Myra Bronstein

>Nah, more like someone attempting to come off as a newbie, "I've only been at this for a year or so."

>You know the routine. More like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Been there, done that.

Well I've been told I can't handle the truth. So in theory I shouldn't have a problem with that statement.

Here's my two cents:

Head Zipper man = Edward Lansdale

Tail Zipper man = David Atlee Phillips

Snake = JFK

Wim

That sure makes sense Wim. Phillips, the propaganda guy, backing up Lansdale, the quintessential CIA assassin. Make that four cents.

"Assassination is big business. It is the business of the CIA and any other power that can pay for the "hit" and control the assured getaway." --Leroy Fletcher Prouty, An Introduction to the Assassination Business (1975), http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsalandria.htm, http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/introAB.html

The research in this thread really helps in assembling another piece of the puzzle. It sure looks like McCone was quite the company man, and war profiteer. It appears that his appointment was one of Kennedy's bigger mistakes, along with his buildup of the CIA in Miami, prior to the Cuban Missle Crisis.

Those steps allowed the CIA to become stronger when they were already out of control.

I'm reading about the CIA buildup in Miami in this excellent article by Gaeton Fonzi:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

And as far as someone being unable or unwilling to understand...

I find it kind of amazing that some people seem unable or unwilling to understand...

-That this guy worked for the CIA--an agency that had two functions: murder and propaganda.

-That he transported known assassins around the world on a regular basis.

-That he transported known assassin John Roselli from Tampa (the site of an unsuccessful attempt to murder President Kennedy) to Dallas (the murder site of President Kennedy).

-That the claim he was flying a notorious mobster and assassin somewhere to abort an assassination is utterly incredible.

-That he sure seems to have President Kennedy's blood on his hands.

And I admit that I'm unable or unwilling to understand...

How or why this guy would be treated like some special guest star because he likes to talk about his front row seat to President Kennedy's assassination, which he was an accessory to.

Myra

"John "Handsome Johnny" Roselli (sometimes spelled Rosselli) (July 4, 1905 - August 9, 1976) was an influential Mafia soldier, one who had helped to control Hollywood and Las Vegas for the Chicago Mafia and who had allegedly been involved with the CIA plot to kill Cuban dictator Fidel Castro in the early 1960s and John Fitzgerald Kennedy's assassination in 1963.

...

Many believe Roselli had been ordered killed by Tampa, Florida mob boss Santos Trafficante because Trafficante had believed the aging Roselli had talked too much about the Kennedy assassination and Castro murder plots during his Senate testimony, violating the strict Mafia code of omerta (silence.)

James Files has claimed, in detail, how he, Roselli and Charles Nicoletti fired the fatal shots killing President John F. Kennedy at Dallas’ Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963.

Bill Bonnano also states in his autobiography that while he was imprisoned with Roselli he spoke to him about the Kennedy assassination. Roselli claimed that hehad fired a shot from a stormdrain located on Elm Street."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Roselli

Thank You Myra: I appreciate your thoughts and your honesty. This is what makes our country great.., the freedom to express and say what we think. I feel I fought for this freedom all my life. I can understand how you feel when you believe everything you read in books and accept it as fact with little effort on your part. I understand how the hate from others is transfered to a new generation by others who know nothing and fabricate most of what they write to spread the hate.

When you have walked in my shoes and went down my paths.., faced the demons I have faced, and watched many friends die the slow death for freedom, then and only then may you pass judgement on me and my fellow operatives. I will in no way justifie myself to you or anyone. You need people like me to do your dirty work so you can sleep in peace at night. You need people like me to catch the bull xxxx that your elected officials screw up and sell out to your lobbiest for profits. You have no idea what that world you so hate is really made of and how it really effects your day to day life. We protect your ass from the real boogie men that you can't see or refuse to believe are real.., get real you stupid bitch... Do You really think I give a xxxx what you think?

And I mean this in the nicest possible way:

Why does this sound familiar?

Oh, yeah...

Jessep: You want answers?

Kaffee: I think I'm entitled.

Jessep: You want answers?!

Kaffee: I want the truth!

Jessep: You can't handle the truth!

Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You?! You, Lieutenant Weinberg?! I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said, "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?

Jessep: I did the job I was sent to do--

Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?!

Jessep: (shouting) You're goddamn right I did!!

(Practically word for word. Nathan R. Jessep.)

_____________________________________

Terry,

I agree. Or someone who is either unable or unwilling to understand...

--Thomas

__________________________________________

And as far as someone being unable or unwilling to understand...

I find it kind of amazing that some people seem unable or unwilling to understand...

-That this guy worked for the CIA--an agency that had two functions: murder and propaganda.

-That he transported known assassins around the world on a regular basis.

-That he transported known assassin John Roselli from Tampa (the site of an unsuccessful attempt to murder President Kennedy) to Dallas (the murder site of President Kennedy).

-That the claim he was flying a notorious mobster and assassin somewhere to abort an assassination is utterly incredible.

-That he sure seems to have President Kennedy's blood on his hands.

And I admit that I'm unable or unwilling to understand...

How or why this guy would be treated like some special guest star because he likes to talk about his front row seat to President Kennedy's assassination, which he was an accessory to.

Myra

"John "Handsome Johnny" Roselli (sometimes spelled Rosselli) (July 4, 1905 - August 9, 1976) was an influential Mafia soldier, one who had helped to control Hollywood and Las Vegas for the Chicago Mafia and who had allegedly been involved with the CIA plot to kill Cuban dictator Fidel Castro in the early 1960s and John Fitzgerald Kennedy's assassination in 1963.

...

Many believe Roselli had been ordered killed by Tampa, Florida mob boss Santos Trafficante because Trafficante had believed the aging Roselli had talked too much about the Kennedy assassination and Castro murder plots during his Senate testimony, violating the strict Mafia code of omerta (silence.)

James Files has claimed, in detail, how he, Roselli and Charles Nicoletti fired the fatal shots killing President John F. Kennedy at Dallas’ Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963.

Bill Bonnano also states in his autobiography that while he was imprisoned with Roselli he spoke to him about the Kennedy assassination. Roselli claimed that hehad fired a shot from a stormdrain located on Elm Street."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Roselli

Tosh,

Somehow you overlooked the relevant sentence in the quote I posted. But I'll try again.

Which of the below two quotes is accurate?

Quote 1

---------

(You were describing the men you flew out of Dallas 11/22/63 after the failed JFK assassination abort:)

"I believed that if these men had been the shooters or assassins themselves, they would have been very excited because they had carried it off."

I certify this declaration to be true and correct to the best of my knowledge.

Dated this 21st day of November, 2004

William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee, aka William H."Buck" Pearson."

http://www.jfkchat.com/plumlee1.html

Quote 2

---------

(I asked how your colleagues had felt about JFK up until 11/22/63. You answered:)

"At the time most of the crew I knew were in favor of Kennedy."

William Plumlee

post Oct 25 2006, 03:05 AM

Post #4

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry78586

Not to put words in someone else's mouth... But I interpret this in the following way:

Mr. Plumlee's team was dejected because they had failed their mission to protect the president, a leader whom they favored.

Had some members of Mr. Plumlee's team been actively involved *in* the assassination, those members might have shown excitement rather than dejection. Because they left dejected, Mr. Plumlee concluded that none of his team had participated as successful shooter(s).

Does this phrasing ring true?

Thanks Frank. That says what I meant and rings true. Why could'nt I have said it that way... Myra. Does that help? Sorry if I confused anyone, but Frank did sum it up for me in a way I can live with..

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes yes yes. I see. I read it a totally different way. Thank you Frank and Tosh for helping me see the light. I hope you can understand now what I was perplexed about Tosh. Hm, I wonder if other people have read quote #1 and now think your passengers were bloodthirty.

Your statement was really precise, so I believe I'm clear that the flights to Dallas and from Dallas (I know there were multiple stops en route) had some different passengers, right? And John Roselli was not on the return flight.

So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then?

I know you were on the South size of Dealey Plaza and more people were on the North side. But did you happen to see any of the below?

-Joseph Milteer

-Ted Shackley

-David Morales

-Gerald Patrick Hemming

-Ed Lansdale

-Lucien Conein

-Alfredo Duran

-Rip Robertson

-John Adrian O'Hare

-Orlando Bosch (seems like he would have been directly opposite you)

-Ray Hargraves (ditto)

Or maybe we can come at this a different way: was there anyone in the crowd who did *not* work for the company?

I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand.

Thanks.

Myra

Ref:

http://www.google.com/search?q=familiar+fa...:en-US:official

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

*******************************************************************

"Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes yes yes. I see. I read it a totally different way. Thank you Frank and Tosh for helping me see the light. I hope you can understand now what I was perplexed about Tosh. Hm, I wonder if other people have read quote #1 and now think your passengers were bloodthirty.

Your statement was really precise, so I believe I'm clear that the flights to Dallas and from Dallas (I know there were multiple stops en route) had some different passengers, right? And John Roselli was not on the return flight.

So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then?

I know you were on the South size of Dealey Plaza and more people were on the North side. But did you happen to see any of the below?

-Joseph Milteer

-Ted Shackley

-David Morales

-Gerald Patrick Hemming

-Ed Lansdale

-Lucien Conein

-Alfredo Duran

-Rip Robertson

-John Adrian O'Hare

-Orlando Bosch (seems like he would have been directly opposite you)

-Ray Hargraves (ditto)

Or maybe we can come at this a different way: was there anyone in the crowd who did *not* work for the company?

I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand.

Thanks.

Myra"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Sounds like a lawyer badgering a witness, to me.

__________________________________________

Terry,

I agree. Or someone who is either unable or unwilling to understand...

--Thomas

__________________________________________

I don't think I was. But as long as I'm being accused of it:

"So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then?"

[On edit: I read that the name of JFK's bodyguard Emery Roberts called off was Henry Ripka. I'm amazed that I can't find much about him on google. Has he spoken out anywhere, or did he get suicided shortly after?

Myra, try Googling Henry Rybka. Also, searching this Forum will yield results.

Thank you so much Michael. That explains it.

It was Rybka who on Greer's instructions took JFK's clothes and stashed them in a White House locker, rather than send them with the body to the autopsy.

So he was basically an accessory after the fact...

LBJ on the plane demanding Jackie leave the side of her dead husband and stand next to him 'Watch me as i take over his job, as you stand there with his blood and brain matter on your clothes'

He is one of the most vile persons i have ever read about.

Give him a break. He had to do that to Jackie, because it was the only way for them to steal the body, for some butchering of the head. Can you think of a better reason?

It's like the macho guy said on one of those reality cop shows on TV, when he was arrested for beating his wife: "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."

When you put it that way Ron, it's hard to quibble with.

Thanks for setting us straight.

A thugs gotta do what a thugs gotta do.

Hi Myra,

I just read about the Emery Roberts thing recently...i think i read it here. There's 2 threads on the Secret Service here (well 2 that i've seen thus far). Yes, move them off the car so the snipers have a clear shot. The story about them out late drinking and carousing is really lame. (Can we be a little more obvious?) I'm sure they were, 'cause there had to be an excuse in place when they got called on for not acting. If i saw one of the President's bodyguards stumbling drunk into the hotel at 0200, i'd fire him on the spot; and if i didn't have the rank i'd go to the guy who does, wake him up and say "Fire this guy, and get a replacement here ASAP." I read that Clint Hill was called in as a replacement on that morning. I think that's why he's the only guy who acted, he wasn't a part of the group that was told to stand down. Also his normal assignment was Jackie's bodyguard. I don't think it was a matter of recruitment, it's about following orders. I hate to quote a movie, but the Mr. X/Fletcher Prouty character in JFK said, "What's the easiest way to get to the President? Strip away his protection."

Wouldn't it have been easier if this was done quietly? Covert? Something that looked like a heart attack? Then there's no Warren Commission, there's no films, there's no autopsy photos, bullet-riddled evidence, etc. It was more than just killing JFK, it was also to send a message. The excessive brutality that went on just sickens me. LBJ on the plane demanding Jackie leave the side of her dead husband and stand next to him 'Watch me as i take over his job, as you stand there with his blood and brain matter on your clothes'

He is one of the most vile persons i have ever read about.

Randy

Yeah Randy, I have similar sentiments about ol' LBJ. I can hardly type his name or initials 'cause he's so horrible. That photo of Albert Thomas winking and smiling at the smiling Johnson after he was sworn in on air force 1 just makes me sick. And how about this gem, describing what Jackie found when she boarded AF1 in her bloody pink dress and tried to get a moment alone in the bedroom she shared with her husband:

"According to Manchester, when Mrs. Kennedy boarded the plane, she found Johnson reclining" on her bed and "came to a dead stop." LBJ "hastily lumbered past her," followed by his secretary, Marie Fehmer, while "the widow stared after them." Then Johnson returned to offer condolences and "called her 'Honey!'" http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/a...6/300806jfk.htm

That does make sense that the drinking would be a cover story. As you indicated it should have been a firing offense if true. Clint Hill's presence was requested by Jackie and he was a late adder, as you said, so he clearly was out of the loop.

And the brutality of the murder...it was a public firing squad. RFK and MLK take note. This could happen to you. Of course we can't have a good president anymore, 'cause if they slip thru the net of voting fraud and somehow get elected they'd just get "neutralized" (as Nixon liked to say).

The secret service though--I wonder what Emery Roberts got for his treachery.

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front, nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

The bullet was cut to pieces and fragmened due to the manner in which it encountered the bone of the skull as it passed through the head of JFK.

Due to the manner in which the nose of the bullet split, it is highly possible that the copper jacket had been "sliced", thus resulting in a virtually immediate tearing apart of the bullet nose on impact.

>Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front...

Well I tried to slip that by you...

Yes, Z313.

>nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

How can you be so sure? Can you tell from pictures and film of the shot? How would a frangible bullet differ from what we've seen?

Thanks.

...None of the extant films show a near-stop condition from the limo, however....

Well, you make a really good point. I have no response for that.

I need to regroup, watch the films, and meditate.

I have read that "the position of vehicles in the motorcade was changed at the last minute" (at Love Field), (e.g., the press car being placed at the end).

This was one of the things that got me started digging into the JFK murder.

This fact has been reported/printed more than once, but not the identity of the person who ordered the change of placement of the vehicles.

I've always thought this to be one of the most salient and overlooked details. Because that's obviously one of the bad guys.

And we all know that the original, planned route was changed to go thru Dealey Plaza.

Now, is it just me, or if there was an actual criminal investigation, those would be 2 of the guys that you'd go grab up first.

LBJ's Secret Service play dogpile on him, JFK's people are on film just standing there looking around. How can anybody not see that there was a deliberate stand-down order in place.

.

Randy

I was just about to post this picture when I saw that you did Randy. Is it the smoking gun photo or what?

What should the secret service be looking for if not someone perched on a fire escape looming over the presidential motorcade?

I know every supposed SS rule was broken (open windows, roofs not secured, storm drains/manhole covers left loose, no motorcycle protection by the presidential limo, no secret service men on the limo...and how about that Emery Roberts pulling the two bodyguards off the back of the limo?

Anyone have any input on that? Did he really say "THEY got him"...?)

Either the SS were all completely hung over (which I've read they were) or they saw him and let it happen on purpose. And right inside the window, visible in the other Altgen photo, are two men, one with a gun aimed at the President.

http://tinyurl.com/ycmyvt

Yeah, a deliberate stand down order. For sure. But the SS complicity is the only participation that confuses me. How does the CIA or HL Hunt or LBJ or whoever approach the SS to recruit them? It's still unfathomable to me.

On edit: I read that the name of JFK's bodyguard Emery Roberts called off was Henry Ripka. I'm amazed that I can't find much about him on google. Has he spoken out anywhere, or did he get suicided shortly after?

Tosh,

Somehow you overlooked the relevant sentence in the quote I posted. But I'll try again.

Which of the below two quotes is accurate?

Quote 1

---------

(You were describing the men you flew out of Dallas 11/22/63 after the failed JFK assassination abort:)

"I believed that if these men had been the shooters or assassins themselves, they would have been very excited because they had carried it off."

I certify this declaration to be true and correct to the best of my knowledge.

Dated this 21st day of November, 2004

William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee, aka William H."Buck" Pearson."

http://www.jfkchat.com/plumlee1.html

Quote 2

---------

(I asked how your colleagues had felt about JFK up until 11/22/63. You answered:)

"At the time most of the crew I knew were in favor of Kennedy."

William Plumlee

post Oct 25 2006, 03:05 AM

Post #4

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry78586

Not to put words in someone else's mouth... But I interpret this in the following way:

Mr. Plumlee's team was dejected because they had failed their mission to protect the president, a leader whom they favored.

Had some members of Mr. Plumlee's team been actively involved *in* the assassination, those members might have shown excitement rather than dejection. Because they left dejected, Mr. Plumlee concluded that none of his team had participated as successful shooter(s).

Does this phrasing ring true?

Thanks Frank. That says what I meant and rings true. Why could'nt I have said it that way... Myra. Does that help? Sorry if I confused anyone, but Frank did sum it up for me in a way I can live with..

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes yes yes. I see. I read it a totally different way. Thank you Frank and Tosh for helping me see the light. I hope you can understand now what I was perplexed about Tosh. Hm, I wonder if other people have read quote #1 and now think your passengers were bloodthirty.

Your statement was really precise, so I believe I'm clear that the flights to Dallas and from Dallas (I know there were multiple stops en route) had some different passengers, right? And John Roselli was not on the return flight.

So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then?

I know you were on the South size of Dealey Plaza and more people were on the North side. But did you happen to see any of the below?

-Joseph Milteer

-Ted Shackley

-David Morales

-Gerald Patrick Hemming

-Ed Lansdale

-Lucien Conein

-Alfredo Duran

-Rip Robertson

-John Adrian O'Hare

-Orlando Bosch (seems like he would have been directly opposite you)

-Ray Hargraves (ditto)

Or maybe we can come at this a different way: was there anyone in the crowd who did *not* work for the company?

I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand.

Thanks.

Myra

Ref:

http://www.google.com/search?q=familiar+fa...:en-US:official

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

...

Keep up the work David, you are certainly on the correct pathway now, and perhaps you will be able to ultimately explain how a slowing down vehicle appears to maintain a speed of approximately 11mph when in fact it almost came to a complete stop.

Yeah, too many witnesses said it came to a stop, and at least one photo supports this. (The Altgens one where at least one door of the white SS limo was open. That's the car looking out for LBJ of course; the SS wouldn't lift a finger to help President Kennedy... 'Cept for Clint Hill who didn't get the memo.) This picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ike_Altgens

I'm becoming convinced that the Zapruder film was tampered with (I'm sure that's not a bombshell to you veterans, but I haven't been researching this for very long). Many frames were likely removed resulting in motions that are impossibly fast. So, doesn't that make it hard to do precise evaluations of gunshots and body motions? I think the film is valuable for getting the overall picture, but unreliable for continuity.

Plus, Jim Garrison said in "On the Trail of the Assassins" that he thought exploding bullet(s) were used, and I have to agree based on...the exploding head of the President. (God I hate those bastards that killed him.) Does that make it harder to determine trajectory?

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

...

Whether selling Hitler or the WC, one certainly wants to secure the BEST of the "creative writing" school of thought.

Hee hee, well said.

In fact I believe the CIA was importing nazi "talent" well before the end of WW2. Can't remember where I read this, either Deep Politics and the Death of JFK (book, not periodical) or Prouty's book ("JFK, The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy"). Gosh they sure plan ahead. Years ahead, maybe decades.

...

So I think Boggs was not fooled and was murdered. Anyone else have an opinion or info about Bogg's feelings on the WC?

Myra

I have some sort of - I hesitate to use this tierm- but "sixth sense" about these things. And in October 1972 I did not even know who Hale Boggs was, BUT I was very suspicious of this plane crash. It did not seem to me that it was an accident. I had heated discusiions about this at the time. I had not yet done serious research into the JFK assassination- (tho believed it to be conspiracy from day one). Then in the period between 73-76 I read about 40 books on the assassination. In his interview with Playboy Garrison credited Huey Long -( or was it Russell, don't remember)- with getting him (Garrison) interested in re-visiting the assassination of JFK. But according to Mellen- who I believe- this was to cover for Hale Boggs.

I have heard that Bogg's signature on the WCR was actually forged. May be folklore, but he was not fooled and I think he was about to go public when his plane went missing.

Not for a moment do I believe that his daughter does not know the truth. But to keep her job she whores out her father's memory.

Dawn

Just for emphasis, as mentioned in separate posts in this thread:

-No bodies were found,

-No parts of an airplane were found,

-Nothing was found--no evidence of a crash at all.

From one of John's posts:

"On October 16, 1972, Hale Boggs vanished during a flight in Alaska from Anchorage to Juneau. Despite a thirty-nine-day search by the Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard, no trace of the twin-engine plane on which Boggs was traveling has ever been found."

Before Bogg's disappearance assassinations were carried out with guns. Bogg's "accident" seems to have been a watershed event in that airplanes with left-leaning politicians were thereafter dropping like flies.

>http://www.namebase.org/main2/Hale-Boggs.html

Great resource John, thank you.

Tosh,

Somehow you overlooked the relevant sentence in the quote I posted. But I'll try again.

Which of the below two quotes is accurate?

Quote 1

---------

(You were describing the men you flew out of Dallas 11/22/63 after the failed JFK assassination abort:)

"I believed that if these men had been the shooters or assassins themselves, they would have been very excited because they had carried it off."

I certify this declaration to be true and correct to the best of my knowledge.

Dated this 21st day of November, 2004

William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee, aka William H."Buck" Pearson."

http://www.jfkchat.com/plumlee1.html

Quote 2

---------

(I asked how your colleagues had felt about JFK up until 11/22/63. You answered:)

"At the time most of the crew I knew were in favor of Kennedy."

William Plumlee

post Oct 25 2006, 03:05 AM

Post #4

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry78586

>

That was very well said, Myra.

Randy

Thank you Randy.

And I read in an earlier statement of yours that on the airplane ride out of Dallas your passengers were downcast; you speculated it was because they would have liked to kill JFK themselves.

How would that jibe with a crew you describe as mostly being in favor of Kennedy?

Myra

"... And I read in an earlier statement of yours that on the airplane ride out of Dallas your passengers were downcast; you speculated it was because they would have liked to kill JFK themselves...".

Myra: I think you should re read that post or interview. I never said "they would of liked to have killed Kennedy themselves", as the reason for being downcast. They were --and we were-- downcast and dejected because we (they) had failed the mission. If you read that "... killed JFK themselves....". then it was changed by someone for whatever reasons. I have never said that.

"... How would that jibe with a crew you describe as mostly being in favor of Kennedy? ..".

It would not jibe if I had said that.

Hi Tosh, I was paraphrasing. I don't do so good when I try to post from memory. So I found the blurb I was trying to reference:

"The people on the flight out of Dallas were very quiet. I interpreted their silence as dejection at the mission's failure to abort the assassination of the President. I believed that if these men had been the shooters or assassins themselves, they would have been very excited because they had carried it off.

...

I certify this declaration to be true and correct to the best of my knowledge.

Dated this 21st day of November, 2004

William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee, aka William H."Buck" Pearson."

http://www.jfkchat.com/plumlee1.html

Do you see where I'd get the impression that your passengers were dejected that they didn't get to murder President Kennedy themselves?

And that led to my question: How would [a crew that wanted to kill President Kennedy] jibe with a crew mostly in favor of Kennedy?

Thanks.

Myra

As for the deaths of Gary Webb, and of JFK jr.; having read what i can find about each of those, i'm curious as to what people here believe. That Webb was a suicide? That JFK jr. was an accident?

Regards,

Randy

I'm certain JFK Jr was murdered. The reason? Hell, he was unstopable; he was a prince.

He was the son of the beloved martyred President Kennedy and beloved classy Jackie, so he had the pedegree. Everyone who wasn't pure evil (i.e., the vipers who killed his father) loved him. He was glamorous, better looking than any movie star, had a gorgeous wife, but he was still a regular guy. A nice normal regular guy, who didn't seem to think he was better than others; he wasn't remote and standoffish. He was incredibly polite, to even the rudest reporters, even though he was stalked relentlessly by the press. He was intelligent and likable.

I've consistently read that he was about to announce he was going into politics. If he ran there would have been no stopping him, he would have beaten anybody. And he would have gotten all the way to the top if he wanted. Also, like his Uncle Bobby, if he was in a position to investigate his father's murder he would have. I believe he'd said he didn't believe the WC crap.

Oh yeah, he was murdered. The circumstances of the day his plane disappeared were totally suspicious. An obvious cover up was taking place; reports changed and contradicted previous ones by the hour.

This is a sidebar, brought on by what you said about the change in America as a nation. I remember reading (in of the many books and articles) about JFK in the White House right before the Berlin Wall. The gist being, there was a lot of tension in the room as JFK waited to find out what was going to happen. Then word came that the Soviets had decided to build a wall (i don't remember which author, but this was a first person narrative). The author wrote that JFK said: "A wall? What are we supposed to do about a wall?" (words to that effect). The point being, it was a contingency that nobody had imagined; that responses had been planned for A, B, or C; but, what can you do if someone builds a wall?

And i vividly remember the day the Berlin Wall came down, and as i watched the crowd of people some part of my mind did the math; and i realized if he hadn't been killed JFK would have been alive to see the tearing down of the Berlin Wall. And i felt a great sadness over that. He had sounded so dispirited at it's beginning.

I think America, as a nation, is hard to define; there's the ideas and attitudes of the generation of WW1 and WW2. I was born in '63, i've seen footage of the 60's read and heard about how the soldiers were treated by the civilians. Even as a youth, i'd think: why are they mad at the soldiers, they don't want to be there, go take it out on the people who sent them there; how can people not understand that?

At some point you have to let reality in, if you don't you're living a fantasy. So, if we go back to the beginning; how does a nation rise up and say it stands for freedom when it kidnaps and enslaves another group of people? That's just not logical. And i suppose that's my point: in reality, there's much that is illogical and contradictory. I respect the viewpoint of the earlier generations.

But i wonder to myself, is the country really changing or is it's true face beginning to show? In reality, America was founded on kidnapping, enslavement, murder, theft and genocide. But it could have, it could have been a truly great thing. We had that potential. It's the ones at the top that don't let that happen. In the past or the present. Those are the ones i get angry about. The ones that took away what my country could have been.

Randy

Hi Randy. I sure know what you're talking about when you ask "how does a nation rise up and say it stands for freedom when it kidnaps and enslaves another group of people? That's just not logical."

Kevin Tillman asked the same think in his wonderful Oct 19 essay on the occasion of his deceased brother Pat's birthday: "Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is."

I think we are aware here of the significance of President Kennedy's assassination in that "somehow." Who was it that said that it was effective to accuse opponents of doing what we're doing? Accuse them of being what we are. Machiavelli? Orwell? Rove?

I also share your ambivalence/disgust/discomfort (don't want to put words in your mouth) over the US's genesis. "All men are created equal"...except for some, like the black ones. Uh, seems to me we were poisened from the outset. And there's the good ol' electoral college to keep the commoners (poor dumb rubes) from voting in the *wrong* president. We saw how well that musty old system worked for the power elite in 2000 when Gore won the popular vote but Bush was saved by the foresight of our aristocratic forefathers. It keeps insiders in and outsiders out.

Yeah, this country didn't start out very idealistic or pure, and I think that must be a factor in our current rancidity. Our forefathers wanted slave labor and now as globalist rulers they want the same thing. If the president of Haiti or Venezuela raises the minimum wage the CIA overthows them. (Or in the case of President Chavez tries to overthrow him. Ah but he's a clever one.)

You say that at some point you have to let reality in, but I don't know if this country can or will. The truth is worse than the worst nightmare. I don't know if people are generally open to that. And even if they are, what to do with the truth? The power elite were out of control in 1963, and they've spent 40 years tightening their fists around our leashes.

I sure don't know the answers. For now all I can do is learn the truth in spite of their constant propaganda. My own flavor of civil disobedience.

Myra

I'm experiencing that sensation of confusion that is preceeded by my reading of a book. It says that in 1954 the NSC initiated rules that precluded known armed services from assisting in covert CIA operations in peacetime. This meant that President Kennedy could not have ordered airstrikes to bail out the failed Bay of Pigs in 1961 even if he wanted to. Given that this was the law of the land the President was following, it was understood at the time that he had that restriction, so there actually was not the hostile blame of him that we've been led to believe in subsequent years.

Does anyone know any more about this? Is it true? I believe that NSC rule did exist, so it seems feasible.

Has the supposed hatred of Kennedy by the Bay of Pigs survivors been exagerated--or fabricated? Possibly to boost the scenario that some bitter cuban exiles killed him (without the CIA of course...)?

...

Tosh,

Thank you so much for answering my questions. I find your answerings comforting. Researching President Kennedy's murder is very emotional for me. Not only because a fine man was slaughtered, but because it was--as you indicate--the start of the end. It is now clear that a good and genuine leader like JFK, Malcolm X, MLK, and RFK will be exterminated by the shadow government.

If you're willing to answer another question, I wonder: was your attitute towards JFK (non-political and non-hostile) atypical amongst your colleagues?

Thanks again.

Myra

(On edit: Corrected a typo.)

Myra: At the time most of the crew I knew were in favor of Kennedy. Although we tried to stay out of the politics. I can't speak for others in the Pentagon. That was a mixed breed and you could never figure the brass out. However, you could feel that the military was going political. It was divided. I think those years were the beginning of America's decay. It became, in some circles, " if your not for us-- you are against us". Kind of like it is now here in America. Some were a mixed bag of tricks and dirty tricks. It was tough to know where to walk sometimes, as I said it was the beginning of decay and deciet.

So in answer to your question. We were a "specialized secret crew" attatched to the Penetagon and we stood with the Comander in Chief, President Kennedy. Some of us were eliminated in Nam.

Tosh, Thank you again for your reply.

"A mixed bag of tricks and dirtry tricks" eh? Nicely said.

I am surprised though at the sanguine reaction of those professonals who must have felt their livelyhoods threatened by President Kennedy's peace-mongering.

And I read in an earlier statement of yours that on the airplane ride out of Dallas your passengers were downcast; you speculated it was because they would have liked to kill JFK themselves.

How would that jibe with a crew you describe as mostly being in favor of Kennedy?

Myra

I thought Ruby placed the bullet on a stretcher, albeit the wrong stretcher. He was seen and recognized by at least two people at Parkland (I don't have their names handy, sorry) right after the shooting.

Myra

Myra, Seth Kantor claimed to have seen Ruby outside Parkland, and to have spoken to him. (he knew Ruby well) The image of Ruby placing the bullet on the gurney comes from Stones JFK...Steve.

Thanks Steve. I haven't seen Stones JFK believe it or not. (But I want to see the director's cut.) So I know I've read in a book that two people saw Ruby and he could have planted the magic bullet. It might have been from Mark Lane, I just finished his books, probably Rush to Judgement.

Ok good, one man (Seth Kantor then) spoke to Ruby at the hospital. Then there was a woman who saw him at length during something like a press conference where people were standing around. Ah, this website says that Crossfire/Jim Marrs mentioned that Seth Kantor saw Ruby. http://roswell.fortunecity.com/angelic/96/pctime.htm

(Hey, according to this site Kantor wrote a book about Ruby called "The Ruby Cover-Up."

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...blio_alph.html)

I do think he was a likely source of the bullet. I don't think it came out of a body 'cause it was pristine.

I thought Ruby placed the bullet on a stretcher, albeit the wrong stretcher. He was seen and recognized by at least two people at Parkland (I don't have their names handy, sorry) right after the shooting.

Myra