Michael Hogan
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Carolyn Barta, The Dallas Morning News January 27, 2004:
Mr. Kennedy's trip actually was designed to repair divisions in the Texas Democratic Party between factions led by conservative Gov. John Connally and liberal U.S. Sen. Ralph Yarborough. Most Texans were Democrats, but the party was split between conservatives and liberal-loyalists.Since the Dallas luncheon was sponsored by conservative business leaders – the Dallas Citizens Council – liberal-loyalists were left out of the planning. According to Darwin Payne, Dallas historian and former journalist and professor, Barefoot Sanders (who would become a federal judge) went to the powers-that-be and demanded lunch tickets for Democratic Party loyalists.The visit also was designed to boost JFK in Texas. A Houston Chronicle poll the day of the assassination showed Republican Barry Goldwater leading in Texas a year before the election. And LBJ wanted to make sure he was picked again as vice president by building support for the ticket in Texas.It was a multifaceted political plot that quickly became unimportant after the assassination.http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2003/j...arta.1133c.html
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Ashton,
If you have not already done so, I am sure you would enjoy reading John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee. (Subtitle: How the CIA framed Oswald)
Armstrong's well documented book contains nearly 1000 pages and covers much more than just the two Oswalds. Almost the entire book is written in timeline form, and that's the main reason I think you might find it compelling reading.
Mike Hogan
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From The Man Who Knew Too Much by Dick Russell (Carroll & Graf Publishers1992)
THE CHINA CARD (Page 352)
"As I studied further about this tangled era, I came to consider the drama glossed over by most historians of the Cuban Missile Crisis. This was the deep rift between Soviet and Chinese Communism that surfaced after Kruschev and Kennedy reached their historic agreement. The gap had been widening for a couple of years, but with the Cuban Missile Crisis, the comrades came to a distinct parting. Peking accused the Soviets of "adventurism" in introducting the missiles into Cuba in the first place, and viewed the accord with the Americans as a sign of weakness. 'The capitulation of the Soviet leaders has inflated the aggressiveness and arrogance of the imperialists,' and official Chinese statement read in 1963.At the same time, Mao Tse-tung's China backed Castro to the hilt, praising his 'fearless' leadership. 'The 650 million Chinese people will always stand by the 7 million fraternal Cuban people in weal or woe, through thick and thin to fight to the end against our common enemy US imperialism,' an editorial in the People's Daily concluded.Kruschev was so concerned that Castro might abandon their own alliance in favor of Peking that he felt compelled to write the Cuban premier a rambling letter on January 31, 1963. Not made public until early in 1992 in Havana, it finds the Soviet leader complaining about 'representative of some Socialist states' who were 'distorting' and 'criticizing' his actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He went so far as to refer to Chinese verbal attacks on the United States as 'a paper tiger, dung.'The last straw for the Chinese was the Limited Test Ban Treaty on nuclear weapoons between Kennedy and Kruschev. Through much of July 1963 in Moscow, the US-Soviet treaty negotiations and Chinese-Soviet talks to resolve their ideological differences had been going on simultaneously. On July 31, 1963, Mao's government issued a statement denouncing the treaty as a 'dirty fraud' in which the Soviets had 'sold out' the interests of 'peace-loving peoples.' Their own discussions with the Soviets were postponed indefinitely, and overt polemics erupted on both sides.The Sino-Soviet split represented a very real danger in what otherwise then seemed a dawning of detente among the superpowers. Shortly before the assassination, there had reportedly even been discussion within Kennedy administration circles of bombing out the Chinese nuclear facility at Lon Nol. The Soviets were said to be privately urging the United States to go ahead. Interestingly, some of the same Joint Chiefs of Staff who had advocated attacking the Soviet missile sites in Cuba now opposed any hit on China. They were afraid such a move would merely strengthen the Soviets' hand, especially among Third World countries in Asia, Africa, and Latin America, where both the Chinese and the Soviets were seeking inroads."(Emphasis added) -
Founded in January, 2001 by Ted Turner and former U.S. Senator Sam Nunn, the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) was founded to "to strengthen global security by reducing the risk of use and preventing the spread of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons."
From their website:
China's Missile Imports and Assistance From Abroad
http://www.nti.org/db/china/mimport.htm
China's Missile Imports and Assistance from Israel:
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Mr. Russell,
In your landmark book, you write that "Popkin first heard about him (Nagell) via a letter Nagell wrote that there was something to his theory about an Oswald look-alike used by the conspirators to spread confusion."
Of course in 1966 Popkin wrote The Second Oswald.
My question is: Do you have any thoughts or opinions on John Armstrong's research?
I have always considered The Man Who Knew Too Much to be a classic. Well written and well researched, your efforts have added a lot to understanding the mystery of the murder of John Kennedy. It was/is an amazing book.
Mike Hogan
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Is there anyone participating in this thread that has read the sixth edition of Piper's Final Judgement?
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Rex Bradford asked:
An informal survey: would anybody be interested in printed paperback book versions of things like the Lopez Report, the HSCA Report and its appendix volumes, Church Committee Reports, or other JFK assassination govt. reports - perhaps even the 26 volumes? The technology is all there for these to be reprinted and sold at reasonable costs.Heck no Rex. You see, when I need to access the above information, I go to this website called History Matters. All of the mentioned resources are there, free and easily accessible. It is my understanding that one guy spent a lot of time scanning the documents, a very unselfish act. The search function makes finding a particular excerpt easy. And the the Mary Ferrell Foundation's website has quickly become an equally valuable resource. The video clips are awesome.
There was a time when the 26 volumes of the Warren Commission and the entire HSCA report were valuable tools for the researcher. Now those GPO productions have been relegated to collector's items sold on eBay or tomes collecting dust on people's bookshelves. In fact, it is the internet that has hastened their demise as actual research tools. The sum effects of the internet information revolution on history are enormous, but inestimable in my opinion.
Rex, I would like to echo John Simkin's sentiments in welcoming you to this forum. The value of your efforts towards making valuable information accessible online cannot be overstated. I truly appreciate what you have done and are doing. And in addition, from your relatively few posts here, I've already learned a lot.
Your contributions to history and further understanding the events surrounding the murder of President Kennedy assure you a place in the researcher's Hall of Fame.
Thanks a lot Rex. Best wishes.
Mike Hogan
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Ashton Gray wrote:
"Dealey plaza is a mockery of a Greek amphitheatre in which they did to him exactly what he had threatened to do to them, and the Greek theatre setting was a visual pun to ridicule his hubris."In another thread I quoted an excerpt from Gaeton Fonzi's book The Last Investigation. Fonzi describes his conversation in 1975 with Vincent Salandria:
"I'm afraid we were mislead," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics, myself included, were mislead very early. I see that now. We spent too much time microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy.Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one--not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official--no one can do anything about it.'(Emphasis added) It was a message to the people that their Government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message. Consider what has happened since the Kennedy assassination. People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously.The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by promoting social upheaval at home and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but to repression. I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are now dealing with an international conspiracy. We must face the fact -- and not waste any more time microanalyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you. They'll keep you very, very busy and eventually, they'll wear you down." -
Late in 1975, Gaeton Fonzi was beginning his work as a Government investigator on the Kennedy assassination. In his book The Last Investigation Fonzi details a conversation he had with Vince Salandria, already a legend among the growing circle of Warren Commission critics.
"I'm afraid we were mislead," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics, myself included, were mislead very early. I see that now. We spent too much time microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy............The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by promoting social upheaval at home and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but to repression. I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are now dealing with an international conspiracy. We must face the fact -- and not waste any more time microanalyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you. They'll keep you very, very busy and eventually, they'll wear you down."Salandria's prophetic words of thirty years ago have been proven true time and time again. Salandria, Lane, Meagher, Thompson, Weisberg, and others proved forty years ago that there WAS a conspiracy and the Warren Commission conducted a fraudulent investigation. Unfortunately, the microanalyzation that Salandria referred to still persists today.
Why do members feel it necessary to debate the single bullet theory with the likes of Von Pein and Slattery and others that come and go? What can possibly be gained? Who really cares what they think? Granted their smugness against all things conspiratorial combined with their inabilty or unwillingness to address so many salient issues can be irritating. But, in my opinion, engaging in debate with such people is such an exercise in futility. Their opinions mean nothing in the scheme of things. Their arguments convince no one.
That there was a conspiracy in the murder of President Kennedy was demonstrated forty years ago. While the exact nature of who, how, and why remains elusive, speculative and an enduring mystery of our time, debating details with those that believe the Warren Commission was a truthful, historical document is nothing more than a waste of time, and a rehash of arguments that were settled long, long ago for those that bothered to do the reading.
Responding to taunts, rudeness and inanities from those that profess to believe the official Government version(s), to the exclusion of all other known facts is a mistake, in my opinion.
Mike Hogan
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I was in college when I heard Pete Seger sing John Henry. It was a powerful version, I remembered it instantly when Jim mentioned it.
Another powerful song I heard then by Pete Seger was Waist Deep in the Big Muddy. It was an allegorical referral to war.....Vietnam.
And Jim, may I add my thanks to all the great photos you post. They are captivating.
Mike Hogan
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Jack White wrote:
"I look at and evaluate all information...whether or not I agree with all opinions expressed. Information and facts and photos exist SEPARATELY from opinions expressed."When I first joined this Forum there was great controversy surrounding Michael Collins Piper and I read all the threads. Some of the views expressed opened my eyes as to how quick some people are to judge others and their motives.
Piper's actual research into the murder of President Kennedy as written in Final Judgement was largely ignored while peripheral issues like his views on the Holocaust, his appearance on "Nazi" websites, his association with others became the focus of many threads.
Recent forum discussions on Watergate prompted me to go to my library and look for books that dealt with that subject. Piper had sent me the 6th edition. He dealt with Watergate in a chapter called Appendix Seven.
Piper borrowed heavily on the writings of Carl Oglesby and Deborah Davis (Katharine the Great). He had many quotes from Haldeman's The Ends of Power. He sourced and quoted almost all of Nixon's staff. He quoted part of Walter Cronkite's interview with Robert Vesco on 60 minutes and made his case for Vesco's Permindex connection.
Here are some of his other quoted sources:
Leslie Cockburn on CSpan
Loftus and Aarons, The Secret War Against the Jews (St. Martin's Press, 1994)
Robert Hutchinson, Vesco (Praeger, 1974)
Jim Hougan, Spooks (Morrow & Co. 1978)
Webster Tarpley, George Bush, the Unauthorized Biography (1992)
There are many more.
Of course, anyone reading this knows Piper suspected an Israeli/Mossad connection to Watergate.
My post makes no judgement on that. My point is that the sources employed by Piper were interesting in and of themselves, and showed a side to Watergate that generally has not been discussed on this Forum to my knowledge.
Whether on not someone agrees with Piper's other views (understood or misundersood), that doesn't mean that his book cannot contain good information. Its obvious that Piper spent a lot of time researching the murder of John Kennedy. His book Final Judgement, in its 6th edition contains much of value.
Much of the criticism of Final Judgement (and not coincidentally, John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee) come from people that have not read the books in their entirety(if at all). Instead they base their criticisms exclusively from what they find on the internet. If that's what they want to do, of course that's their right.
But the most accurate method to judge an author's research, in my opinion, is to read the book, assiduously check the sources, learn some things if you can, and discard the rest. Piper's chapter on Watergate was sound.
Mike Hogan
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John Dean discusses his book Conservatives Without Conscience and Leonard Colodny's book Silent Coup.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_jo...rvatives_ha.htm
In this July 10, 2006 op/ed piece Dean also discusses Watergate and Colson, Liddy, and Hunt.
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American Spy: My Secret History in the CIA, Watergate and Beyond
E. Howard Hunt, Greg Aunapu
ISBN: 0-471-78982-8
Hardcover
288 pages
January 2007
US $25.95 Add to Cart
This price is valid for United States. Change location to view local pricing and availability.
Description
1. Hunt will discuss his role in the break-in of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist s office in 1971, and other break-ins conducted by the White House.
2. Re Watergate, the book gives the fullest picture of Hunt's motives, why he was willing to participate, even though he thought the break in was a mistake, and the ramifications of his actions.
3. At the time of Watergate, Hunt had an office in the White House, including a safe which contained a gun and forged documents linking the Kennedy Administration to the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
4. After the Watergate burglary, Hunt enlisted his daughter Kevan to help him dispose of incriminating evidence, including suitcases full of documents which were dumped in a lake, and the typewriter which was used to create the forged documents.
5. Hunt will explain why his wife Dorothy, once a Treasury agent, was carrying over $10,000 in cash at the time of her death in December 1972. He also debunks various widespread conspiracy theories about the money.
6. He will debunk theories about his role in the events following the shooting of George Wallace in 1972.
7. He will offer startling revelations dating back to his involvement in the CIA coup in Guatemala in 1954, his work with CIA officials such as Allen Dulles and Richard Helms, his friendship with William F. Buckley Jr., whom Hunt brought into the Agency, as well as his career as a World War II veteran who fought in China, and longtime CA operative.
8. Hunt shows CIA s influence on modern politics, the amazing lengths the Agency went to to try to control the media and people's perception of the US, capitalism and communism through propaganda.
9. Hunt debunks and/or defends himself against widespread conspiracies that have arisen in the years after Watergate, that: he participated in the JFK assassination; that he wrote the book by George Wallace's assassin; that his wife Dorothy was investing $1 million of Watergate money with Robert Vesco; that there was a secret alternative motive to break into the DNC.
10. Finally, Hunt will examine the post 9/11 CIA and offer the agency new ways to take on the fight against terror, many of these based on lessons from his own lifetime as a spy. He will focus on domestic spying and revamping the mindset of CIA.
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/p...0471789828.html
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J. Raymond Carroll writes:
"Mr. Gray seems confident that he knows the road to Hades...."
And, as a three hour afterthought, Carroll adds this parting shot to his post:
"We have already established that it is Ashton Gray, alone among the two of us, who has ever been down the road to Hades."
Seems like it is Carroll, and Carroll alone that is aware that there is a "road" leading to Hades.
When a person has to wait almost 3 hours to add such a petty final statement to their post.......It just confirms what John and Dawn have been saying, and many others have been thinking.
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Ashton Gray writes:
Sunday, 18 June 1972
The Washington Post breaks its first story on the Watergate break-in, all planned and timed to be released on Sunday, the biggest newspaper circulation day. Despite Woodward having called Hunt the morning before to tell Hunt that the trap had been set, and despite other news sources naming Hunt, there is no mention of E. Howard Hunt in their Sunday lead story. There is, though, mention of James McCord's background with CIA. And most importantly for what is to come, there is mention of the burglars having "almost $2,300 in cash, most of it in $100 bills with the serial numbers in sequence." [NOTE: The Washington Post will incrementally build the CIA links, then will be the propaganda mouthpiece to perfect the CIA bait-and-switch.]
Here's that article in the Washington Post by Alfred E. Lewis
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/natio...es/061872-1.htm
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Emilio Estevez has just finished shooting Bobby, set for release November 22, 2006
"Bobbyrevisits the night Robert F Kennedy was gunned down at the Ambassador Hotel in 1968. The story is about how the lives of those at the hotel that evening intersected. The movie takes place against the backdrop of the cultural issues gripping the country at the time, including racism, sexual inequality and class differences."Actors include Emilio Estevez, Lawrence Fishburne, Anthony Hopkins, Sharon Stone, Harry Belafonte, Lindsay Lohan, Martin Sheen, Christian Slater, Freddy Rodriguez, and Nick Cannon.
Scenes were shot at the Ambassador Hotel (including the pantry) before it was demolished.
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Hello Larry,
Is everything still on schedule? I can't remember the last time I so eagerly looked forward to publication of a book. Thanks and best wishes.
Mike Hogan
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In his thorough, extended article in The Dealey Plaza Echo (thanks Robert Howard), Mark Bridger writes about the Esquire article by John Berendt:
The article also gave insight into the Philadelphia investigation of Vaganov by Salandria, Fonzi, Josiah Thompson (who interviewed many of the Dallas witnesses) and the pseudonymous 'James Henderson' and how Esquire felt the need to write their article, guaranteeing that Vaganov's side of the story would be told.This was/is an outstanding thread. Thanks to Bill Kelly, Lee Forman, Ed O'Hagan, James Richards, and Robert Howard.
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I've been very impressed with the way Owen handles himself in these threads. His writing skills and research methodologies are very sound, in my opinion.
Owen shows maturity and a refreshing open-mindedness that makes references to his relative youth meaningless.
Keep up the good work, Owen.
Mike Hogan
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From Ultimate Sacrifice by Lamar Waldron & Thom Hartmann:
We were shocked when Dave Powers, head of the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston and a close aide to JFK, vividly described seeing the shots from the 'grassy knoll.' Powers said he and fellow JFK aide Kenneth O'Donnell clearly saw the shots, since they were in the limo right behind JFK. Powers said they felt they were 'riding into an ambush'--explaining for the first time why the driver of JFK's limo slowed after the first shot. Powers also described how he was pressured to change his story for the Warren Commission. We quickly found confirmation of Powers' account of the shots in the autobiography of former House Speaker Tip O'Neil (and later from the testimony of two Secret Service agents in the motorcade with Powers and O'Donnell.
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"Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first, it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer 1788-1860
Ashton,
You did a fantastic job on this thread. Your efforts did not go unnoticed by John Simkin and Robert Charles-Dunne. That says a lot. Thanks for joining this Forum and giving us the benefit of your research and critical thinking on Watergate. I look forward to more.
Mike Hogan
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John,
Are you at liberty to divulge why it is becoming increasingly unlikely that Bradley Ayers' book will be published? Is that based upon information from Sander Hicks? Thanks.
Mike Hogan
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Peter,
I thought both of your posts were heartfelt, eloquent and pretty much right on the money. Thanks.
Mike Hogan
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You are such a crybaby. Go back to my original post #80. I quoted your remarks about Baldwin and Caddy verbatim. In your response, you mentioned nothing about them, just an attack on me. Hence my statement that you were off topic. Then you have the temerity to whine that I am misquoting you and suggest that I am off topic.
Like a little kid in the schoolyard, you always insist in getting in the last word. You do it with everyone, not just me. I know Brendan Slattery rubs a lot of people the wrong way (myself included), but personally I find your brand of selective responses much more offensive. At least Slattery addresses the issues when confronted.
You, on the other hand, just try to twist things around to suit yourself. Whatever you can't spin, you ignore. I'm sure everyone on this Forum is glad that Mr. Baldwin (and hopefully Mr. Caddy) is still participating. And yes, they are intelligent men. I'm sure they can see right through your weak, unconvincing attempt to explain how you didn't insult them.
At least Ashton Gray was man enough to apologize.
I never liked bullies. Especially bullies with no game.
See ya around.
Who Instigated the Dallas Trip, and When?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Michael Hogan
According to Vince Palamara:
Jerry Behn was WITH JFK, LBJ ,and CONNALLY in El Paso on 6/5/63 (as was the SX100 limo and many other agents)! Also:
LBJ's April 1963 announcment of the trip which was carried in the newspapers;
9/26/63: official White House announcement (also in the newspapers);
10/4/63: Connally visits JFK in Oval Office- as if the SS wouldn't know about this (they installed and monitored the taping system which was implemented and in full operation during JFK's administration, as well- SAIC of PRS Robert I. Bouck, who I spoke with, installed and monitored the tapes from the EOB);
11/1/63: Connally press conference;
11/4/63: ASAIC Boring notifies Lawson of the Dallas assignment (and the rest is history...)
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...Issue/saic.html