Len Colby

Bill I some how missed your article when it first was posted. My first reaction was, 'where’s the documentation?' my second was "where's the beef?" Can you say succinctly what you think the 2 or 3 or the 3 or 4 biggest "smoking guns" are? Len EDIT -typos

What does any of this have to do with the very specific topic of this thread? There are more generic 9/11 threads where the above post would have been more appropriate. As for ‘Loose Change’ it is so full of errors it should be redubbed ‘Loose with the Facts’ it has been pretty well debunked at http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/ It is even being questioned with in the “truth community” http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/loose_change.html http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/index.html And Mike Ruppert’s timeline? http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/ (No I don’t agree with the site’s Rightwing slant) http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/Post911/Solomon1.html http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/conspiracism-911.html http://www.alternet.org/story/12536 Ruppert’s reliability has also been questioned with in the truth movement http://www.wingtv.net/ruppert10.html For a general debunking of 911 myths including those pushed in ‘Loose Change’ and Ruppert http://www.911myths.com/ http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

I thought that was ammusing to. The first thing that stuck me was that it didn't cite any sources.

Jr. was closer in age to RFK than his dad, according to his (Jr.'s) official site "He also spent time at the Justice Department working under then Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy."* If he was the one who made that claim I'd "take it with a grain of salt" as he was known for making things up like the infamous incident when he faked being attacked by neo-Nazi's. *http://www.mortondowneyjrhome.com/bio.html Edited to add text in blue

I admit I'm guilty as charged send me before the firing squad, I wasn’t sure if your collection was of Dallas, Ft. Worth or both. Note that I expressed a degree of uncertainty in my post. In any case as Bill pointed out it shouldn’t be too hard for someone living in the same metropolitan region as Dallas, esp. I might add one who is an experienced photo collector, to get his hands on some photos of that city from the time of the assassination? According to Yahoo it’s only 33 miles from one city to the other, if you live in an eastern suburb of Ft. Worth as indicated in your Spartacus bio the distance would be even less. Never said or indicated they were Very impressive, sounds like you work for the chamber of commerce! Funny this from some guy just caught trying to “pull a fast one” on other members of the forum with a history of being deceptive. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=67615

I thought it was rather obvious, but since you're a bit slow on the up take I'll explain it to you. Jack claims that the changing of the position, style and size of the lampposts was anomalous and insinuated that the city of Dallas was aiding in the cover-up. If he could show that other lampposts in downtown Dallas (esp. in locations near DP) are exactly as they were the day Kennedy was shot that would strengthen his case, conversely if he couldn't turn up a single case of an unchanged lamppost in the city that would indicate that, as we expect from your camp, he is talking nonsense. Since you have Rollie's e-mail I suggest you ask him yourself. Why do you always bring up Zavada's thesis whenever you reply to me even when as now it has nothing to do with the subject at hand? This is really a loosing proposition for you as every time you drag this up I point out that 1) 6 weeks BEFORE Rollie PRIVATELY said he would produce a new reply to your foolery and that it would "take sometime" you promised to make you "formal claim soon". 2) He is in poor health. 6 weeks after you post your "formal claim" ask me again about Zavada. At that point we will have to figure out how much more time to afford something promised to "take sometime" compared to something promised "soon". All that I agreed to do was post stuff on Roland's behalf

I have a challenge for Jack. Jack you own, if I'm not mistaken, a very large collection of historic photos of Dallas. Can you show us any photos taken in that city around the time of the assassination where the lampposts are exactly as they are today? Hopefully the locations will be close to DP. If you fail to produce such photos I'll take it as an admission on your part you can't find any photos of lampposts in the city that are exactly as they were over 40 years ago. Len PS - Jack you are in violation of the forum rule requiring all members to provide a bio. The link at the bottom of your posts leads to a generic page from your ISP/host.

<H3 style="MARGIN: auto 0in; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>Amifostine-Induced Fever: Case Report and Review of the Literature</H3><H4 style="MARGIN: auto 0in; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>Sabrina Boehme, Pharm.D., and David B. Wilson, B.S.</H4>Amifostine, also known as WR-2721 (S-2-(3-aminopropylamino)-ethylphosphorothioic acid), is an organic thiophosphate cytoprotective agent used to reduce the frequency of severe xerostomia in patients with cancer undergoing postoperative radiation of the head and neck. A 56-year-old Caucasian man who received concomitant chemotherapy and radiation for head and neck cancer developed fever concurrent with the administration of amifostine. To our knowledge, this is the first case report that demonstrates the occurrence of fever with low-dose amifostine therapy without the manifestation of accompanying rash or hypotension. Patients receiving amifostine who develop only fever should be evaluated for an adverse drug reaction, as well as for sepsis and fevers of neutropenia, and it may be necessary to discontinue the drug. Recognition of amifostine as the cause of this adverse event may prevent the cost and inconvenience of a hospital admission. Key Words: amifostine, fever, fever-rash syndrome <H3 style="MARGIN: auto 0in; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>Amifostine-Induced Fever: Case Report and Review of the Literature</H3><H4 style="MARGIN: auto 0in; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>Sabrina Boehme, Pharm.D., and David B. Wilson, B.S.</H4>Amifostine, also known as WR-2721 (S-2-(3-aminopropylamino)-ethylphosphorothioic acid), is an organic thiophosphate cytoprotective agent used to reduce the frequency of severe xerostomia in patients with cancer undergoing postoperative radiation of the head and neck. A 56-year-old Caucasian man who received concomitant chemotherapy and radiation for head and neck cancer developed fever concurrent with the administration of amifostine. To our knowledge, this is the first case report that demonstrates the occurrence of fever with low-dose amifostine therapy without the manifestation of accompanying rash or hypotension. http://www.pharmacotherapy.org/reprints/pharmacotherapy/pharm2401.html Certain drugs may abrogate the damaging effects of anthracyclines on the heart. For example, dexrazoxane (ADR-529) is a metal chelator that decreases the myocardial toxicity of doxorubicin in breast cancer patients and has recently been approved for this use by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). 83 Dexrazoxane chelates iron and copper, thereby interfering with the redox reactions that generate free radicals and produce damage of myocardial lipids. Similar protective effects have been suggested for amifostine, an organic thiophosphate that is dephosphorylated to form a reactive thiol (N-2-mercaptoethyl-1,3,-diaminopropane), a free radical scavenger. However, insufficient clinical data are available to recommend amifostine for cardioprotection. 83 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=cmed6.section.13081 NIH has 518 article referring to “therapeutic uses of amifostine” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&term="Amifostine/therapeutic+use"[MAJR] Pesticides that have a sulfur in place of the oxygen double-bonded to the phosphorus are called thiophosphates. ❑ Improper storage of pesticides often leads to accidental ingestion and contact by children and adults. [...] Most occupational exposures to organophosphates and carbamates occur from skin absorption, although inhalation may be an important route of exposure during pesticide manufacture and application. Skin absorption can occur when dermal contact is made during handling and application of the insecticide, and when contact is made with chemical residues on plants, fruits, and foliage; in soil; and on dust particles after spraying. Some organophosphate insecticides (thiophosphates) are applied in the sulfur-containing (-thion) form but readily undergo desulfuration (removal of a sulfur atom from the molecule) to form a more toxic oxygen-containing (-oxon) form. In the field, this conversion occurs slowly under the influence of oxygen and light, often producing residues that are not only more toxic but more readily absorbed through the skin. [...] Organophosphate and carbamate compounds, either alone or in combination with other insecticides, account for most pesticide-related poisonings. Poisonings have resulted from suicidal, homicidal, and accidental exposures. With improper storage, children, as well as adults, can mistake these chemicals for liquor, medicine, or other consumables. Pesticides usually contain solvent carriers such as toluene or xylene that are labeled as inert ingredients but may produce toxic effects in a pesticide ingestion. (The inert ingredients included on the labels of most pesticide containers refer to their application as a pesticide and not to their toxicologic activity.) Hence, the treatments suggested on pesticide container labels often are incomplete. Consumers should consult a physician or the regional poison control center if poisoning is suspected. OCR for page 566 Environmental Medicine: Integrating a Missing Element into Medical Education Biologic Fate ❑ Organophosphate and carbamate insecticides can cause systemic poisoning when absorbed by any route. ❑ Thiophosphate insecticides may be converted in vivo and in the environment to an organophosphate that has greater skin penetration and clinical effects than the parent compound. Organophosphate and carbamate pesticides are absorbed readily by inhalation, ingestion, and skin absorption. The water solubility of some organophosphate and carbamate pesticides allows them to be absorbed by plants and also to act as systemic poisons in both insects and mammals. Because these compounds are distributed rapidly throughout the body, they typically are associated with rapid onset of symptoms, rarely longer than a few hours after a toxic exposure. However, the more lipid-soluble organophosphates, such as chlorfenthion and fenthion, can undergo initial lipid storage with subsequent redistribution and may not produce medical crisis for several days. Symptoms can persist for several weeks and periodic relapses can occur, requiring additional therapy. In the body, as well as in the environment, some organophosphates can be converted from the -thion form to the more toxic -oxon form; rates of conversion vary widely but are more rapid in vivo than in the environment. In the body, conversion is brought about chiefly by hepatic microsomal esterases. Ultimately, both the -thion and -oxon forms are usually metabolized to alkyl phosphates and other products that are of relatively low toxicity and are excreted rapidly. Carbamates are also metabolized in the liver, and the products are excreted in urine without evidence of significant accumulation. Physiologic Effects Neurobehavioral Effects ❑ Acetylcholinesterase, which is critical to control of nerve impulse transmission, is inhibited by organophosphate and carbamate pesticides. Organophosphate and carbamate compounds share a common pathophysiology—they combine with and thereby inhibit cholinesterase enzymes, of which acetylcholinesterase (AChE) in nerve tissue is the most important. Inactivation of AChE results in accumulation of acetylcholine at the neuroreceptor transmission site, resulting in massive overstimulation of the cholinergic system. Initially, a weak reversible bond is formed between AChE and the organophosphate or carbamate pesticide. http://books.nap.edu/books/0309051401/html/562.html Newer pesticides are designed to target specific pests, thus minimizing the impact on the rest of the ecosystem. Ideally these materials decompose quickly to "harmless" chemicals, after they kill whatever they are designed to kill. However, no matter what we do to improve the process, pesticides are still poisons. Examples of these newer pesticides include Sevin (a carbamate) and Malathion (a thiophosphate). These are more “natural” looking, and therefore biodegradable. http://www.science.fau.edu/chemistry/mdj/chm3085/drugs.prn.pdf

LOL Craig (and Tink if you’re out there) cannabis.com doesn’t that ring any bells? White’s sidekick Fetzer cited the same site as a reliable source too! In that case as to the existence of an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) weapon capable of downing a plane! To give Jack some credit at least he cited it relating to something related to the site’s topic. I suggest that Jack’s omission of a link or the name of the site was hardly an oversight, he is normally very good about providing links and why be coy about the sites name? Unfortunately he has a history of omitting information that could contradict his points: he often leaves out the reference numbers of Apollo images and often it turns out that the uncropped full resolution version doesn’t support his claims and there is the infamous incident where he cropped out all signs of the fire in a photo the Pentagon on 9/11 and claimed it was taken AFTER it was extinguished. The author of the article Jack cited provided no sources for his “sodium morphate” claim, nor are we told his credentials. It would be good to get someone with medical knowledge on this thread but I imagine any derivative of morphine would require a fairly large dose to be fatal and would be easily detectable. Even if the drug wasn’t detectable at the beginning of the 20th century there is no reason to believe it would still be undetectable today. http://www.theconspiracy.us/vol6/cn6-47.html Has anybody read Summer’s book? Does he source his claim about thiophospate? It is not it turns out a single compound but a group of chemicals some or which are used as pesticides but another is used to reduced the side effects radiotherapy and there are studies suggesting it is “cardioprotective” this would suggest that a very high dose would be required to be fatal. The pesticide version is highly toxic but the references I found don’t support the notion that a contact dose placed on someone’s “toilet articles” would be fatal or would induce heart problems since it affects the nervous system [see other post below] Since Lay was at home at around 1:30 in the morning I wonder how any Bush flunkies could have poisoned him? Injecting him with a syringe and not be detected would be impossible, a dart would leave an obvious sign, spiking his food would be risky because someone else could eat it. Dusting his “toilet articles” also would present a risk of poisoning someone else and does such a poison exist? The only thing left would be adding poison to medication he took, but was he taking any medication?

I’m not sure why the death of a disgraced 64 year-old man facing loosing all his assets and spending the rest of his life in prison of a heart attack should be particularly suspicious. In a preliminary finding the coroner determined he died of ‘clogged coronary arteries’ [note indirect quote - http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060706/BUSINESS07/607060346/-1/BUSINESS07 ] and found “"no evidence of foul play," [ http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/05/news/newsmakers/lay_death/index.htm?cnn=yes ]. I also doubt had much dirt to spill on Bush, he was convicted by federal prosecutors based on evidence gathered by the FBI and other federal agencies and was facing a civil suit from the SEC and criminal forfeiture proceeding by federal prosecutors. I presume if he knew anything worth being killed over Bush and his cohorts would have let him off in exchange for his silence or bumped him off before he got convicted. I doubt a Bush appointed prosecutor would have made a deal with Lay that would involve incriminating the president and in the off chance he would such deals are normally made before conviction. His heirs however had motive to kill him. According to various reports his conviction will almost certainly be vacated which should block prosecutors’ attempts to seize his assets. According to a Houston lawyer his death would limit how much civil claimants could collect “if a defendant is deceased, civil claimants can't seek punitive damages. Any civil lawsuits would have to be limited to compensatory damages, or those losses that were actually incurred by an individual [ibid] As for the claim that he had a history of heart disease I saw no mention of this in any of the dozen or so articles about his death that I read. Was he poisoned? From the info I’ve seen so far I’d say possible but not very probable. The Washington Post wrote about the claim in Wikipedia that he died of suicide http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/05/AR2006070501068.html And sodium morphate? I have seen no evidence that it really exists. I googled and all I found was forums and CT sites nothing scientific or medical. I searched a few sites with information about poisons and came up blank. I found no evidence that morphate is a real substance apart from references to sodium morphate it appears to exist only as a verb as a (grammatically incorrect) variation of ‘to morph’. It go zero matches on several databases [ http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/result.asp ]. The name suggests a compound of sodium with a substance that begins with ‘morph’. Morphine can of course be fatal but only in very high doses and would be easily detectable. According to the database linked above there are several other chemicals that begin with that syllable if anyone wants to do the research to find a more likely candidate for ‘morph’ knock your self out. ‘-ate’ as a suffix only returned a handful of results. According to Webster’s it refers to a “chemical compound or complex anion derived from a (specified) compound or element <phenolate>; especially : salt or ester of an acid with a name ending in -ic and not beginning with hydro” ´[ http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary/-ate . I have found no evidence that substance named morphic exists. It sounds like a myth to me. The more his critics level nonsense charges at Bush the less undecided people will take his real crimes seriously

I fail to see what the big deal is? Is the city of Dallas expected to maintain DP exactly as it was Nov. 22 1963 forever? They changed the location of the lamposts who cares as Bill pointed out this won't affect recreations of images taken that day. Jack you live in Dallas (or is it Ft. Worth) are you sure the lamposts and street signs etc in front of your house amnd elsewhere in the city haven't moved in the last 43 years or so? Did you check to to see if lampposts were moved away from the curd elsewhere in the city? As for them having moved it or changed its base etc 4 times even if its true its been a long time, once it was moved from its original location what difference would all subsiquent moves and changes make? No apperent purpose you say, what is your training in urban planning / traffic engineering. Can you show that posts elsewhere have undergone similar changes? One change per decade does not strike me as suspicious.

Add to that the fact that the 'precrash' fireball didn't appear live at the time. The "webfairy" is one of the least credible members of the "truth" movement. She pushes the theory that the Twin Towers weren't hit by planes but rather holographic projections that were blue screened into film and video (much of it broadcast live) of the 'impacts' or something like that. Her site still has Holocaust denial and "the Jews did it" pages thought they are no longer linked to the main page, but that's another story!

Perhaps Mr. White can explain the provenance of that clip. The site claim it came from a DVD but I don't remember seeing the pre-crash fireball in any other clips

Yes, I do have this tendency, which is why I'm currently reexamining things, hopefully to arrive at a more balanced or at least more nuanced position. Most political activism can entail reductionism of this sort. It isn't a fault of youth alone. But I think youth is a large part of it. Intelligent people realize as they get older to see the nuisances less intelligent people don’t, some intelligent people are so blinded by ideology they don’t either. You don’t strike me as an idiot or a fanatic so there’s hope for you yet. Unfortunately you are right about many, I don’t know if it applies to most political activists, all to many are blind to the gray areas. That's not the main argument. I never said that it was, but that seems to be what shapes Jared Israel’s outlook and to a large extent yours. As I indicated on that thread, I don’t really have the time to research that. Even if the bodies there really where KLA guerrillas it doesn’t mean that the Serb weren’t guilty of ethnic cleansing in other cases especially Bosnia. I note that you haven’t started a thread about that yet. As you pointed there was no massacre in Jenin, does it then follow then that the Israelis have never used inappropriate force against the Palestians? Does the invasion of Gaza mean that you should reevaluate your conclusion about that incident? In any case I gave that as an example I don’t want to get dragged into a debate over the Balkans. You are quite correct about this. For instance, Bosnian Muslim leader Fikret Abdic (a true moderate, and more popular than Izetbegovic) did the right thing and sided with the Serbs. Read his story here, here, and here. Exactly normally these conflicts are usually more complex than the X’s, the evil ethnic group vs. the Y’s, the righteous ethnic group. I only skimmed two of your links two didn’t cite any sources, one cited lots of sources but all the links I clicked on were to dead. Exactly, the incidents should be judged on their own merits, which is what I do. The historical context is useful for understanding motivation and context. My reply was motivated by your comment that you would reexamine your entire outlook on the Arab-Israeli conflict base on the invasion of Gaza, that is the opposite of judging each situation on its own merits. Again this contradicts judging each situation on it’s merits You provided some documentation for this with Tudjman in your latest post, what about Izetbrgovic? The best place for that would be a different thread. Tudjman it should be noted fought with Tito against the Nazis. In any case Tudjman was facing inditement by the same court as Milosevic. Many Croats claim that his crimes were hoaxs just as you claim Milosovic's crimes were.

Owen I don’t think any one on this forum will disagree with you about that. It’s my impression that you try to frame longstanding complex ethnic-religious conflicts into an overly simplistic unnuanced ‘righteous good guys’ vs. ‘evil bad guys’ reality. But unfortunately the world is a lot more complicated than that and figuring out who is / was right or wrong is not so easy – normally both sides have their share of blame. Just because the Israelis are in the wrong in this instance in 2006 doesn’t mean they were in the wrong (for example) during the Six-Day War in 1967 or even in other action taken this year. Conversely just because about 6 millions Jews were murdered by the Nazis and some Muslims / Arabs cooperated with them (the Nazis) doesn’t mean the Jews always were / are / forever will be the goods guys / innocent victims and Muslims / Arabs always were / are / and forever will be the evil bad guys. The same applies to the Balkans. One of the arguments advanced by you and Jared Israel is more or less, “The Serbs were victims of Nazi genocide and Bosnian Muslims and Croats were their allies, therefore 40 -50 years later the Serbs are really the innocent good guys trying to defend themselves and the Croats and Bosnians are the real aggressors.” Again we can’t infer one from the other. While it is important to look at these conflicts in their historical contexts it is a mistake not to judge each incident on its own merits especially when they are separated by decades and the players are not even the same people but the children, grandchildren or even great-grandchildren of those involved in the earlier conflicts. The Polish were wrong to attack the USSR in 1919 that doesn’t mean that the Soviet invasion of Poland in cahoots with the Nazi’s was justified. The Tutsis cooperated with the harsh colonial rule of the Germans and Belgians in Rwanda, does this justify the Hutu slaughter of Tutsis? Such a view is also overly simplistic because, because well, it’s overly simplistic. Not all Tutsis cooperated with the Belgians and not all Hutus cooperated with their slaughter (indeed many Hutus were killed). During WWII there were Serbs, Croats, Bosnians etc who cooperated with the Nazis and Serbs, Croats, Bosnians etc who resisted them. Is Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip a brutal over reaction? Yes. Does that mean Israelis and Jews who settled in Palestine 1882 – 1948 have always been in the wrong? No. Were Jews victims of Nazi genocide in the 1940’s? Yes. Did many Arabs and Muslims including the Mufti of Jerusalem, perhaps the father of Palestinian nationalism, eagerly cooperate with the Nazis? Yes. Does this justify everything the Israelis have done? No. You are obviously a very smart and sincere guy. You are also (I hope this doesn’t seem to patronizing) quite young. When we are young we tend to simply things into moral absolutes black and white good versus evil, as we get older we realize things aren’t so simple there are lots of gray areas.

Great article. I totally agree. (Living in Austin I have been a fan of Alex Jones for a long time now. His web site is infowars.com). Conspiracy/critical thinking is not about "left wing" or "right wing". It is about what our government has done to we the people. It's time we find a way to take it back. Jack, there are plenty of agendas here, sadly. Dawn Dawn, I'll ask you the same question I asked Jack, "What part of, "...for years, I've been waiting for there to be a military coup to depose these traitors. There actually was one weekend, where I said to myself, my God, it's going to happen this weekend, and I'm going to wake up and they will have taken these guys off in chains", did you fail to comprehend?" I find your agreement with Jack especially odd in light of the fact that Fetzer himself replied here and didn't claim he meant a revolt by the people. Also as mentioned above a (now ex) member of Fetzer's group ST911 was bothered by the comments enough to ask him about them. He was suspended from the group supposedly for using ST911's logo on a forum without authorization, but he suspects the suspension might have been in related to questioning Fetzer about the remarks. John Austin who is a also a member of ST911 understood Fetzer's comments as indicating he hoped the military would depose Bush [ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jfk-research/message/4758 ] as did members of another forum [ http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=42548&page=3 ] (read from message 84 onward) as did Steve and Dan here. Do you think all of them have an agenda too? Just what do you think our agendas are? I am surprised you take Alex Jones seriously even most conspiracists I know think of him as a bad joke or embarrassment with all his talk about the "Illuminati", "Skull and Bones" and "the occult practices of the global elite" and opposition to gun control. Len PS -Conspiracy thinking and Critical thinking are by no means the same thing. In MOST (not all) cases they are opposites

Two true stories. Years ago I ran a small English course in the Brazilian city Recife. My partner was a Brazilian old enough to be my dad who had returned to his homeland after decades in the US. He went by his American nickname Ray. To reduce costs we shared classroom / office space with an eccentric guy, who gave classes in a few subjects including speed reading and the use of HP business calculators, nicknamed Freddy. Our secretary / receptionist fell ill for a few weeks so Freddy, Ray and I took turns filling in for her. One day a couple came in at around 1:20 and asked me, (in Portuguese of course) "Is Freddy here?" I told them I didn't expect him in till his next class at 4 o'clock but wasn't sure. They told me they had a 1:30 appointment with him so I suggested they wait. At 1:40 there was still no sign of Freddy so I called his house, there was no answer. A few minutes after two they left in disgust. I saw Freddy a few hours later and told him what had happened, "Noooo", he told me, "they're crazy, the appointment was for tomorrow!" Since the couple was elderly I accepted that explanation but over the course of the two weeks or so there were several similar incidents, Ray and the receptionist (after she go better) told me about other occasions when people came to see Freddy but he forgot to show up. Every time he gave the same explanation THEY got confused about the time or date. I didn't say what Freddy's most popular class was, "Memory Improvement Techniques". Note: Some people may find some the language used in the next story offensive One day Freddy invited me to his house for lunch. Freddy was an animal lover, his house resembled a menagerie. He took advantage of my presence to check his English (except for the words in single quote marks ('x') the dialogue from this paragraph was in Portuguese). He pointed to an old mutt and asked me "that is a 'dog', right? I was feeling a bit mischievous so I told him, "no, since it's a female it's called a 'bitch' ", a feline walked by and his asked me, "Is that a 'cat' " I replied "Yes but they are also know as 'pussies' " and I practiced the pronunciation of the singular form with him. Off in the backyard a rooster cackled, Freddy looked at me proudly and asked "This is a 'chicken, yes' ". No I told him 'chickens' are female males are 'cocks'. A month later Freddy invited both of us (Ray and me) to lunch. We took the bus up together. Freddy greeted us and was eager to show off his newly acquired English to Ray. "Look my bitch!" he said with a huge smile entirely in English as the dog came to sniff us and we tried to maintain our composure, this was followed by "Look my pussy!", switching to Portuguese he asked Ray "do you want to pet her?". At his point we had huge smirks on our faces as we fought in the laughter but Freddy was oblivious, Ray flashed me a 'I know you had something to do with this' look. Freddy showed Ray around introducing him to his family and the multitude of animals when the rooster popped out from behind some old crates. Speaking in English again he cried out "Look my cock" then beaming reverted to his mother tongue "next time you guys come here I'll chop his head off and we'll eat him for lunch! Len Dedicated to Raimundo 'Ray' Souza R.I.P. (1938 - 1997)xyacetyleneoxyacetylene

A member of ST911 which now calls itself S911T or SfT disagreed with Fetzer’s call for a coup. He was suspended from the group by Fetzer and resigned. The suspension might have caused by the ex-member’s creation of an open forum to discuss the groups articles rather than the disagreement. Perhaps Fetzer would be willing to clarify that here. http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=42548&page=6 Apparently Fetzer or Jones can arbitrarily suspend or expel any member of the group without consulting other members or even each other and without explaining the reason for the expulsion. Fetzer’s tendency to dictatorial control fits with his endorsement of a coup and violence against the news media. I don't think Fetzer is an "agent provoceteur" just a genuine nutcase. I would be surprised if the FBI thought of infiltrating a couple of agents provoceteurs in the group but then realized that it wouldn't be nessicary. Len PS - I remember the good ol days when HAARP was a typo for 1) a tasty Irish beer. 2) a large string instument 3) short for harmonica 4) a type of seal 5) to talk continuosly about something

I'm not really into splitting hairs but I'll reword the sentence to meet your objections. "If as your speculative response goes the Pentagon didn't plant WMD's in Iraq because of a rift with the CIA it's hard to believe they would or even could cooperate on an operation like 9/11." You seem to believe that top brass at the Pentagon was involved in 9/11 or at least that there is a strong possibility they were involved. Do you suspect the CIA may have been involved too? Len

I'm not sure which theory you don't think anyone is expounding. 9/11 MIHOP/LIHOP theories are like Baskin-Robbins, they come in over 31 flavors but most varieties include collusion between at least some the agencies above (esp. NORAD, the CIA and FBI) or atleast high level rouge elements with in them. If as your theory goes the Pentagon didn't plant WMD's in Iraq because of a rift with the CIA it's hard to believe they would or even could cooperate on an operation like 9/11. Rivalry is not limited to the CIA and the Pentagon. There are FBI - CIA, CIA -State Dept, Pentagon - State Dept turf battles also. Unfortunately not, I have satellite TV but it doesn't carry PBS. I've been told it can be download or watched online but my sound card ain't working I might be contradicted by the documentary but I always associated the idea of WMD's in Iraq more with "the Agency" than the Pentagon. After the quick capture of Baghdad and the failure to find WMD's the military were looking pretty good and the CIA had "egg on its face". Could it perhaps have been the other way round? "The Company" wanting to plant evidence of WMD's but were blocked by their rivals in uniform. Len

A resonable explaination is that you are smarter and know more about the subject than Bush. It was perhaps an idea he tossed out we have no way of knowing if he had run the idea by any of his advisors before the meeting. Bush's people didn't claim the memo was a fake which I imagine they would have done if it was. They even tactly seemed to admit it was authentic, a spokeman said that nothing in the memo contradicted his public pronouncements. Len EDIT - typo Doesn't this cast doubt on the theory that various elements of the US government: The Pentagon, USAF, NORAD, FBI, INS, State Dept., CIA, FAA etc closely cooperated to pull off 9/11?

It's true I initially misidentified the publication as the SF Chronicle. That really doesn't change the substance of my post or the article it cites. Jim - Considering the numerous errors in your published works (as opposed to a forum posting) you are not one to complain. Who for example found the duplicate log book? Where there discrepancies between the "the pilots' log books" or "the pilot's log books"? What frequency was the radio on when the plane crashed? What and when was the last transmission from the plane? It is not reasonable expect a journalist to report every word every person he speaks to tells him. He had to be selective and choose. The total story length was under 3300 words in addition to Fetzer he quoted, Dr. Steve Jones, Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin and other attendees at the conference as well as (briefly) some scientists who support the collapse theory and had to give background information. The two sentences that were not included would not have made much difference and have nothing to do with Fetzer dismissing the 911myths site without even taking a look. Jim - Considering all the information contrary to your theory about the Wellstone crash you left out of your book and articles you are hardly one to complain about omissions – for example don't you think it is relevant that: Conry, the crash pilot, told a childhood friend who was also a pilot that he had difficulty flying and landing the very type of plane that crashed or that one of the two pilots his wife said he most confided in at the company suggested that he retire after flying with him 3 days before the crash or that Conry told his wife that the other pilots though that Guess, the co-pilot, was a bad pilot; or that Guess had been fired from his only previous piloting job for incompetence? I guess you just could find space for those facts in your 180 page book or any of the various articles you wrote about the crash. Selective quoting is a specialty of the 9/11 "Truth" Movement too. Jim – At least be clear and consistent in your replies. Do you or don't think it would be a good idea for the military to overthrow Bush? Who is to guarantee civil war wouldn't break out? Even if elements in the military tried such a thing there would be widespred military and civilian opposition. Who is to guarantee that if they were successful that they wouldn't military/police state but rather turn over power to civilians? After most coups the return to democratic rule took years. Since the Constitution doesn't anticipate a coup who would they turn power over to? All the people constitutionally in the line of succession are Republicans all but two of them Bush appointees. What kind of precedent would be set? At some other point might not a group of generals feel justified in deposing a president they didn't like? People like you are a menace to progressive causes because when independent voters in middle America hear the kind of nonsense you spout it makes them less likely to support such causes and vote for candidates who support them. There are serious questions about whether votes are being fairly counted, most Americans don't believe Bush intentionally altered the intelligence concerning WMD's. It becomes more difficult get people to take these allegations seriously when some of the people speaking up about them also endorse a coup as a possible solution to America's problems or saying the Pentagon wasn't hit by a jetliner. The points you addressed in your presentation are irrelevant to this discussion because they are not in dispute. Your apparent call for a coup and support for that idea by the audience are and you said these weren't recorded, how very conveinient for you! Len

One can't misrepresent information they don't posses as it implies an intent to deceive I based my comments on an account of Fetzer's comments from a respected publication. According to Fetzer's logic that's not enough. Nice attempt at FUD but: 1) I "trashed" him for proposing a coup d'etat not merely discussing the idea. If he was misquoted by the Chronicle for Higher Education a well respected publication, the fault is not mine. 2) I am not calling for censorship but there are ideas which reasonable people would not consider worthy of discussion: "Was the Holocaust a good thing?", "Are George Bush and Queen Elizabeth etc really shape-shifting lizard people?", "Did God create the World in 6 days?" are a few examples. Ann Coulter is upset because "godless secularist" liberals reject the idea that African Americans are inherently less intelligent than Whites [ http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.p...=15708&o=ANN001 search the page for "bell curve"]. 3) My track record here and on other forums shows that I don't normally "trash" people for discussing "controversial issues" after initially expressing discomfort with the idea I supported Michael Collins Piper being allowed to join the forum. I did however crticize him for his exposal of Holocaust denial, how close minded of me! Jim – Don't forget that saying about people who live in glass houses, your published works about the Wellstone crash and Zapruder film are replete with omissions, distortions and outright falsehoods. I believe my reputation among most members is a decent one, I've gotten positive feedback publicly and privately. In any case I am not the source of the quote. I urge all interested parties to read the article in it entirety consider the reputation of the publication and Fetzer's track record. Jim – You are contradicting yourself again, you said that the question session was not available, what would the benefit be of watching to you ramble and rave on for an hour if the disputed question and answer aren't included? Aren't you just milking this as an excuse to promote your presentation. The above is indicative of Jim's circular logic, he believes that people who disagree with him are either: 1) "intellectually challenged" (he USED to say that about me, now he thinks I'm clever), 2) mentally unstable (he used to say that about me too!) 3) dishonest operators with an agenda (my current classification) and probably a government operative (he has accused me of this in the past, typically with out any evidence) or 4) some combination of the above. Since his and his clique's theories haven't proven popular here he takes it as proof most members of this forum belong to one of the above groups. I'll respond to Fetzer's reply to me on the Yahoo group when I find the time hopefully today but since Brazil is playing in the World Cup today perhaps only tomorrow. Len

It seems the professor is unable to understand something as simple as the time stamps on posts here and the Yahoo forum he is referring to. If he did he would have realized that not only did I start this thread hours before his reply to me on jfk-research but I started it minutes before posting there. I already commented on the "Wrath of Fetzer" on this forum*, he true to form seems determined to make my case for me. Seven (so far) other members joined me in stating they opposed a coup d'etat in the US, what a bunch of dupes! What would have preferred that they voted 'yes' or abstained? I assume (hope!) that the lone 'yes' vote was meant as a joke. If not I hope the person who so voted justifies their view. Was that you Jim? Jim - How many members were even aware that a video clip of your presentation was available? How many of them would have the free time and patience to let alone any interest in spending 56 minutes of their lives, plus the time to find the link and wait for it to load, watch and listen to you rave on! What difference would it make since you say the part in discussion weren't recorded? My sound card isn't working, I'll try and watch it at a friends house or internet café in a couple of days. * [ http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=7115&view=findpost&p=65819 – for those who missed it the post contains an interesting example of his delusion of grandur] This is of course the typical response of anyone who is portrayed poorly by the press didn't Nixon and Agnew complain about their press coverage? Baghdad Bob said that the Western media was lying about the Iraqi Army being defeated even as US soldiers were showering in one of Saddam's palaces in Baghdad. Typical Fetzer, blame it on the messenger. Jim - Are you saying you were misquoted? According to the article your were responding to a question about members of the "truth" movement taking over a TV station in order to spread the movements message NOT a question "about whether the military offered any hope of resolving the constitutional crisis we face". Perhaps you could tell us your version of what the question asked and your response were. I've never been to Baghdad but I know that one of Hussein's lawyers was killed yesterday, I only visited Rome two millennia after the fact but I know Caesar was stabbed to death; we don't have to witness events to know what happened that's what journalists and historians are for. Unless he was completely misquoted he was, as per the quote he was endorsing the idea of the military deposing Bush. Poor analogy for several reasons such as: 1) AFAIK none of the failed/aborted coups against Hitler were motivated by objections to his trampling on democracy and civil rights but because elements of the military understood that Germany would ultimately be defeated in a war with the Allies, we don't know if constitutional government would have replaced him. 2) As bad as the situation currently is in the US it is not (yet al least) comparable to that of Germany 1938* - 1945. 3) Germany's democratic tradition only stretched back to 1918 in the US to the end of the 18th century. Once the precedent of the military deposing a president who (at least nominally) was democratically elected it would be hard to "put back in the bottle". * The first reliable report of a possible coup against Hitler I have heard of was around the time of the appeasement in Munich. Again, not according to the article. Or I could say a perfect opportunity for Fetzer to deny saying what he really said. Obviously I had no way of knowing if a recording of the session existed or not so Fetzer's comments are absurd. As he pointed out I wasn't at the conference, if indeed he was completely misquoted as he seems to be alleging I had no way of knowing this, my comments were reasonable based upon his comments as reported in the article. I will contact the author of the article for his reaction, perhaps he has a recording of the session.

What part of, "...for years, I've been waiting for there to be a military coup to depose these traitors. There actually was one weekend, where I said to myself, my God, it's going to happen this weekend, and I'm going to wake up and they will have taken these guys off in chains", did you fail to comprehend Jack? Your lunatic friend called for a military coup and antendees at the "9/11 'Truth' Conference" cheering. The reporter makes no mention of anybody objecting. Now we know who the real "sheeple" are! "When someone is 180 degrees from what is stated, they have mental problems or an agenda." Or both. Despite Jack's poor grammar I couldn't agree more!! Len Correction, the article was from not the San Francisco Chronicle as I first indicated.