Ashton Gray

True. BUT... *PLONK* No, I didn't mean "true" to that sentence, Ashton. I meant "true" the sentence prior to that, which I highlight here in red: You could put the nick in the tie anywhere you wished; back, front or on either side, simply by altering the place you started tying the tie. Ashton has shown the nick in the front of the tie because it suits his purpose to do so. You can see that to be the case in everything I write. I never thought you did anything to suit your purpose. I regret that I didn't see that my reply was ambiguous before posting it. Someone brought this post to my attention so I now don't have you on "Ignore." As for this, that you did choose to say "true" to: Well, it's certainly "true" that someone who was either unspeakably irresponsible or who had a disinformation agenda could "put the nick in the tie anywhere" they wished, but in my re-creation, I put it where TWO other photos of the tie with the knot tied indicate that the nick was located on the knot. In doing so, I put the re-creation onto a photo that has the tie knot in situ—which is unprecedented in 53 years of analysis—and I mapped it more accurately than anyone ever has done in 53 years. So, no, the statement you quoted that's in red above isn't "true" in any relevant sense whatsoever. The statement is merely a part of a veritable blizzard of posts attempting to discredit the re-creation I painstakingly did, but the re-creation is dead-on accurate in alignment with all other existing visual evidence of the nick in the tie. Ashton

True. BUT... *PLONK*

*PLONK*

I recommend that you tie a four-in-hand knot, then slip it off without untying it and look at the back of it. (Sigh). There is no "Ashton's theory." I answered a question about what possibly could have caused such a wound as was observed in JFK's throat by several medical personnel. What I have stated unequivocally is that no bullet fired from the front made the hole in JFK's throat, and I stand by it. Ashton

Not if someone accidentally nicked it with a sharp instrument that then punctured the shirt and throat beneath the tie knot, in which case the nick would be pretty much exactly where it appears. Of course the hole in the throat conveniently was in the most likely place for a tracheotomy, therefore the hole in the throat was sliced through in mere minutes after arrival, compromising effective forensic analysis. Darn shame, that. Ashton

Yes, it is. It's right here: Ashton

It doesn't have to be there. I already addressed that specifically in my post. The pendulum swings... Ashton

You're welcome. I'm always happy to make any contribution I can to aid in impartial analysis. I know. Don't blame you. And I did "Photoshop" the image, but only in the sense of using its enhancement tools—which are the best I know of available to the public. I emphatically did not "Photoshop" it in the sense of altering the fundamental information available in the image. I only attempted to bring out details that were lost in the muddy, low-contrast exposure of the original. As for what caused any of it: I don't have a dawg in the fight. I have nothing whatsoever to benefit or lose from any responsible conclusion drawn from the evidence. It goes where it goes. This has brought up one interesting point, though. Well, it's interesting to me, at least, so I'm going to mention it: Of course we're all aware of the "lone nut" camp on the JFK assassination, but this is a controversial topic specifically because of all the evidence uncovered by many diligent and intelligent people pointing to a conspiracy to assassinate the President of the United States. IF (I have to keep making my "ifs" bigger and more prominent because some people seem to overlook them) there were such a conspiracy, and IF it involved the Central Intelligence Agency, I find it curious that there seems to be such rigid resistance to the idea that any medical personnel possibly could have been involved. At the time of the assassination, the CIA had been engaged for over a decade in some of the most heinous and repulsive human experiments in man's history, every bit of which had been masterminded and conducted by men with medical degrees, much of it in collusion with well known educational institutions, medical institutions, and medical organizations. The CIA also had been engaged in concocting various methods of surreptitiously assassinating world leaders. To me, the greatest surprise would be if it were proven that the CIA organized the assassination of JFK without some medical component in the planning, at least as insurance for a failure of the shooting. Any such insurance would have had to be at Parkland Hospital. With that, I'll try to answer any questions I can, but I'm afraid that I've contributed all I can to this topic, and other demands are dragging me away. I stand by my original premise: it is impossible that any bullet shot from the front penetrated the throat of John F. Kennedy. Ashton

I never disagreed with the "loose thread" observations, but the original photo had such poor exposure that it was difficult to tell with any clarity. That's why I set out to enhance it and see what it showed. I agree that there is probably more than one actual strand from the woof and warp of the fabric involved. I was using "thread" in the broad sense of "twisted filaments or fibers of any kind." Ashton

Yes. It has the tools, but it still was quite a challenge to get the pattern aligned. I did the best I could. That's why I opted to use the flat tie and map it to the photo of his tie exactly as it was tied when he was wearing it. Ashton

I've used the FBI post-assassination photo of JFK's shirt, and have applied basic image enhancement to it to bring out details. In doing so, I've concluded to my satisfaction that the slits/holes in the shirt are almost exactly the same size and shape, contrary to other conclusions. Here is the enhanced image, enlarged and cropped: A thread running upward from the hole on the anatomical left (image right) creates an illusion of a longer slit/hole, but it seems clear in the enhanced image that it is a thread, not a further slit. In this animated gif below, I have done the best I can to move the two sides of the shirt together in an APPROXIMATION of the way the two sides would be placed when worn with a tie. It is utterly impossible to "mold" the rigid photo of the fabric the way it would have fallen or bunched with a man lying in a trauma room, and I make no apologies for not trying, but I have marked the location of the holes/slits in the shirt for these purposes: I believe that even with the limitations of this photo, it proves beyond any reasonable doubt by any reasonably prudent person that some item made both holes in the shirt, and whatever that item was also made the hole in the throat. The location of the holes/slits in the shirt, and the hole in the throat, were directly behind the knot in the tie at the exact level where the nick in the tie is. Count the "stripes" on the shirt collar. Ashton

I have used this image from the National Archives, which I have rotated 90 degrees clockwise: I have done a painstaking job of "wrapping" it to the best of my ability on the knot of the tie in the large image taken on 22 November 1963 of JFK at Love Field in Dallas. Based on the pattern, I have wrapped it in the only available logical placement on the knot—unless the nick is around behind the visible knot on the anatomical left side (image's right side). I have made an animated gif of it so everyone can see how I aligned the pattern in my best good-faith attempt to show the location of the nick and the stain: Personally, I consider it impossible for a projectile of any description to have made that nick, and then also to have made the slits in the shirt and the hole in the throat—all of which are directly behind the tie. (I hope I don't need to also say that I consider it impossible going the other way: throat hole—>shirt slits—>tie nick. But I just did anyway.) I also consider it prima facie that the nick in the tie, and the slits in the shirt—another post to follow—were made by some item with sharp blade-like properties. Let the nick-picking begin. Ashton

I don't know. The visual evidence indicates that it was something sharp enough to slice through a single layer of the tie in a short line. The visual evidence indicates that the slice in the tie is not inconsistent with whatever sliced through the several layers of shirt underneath the tie. The visual evidence indicates that the slits in the shirt—allowing for the flexile nature of the fabric in the two sides of the shirt—are not inconsistent with the placement of the wound in the throat. The visual evidence therefore suggests strongly that the nick in the tie, the shirt slits, and the throat wound all were created by the same item, whatever it was. The forensic analysis of the shirt slits has eliminated a bullet as the cause, as documented in this thread. You say it was a bone fragment. I'm not convinced that it was. If it was, it is unfortunate for all of us that it coincidentally created a hole that was mistaken by a host of medical personnel as a bullet wound, then created neat little slits in the shirt. Ashton

Eggs Benedict?Or...[insert identity of substance here] Hint. Hint. Hint-Hint... Tom I thought perhaps maple syrup. (No, wait: maple syrup doesn't show up metallically in X-rays.) Tom: Please. Of course it could be blood. It also could be Hollandaise sauce, or some combination of— I know! "It's a dessert topping and a floor wax!" (Apologies to Chevy Chase.) That's my entire point: The President of the United States was murdered, and nobody bothered to find out what it was. But it goes further than they just didn't bother to find out: they emphatically didn't find out, and even "managed" somehow to confuse the issue with the incorrect evidence numbering, which you have pointed out—even though the stain is directly adjacent to a "nick" in the tie that no one ever explained or tested for "evidence of bullet metal," which you also have pointed out. So, no, I will not just assume that it is nothing but blood, and neither would any responsible forensic investigator. Assumes facts not in evidence. Ashton

I was, after all, only having a bit of fun, but a "HOLE in the outer layer" is merely a restatement of a NICK in the holy tie, and neither is a "hole through the tie." I believe that we all now are in agreement on this point. I sure hope so. No. Ashton

Yes, that's the nick, and the reason you don't recall a hole in the tie being reported is because no hole in the tie ever was reported. I feel we can all be grateful that Mr. Prudhomme finally has rectified that egregious oversight by explaining to us that a short nick to one layer of fabric and some unidentified stain is a "hole through it." Who'd have thought the case could be solved that easily? I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of it first. All right, everybody: back to the grassy knoll... Ashton

I've never found any such statement, and don't believe it will be found. I've personally asked two nurses who have trauma experience about use of a scalpel to remove clothing and they both looked at me like I was a candidate for a padded room. (Some in these forums would agree.) An entire industry exists for the creation of scissors and other implements specifically designed for rapid and safe removal of clothing from a trauma victim, and every trauma room is adequately equipped with just such implements. (Rip shears are commonly used these days, but I don't believe they were used in 1963. I have not researched that.) I think that the most likely reason that no point has been made of it is exactly because of the rigorous training of such personnel for just such situations, and of course they would have used the scissors designed specifically to remove fabric and "do no harm." I believe that it's just taken for granted. I see no reason whatsoever to assume or believe that even one of the doctors—never mind a nurse—would have taken a scalpel to a tight necktie that was right up against the man's throat. It would have been a nightmarishly reckless thing to do to anyone in any circumstances. I believe the entire "scalpel to remove clothing" question is a snipe hunt. You are exactly right about Carrico, and he was the first Parkland doctor to arrive in the trauma room. To this day I have no idea why this question is belabored so laboriously—except that the "front shot" scenario has taken on all the force and power of a religion, and it is heresy to challenge the believers. Carrico himself says that HE is the one who initially opened the shirt, and that he UNBUTTONED it enough to expose the throat and chest: SPECTER: What action, if any, was taken with respect to the removal of President Kennedy's clothing? DR. CARRICO: ...After *I* had opened his shirt and coat, I proceeded with the examination and the nurses removed his clothing as is the usual procedure. ...The nurses removed the clothing after we had initially unbuttoned enough to get a look at him, at his chest, and as the routine is set up, the nurses remove the clothing and we just don't take time to look at it. He then makes it clear, in an elementary English language sentence—which you already have referred to a number of times—that opening the shirt revealed the existence of the throat wound: DR. CARRICO: We opened his shirt and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third of the neck. Not one other human being in existence has ever unequivocally stated that there was any visible wound in the throat prior to that act. Bowron is the only witness who made the claim, much later, that she saw it all the way out in the limo, but I long ago documented in another thread that Bowron lied. Here is the relevant part of that post: ========BEGIN POST EXCERPT========== Nurse Diana Bowron was the person who took a stretcher out to the presidential limosine and, with an orderly named Joe—whose last name she couldn't recall in testimony—brought John F. Kennedy into the emergency room to prepare him for treatment. Nurse Bowron had come all the way from England in early August 1963, less than four months prior to the assassination, for a fateful one-year stint in the Parkland Hospital emergency room. Here is how she testified under oath on 24 March 1964: SPECTER: How many holes did you see? BOWRON: I just saw one large hole [referring to hole in head]. SPECTER: ...Did you notice any other wound on the President's body? BOWRON: No, sir. SPECTER: ...Did you ever see his [John F. Kennedy's] neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube? BOWRON: No, sir. In a 1993 letter, Nurse Bowron changed her story about what she had found when she got to the limosine: BOWRON: "I turned his head and seeing the size of the [head] wound realized that I could not stop the bleeding. I turned his head back and saw an entry wound in the front of the throat... ." She repeated her new version in her interview with Harrison Livingston: LIVINGSTON: And, so did you see the wound in the throat before? When he was in the car? BOWRON: Yes. LIVINGSTON: And what did that look like? BOWRON: Well, that looked like an entry wound. Ms. Bowron either lied under oath, or lied in her letter and interview, or she lied at all relevant times. Why would Ms. Bowron lie about the throat wound at all? =========END POST EXCERPT======== Why indeed? EDITED TO ADD: Sorry, Tom, didn't mean to overlook this: No, sorry. Ashton

I am reposting the relevant parts of this post of mine from page 5 of the thread called "The Purloined Projectile" because it has a great deal to do with sequence and timing of events in Trauma Room 1, and I believe it has relevance to this thread. Your mileage may vary. I've edited it somewhat to remove language that was relevant only to the other thread.: ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY was not at any relevant time on any bus, but was in what was called "the VIP car" in the motorcade. "We, therefore, were put in a so-called VIP vehicle." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Burkley Oral History interview, 17 October 1967 "On arrival in Dallas, Texas there was a long motorcade. Mrs. Lincoln—the President's Secretary—and I were in what Mr. Behn called the VIP car, which followed the cars containing the local and national representatives." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, WH22 CE 1126, Report dated 27 November 1963 by George G. Burkley, Physician to the President, on his participation in the activities surrounding the assassination ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY was at Parkland Hospital, by his own admission, within as little as three minutes of the arrival of JFK at Parkland hospital. "I was there probably within three to five minutes of the time the President arrived. I went immediately in to see the President, and went to the table on which he was being treated... ." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Burkley Oral History interview, 17 October 1967 "Agent Roger commandeered a car and a police escort led us at a rapid rate to the hospital arriving there between three and five minutes following the arrival of the President." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, WH22 CE 1126, Report dated 27 November 1963 by George G. Burkley, Physician to the President, on his participation in the activities surrounding the assassination ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY was indeed in the small Trauma Room 1 on Dr. Carrico's arrival in the room, just as Dr. Carrico has testified, and Jacqueline Kennedy was seated outside Trauma Room 1 on a folding metal chair during those early crucial minutes. "I went directly to the Emergency Room on the ground floor of the hospital and Mrs. Kennedy was seated in a folding chair directly beside the door of the small room in which the President was being observed. I immediately entered the room, went to the head of the table and viewed the President." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, WH22 CE 1126, Report dated 27 November 1963 by George G. Burkley, Physician to the President, on his participation in the activities surrounding the assassination "When I first observed him [President Kennedy] I was in the emergency room, seeing— Actually Governor Connally had been brought in first, as you know, Dr. Dulany and I had gone to care for Governor Connally, and when the President was brought in I left Governor Connally and went to care for the President. ...Admiral Burkley, I believe was his name, the President's physician, was there as soon as he got to the hospital. —Dr. Charles James Carrico, Warren Commission Hearings testimony, 30 Marc h 1964 ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY personally supplied John F. Kennedy's blood type, which happened very early on, before Nurse Henchliffe left Trauma Room 1 to go get the necessary blood, which she says was within about two minutes of JFK's actual arrival inside Trauma Room 1. "I...told them his blood type." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Burkley Oral History interview, 17 October 1967 "I checked the President's physical condition, gave the doctors working with the President the blood type... ." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Affidavit, 28 November 1978 "The team was working to supply 'O' Rh negative blood and I informed them that his blood group was 'O' Ph [sic] positive." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, WH22 CE 1126, Report dated 27 November 1963 by George G. Burkley, Physician to the President, on his participation in the activities surrounding the assassination From Warren Commission Testimony of Nurse Margaret M. Henchliffe: HENCHLIFFE: I found out who it was when I went out to get blood. SPECTER: About what time of day was that? HENCHLIFFE: Well, I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in. SPECTER: Did you observe him at some place in the hospital? HENCHLIFFE: I was working with him in the emergency room. SPECTER: ...Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there? HENCHLIFFE: Yes. SPECTER: Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room? HENCHLIFFE: Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1. SPECTER: And, where was he when you first saw him? HENCHLIFFE: He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2. SPECTER: ...Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room? HENCHLIFFE: Except when I left out to get blood. SPECTER: And how long were you gone? HENCHLIFFE: Oh, about 3 minutes or so; 3 or 4 minutes. ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY then was in Trauma Room 1 with Nurse Diana Bowron, who is documented as having lied about the throat wound. From Warren Commission Testimony of Nurse Diana Bowron: SPECTER: Where did Dr. Carrico join you? BOWRON: At the— I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s—the intravenous bottles up. SPECTER: And were there any other nurses present at that time when the President arrived in the trauma area? BOWRON: I don't think so, sir. SPECTER: Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico? BOWRON: I didn't notice anybody. There may have been. ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY was in Trauma Room 1 with Nurse Diana Bowron when Kennedy's clothing was partially removed, including his tie and the opening of his shirt. From Warren Commission Testimony of Secret Service Special Agent Roy H. Kellerman: KELLERMAN: ...While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency room his collar and everything is up... . FORD: But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency room you saw his face? KELLERMAN: That is right. FORD: But he had his tie and his collar still— KELLERMAN: Still on. FORD: Still on? KELLERMAN: Yes, sir. "When the President's clothing was removed at Parkland Hospital, his tie was cut off by severing the loop immediately to the wearer's left of the knot... ." —Warren Commission Report From Warren Commission Testimony of Nurse Diana Bowron: BOWRON: ...We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing... . From Warren Commission Testimony of Malcolm Perry: McCLOY: ...[W]hen you first saw the President, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away? MALCOLM PERRY: ...Dr. Carrico and the nurses were all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for them to do so. McCLOY: But you didn't actually remove his shirt? MALCOLM PERRY: No, sir; I did not. ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY was in Trauma Room 1 and personally "checked the President's physical condition," "viewed the President" at the "head of the table," and "saw President Kennedy's wounds at Parkland Hospital." "I went immediately in to see the President, and went to the table on which he was being treated... ."" —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Burkley Oral History interview, 17 October 1967 "I saw President Kennedy's wounds at Parkland Hospital... . I checked the President's physical condition... ." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Affidavit, 28 November 1978 "I immediately entered the room, went to the head of the table and viewed the President." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, WH22 CE 1126, Report dated 27 November 1963 by George G. Burkley, Physician to the President, on his participation in the activities surrounding the assassination ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY was in Trauma Room 1 when the cutdowns were done to start administering fluids to JFK. Jaqueline Kennedy was still outside Trauma Room 1 on a folding metal chair. Some hospital personnel felt she even was being neglected and arranged for some water for her, and asked if she would like to remove her bloodstained gloves, which she would not do. From Warren Commission Testimony of Nurse Diana Bowron: BOWRON: ...We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing... . "I checked the President's physical condition, gave the doctors working with the President the blood type and some adrenal medication (Sol U Cortef) to place in the intravenous blood and fluids which were being administered." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Affidavit, 28 November 1978 "I went directly to the Emergency Room on the ground floor of the hospital and Mrs. Kennedy was seated in a folding chair directly beside the door of the small room... ." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, WH22 CE 1126, Report dated 27 November 1963 by George G. Burkley, Physician to the President, on his participation in the activities surrounding the assassination "Mrs. Kennedy was sitting on a brown metal chair with left side almost in line with the trauma room door. She was composed but apparently in shock. She still had on her bloodstained gloves, her face was smudged and apparently nobody had done anything for her. This disturbed me deeply, and the first opportunity I had to catch Mrs. Nelson, I asked her to please do something; for Mrs. Kennedy. ...I offered to get Mrs. Kennedy, who was sitting outside of Trauma Room #1, a towel, and asked her if she would like to remove her gloves, which were saturated with blood. She said: 'No thank you, I'm all right.'" —WH21, Price Exhibit No. 7 ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY was in Trauma Room 1, within arms' reach, when Malcom Perry came in and had the conversation with Dr. Carrico about the throat wound, then started the tracheotomy. From Warren Commission Testimony of Malcolm Perry: MALCOLM PERRY: ...Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could. At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico, the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to assist respiration. SPECTER: ...Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time? MALCOLM PERRY: No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico-- SPECTER: What did you observe as to the President's condition at the time you first saw him ? MALCOLM PERRY: He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had been removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I believe. ...The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly. ...I determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in size or so. ...At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it was a wound, and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and. initiated the procedure. ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY not only was already in Trauma Room 1 when steroids were administered to John F. Kennedy, but in fact ordered the administration of the steroids himself, and in fact supplied the steroids to be used: SolU Cortef (spelled in evidence as Sol U Cortef). The assertion that Carrico administered steroids on his own is yet another willful and malicious falsehood designed to deceive. The source in testimony of that falsehood is Malcolm Perry himself—entered into the record under the guiding questioning of John J. McCloy himself—and the motive for the lie was to cover up the presence and activities of George Gregory Burkley inside Trauma Room 1. "I gave them some hydrocortisone, to put in the intravenous which was being given... ." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Burkley Oral History interview, 17 October 1967 "I checked the President's physical condition, gave the doctors working with the President the blood type and some adrenal medication (Sol U Cortef) to place in the intravenous blood and fluids which were being administered." —Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Affidavit, 28 November 1978 Perjury (willful false testimony under oath) from Warren Commission Testimony of Malcolm Perry : MALCOLM PERRY: ...It is to Dr. Carrico's credit, I think, he ordered the hydrocortisone for the President having known he suffered from adrenal insufficiency and in this particular instance being quite busy he had the presence of mind to recall this and order what could have been a lifesaving measure, I think. ADMIRAL GEORGE GREGORY BURKLEY personally went into the corridor and brought Jacqueline Kennedy into Trauma Room 1 only after the tracheotomy incision had been made—when he was damned good and ready for her to be there. DR. PETERS: When I arrived...Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and that they were working on his throat. ...[W]e asked for a set of tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. I then helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created. SPECTER: Were there any others present at that time, before you go on as to what aid you rendered? DR. PETERS: ...Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone who identified himself as the personal physician of the President. I don't remember his name. SPECTER: Dr. Burkley ? DR. PETERS: I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, because he was asking that the President be given some steroids... . That's the end of the reposting. You know, it's a darn shame for the theories being posited in this thread that no "bullet fragment" or "bone fragment" ever has turned up to account for that pesky hole in the throat—which just happened to be in the exact location that was "one of the" easiest and "safest" locations for a tracheotomy: MALCOLM PERRY: In the lower part of the neck below the Adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in diameter from which blood was exuding slowly. ...I asked Dr. Carrico if the wound on the neck was actually a wound or had he begun a tracheotomy and he replied in the negative, that it was a wound... I asked someone to secure a tracheotomy tray but there was one already there. ...I then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision right through the wound in the neck. SPECTER: Why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through the wound in the neck... MALCOLM PERRY: The area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would electively perform the tracheotomy. This is one of the safest and easiest spots to reach the trachea. ...Therefore, for expediency's sake I went directly to that level to obtain control of the airway. God (or someone) works in mysterious ways. As for the infamous slits in the shirt there around the lower third of the neck anteriorly, well... Ashton Gray

I will be happy to wander down the thorny paths of speculation with you, Robert—if you insist: "Why use a "large bore" needle (+4 mm) to administer a poison that could have been injected I.M. with a tiny needle on some other part of the body?" Speed, insurance that a needle wouldn't break off, insurance that the man was not ever coming out of that facility alive, and the impression of a gunshot wound. (Check) "Why choose the location of the throat, when the trachea would obviously become damaged as well?" So a tracheostomy could then compromise forensic analysis of the exact nature of the wound. Elementary, my dear Robert. (Check) "Why inject this large bore needle into the throat, when it seems quite likely the conspirators wanted all shots to be seen as coming from the rear?" Assumes "want" of conspirators not in evidence, counselor. If it was a CIA operation, what it "wanted" was a very dead JFK and as much confusion as possibly could be created. That's the most important product of any CIA operation: confusion and contradiction. I submit this very forum in evidence to say: (Check) "How did Malcolm Perry "obliterate" the throat wound by merely making scalpel incisions leading from the left and right side of this wound? Was the wound not still there and quite visible? Was the wound to the right side of the trachea also not still there, and quite visible as well?" Asked and answered, counselor. Exhaustively. I submit the fact of your own inability to prove that the wound was caused by any bullet at all. (Check) "If you believe Malcolm Perry was part of the conspiracy, and deliberately "obliterated" the throat wound, in an attempt to hide the administration of poison through this wound, why does Dr. Perry, 3.5 hours later, report both the entrance wound in JFK's throat PLUS the wound in the right side of JFK's trachea in his medical report?" No, Perry did not state unequivocally that there was a bullet entrance wound, because he waffled on it in his testimony, stating that it could be consistent with an exit wound. I already covered this in the second post in this thread, and I don't respond to fiction stated as fact. As far as Perry's own waffling, see "confusion and contradiction" above. Ashton

Here's this from Carrico himself: From Warren Commission testimony of Dr. Charles James Carrico SPECTER: You have described a number of doctors in the course of your testimony up to this point. Would you state what other doctors were present during the time the President was treated, to the best of your recollection? DR. CARRICO: ...Admiral Burkley, I believe was his name, the President's physician, was there as soon as he got to the hospital. The phrase "as soon as he got to the hospital" must be referring to "as soon as JFK got the the hospital," because it would be too stupid for words for Carrico to say Burkley "was there as soon as Burkley got to the hospital." Here's how Burkley told it at various times: ====================== Oral History Interview with ADMIRAL GEORGE G. BURKLEY October 17. 1967 Washington, D.C., By William McHugh For the John F. Kennedy Library BURKLEY: I got to the scene by securing a car through one of the Secret Service, Andy Berger, and an escort of a policeman. I was there probably within three to five minutes of the time the President arrived. I went immediately in to see the President, and went to the table on which he was being treated, and immediately saw for all intents and purposes life did not exist, or could not be sustained. ====================== George G. Burkley. "Report of my participation in the activities surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. 27 November 1963, 8:45 a.m. Agent Roger commandeered a car and a police escort led us at a rapid rate to the hospital, arriving there between three and five minutes following the arrival of the President. I went directly to the Emergency Room on the ground floor of the hospital and Mrs. Kennedy was seated in a folding chair directly beside the door of the small room in which the President was being observed. I immediately entered the room, went to the head of the table and viewed the President. It was sevident that death was imminent and that he was in a hopeless condition. Fluids had been started and he was being given extra-cardiac massage. The team was working to supply "0" Rh negative blood and I informed them that his blood group was "O" Ph [sic] positive. Due to the nature of the condition my direct services to him at that moment would have interferred with the action of the team which was in progress. ========================= George G. Burkley. Affidavit. 28 November 1978 I was Personal Physician to President John F. Kennedy in November 1963 and accompanied President Kennedy on the Texas trip. I was at Parkland Hospital and later at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the evening of November 22, 1963. I saw President Kennedy's wounds at Parkland Hospital and during the autopsy at the Bethesda Naval Hospital. There was no difference in the nature of the wounds I saw at Parkland Hospital and those I observed at the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital. 1. I was with President Kennedy in Dallas. I arrived at the Parkland Hospital within five minutes of the President's arrival. I checked the President's physical condition, gave the doctors working with the President the blood type and some adrenal medication (Sol U Cortef) to place in the intravenous blood and fluids which were being administered. My findings clearly indicated that death was certain and imminent. 2. One of the doctors reported to me vital signs of life no longer could be elicited. I rechecked the vital signs of President Kennedy and there was no sign of life. I reported to Mrs. Kennedy who was nearby in the treatment room that President Kennedy was dead. 3. I remained with the President's body in the treatment room until the body was placed in the coffin and I saw it closed. There was no movement or manipulation of the body other than removal of the intravenous equipment during that time. =========================== Dr. Perry, in his Warren Commission testimony, refers to Burkley's presence only as "a gentleman" who was with Jackie inside Trauma Room 1. Dr. Peters, who arrived fairly late in the proceedings, refers to Burkley's presence as "the personal physician of the President." I believe that nobody else who was in that trauma room mentions him at all. It seems pretty clear to me that he would not have interfered with any already attending doctors to inspect the wounds—but he claims that they were identical in the trauma room and in the autopsy, which indicates that he was completely familiar with the wounds (unless, of course, he's lied). He also says he went to the "head of the table," but that had to be before Carrico and subsequently Perry started their ministrations, or he would, indeed, have had to interfere with the work of any doctors who had arrived. I also consider it of interest and significance that Dr. J. Thornton Boswell has indicated in testimony the following about the autopsy: ======================== ... I think it was George Burkley that had requested it come to Bethesda. ... Q. Was it your impression in 1963 that Dr. Burkley was supervising what was going on in the autopsy room? A. Well, he wasn't supervising very closely. We were acting on certain of his instructions. Initially, Jim--at this time, I can't remember how Jim got his instructions from Burkley. I don't know whether Jim actually went upstairs to see Burkley or whether he came down. I never saw Admiral Burkley in the morgue. But at some point, Jim understood that we were to do a limited autopsy. ======================= And of course that has been contradicted by others involved in the autopsy. There's a surprise. Tom, I wish I had more time to devote to this, but I'm under extreme pressures right now related to the publication of the Watergate book, so I have to do drive-by postings when I can. Please forgive me for not being more thorough in this, but this is what I was able to throw together. Ashton

No, I don't disagree or feel it is at all ambiguous. Although I haven't revisited a cross-analysis of the testimony in some time, my recollection is that Carrico initially was with Connally, across the hall, very briefly, and Dr. Burkley was in Trauma Room 1 standing next to JFK—the only doctor in the room for a brief period—purportedly doing some unspecified inspection of the wounds. Henchliffe was busy setting up the IVs when Carrico came in, followed by Curtis and White. Burkley backed away from JFK when Carrico came in. Carrico took approximately the same position where Burkley had been, near JFK's head. I believe that's when the clothing was removed, with Henchliffe and Bowron. That's when Carrico saw the throat wound. (And no bullet fragment, by the way, in the throat or clothing.) Henchliffe then left Trauma Room 1 to go get blood. If—and please note the size of that "if"—someone might have slipped a large-bore needle coup de grace into the throat of Kennedy, Burkley had the skills and access at relevant times prior to the removal of the clothing. The act could have been covered, in the confusion, by his appearing to "inspect" the visible wounds. It would have been a matter of slipping it underneath the tie knot and between the button plackets below the top button. In fact, such a delivery would have created a wound exactly where the hole was found. It also even could account for nicks in the fabric of the shirt or tie. Ashton

Generally, with all sincere due respect to analysis of the testimony of various doctors and nurses involved, the visual evidence in the first post in this thread is dispositive: No matter what any of them say, whether by origination or by being led, it is categorically impossible for there ever to have been an entrance wound visible above JFK's collar and tie. If there had been, it would be visible right this minute to anyone looking at the death photos, and there is not even a dent, much less a hole, anywhere near an area that possibly could have been above a closed collar and tie worn by anyone but a Barnum & Bailey's clown. JFK wore tailored clothes, not some polyester shirt from K-Mart that sagged down to where his chest hairs would show with a tie on. I even created an animation to show how ridiculous a shirt and tie would look in any such position. My advice would have to be look, don't listen, and believe your eyes. Ashton

I believe that Dr. Burkley has not been given due attention in consideration of who was in the trauma room, and who had access to Kennedy's body, and when. He had his little black bag with him, supplying steroids. I mentioned this in the first post in the thread and still believe it bears further attention. Ashton

I don't know the exact answer to the question you've asked. There's a good deal of information that has been developed right here in the forum on Gunn, which you can find with a forum search. William Kelly and Robert Howard, for example, have done some very admirable research that includes info on Gunn. One thing I find more than a little fascinating in relation to this particular forum is this passage from H. P. Albarelli's A Terrible Mistake: The CIA’s Dr. Edward Gunn spent hours developing a delivery device, and on November 22, 1963 at a meeting in Paris, France, the device was handed over to a would-be assassin. Reads the CIA report: “It is likely that at the very moment President Kennedy was shot, a CIA officer was meeting with a Cuban agent in Paris and giving him an assassination device for use against Castro.” I don't think that needs further comment from me. According to this document, "CIA Inspector General's Report on Plots to Assassinate Fidel Castro," Gunn was Chief, Operations Division, Office of Medical Services in the CIA: http://www.angelfire.com/ny/syzergy/castroreport.htm There are probably better copies of that around, but that will do. I know of no source that has nailed down with anything approximating accuracy which of the alphabet-soup mind-control programs Gunn would have been directly involved in. Given the shredding parties of Richard Helms and Sidney Gottlieb to cover up their barbaric crimes against humanity, it's unlikely that we'll ever know. Ashton

Ashton, By "throat butchery" are you referring to your belief that Perry created the 'throat wound' with a large-bore needle, the tracheostomy procedure, or surgery performed later that resulted in the ragged throat wound as described by Humes et al at Bethesda? Tom Yes. Okay, that was just a little levity, Tom. Pleased to meet you. Seriously, I don't have any "belief" about the throat wound having been created with a large-bore needle. After I presented my evidence in the first two posts in this thread that the pre-tracheostomy wound in his throat could not have been created by a bullet entering from the front, Mark Stapleton asked "what the hell was it." I proffered the piercing needle as one possibility, that's all. As I've elaborated on since, the CIA already had a history of not dissimilar artifice in various plans to assassinate world leaders. I have yet to see anyone effectively counter the facts I presented in the first post in this thread, and introduce any rational way a bullet could have penetrated his throat in that location without damaging the clothing covering that part of his throat. I stand by my original thesis that it could not possibly have been a front-entry bullet wound. As for what it was, Mark Stapleton asked a good question. I'm certainly open to other ideas of what it might have been. It does seem likely to me that the medical cuttings on the throat were to obliterate any clear analysis of what it had been, but whether that was intentional or not, it certainly accomplished that purpose. If it hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The original hole was not, and could not have been, a bullet shot at him from the front. Ashton