Myra Bronstein
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Post moved from http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=8401&st=15 to keep threads on topic:
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Just to tell you my own personal experience with Mack, as soon as I started posting on three forums he pelted me with email "correcting" my posts. I saw Wim's thread on Mack at his site so I was on guard. I asked Mack for evidence of his first allegation to me, was informed that I'd have to travel to the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas to see it, and that was all I needed to know. I've since received a few emails from him "correcting" my posts but I ignore them. He clearly patrols multiple forums for newbies that might be guillible.
Since you've referenced this situation, I for one would be very interested to know exactly what your posts detailed which prompted Gary Mack to respond to you. Do you mind sharing what your post stated, how he corrected you, and then what his subsequent allegations were?
I realize this could all have happened long ago and it's understandable if you no longer have the info. Likewise if you'd rather not share the substance of the encounter.
I'll supply that info Mark. Normally I wouldn't post a private email without permission, but in this case it's someone I mistrust repeatedly sending me unsolicited and unwanted email. I assume he does this with many people so it might as well be out in the open. This is gonna be a long thread though.
================================
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Here's post 1 he emailed me about, from jfklancer:
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Myra Bronstein Thu Oct-26-06 06:08 PM
Member since Oct 20th 2006
95 posts Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
In response to In response to 3
>...
>Another lapse was that DPD Homicide Captain Fritz testified
>to the WC that someone told him outside his office in the
>hallway that Oswald had a room in Oak Cliff and gave him the
>address. This was while Oswald had just been taken to Fritz's
>office. It was later learned that this address information did
>not come from Oswald or the arresting officers. There was no
>effort to learn how the source knew where Oswald had a room.
>...
>
>Regards, Charles
Captain Fritz was a wee bit of a xxxx.
"In his 1975 book Forgive My Grief Vol. III, author Penn Jones wrote, "Roger Craig was a great American."
When Jones wrote those words, Craig, a former Deputy in the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, had recently died by his own hand. It was Jones' contention that "...the treatment Craig received after John F. Kennedy was assassinated...caused his death."
Roger Dean Craig was an important witness to the JFK assassination, and his testimony is highly indicative of conspiracy. By now his story has been told many times by many different writers. But it appears there are those still attempting to smear Roger Craig's name and discount what he reported seeing on November 22, 1963.
...
Craig heard an arrest had been made in connection with the shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit. As he told the Warren Commission, "I kept thinking about this subject that had run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up as a suspect. And--uh--they asked me to come up and look at him at Captain Fritz's office." Craig took one look at the Tippit shooting suspect and said it was the same man he had seen flee the TSBD.
That suspect, of course, was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Craig. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What about this station wagon?" And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it." And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene." And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."<5>
...
Unfortunately for Roger Craig, Captain Fritz said the incident in his office never happened.
Mr. Ball. Did ever come into your office and talk to you in the presence of Oswald?
Mr. Fritz. In the presence of Oswald?
Mr. Ball. Yes.
Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I am sure he did not."
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...sue/rcraig.html
A photograph turned up later showing Craig in Fritz's office when Oswald was there, proving that Fritz had lied. I think the photo is shown in "On the Trail of the Assassins," by Jim Garrison.
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Here's the thread with his first email to me and my replies:
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#52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
gmack@jfk.org
to me
More options Oct 26
Myra,
The photo in question was shot by Dallas Morning News photographer Jack Beers and it was taken on Saturday. The negative strip still survives, I have seen it, and it is unquestionably a Saturday picture.
So Fritz wasn't lying after all. Craig's story cannot be confirmed by that picture.
Gary Mack
Reply Forward Invite gmack@jfk.org to Gmail
myra bronstein
to gmack
More options Oct 26
Thanks Gary.
Just to be sure I know who I'm talking to, are you curator of the
Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas?
Are you personally of the opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered
President Kennedy, and had no accomplices?
I'm curious, how come you didn't post your opinion in the JFK Lancer
forum where the discussion is taking place in addition to emailing me?
Myra
- Show quoted text -
On 10/26/06, gmack@jfk.org <gmack@jfk.org> wrote:
>
> Myra,
>
> The photo in question was shot by Dallas Morning News photographer Jack Beers and it was taken on Saturday. The negative strip still survives, I have seen it, and it is unquestionably a Saturday picture.
>
> So Fritz wasn't lying after all. Craig's story cannot be confirmed by that picture.
>
> Gary Mack
>
Reply Forward
Gary Mack
to me
More options Oct 26
-----Original Message-----
From: myra bronstein [mailto:myra.bronstein@###]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 2:15 PM
To: Gary Mack
Subject: Re: #52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
Thanks Gary.
Just to be sure I know who I'm talking to, are you curator of the Sixth
Floor Museum in Dallas?
GM: Yes.
Are you personally of the opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered
President Kennedy, and had no accomplices?
GM: Everyone who knows me knows I personally believe the HSCA acoustics
evidence of two gunmen. All known hard evidence says Oswald pulled the
trigger.
I'm curious, how come you didn't post your opinion in the JFK Lancer
forum where the discussion is taking place in addition to emailing me?
GM: I don't post on newsgroups for there isn't enough spare time to
handle the inquiries and nut cases that result. I gave you some
information that you otherwise would have had no way of knowing. Do
with it what you want.
Gary Mack
- Show quoted text -
Myra
On 10/26/06, gmack@jfk.org <gmack@jfk.org> wrote:
>
> Myra,
>
> The photo in question was shot by Dallas Morning News photographer
Jack Beers and it was taken on Saturday. The negative strip still
survives, I have seen it, and it is unquestionably a Saturday picture.
>
> So Fritz wasn't lying after all. Craig's story cannot be confirmed by
that picture.
>
> Gary Mack
>
Reply Forward Invite Gary to Gmail
myra bronstein
to Gary
More options Oct 26
Case Closed then.
You can spare me the disinformation in the future.
I'll let you get back to your jobs.
Myra
- Show quoted text -
On 10/26/06, Gary Mack <GMack@jfk.org> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: myra bronstein [mailto:myra.bronstein@###]
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 2:15 PM
> To: Gary Mack
> Subject: Re: #52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
>
> Thanks Gary.
>
> Just to be sure I know who I'm talking to, are you curator of the Sixth
> Floor Museum in Dallas?
>
> GM: Yes.
>
>
> Are you personally of the opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered
> President Kennedy, and had no accomplices?
>
> GM: Everyone who knows me knows I personally believe the HSCA acoustics
> evidence of two gunmen. All known hard evidence says Oswald pulled the
> trigger.
>
>
> I'm curious, how come you didn't post your opinion in the JFK Lancer
> forum where the discussion is taking place in addition to emailing me?
>
> GM: I don't post on newsgroups for there isn't enough spare time to
> handle the inquiries and nut cases that result. I gave you some
> information that you otherwise would have had no way of knowing. Do
> with it what you want.
>
> Gary Mack
>
>
> Myra
>
>
> On 10/26/06, gmack@jfk.org <gmack@jfk.org> wrote:
> >
> > Myra,
> >
> > The photo in question was shot by Dallas Morning News photographer
> Jack Beers and it was taken on Saturday. The negative strip still
> survives, I have seen it, and it is unquestionably a Saturday picture.
> >
> > So Fritz wasn't lying after all. Craig's story cannot be confirmed by
> that picture.
> >
> > Gary Mack
> >
>
>
Reply Forward
Gary Mack
to me
More options Oct 26
Which disinformation would that be?
-----Original Message-----
From: myra bronstein [mailto:myra.bronstein@###]
- Show quoted text -
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 3:51 PM
To: Gary Mack
Subject: Re: #52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
Case Closed then.
You can spare me the disinformation in the future.
I'll let you get back to your jobs.
Myra
On 10/26/06, Gary Mack <GMack@jfk.org> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: myra bronstein [mailto:myra.bronstein@###]
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 2:15 PM
> To: Gary Mack
> Subject: Re: #52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
>
> Thanks Gary.
>
> Just to be sure I know who I'm talking to, are you curator of the
> Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas?
>
> GM: Yes.
>
>
> Are you personally of the opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered
> President Kennedy, and had no accomplices?
>
> GM: Everyone who knows me knows I personally believe the HSCA
> acoustics evidence of two gunmen. All known hard evidence says Oswald
> pulled the trigger.
>
>
> I'm curious, how come you didn't post your opinion in the JFK Lancer
> forum where the discussion is taking place in addition to emailing me?
>
> GM: I don't post on newsgroups for there isn't enough spare time to
> handle the inquiries and nut cases that result. I gave you some
> information that you otherwise would have had no way of knowing. Do
> with it what you want.
>
> Gary Mack
>
>
> Myra
>
>
> On 10/26/06, gmack@jfk.org <gmack@jfk.org> wrote:
> >
> > Myra,
> >
> > The photo in question was shot by Dallas Morning News photographer
> Jack Beers and it was taken on Saturday. The negative strip still
> survives, I have seen it, and it is unquestionably a Saturday picture.
> >
> > So Fritz wasn't lying after all. Craig's story cannot be confirmed
> > by
> that picture.
> >
> > Gary Mack
> >
>
>
Reply Forward Invite Gary to Gmail
myra bronstein
to Gary
More options Oct 26
On 10/26/06, Gary Mack <GMack@jfk.org> wrote:
> Which disinformation would that be?
"The photo in question was shot...on Saturday.
...
The negative strip still survives, I have seen it, and it is
unquestionably a Saturday picture."
I don't suppose you have evidence that the picture was taken on
Saturday (presumably Nov 23, 1963)?
Reply Forward
Gary Mack
to me, Gary
More options Oct 26
Of course I have evidence - that's why I wrote what I did.
As you may already know, all Friday pictures of Oswald show him wearing the dark shirt he was arrested in; after the midnight press conference, cops took the shirt, so later Saturday pictures show him wearing only a t-shirt.
The strip shows Oswald in one or two frames wearing just the t-shirt. One of the other frames shows Marina arriving at Fritz' office, and she didn't go there until Saturday afternoon around 1.
The Craig photo is also on that same strip and, while he was inside the Homicide and Robbery Bureau office, the picture cannot be used to place him IN Fritz' office. Fritz' small room was one of several inside that office. The office can be seen behind Craig - it's the room with the Venetian blinds rolled down.
How do I know all this? The photographer's widow loaned some contact sheets to The Sixth Floor Museum for reference and that's what I studied. No researchers have ever seen that material, so that's why I took the time to let you know about it.
Gary Mack
----- Original Message -----
From: myra bronstein
To: Gary Mack
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: #52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
- Show quoted text -
On 10/26/06, Gary Mack <GMack@jfk.org> wrote:
> Which disinformation would that be?
"The photo in question was shot...on Saturday.
...
The negative strip still survives, I have seen it, and it is
unquestionably a Saturday picture."
I don't suppose you have evidence that the picture was taken on
Saturday (presumably Nov 23, 1963)?
Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Gary to Gmail
myra bronstein
to Gary
More options Oct 26
Well that's helpful Gary. Thank you.
I should have been more precise though.
Do you have evidence that you can share so that I can see it with my
own eyes and draw my own conclusions? That would be extremely
helpful. If it's a demonstrable fact that the picture was taken on
Saturday then I was unknowingly spreading disinformation, which I
don't want to do.
Myra
- Show quoted text -
On 10/26/06, Gary Mack <gmackjfk@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Of course I have evidence - that's why I wrote what I did.
>
> As you may already know, all Friday pictures of Oswald show him wearing the
> dark shirt he was arrested in; after the midnight press conference, cops
> took the shirt, so later Saturday pictures show him wearing only a t-shirt.
>
> The strip shows Oswald in one or two frames wearing just the t-shirt. One
> of the other frames shows Marina arriving at Fritz' office, and she didn't
> go there until Saturday afternoon around 1.
>
> The Craig photo is also on that same strip and, while he was inside the
> Homicide and Robbery Bureau office, the picture cannot be used to place him
> IN Fritz' office. Fritz' small room was one of several inside that office.
> The office can be seen behind Craig - it's the room with the Venetian blinds
> rolled down.
>
> How do I know all this? The photographer's widow loaned some contact sheets
> to The Sixth Floor Museum for reference and that's what I studied. No
> researchers have ever seen that material, so that's why I took the time to
> let you know about it.
>
> Gary Mack
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: myra bronstein
> To: Gary Mack
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:38 PM
> Subject: Re: #52042, "RE: Dallas PD - In on a Conspiracy?"
>
>
> On 10/26/06, Gary Mack <GMack@jfk.org> wrote:
> > Which disinformation would that be?
>
> "The photo in question was shot...on Saturday.
> ...
> The negative strip still survives, I have seen it, and it is
> unquestionably a Saturday picture."
>
> I don't suppose you have evidence that the picture was taken on
> Saturday (presumably Nov 23, 1963)?
>
>
Reply Forward
Gary Mack
to me
More options Oct 27
Sorry, that material was returned long ago. I may have a photo copy of the sheets, but since the Museum doesn't own the images, I can't make copies for others. But I can certainly show them to anyone who stops by.
It's interesting to me that the photo has been used since at least 1976 as "proof" that Craig was in Fritz' office. And yet either the proponents of the claim either didn't bother to learn WHEN the picture was taken or purposely misrepresented it's actual date.
Things like that are what made me realize that I needed to check out everything, and to look at all sides of the various issues.
Here's an example. Many books talk about the scope of Oswald's rifle being mounted to the side and couldn't be aligned accurately. But the same books usually don't mention that, at those distances, the scope isn't necessary and would, in fact, slow down the shooter.
So what kind of people/books misrepresent such things? The only answer I can figure out is they are either dishonest or ignorant about the details.
Gary Mack
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Here's his email to me which I ignored:
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#52160, "RE: FBI Security in Dealey Plaza"
gmack@jfk.org
to me
More options Oct 29
Myra, where do you get such bad information?
Rybka wasn't assigned to red in the SS car, he was supposed to have stayed at Love Field, and he did.
If you'll look at a clear version of the video, not that awful kinescope from YouTube, you'll see that he was smiling. His gesture was one of humor because he was left behind....as planned.
Gary Mack
-
Just to tell you my own personal experience with Mack, as soon as I started posting on three forums he pelted me with email "correcting" my posts. I saw Wim's thread on Mack at his site so I was on guard. I asked Mack for evidence of his first allegation to me, was informed that I'd have to travel to the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas to see it, and that was all I needed to know. I've since received a few emails from him "correcting" my posts but I ignore them. He clearly patrols multiple forums for newbies that might be guillible.
Reply moved to http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry80183 to keep threads on topic.
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I do know there has been a whispering campaign claiming that I am a CIA disinformation agent. This includes some esteemed members of this forum. However, I believe they have done this because they genuinely believe I am CIA. In fact, if I was running a CIA disinformation campaign I would get an asset to set up a forum like this. It would be a great way to monitor the JFK research community. It would also enable you to find out who is willing to talk. It is no coincidence that JFK researchers like Gus Russo and Gary Mack end up being opposed to conspiracy theories. In reality, they could have been plants from the beginning.
I believe you have to be very careful about what you write. You only have to read John McAdams’ site to see who they pick on. As I said on another thread, I think Joan Mellan was discredited by being fed the Angelo Murgado story. I also think that the Juan Almeida story is an attempt to discredit Lamar Waldron.
I was approached by Judith Baker with her story several years ago. I did not believe her and did not run with it. However, I did invite her to join the forum to face her doubters. She did for a while but soon discovered that a forum is not the best way to push your story. Others like Adele Edison, Manuel Ray, Howard K. Davies, Alfred Baldwin and Gerry Hemming were not willing to stay and answer questions for too long. That does not mean they were lying. There might be very good reasons why they cannot tell their full story on this forum.
Well, Thanks for that John, and for what it is worth I don't suspect you of being anything but committed to exposing the historic and current puppet-masters and the 'alternative' truth [which is in fact the real truth] of many historical/social events. Russo infitrated my research and did quite a 'number' on my project at the time. Mack I'm agnostic on. I could name others who are definitely disinformation agents. We even have a few on this Forum IMO. Look what happened to Garrison, HSCA, Watergate, Iran-Contra, Warren and 911 Ommissions, and many others....controlled either from the get-go or by dis-information agents/provocateurs and/or dirty tricks. Politicians have been bought by those with money and who really increasingly run the 'show'. This trend has been clear and accelerating from beween the two World Wars up to today. It was ongoing before. One good sign I have seen lately is that even some covert operatives who have done the enforcer work for the Oligarchy, via the intelliegence apparatus, are beginning to increasingly turn on their former masters and break their vows of secrecy out of disgust and a sense of betrayal that what they were doing was not to 'protect' America - as they increasingly can see who benefited and who did not [the American People]. I feel there is so little time in the USA. The Patriot Act gives executive 'privilege' to do anything from cancelling elections to declaration of martial law or even branding anyone a terrorist and thus they can be imprisoned, tortured and never [!] having to be charged nor brought to trial - and other even worse provisions - many still secret! It can all be turned around...but it is, IMO, now or never...and the window of 'now' is not large [ 2-16 years my guess, tops]. What happens in the USA will not immediately effect Europe, but will have a follow-on effect and the same forces are working there too. It will immediately effect those developing nations we try to enslave into the Corporate Machine which IMO is driving the entire insanity. We are up against very big forces and a site like this is monitored most closely, I am SURE! The top 1% in America now owns 70% of all the wealth and that is increasing rapidly. They will not give up their money and power without a fight and they have now almost all the levers of control and coersion. They own the politicians. They can manipulate the elections and long have bought the media. The police and military are theirs and the intelligence agencies their private army. The Democrats are NOT the answer...though they are, generally, slightly the lesser of evils. I hope there is some change on Tuesday and then we can start to get rid of the Democrats and get a host of parties with some independance from the Oligarchs. If not we are soon to be lost and when sometime in the distant future the planet is visited by intelligent life from elsewhere - seeing the smoldering and polluted ruins of a once beautiful and noble planet will see what the greed, avarice, hate (of justice, democracy for other persons and contempt for all life) of a few had done. Persevere!
Just to tell you my own personal experience with Mack, as soon as I started posting on three forums he pelted me with email "correcting" my posts. I saw Wim's thread on Mack at his site so I was on guard. I asked Mack for evidence of his first allegation to me, was informed that I'd have to travel to the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas to see it, and that was all I needed to know. I've since received a few emails from him "correcting" my posts but I ignore them. He clearly patrols multiple forums for newbies that might be guillible.
It was also helpful to me to see Judith Baker's posts here. It saved me some time. So thanks. And John if you're with the CIA then I hope we have more infiltrators like you--who encourage us to think for ourselves and to be careful about who we trust. I wouldn't much trust anyone in forum of this type until they'd been around at least 6 months to a year. That would exclude me then.
Now that the McCone page is back on line: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmccone.htm, check out the picture of President Kennedy with Dulles, Bissell, and McCone. Great googely moogly, only one person to dilute the sinister. Shiver.
-
According to Lincoln, he said it in the White House on November 19, 1963.
Hm, then the President was likely thinking that he had to go to Tx to garner support what with Texan Johnson being booted from the '64 ticket.
Thanks again Ron.
-
"The people of this country don't have to be protected from the truth. This country was not built on the idea that a handful of nobles, whether located in our Federal agencies in Washington D.C., or in the news agencies in New York should decide what was good for the people to know, and what they should not know. This is a totalitarian concept which presumes that the leaders of our Federal government and the men in control of the powerful press media constitute a special elite which by virtue of their nobility and their brilliance, empower them to think for the people. Personally, I would rather put my confidence in the common sense of the people of this country.
The truth about the assassination of the President has been concealed from you long enough." --Jim Garrison, July 15, 1967
"Jim Garrison Responds"
"In this July 15th 1967 television interview Jim Garrison responds to a previous NBC show slandering him. The time was made available for him to reply to what was basically a character assassination. None of the charges against him were true."
http://www.prouty.org/garrison.html (audio)
http://www.wf.net/~biles/jfk/nbc.txt (transcript)
-
who is this?
Tosh Plumlee?
James
Sorry about the late reply. Yes, Tosh Plumlee.
Why was this picture declassified and released to Congressman Tom Downing staff investigators in 1974 before the HSCA was formed; and also later FOIA to Burnard Finisterwald Jr in 1981 with caption;
"Wm. 'Buck' Pearson, US Fourth Army Reserve Military Intelligence, Dallas Love Field, 1954" aka "William R. Plumlee RA-1838-xx-xx 156th Tank Bat 49th Armord Div, Dallas Love Field transfered to MI fourth Army. (CO Capt. Wm Cook, and Capt Edward G. Seiwell; reference; FBI document 105-xxxx-xxx-xx Cuban Nat Matters of 1959. In reference to picture date, 1954... age 17)
Does anyone have additional information on this? If so I would like to know about it.
DD-214's are documented backup for date of picture as well as various military UC operations in behalf of the United States Governmnet conducted through Dallas, Texas in the years 1955-64 Thanks.
Does it occure to anyone that military Intell might have uncovered illegal CIA operations of the time and was in process of shutting them down, covertly? We seem to speculate on every other possibility of why and how Kennedy was assassinated. Why dot this one? Or is it easier to just lump all us operatives military or otherwise as Assassins and let it go at that? Not all of us boys wanted Kennedy Dead... in spite of what some might think.
It's very hard to know the truth. Some of it's by design (e.g., Operation Mockingbird); some of it is because it's easier to lump all operatives together; some because us Americans are not very sophisticated about gov't misdeeds. Some Americans block it all out; some let too much in.
But people can evolve. President Kennedy evolved tremendously in three years.
Exploring the point about military intelligence, I'm not sure why military intelligence would need to uncover details of the CIA's involvement in Kennedy's assassination, if that's what's being suggested. I got the impression that military intelligence was actually involved in the events of Nov 22, '63:
"Q: Where were you on November 22, 1963?
A: I was observing the attempt on Kennedy's life. I was at Dealey Plaza on the South Knoll.
Q: Did you have occasion on that day to see John Roselli?
A: Yes, I did. I saw John Roselli. John Roselli was on board the flight coming out of Houston....The impression I was under at that time is we were flying a team into Dallas to abort the assassination and John Roselli was on board that flight as well as a couple of other Cubans and people that were connected with organized crime in New Orleans.
Q: Did this flight have any association with the CIA or do you know?
A: No, well, the CIA acted as support. Our flight was a military intelligence flight. How this flight originated was a few months prior to the Kennedy matter, there was a couple of Cubans that was CIA operations (Jim Wade) was to fire a bazooka on Castro in the Palace. That was aborted and then these same Cubans came back into Southern Florida, this was around the 15th/16th of November, and they were going to attempt to fire the bazooka on Air Force One which was parked at West Palm Beach at that particular time, November 17th, and as a result of that information coming out, that team, those Cubans, were picked up and from the interrogation of those Cubans that was the beginning of finding out about an attempt on Kennedy's life.
Q: On the morning of November 22, 1963, did the flight that arrived in Garland, Texas, just outside of Dallas, have anything to do with the CIA?
A: The CIA was....yes it did, the CIA was our support people. We were military intelligence. The CIA was running support and coordinating certain flights, making different arrangements, or necessary arrangements, for us."
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/TOSHTRANS1.htm
Again, President Kennedy seems frozen to me and doesn't appear to be clutching his throat.
If you watch a clear, slow-motion version of the Z film you'll see that JFK is convulsing, his body is almost roiling in a wave, like a massive gag reflex.
I really can't see any movement starting a moment after the President emerges from behind the freeway sign. He just looks frozen to me. And I don't think his arms/hands are clutching at throat. I think they're frozen in that bizarre position:
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/film/Zapruderstable.mov
Back to the paralyzing agent that was supposedly available to the CIA for use with flechettes, is there any evidence that it would make muscles spasm or constrict immediately prior to the paralysis?
-
Is there a consensus on why Tippit was killed and if it was planned in advance?
Some possible reasons:
-Because he was one of the shooters in Dealey Plaza and was eliminated soon after so he wouldn't talk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Tippit, I am satisfied, was up to his neck in the conspiracy to kill President Kennedy. A Bircher, a marksman and a member of the police force which almost openly connived at the ambush in Dealey Plaza, he was most probably one of the actual snipers - and was quickly silenced for that very reason. And the description which Howard Brennan has given of the Man in the Window makes it a near-certainty, in my opinion, that Officer J. D. Tippit impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald at the deadliest part of the frame-up."
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtippet.htm
-So that there would be an excuse to kill Mr. Oswald, since killing a police officer is obviously a big offense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The murder of a police officer would also show that the patsy was on a killing spree and was a public menace.
-To have spare body parts for the cover-up.
----------------------------------------------------------
It's clear that the body evidence was tampered with. The x-rays were not of President Kennedy's brain. David Lifton's theory is that the tampering was done with the body, not with the x-rays and photos. It's not the president's brain that was x-rayed and is missing from the national archive. Is it Tippit's brain?
"The second brain examination, evidently of a brain not the President's, was conducted in order to create a record of a brain specimen that was consistent with the official story that President Kennedy had been shot from behind."
http://www.assassinationscience.com/george.html
"a number of ominous documents and depositions were released over the ARRB's (Assassination Records Review Board) tenure. According to an electronic correspondence between ARRB's Doug Horne and assassination researcher Dr. David Mantik, they include but are not limited to:
...
3) The sworn testimony of JFK autopsy photographer John Stringer to the ARRB in the summer of 1996 conclusively proved that the photographs of "a brain" in the JFK Collection in the Archives could not be the photographs he shot at a post-autopsy supplemental brain exam----essentially proving that the brain photos in the archives are not of President Kennedy's brain, but rather some other brain.
4) The sworn testimony of former FBI agent Frank O'Neill to the ARRB in September of 1997 indicated that the brain photos in the Archives could not be Kennedy's brain because at autopsy, JFK's brain "was over half gone.""
http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/chapter2.htm
-Some or all of the above?
----------------------------------
-Another reason?
-----------------------
On edit: Fixed a typo--"tapered" to "tampered"
-
Evelyn Lincoln said that JFK told her informally that he was thinking about Governor Terry Sanford for the ticket, but "it will not be Lyndon" (Kennedy and Johnson, p. 205). It was not dictation.
Ok, thank you Ron. Do you know when and where he said that? Was it in Texas?
I frequently read that the President's debate with LBJ about car seating for Connelly and Youngblood was loud and explosive. Does anyone know of a good source for that?
Obviously if it occured and was during the Texas trip then it indicates that Johnson had no concerns about being included on the Kennedy ticket for the next election, also for obvious reasons.
-
>However, we have the disturbing Siebert-Oneil receipt which says "a MISSILE was removed from the body".
>Hmmmmmm.
>Jack
Well I thought it was noteworthy too until I read a few more chapters in Best Evidence. Sibert and O'Neill seem to consistently refer to bullets as "missiles." For example, in reference to the bullet wound in the President's back: "Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger." --Best Evidence, pg 105, hardcover
Still looking for some evidence of a flechette 'cause I still think it's a strong possibility. Again, President Kennedy seems frozen to me and doesn't appear to be clutching his throat.
-
According to many websites President Kennedy's last dictated words to his secretary Evelyn Lincoln were "Johnson will not be on the ticket."
Here's one:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...ficial%26sa%3DG
Does anyone know if there are reliable sources for this assertion?
I haven't found the quote in old Johnson threads here, tho' I may have missed it. There is good discussion on the general subject of Johnson's, er, character, and powerful backers and determination to be king:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=Johnson+ticket
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=Johnson+ticket
-
This has nothing to do with the death of JFK. However, it tells us a great deal about the process of dying.
Mark Romanek was so deeply affected by Johnny Cash's version of Trent Reznor's "Hurt", he offered to shoot the video for free. Upon doing so, he sent the video to Trent Reznor. Reznor was in session with Zach de la Rocha (of Rage Against the Machine fame) at the time, and they were reportedly so awestruck emotionally that they had to leave the room and recuperate, Reznor himself being moved to tears. The video itself features footage of a decrepit Cash at the flood-ravaged House of Cash Museum interspersed with footage from Cash's personal collection of himself in his youth.
Mark Romanek is also the director of the very good film, One Hour Photo.
Click the link below to see this masterpiece of a video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2498982473010416253
Thank you John. This is easily the most touching music video I've ever seen.
It retains its power no matter how many times I watch it.
-
How the Failure To Identify, Prosecute and Convict President Kennedy's Assassins Has Led To Today's Crisis Of Democracy
by Joan Mellen, author of 'A Farewll to Justice'
Lecture Delivered at the Ethical Culture Society, New York City, January 24, 2006
>...
Excellent article William; thank you for posting it.
I especially appreciate the ties between JFK/Bush and 911/Bush, for the continuity impaired.
I wonder what Mellen's source was for the claims about Bobby Kennedy and why he wouldn't allow investigations of his brother's murder. It's certainly consistent with "Ultimate Sacrifice" in describing how Bobby was working towards Castro's overthrow and had close associations with some Cuban exiles. Though I think Ultimate Sacrifice goes too far in denying CIA leadership in the assassination and saying the mob dunnit. I'm not at all sure I totally buy the idea that Bobby was essentially framed by the CIA in advance so his knowledge of Oswald's proximity to the murder would be exposed if he exposed the real killers. But it's possible. I just wonder if Mellen used Ultimate Sacrifice or if she has a second source.
I wouldn't rule out fear for his family as a deterrent to investigation. But that really wouldn't explain his supposed active interference with Garrison's investigation.
Joan Mellen did NOT use Ultimate Sacrifice for anything! She has her sources. Read her book. She has new information that also supports her old to be in another book she is working on.
Thank you Peter. Very good to know. Yet another book to read then.
-
How the Failure To Identify, Prosecute and Convict President Kennedy's Assassins Has Led To Today's Crisis Of Democracy
by Joan Mellen, author of 'A Farewll to Justice'
Lecture Delivered at the Ethical Culture Society, New York City, January 24, 2006
>...
Excellent article William; thank you for posting it.
I especially appreciate the ties between JFK/Bush and 911/Bush, for the continuity impaired.
I wonder what Mellen's source was for the claims about Bobby Kennedy and why he wouldn't allow investigations of his brother's murder. It's certainly consistent with "Ultimate Sacrifice" in describing how Bobby was working towards Castro's overthrow and had close associations with some Cuban exiles. Though I think Ultimate Sacrifice goes too far in denying CIA leadership in the assassination and saying the mob dunnit. I'm not at all sure I totally buy the idea that Bobby was essentially framed by the CIA in advance so his knowledge of Oswald's proximity to the murder would be exposed if he exposed the real killers. But it's possible. I just wonder if Mellen used Ultimate Sacrifice or if she has a second source.
I wouldn't rule out fear for his family as a deterrent to investigation. But that really wouldn't explain his supposed active interference with Garrison's investigation.
-
The raised umbrella.
Jack
______________________________
Thanks for posting the photo, Jack.
A question for all of the amateur and professional photo analysts out there: Is the umbrella blurry in the photo because TUM is raising it, lowering it, pumping it up and down, turning it, a combination of two of these, or as a result of camera movement or (Heaven forbid) something else? IMO, TUM's right hand, holding the umbrella, looks blurry. Comments please?
--Thomas
______________________________
Thanks for requesting the photo Thomas, and thanks to everyone for posting it. I'm glad you asked for clarification about the blur; I don't see how it's possible without further evidence to conclude that the umbrella is being lifted and lowered. Again, DCM (Orlando Bosch?) fullfilled the signalling function.
And that is an interesting point about the seeming lack of blood from the neck "puncture" (as Dr Malcolm Perry called it). Perhaps that part of the neck (aside from the huge carotid artery and jugular vein) is not that vascular. Or maybe the photos are too far away to see a trickle of blood. And the head wound was so conspicuous, and a tracheotomy so quickly obliterated it, that blood wasn't conspicuous. Not very convincing theories I admit.
But the thing I find most compelling is that the President seems frozen. Has anyone else studied his arms and concluded, like I have, that he is not groping his neck?
-
Also worth investigation on this thread is the CIA's Congress for Cultural Freedom.
This group was a pioneer in left-gatekeeping, and employed many of the media strategies that, taken collectively, constitute the main reason that a galvanized and articulate opposition to to the radical right
Bush agenda has failed to materialize in the U.S.
I agree fully with the stated purpose of this thread.
I think any political discussion that is not centered on media and disinformation theory at this stage of the
game is a diversionary tactic. This would include the manipulative electoral analysis served up in all of the
corporate media right now. The media ARE the elections.
Wellllll, the media and Diebold ARE the elections. Otherwise I agree with everything you say. (Oh, and ES&S.)
Propaganda is certainly my primary area of interest, in general, and in the case of President Kennedy's murder. Especially given that Americans think they have a free press. Good lord. They still think that after decades of propaganda. The bogus "media" has to be exposed in order to change things.
Thanks for the info Nathaniel; I hadn't heard of the CCF.
On edit: Adding info on CCF.
"In December, 2005, the Washington Times published a commentary by Paul Greenberg[2], in which Greenberg praises the propaganda activity of the CCF and equates it with the recent activities of the Bush administration, where government money was used to purchase the services of Iraqi and American journalists and editors, in order to publish stories favorable to the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Greenberg freely admits that the CCF was funded through CIA fronts, and singles out for praise the role of Professor Sidney Hook, who founded the U.S. predecessor to the CCF, Americans for Intellectual Freedom. Greenberg also notes that at the founding conference of the CCF in Berlin, the honorary chairmen included John Dewey, Bertrand Russell, Benedetto Croce, Karl Jaspers and Jacques Maritain."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_for_Cultural_Freedom
(Not that the Washington moonie Times is the best source, but it's an interesting alleged tie in to the current regime.)
"Origins of the Congress for Cultural Freedom, 1949-50
Give me a hundred million dollars and a thousand dedicated people, and I will guarantee to generate such a wave of democratic unrest among the masses--yes, even among the soldiers--of Stalin's own empire, that all his problems for a long period of time to come will be internal. I can find the people.
Sidney Hook, 1949"
-
Dearest Thomas,
Apparently you're not kidding, which is a shame 'cause your post was sorta funny. Actually, very funny.
So given your lack of interest in posts that don't focus on splatting brains, I'll respectully (not) suggest that you skip past them. But don't even try to tell me what to post and what not to post. If they're against board rules then the moderator can tell me. Otherwise, I'll do as I please. In fact I may just feel a lyric frenzy coming on...
Or even better... a nice "feel good" "fuzzy-wuzzy" "philosophical" life-affirming quote (or two):
I look forward to an America which will not be afraid
of grace and beauty.
JFK 10/26/63
We must never forget that art is not a form of propaganda;
it is a form of truth.
JFK 10/26/63
Ok, I'm gonna go to ebay and see if I can find pink doilies with JFK's initials sewn lovingly into them. I'll keep you posted!
____________________________________________
Dearest Ms. Bronstein,
The cockles of my heart are all a-flutter with sympathy for you.
"All again now children, "Kumbaya my Lord, ...".
And now for my all-time favorite:
"Ninety-eight bottles of beer on the wall; Ninety-eight bottles of beer; Take one down and pass it around; Ninety-seven bottles of beer on the wall..."
Yours, Thomas
P.S. Dearest Ms. Bronstein,
Did I tell you what to post and/or what not to post?
____________________________________________
Yes yes you're very macho.
I'll bet you cried your eyes out at Bambi.
-
As an editorial aside, if the only point in having the team of UM and DCM there was to supply a signal (presumuably on the President's condition) then I don't see why UM was needed. All they needed was DCM with his raised fist. So UM must have been doing something besides signaling.
_________________________________
Myra,
Good point. But TUM's umbrella can be seen turning in the direction of JFK's limo in the Z-film, as if TUM was "tracking" JFK (IMHO in case a second flechette shot was necessary). Why was TUM wildly pumping the umbrella up and down just a few moments earlier? Answer: Maybe he was both a signaler and a "shooter."
--Thomas
_________________________________
Oh the umbrella definitely rotates in the direction the limo is moving. It could be that UM is rotating as he watches the motorcade, but I think it's more likely that he'd just turn his head and not his whole body.
Thomas, where do you see UM pumping the umbrella up and down? I can't see that on Zapruder. The first I see of the umbrella is after the limo emerges from behind the highway sign, and it rotates with the cars.
Thanks.
________________________
Myra,
Try Googling "umbrella up and down as if signaling." It will take you to Ron Ecker's excellent article on TUM. Remember to click on "cached."
--Thomas
_______________________
Well that's just text describing the umbrella movement, no photos or film. I would need to see some actual evidence that the umbrella was raised and lowered.
I did however find this:
"November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy was slain, was bright and sunny in Dallas. Why, then, was there a young man with an open umbrella on Elm Street, less than 30 feet from the President's car as it slowly passed by? Presented below is an answer to this puzzle by a former consultant to the House Select Committee on Assassinations. " http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/TUM.html
Though the language ("as it passed by") is vague. It could be that UM had to shoot a flechette a longer distance, then the car moved as close as 30 feet.
-
Please let me have names of people who should be featured in this section of my website.
Here are some possibilities for propaganda and disinformation names:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-George Orwell (for obvious reasons)
-Machiavelli (The Prince)
-Edward L. Bernays (the father of public relations according to Wiki)
-Ivy Ledbetter Lee (founder of modern PR per Wiki)
-Joseph Goebbels (Hitler's propaganda minister)
-Hermann Goering (Hitler's 2nd in command), Nuremberg trials quotes:
"Of course the people don't want war...it's always a simple matter to drag the people along...
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-David Atlee Phillips (CIA propaganda specialist)
-E. Howard Hunt (Bay of Pigs propaganda honcho)
-Frank Church (for investigating Operatio Mockingbird)
-Many Operation Mockingbird people:
* CBS (William S. Paley)
* Chattanooga Times (Charles Bartlett)
* Christian Science Monitor (Joseph Harrison)
* Copley News Services (James Copley)
* Louisville Courier-Journal (Barry Bingham, Sr.)
* The Miami News (William C. Baggs, Herb Gold, Hal Hendrix)
* Newsweek (Ben Bradlee)
* New York Herald Tribune (Stewart Alsop)
* New York Times (Arthur Hays Sulzberger)
* Time Magazine (Alfred Friendly, Charles Douglas Jackson, Henry Luce)
* Washington Post (Walter Pincus)
* Washington Star (Jerry O'Leary)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird)
*Walter Cronkite (the most trusted man in america)
-Jack Valenti (Agency was in charge of the press during the November 1963 visit of President John F.
Kennedy and Vice-President Lyndon Johnson to Dallas, Texas. Following the assassination of President
Kennedy, Valenti was present in the famous photograph of Lyndon Johnson's swearing in aboard Air Force
One. He then became the first "special assistant" to Lyndon Johnson's White House. Valenti was so loyal to
Lyndon Johnson, that it was once said of him "If LBJ dropped the H-bomb, Valenti would call it an urban
renewal project." Per Wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Valente)
-Karl Rove (for obvious reasons)
-Hill & Knowlton (PR firm who prepped the US for first Iraq invasion with infamous incubator baby lie)
-John McAdams (for obvious reasons)
-Ken Rahn (who you mentioned but I don't know)
-George Lakoff (expert on "framing")
-Everyone at Fox news, including:
*Bill O'Reilly (Fox thug)
*Joe Scarborough (Fox thug)
-Stephen Colbert (the parody O'Reilly)
-Rush Limbagh (and other right wing yappers)
-Pat Robertson (propaganda cloaked as faith)
-Roger Ailes (who you mentioned, Faux "news"--Fairly Unbalanced)
-Rupert Murdoch (owner of Fox "news")
-David Mamet (co-wrote "Wag the Dog" movie parody of US event management propaganda)
-Noam Chomsky (MIT professor, co-author with Noam Chomsky of Manufacturing Consent)
-Edward S. Herman (media analyst and co-author with Noam Chomsky of "Manufacturing Consent")
-Gerald Posner (no introduction needed)
Misc Propaganda events in history:
----------------------------------------
-Radio Free Europe (radio station and CIA tool in Europe)
-Radio Liberty (radio station and CIA tool in Russia)
-Voice of America (radio station)
-Radio Moscow (Russian propaganda)
-Animal Farm (CIA secretly commissioned animated film adaptation in the 1950s)
-Iraq (whatever flavor of radio free europe media the US has set up there)
-Venezuela (the ongoing attacks against the democratically elected leader Hugo Chavez)
-Cold war/communist bashing (propaganda on both sides)
-Movie "Reefer Madness" (goofy anti-pot movie)
-
Dearest Thomas,
Apparently you're not kidding, which is a shame 'cause your post was sorta funny. Actually, very funny.
So given your lack of interest in posts that don't focus on splatting brains, I'll respectully (not) suggest that you skip past them. But don't even try to tell me what to post and what not to post. If they're against board rules then the moderator can tell me. Otherwise, I'll do as I please. In fact I may just feel a lyric frenzy coming on...
Or even better... a nice "feel good" "fuzzy-wuzzy" "philosophical" life-affirming quote (or two):
I look forward to an America which will not be afraid
of grace and beauty.
JFK 10/26/63
We must never forget that art is not a form of propaganda;
it is a form of truth.
JFK 10/26/63
Ok, I'm gonna go to ebay and see if I can find pink doilies with JFK's initials sewn lovingly into them. I'll keep you posted!
-
As an editorial aside, if the only point in having the team of UM and DCM there was to supply a signal (presumuably on the President's condition) then I don't see why UM was needed. All they needed was DCM with his raised fist. So UM must have been doing something besides signaling.
_________________________________
Myra,
Good point. But TUM's umbrella can be seen turning in the direction of JFK's limo in the Z-film, as if TUM was "tracking" JFK (IMHO in case a second flechette shot was necessary). Why was TUM wildly pumping the umbrella up and down just a few moments earlier? Answer: Maybe he was both a signaler and a "shooter."
--Thomas
_________________________________
Oh the umbrella definitely rotates in the direction the limo is moving. It could be that UM is rotating as he watches the motorcade, but I think it's more likely that he'd just turn his head and not his whole body.
Thomas, where do you see UM pumping the umbrella up and down? I can't see that on Zapruder. The first I see of the umbrella is after the limo emerges from behind the highway sign, and it rotates with the cars.
Thanks.
-
Myra...,You don't get it: Your post below (in red) was in respond to my previous reply to yours. ("I can't handle the truth") .., from the movie.... ("And I see dumb people all around",) is mine to you, .., also from a movie. Got It?
Kind of like "tit for tat" so to speak... However, even this you quoted the post and my intentions wrong. You got it all wrong... Just like your judgements about me and what I am; and what I stand for... So be it... Its your freedom to think what you want and to believe what you like about me. I am not responsible for your stupidy.
Why does this sound familiar?
Oh, yeah...
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled.
Jessep: You want answers?!
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth!
Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You?! You, Lieutenant Weinberg?! I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said, "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?
Jessep: I did the job I was sent to do--
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?!
Jessep: (shouting) You're goddamn right I did!!
(Practically word for word. Nathan R. Jessep.)
I totally got it William. I quoted a movie, then you paraphrased a movie. Ok. We're in synch there. And if nothing else we each have good taste in movies.
If you say I'm wrong about you then I would have to respect that. And I certainly don't know what you stand for; that's true.
-
Of course people here tend to know why they died young.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ddress=385x2005
Has anybody here seen my old friend Abraham?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
He freed a lot of people,
But it seems the good they die young.
You know, I just looked around and he's gone.
Anybody here seen my old friend John?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
He freed a lot of people,
But it seems the good they die young.
I just looked around and he's gone.
Anybody here seen my old friend Martin?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
He freed a lot of people,
But it seems the good they die young.
I just looked 'round and he's gone.
Didn't you love the things that they stood for?
Didn't they try to find some good for you and me?
And we'll be free
Some day soon, and it's a-gonna be one day ...
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walk up over the hill,
With Abraham, Martin and John.
-
I conclude that JFK was shot in the neck at about the point he disappears behind the sign.
COincidentally, the CIA had an umbrella that fired paralyzing darts.
But that doesn't mean that UMBRELLA MAN shot the dart into his neck, since
the aiming of the periscope sight would have been very difficult.
This is three different stories converging:
a) a man was conspicuous with an umbrella near the motorcade
b- Kennedy appears to have been shot in the neck and possibly paralyzed; and
c) it became public in the Senate Church Committee hearing that the CIA had umbrella guns........
Yes, also DCM certainly appeared to be UM's partner, seeming to signal something with his raised fist.
As an editorial aside, if the only point in having the team of UM and DCM there was to supply a signal (presumuably on the President's condition) then I don't see why UM was needed. All they needed was DCM with his raised fist. So UM must have been doing something besides signaling.
Gary Mack and the Sixth Floor Museum
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Myra Bronstein
Dupe.