--Thomas
Let me rephrase the first question. In your scenario, Tom, how many times did the sixth-floor shooter (Oswald or whomever) fire at JFK?
Thanks,
--Thomas
"In your scenario,"
If it were "my scenario" then it would undoubtedly have no more merit than does most of the other BS which circulates on the subject.
But, in partial answer to your questions:
A. It is unknown as to who the shooter was. LHO most assuredly had the marksmanship ability as well as a potential motive.
That however does not mean that he was the person responsible for actually pulling the trigger.
B. Three shots were fired, and three shots struck JFK. (Exactly why would anyone believe otherwise????--Because the Warren Commission told them that of the three shots fired, one shot completely missed????----What complete idiot accepts and believes the Warren Commission??????)
C. The "scenario" has been presented here multiple times. And, is not too difficult to resolve when one recognizes that the Z313 impact was in fact the second shot fired. (Of course, it also helps somewhat to be in possession of the SS as well as the FBI assassination re-enactment survey plats which show the impact/reaction location for the first as well as the third/last shot fired.
Kind of leaves out the "guesswork".
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Sounds like he gets part of it right-----the new definitive should be head shots.
There were two shots in close succession that hit JFK's head.
And it definitely took more than one gun.
As the old country song goes: "Two out of three ain't bad"
Sounds like he gets part of it right-----the new definitive should be head shots.
Correct!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were two shots in close succession that hit JFK's head.
Correct!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And it definitely took more than one gun.
Quite Incorrect! 1.8 to 1.9 seconds is more than sufficient time to operate the Carcano, acquire the target, and complete the third/last/final shot sequence. (Which by the was IS NOT the Z313 impact).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nevertheless, a 66.6% rating still equates to a "failing grade".
Tom Purvis
only disagreement with the above, Tom: it wasn't Oswald doing the shooting.
Hope all is well down your direction...
David Healy
"it wasn't Oswald doing the shooting."
Since I was in Athens, Ohio working at the time, can't say one way or another.
He most assuredly had the marksmanship ability.
But then again, were I to attempt to frame someone, I most assuredly would not pick some poor shooter.
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I forgot to mention these quotes from Officer B.W. Hargis' interviews with the HSCA:
On November 16, 1977: "The second shot hit JFK in the head. The presidential car had slowed almost to a stop";
On August 8, 1978: "When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head - the limousine slowed so much it practically stopped...";
On December 29, 1978: "... the limousine slowed and nearly stopped ..."
The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....
Chris
My appreciation, as I had missed that Hargis also stated that the second shot (aka/the Z313 impact) struck JFK in the head.
Chaney is of record as having stated that the Preident's head "exploded" with the second shot as well.
Both statements of which are well founded in the facts and testimonies.
Tom
This is echoed By Brehm's Statement The second shot being the head shot aka "313" . and Altgens realises what they want and fluffs his lines and starts babbling.In plain sight ?.
It is "echoed" by many, to include two of the SS Agents in the followup limo.
Just that the WC (apparantly intentionally) neglected to question most of those who had reported the headshot (Z313 impact) as being the second shot.
For the official record, the Z313 is, was, and has always been the second shot!
Tom
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For those who may have interest, two full-sized copies of Mr. West's survey plats were mailed to the Sixth Floor Museum today.
These include:
1. Copy of the Time/Life survey plat of November 26, 1963, along with copies of the survey notes.
2. Copy of the FBI survey plat of June 1964, in which the third/last/final shot had been deleted.
It is presumed that at some point in time, these documents will be made available for viewing by the general public.
Tom Purvis
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I forgot to mention these quotes from Officer B.W. Hargis' interviews with the HSCA:
On November 16, 1977: "The second shot hit JFK in the head. The presidential car had slowed almost to a stop";
On August 8, 1978: "When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head - the limousine slowed so much it practically stopped...";
On December 29, 1978: "... the limousine slowed and nearly stopped ..."
The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....
Chris
My appreciation, as I had missed that Hargis also stated that the second shot (aka/the Z313 impact) struck JFK in the head.
Chaney is of record as having stated that the Preident's head "exploded" with the second shot as well.
Both statements of which are well founded in the facts and testimonies.
Tom
-
Sounds like he gets part of it right-----the new definitive should be head shots.
There were two shots in close succession that hit JFK's head.
And it definitely took more than one gun.
As the old country song goes: "Two out of three ain't bad"
Sounds like he gets part of it right-----the new definitive should be head shots.
Correct!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were two shots in close succession that hit JFK's head.
Correct!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And it definitely took more than one gun.
Quite Incorrect! 1.8 to 1.9 seconds is more than sufficient time to operate the Carcano, acquire the target, and complete the third/last/final shot sequence. (Which by the was IS NOT the Z313 impact).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nevertheless, a 66.6% rating still equates to a "failing grade".
Tom Purvis
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President-elect Barack Obama, although technically a Baby Boomer, tends to identify with younger Americans. And younger Americans, for the most part, really don't care about the JFK assassination. When you're 30, something that happened 45 years ago is "prehistory" to you...you realy can't identify with the sorrow and the angst of a generation that witnessed JFK's funeral, because you didn't witness it yourself, and you have no idea of the tremendous level of grief that the nation felt that long weekend in November, 1963.
My son was born nearly 17 years after the JFK assassination. While he has an appreciation for history, he also tells me that "we really don't care," referring to his generation. His argument is that the perpetrators are most likely dead, and they got away with it, and their reasons for doing the deed [whether Vietnam, Cuba, mob-related, or whatever] are probably moot as well in this day and age. He tells me that my obsession with discovering the truth of the JFK assassination is simply a part of my personality that he accepts and overlooks, much like my OCD about many other things.
And I believe his attitude is fairly widespread. Unfortunately, we simply can't FORCE people to give a damn...and that, I believe, is going to be the greatest obstacle to getting anyone within the government to act.
Including the new President.
Quite Correct!
In fact, other than those who continue to chase mythological creatures, few could care about the facts of the assassination.
The "works" of which you and others are in possession of was, for the most part completed, just about the time that the movie "JFK" came out.*
Naturally, everyone wanted to get in on the bandwagon of the JFK Conspiracy scenario('s), and anything factual was a waste of time and about like P*ssing up a rope.
For that, and other reasons, the facts were shelved until such time as (a) some form of mass distribution was available, or (
I reached old age and could care less about the expense to present the information.(a) above pretty well failed as even though the internet came into existences, about the only ones who follow the JFK assassination, are somewhat "squirrely" in their belief's. (Multiple assassins; body snatchers; giant government conspiracies;, although believed by many, are more likely to turn-off anyone who things with any sense of logical reasoning).
So, option (
came into play!And, although it is not expected that in my lifetime I will see the overall general acceptance of option (
, it is nevertheless in print and can not be made to completely disappear from the historical scene.*A few additional questions were answered with the release of the "closed" files as a result of the JFK Records Act.
Have a nice (informed) day.
Tom
P.S. May publishing will be out next week.
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Which of course leaves the slightly elongated hole which is located just below the bottom edge of the collar as being the bullet entrance point for the third/last/final shot impact.
Factually incorrect.
There is no "slightly elongated hole."
That's a slice and a puncture point.
Since it is a complete waste of time to argue with someone such as yourself, who actually knows virtually nothing relative to the factual evidence, then for those who may have curosity as to whether or not the hole is in fact slightly "elongated":
Might I recommend that they do as I long ago did, acquire a Carcano & ammo, and then proceed to shoot the bullets through a coat similar to that worn by JFK.
A true/almost straight-on hit is almost impossible to see, other than close-up.
And, if they will also acquire the laboratory notes of Henry Heiberger* they will see that Henry ran a spectrographic analysis test on the liner portion of this hole and came up with a "positive" for copper.
*Henry is now long deceased and it is most unlikely that anyone here has the necessary qualifications to bring him back from the dead in order to fully qualify where he took his "control" sample from.
But, for those who can read, his notes will tell that he took it from UNDER the collar.
Lastly, one can not help but notice that CE393 does not show the underside of the collar from where Henry Heiberger actually took his "control" sample.
P.S. The "Control" sample location for the back wound penetration was taken from within the left inseam of the coat.
There are those who may be a self-proclaimed expert on how tailored clothing fits, and there are those of us who actually examined the factual evidence.
Tell us about exactly how many times it was that you spoke with and questioned Henry Heiberger,no doubt, inquiring minds want to know.
I reached old age and could care less about the expense to present the information.
Eyewitness Malcolm Summers
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Most Fortunately!
For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.