Gil Jesus

Michael Paine was another person who claimed to have seen the same "picture on the cover of Life" ( magazine ) "the first night of the assassination" and was asked to identify the location by police. He recognized it as a "small clapboard structure" being the apartment house on Neely St. Paine's ID of the Neely St. address is supported by Fritz's report noted above that prior to his interview of Oswald, "Mr. Paine told me about where Oswald lived on Neely St." and when he confronted Oswald about the address that "Oswald was very evasive about this location" when questioned about it. The point is that O'Leary and Paine both saw the pictures before they were officially found and it's clear that they had the photographs on Friday night. My guess is that they found them after Ruth Paine told them to stop searching. They were doing a "consent search", the consent given by Mrs. Paine, which means when Mrs. Paine said stop, they had to stop. The problem with a consent search is that they can go anywhere and take anything. With a search warrant, they have to tell a judge specifically what they're searching for and the warrant limits where they can search. For example, if they were looking for a stolen car, they couldn't look in Mrs. Paine's bedroom dresser drawer. But if they were looking for stolen car parts, they could search inside furniture. When Mrs. Paine saw them walking out of her house with HER belongings, she got pissed and put an end to the search. If they found these photos after she ended the search, technically, they would have obtained them illegally and it would make sense why they claimed they found them on Saturday, when they HAD the search warrant. Regardless of the reason, it's obvious that police lied about when they found the evidence and I'm confident a good lawyer would have been able to prove these photos were obtained illegally and have them disqualified as evidence at a trial.

In his report on the assassination, Captain Fritz reports that he questioned Oswald on Saturday November 23rd at 12:35 pm about where he ( Oswald ) "was living when the picture was made of him holding the rifle...." ( Report, pg. 607 ) But according to the FBI, the officers who conducted the search of the Paine residence on Saturday didn't find the photograph until 3:20pm. In fact, Detective Stovall, who was involved in the search, testified that the police did not arrive at the Paine residence until 1:30 or 2:00 pm. So my question is this: How did Capt. Fritz know about the existance of a photograph showing Oswald holding a rifle "which looked to be the same rifle we had recovered", almost three hours before the photograph was found by his detectives ?

I got that earlier. I also got that Armstrong's list says that there was no Klein's ad in the May 1963 edition of American Rifleman. No offense, but when I have conflicting evidence, I must see the evidence for myself. I've ordered the magazines, they're on their way and I'm not going to be satisfied until I see it for myself.

So it seems then that they never did run out of 36" rifles. I've learned not to trust totally what Armstrong says so I'll wait until I see the ads for myself. I'm not afraid of being wrong, that's part of research. You throw sh*t against the wall. Sometimes it sticks, sometimes it doesn't. My measuring stick was Guns Magazine. Klein's didn't advertise the 40" rifle in Guns until August. That's what I went by. In hindsight, I should have posted it as a question. Now I have to wait until I get the magazines for the answer.

The 6-part documentary. History may be revised even as it is being written. https://archive.org/details/EvidenceOfRevision_201610

Steve, I carried my Dad's old snub nose for several years, using it when I had to go to court to testify. If you look at the CE 144 holster, you'll see that the loop for the belt is at the very top and does not hang down. This should put the rotating cylinder even with his belt and the handle of the revolver up so high that it hits his elbow. That's what it used to do to me, hit my elbow and it was annoying. But the holster in the BY photo looks like it hangs well below the belt, like a western holster. The holster just doesn't look right to me. The revolver's chamber is well below his belt when ( if it werethe CE 144 holster ) it should be even with his belt. And to your point about it looking like the bottom is open and the gun barrel is protruding, yes back in those days they used to make some open holsters. I remember as a kid seeing police officers wearing them. I'm not suggesting the photographs are faked, I'm suggesting that the weapons used in the making of these photographs are NOT the weapons the Commission claimed Oswald purchased. From the different sling mounts on the rifle to the western-style holster that looks like its holding a 6 inch revolver, I would consider the possibility that he borrowed these weapons from someone just for this photo op.

You might be right about that. It certainly would explain why they could change the American Rifleman ads month to month and why they didn't change the ads in Guns Magazine. I noticed that the ad Mr. Murr posted from the April A-R was the exact same ad that appeared in the August edition of Guns, with the exception of the prices. The prices in the August Guns were a little cheaper. So I'm curious to see what the ads offered in the A-R May and June editions especially.

LOL, you know, I never thought of that. Maybe he was into leather.

As a truth seeker, I need to resolve this in my own mind, so I've ordered the April, May and June 1963 editions of American Rifleman. I want to see for myself if the Klein's ad for April has the 40" rifle and if they continued advertising it in May and June or if the April ad was an error. I should have the mags in 7-10 days and I'll post what I find out. I remain puzzled why they would advertise the 36" Troop Special in one magazine five months after they started advertising the 40" Short Rifle in another. They're not even the same rifle. But I'm going to look into this, for sure.

Bank stamps were used on postal money orders in those days as is evidenced by the referral to same ( “bank stamps are not regarded as endorsements” ) on the back of the money order. The single stamp on the back was identified in testimony as the stamp of Klein’s. Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein’s Sporting Goods…..And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank. I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please. Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading “Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago,” followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by “Klein’s Sporting Goods, Inc.” Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company’s endorsement on that money order? Mr. WALDMAN. It’s identical to our endorsement. ( 7 H 367 ) The stamp wasn’t an endorsement from a bank. It was the endorsement stamp of Klein’s Sporting Goods transferring the funds into its bank account. The money order was never paid by any financial institution. Had the money order been processed by the First National Bank of Chicago, the bank would have put its DATED stamp on it. Financial institutions stamp checks and money orders in order to ensure that each institution pays only once on each item. Without the stamp, there’s no proof that the money was actually paid by the bank and credited to the customer’s account. The stamps also assist law enforcement in tracking finances in criminal cases. This money order should have had on it the DATED stamps of all financial institutions that handled the document. The proof of that is in how Oswald’s paychecks were handled. The fact that it doesn’t is proof that it never passed through the Federal Reserve System.　 Postal Money Orders received by the First National Bank of Chicago, were then sent to the Federal Reserve Bank, also in Chicago. The First National Bank did NOT microfilm money orders. To confound the tracking of the money order, the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago kept records of money orders for only six months, which means that it too had no record of this particular money order. At the time the money order would have been processed, 75% of money orders were being sent to Washington, D.C. and the other 25 % were being sent to Kansas City, Missouri. Lester Gohr of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago provided the FBI with the addresses of both locations. ( CD 7, pg. 193 ) In fact, according to the US Postal Guide of 1925, banks were REQUIRED to put their stamps on the backs of money orders deposited in their institutions in order to get paid. The money order with a stamp for Klein’s Sporting Goods for deposit into its account into the First National Bank of Chicago. No evidence that it was received by the First National Bank of Chicago.No evidence that it was received by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.No evidence that it was received by the postal money order clearing houses in either Kansas City or Washington, D.C. And yet, this “magic money order” is able to find its way through the Federal Reserve System WITHOUT ANY PROOF IT WAS PAID by any of the financial institutions which handled it. This is truly amazing.

That's all well and good but the Depository rifle wasn't purchased in March and it wasn't purchased by Oswald. The phony money order proved that and the phony Klein's deposit documentation proved that as well.

The Commission said that the photos were taken on March 31st. They based that on the testimony of Marina Oswald, who told them that she took the photos on a Sunday about two weeks before the Walker shooting. March 31st was mostly a cloudy day, but that doesn't mean the sun couldn't have poked through a few times. One of the problems I have with the BYPs is if you look at the holster in CE 133-A, you'll see the sunlight reflecting off the front of it. As one who has worn both, I can see that that's a holster for a 5 or 6 inch barrel hanging below his belt. The holster for a 2" snub nose is attached to the belt at the top and doesn't hang below it. The holster in the photo is not the same holster recovered from his room.

Yes I do have him on ignore and now you know why.

One of the magazines Klein's had a monthly advertisement in was Guns Magazine. In examining its ads for 1963, we find that Klein's continued to offer the 36" rifle for sale through July, 1963. The Klein's ad appears on page 13 of that July issue. In fact,Klein's didn't offer the 40" rifle for sale until August, 1963, as evident by its first advertising of the weapon. You might recognize the catalog number for the 40" rifle is the same as the catalog number for the 36" rifle. This may have been an error because Klein's did not advertise in the September 1963 issue of Guns. When the ad reappeared in October, 1963, the only difference was the catalog number, C20-T750 had become C20-750. The "T" had been dropped. The Guns Magazine ads are a key to when Klein's switched over to the 40" rifle. There's no evidence that Klein's advertised or sold the 40" rifle before this ad came out. No one has ever come forward with evidence that they purchased a 36" rifle from Klein's between March and August 1963 and received a 40" rifle in its place. No evidence exists proving that Klein's substituted 40" rifles for customers who ordered 36" rifles. The implication of this evidence is staggering. When added to the fake shipping papers, the phony money order, the phony deposit and the destroyed part 3 of the post office box application, we see that the 40" Depository rifle could not have been ordered before August, 1963, when it was first available. It also could not have been ordered on or after October 1963, because the catalog number had been changed. So the evidence shows that the 40" Depository rifle with the 36" catalog number was ordered between August and October, 1963. The timeline shows that Oswald was living in New Orleans at the time the 40" rifle became available for sale. It was at this time that he was using the ficticious "Hidell" name on flyers he was passing out. It was also the same time he had been trying to infiltrate the DRE in New Orleans. The same time he was arrested and those reports went into the files of the 112th Military Intelligence Group in San Antonio, the same group who would have provided extra security for JFK in Dallas. So many coincidences. BTW, someone other than Oswald ordered that rifle.

To your point, Jim, Commission Exhibit 2562: On page 250 of his book, Kennedy and Lincoln, Lattimer admitted that he and his sons "conducted a series of experiments using a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano carbine, Model 19/38, serial number C2766" : I don't get posts from Lone Nutters. Experience with these people has shown me that they have nothing to offer but speculation, opinion, comments and insults. Von Pein refers you to his blog of "arguments". You rarely, if ever, see them post evidence. So as far as I'm concerned, they're a total waste of my time. I can be convinced of anything, just show me the evidence. But if it's not in the Warren Report, they're unable to respond with evidence. Oh, they'll cite Posner, Bugliosi and Myers. Or anybody else whose done the legwork for their side. But don't expect them to do any research. They don't know the testimony or the exhibits or the documents. You won't find them searching through FBI files or Dallas Police files or Oswald's 201 CIA files. Would they like us to believe that Klein's advertised the 36" rifle for five months ( March-August, '63 ) while it shipped 40" rifles in its place ? Where's the evidence of that ? Some years ago, I asked these Warren Commission supporters to show me one person, other than Oswald, who ordered a 36" rifle from Klein's between March and August 1963 and received a 40" rifle in its place. They could not do so. I've posted in this thread evidence that Klein's did not offer the 40" rifle for sale until August, 1963. If they have evidence to the contrary, let them show it to the world.

I see so your speculation ( "the possibility" ) would suffice but my cold hard evidence would not. I hate to burst your bubble, but speculation does not trump evidence. Evidence trumps evidence. You speculate that some kind of "test rifles" were sent to Klein's and there's no evidence in the record that that's so. You're grasping for straws, mate. Let's look at the "other evidence linking him to the rifle": The shipping papers that did not include the serial number of the rifle or the number of the carton that contained it. The list of rifles that was undated. ( Waldman Exhibit 3 ) The money order that was never paid. ( CE 788 ) The Klein's "Bank Deposit" that was made on Feb 15th and the monthly statement of 3/13/63 ( Waldman Exhibit 10 ) What about the fact that more than one rifle had the same serial number ? ( CE 2562 ) The money order that was purchased and the envelope that was postmarked while Oswald was at work. ( CE 1855 ) The FBI report that says that "A.Hidell" was not on part 3 of the PO box application. ( CE 2585 ) Why did they identify Oswald's handwriting from copies and not original documents ? https://4n6.com/handwriting-and-forgery-examination/ The rifle ordered and appears in the backyard photographs has bottom sling mounts but the Depository rifle has side sling mounts. ( CE 133-A ) Then we have the concrete word of Marina Oswald, who told the FBI the rifle was her husband's but admitted to the Warren Commission that she lied several times to the FBI. You mean all of that evidence ? Maybe you should take a look at that evidence again: https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle/

Do you have any evidence that this was the case ?

One of the magazines Klein's ran ads in every month in 1963 was Guns Magazine. Their magazines are on line and the Klein's ads in those editions indicate that Klein's did not start advertising the 40" rifle until August, 1963. This casts doubts on the LNers' speculation that Klein's ran out of 36" rifles in March and simply substituted 40" rifles in their place. These are the monthly editions for 1963 from April to August and the corresponding pages of the Klein's ads: April, 1963, pg. 15 https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0463.pdf May 1963, pg. 67 https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0563.pdf June 1963, pg. 11 https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0663.pdf July 1963, pg. 13 https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0763.pdf ------------Klein's starts advertising the 40" rifle----------- August 1963, pg. 15 https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0863.pdf This evidence indicates that the Depository 40" rifle was not available for sale until August, 1963.

I'm willing to bet his "source" was in the post office.

Tom, check this out: When Klein's asked the FBI to return the microfilm with the C2766 info on it, the FBI sent them a COPY and kept the original: Opportunity for a forgery ?

"A.J. Hidell" with a Florida address of 6404 Pelican Drive South, St. Petersburg, orders an Enfield "sporter" 30.06 with a scope from a Klein's magazine ad. Pays with a money order. Sound familiar ? https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60399#relPageId=90 The claim was there was a newsman who was "testing" Klein's for some reason or another. $33.28 in 1965 in today's dollars is $ 313.02. That's a lot of money to risk losing on a prank. https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1965?amount=33.28

So was the rifle's original serial number 2766 and someone stamped a "C" prefix on it so it couldn't be traced ? Two pictures of the alleged rifle. The top one was taken by Michael O'Neill of Life magazine at the National Archives, November 1983 to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the assassination. The bottom one is the FBI's photo. Note the different script, especially on the "C" : While the Life photo shows a C with a rounded bottom, the Warren Commission C has a serif on the bottom which somewhat resembles a G. Are we looking at C2766 and 2766 with a "C" added ? Was the rifle sold by Century Arms to Alden's and not Crescent Firearms to Klein's ? And if so, who purchased "2766" from Alden's ? And when ? Were the Klein's records faked ( as I have suspected ) after the assassination ? Klein's ( and Seaport Traders ) were under Federal investigation. How far would they go to "cooperate" with the FBI ? Stay tuned, folks. My associates and I will get to the bottom of this. :-)

Sorry Tom. I didn't want to go too far with it because I knew you were working on the subject of the FBI's tracking of the rifle and I didn't want to steal your thunder. So I'll leave it where it is and let you post your stuff when you get a chance. PS: It sounds like they couldn't find the sales documents from Crescent to Klein's for the serial number and the closest they could find was N2766 and C2746. Or why would they mention them ? LNers jump in at any time to explain your documents.

So if I understand you correctly ( and please correct me if I don't ) you're saying that these 100 rifles were part of that shipment of 700 rifles. But Louis Feldsott told the FBI that the rifles were packed 10 to a carton by his reps in Italy. ( FBI File 62-109060, Sec 19, pg. 113 ) These 700 rifles were shipped in 25 cartons, some had 25 rifles, some had 50. So this has me confused. Did Feldsott lie ? I think you should look at this first page of CD 881, where in the first paragraph, the FBI says its providing documents for rifles C2766 AND 2766: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277#relPageId=2

When it found out that some rifles had the same serial number, sans the letter prefix, the Warren Commission asked the FBI to track the rifle with the serial number 2766. Commission Document 881 contains a list of the 700 rifle shipment that rifle # 2766 was a part of. The rifles were shipped in 25 cartons, some cartons contained 50 rifles, others 25. All of the serial numbers are listed individually. At the top of the last page of that list, page 67, is written "Italian Carbine, 46" ". ( The document is upside-down, so you'll have to rotate it a couple of times to see it ) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277#relPageId=70 So here you have a different sized rifle with the same core serial number.