Myra Bronstein

I had this email from a fellow JFK researcher this morning that included the following passage. "This is where I have to tell you that a researcher of some repute told me just two days ago that you are CIA."

The most interesting aspect of this is the phrase "a researcher of some repute". This is not the first time I have been told about this CIA smear. One friend actually named the person who told him I was a CIA disinformation agent. To my surprise he was a member of this forum who I consider to be one of the leading researchers into the JFK assassination. I imagine that most researchers would have believed the story if they heard it from him. The point is that I am convinced that this person is not CIA. He is also extremely intelligent, yet he appears to genuinely believe this story.

I suppose I should take it as a compliment that those opposed to the investigation into the JFK assassination have felt the need to smear me in this way. To be truthful, if I was in charge of Operation Mockingbird, I would launch a smear campaign against me. Not because of the quality of my work but because of the influence that I have on JFK research. I am talking about this forum and the high-ranking that my JFK website has achieved in the search-engines.

What I cannot understand is what these people who believe that I am a CIA agent consider what my motivation is?

I would be grateful if any other members of the forum have heard these CIA stories could post on this thread. I would be interested in hearing the names of the people who told them these stories (by email if you prefer not to embarrass the person concerned). I am particularly interested in what my CIA "motivation" is for creating my JFK website and running this forum.

The Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 imposes criminal penalties on those who have authorized access to classified information and intentionally disclose names of "covert agents." Those who do not have authorized access to classified information--- such as journalists,etc.---may be subject to penalties if they engage in a "pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents...with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States."

Pffft, too funny Richard.

Whew, did you have to look that rule up or do you have it committed to memory?

RFK denied access to the general public, but are you suggesting that he denied access to official investigators?

In an interview he gave on 3rd July, 1967, John J. McCloy said about the Warren Commission: “I think there’s one thing I would do over again. I would insist on those photographs and the X-rays having being produced before us.” During the investigation members of the Warren Commission were told by Earl Warren that the Kennedy family was blocking access to these photographs and X-rays.

John, has a member of the Kennedy family ever confirmed this to be true? I would be reluctant to take Earl Warren's word for it.

Soon after the assassination RFK told other members of the Kennedy family that he believed that senior members of the CIA organized his brother’s assassination. However, he was not willing to disclose this at that stage because he was being blackmailed.

Which member of the Kennedy family revealed this information?

This story will be explained in a book published next year.

John, who's the author?

I believe the Marilyn Monroe murder played a part in that.

Let's assume for a while that The Kennedy's and Giancana had a hand in that. Wouldn't that be a great trumph card to keep Bobby silent about his brother's death?

If it's true that both Kennedys were romantically involved with Monroe, they certainly had a motive to get rid of her if they feared she might go public. It would be hard to imagine a juicier scandal.

Ron and Wim,

I have trouble believing JFK and RFK would stoop to that.

I don't believe it for a second.

In fact I consider it to be one of the main components in the Kennedy smears. The subtext being that the Kennedy's murdered so it's ok that they were murdered. Don't worry your little heads John and Jane Q. Public; JFK and RFK aren't worth the angst.

Right.

This is excellent info Greg, thank you.

I don't know enough to have an opinion, but Garrison's book "On the Trail of the Assassins" makes a point of describing the foul smell from Ferrie's apartment due to the large number of mice he kept there for his cancer experiments. I don't have the book in front of me so I can't give the exact quote.

-MB

Myra, OTTOTA was the second book I read on the case (first was Conspiracy). I'm up to about number 9. Ferrie told 3 or 4 different stories about how he lost his hair. Cancer research was one of the reasons he gave.

Sorry I missed that the first time it was posted. Fascinating.

-JS

John,

Found this today, It shows that there was concern even back then that his cancer was "artificially induced." I haven't seen the report, but needless to say, the FBI would not have found any evidence of this.

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : [No From]

TO : [No To]

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 03/17/1967

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM.

SUBJECTS : RUBY, JACK; CANCER ARTIFICIALLY INDUCED.

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/04/1993

COMMENTS : Box 15. Section 89.

Also in NARA... confirmation that Eva had noticed he was seriously ill many weeks prior to his trip to Parkland.

Some newspaper reports from Dec '66 that I've just located tend to support what I wrote in the original piece.

From the Long Beach Press Telegram 12dec66:

Ruby... was taken to Parkland Hospital Friday night after being treated for a week by the County Health Officer for a congested, tight-feeling chest. The hospital said he had pneumonia.

----

A malignant tumor was discovered Saturday to have nearly consumed a lymph node in Ruby's neck. The doctors said this signified there were other cites and the cancer had advanced.

----

Whatever the results of this weeks tests [to find where the cancer originated], Dr Sanford said, "I do not expect he will be able to go to court" as early as February for a retrial...

The Nevada State Journal two days later reported...

Cancer has been found in the lining of Ruby's chest, in addition to the lymph node on his neck, where it was originally discovered. Both lungs are filled with suspicious looking nodules. The cancer spread to these areas; physicians are still looking for the place it started.

----

The right lung was collapsed by the pressure of four quarts of fluid that were in his chest cavity when he was taken Friday from the Dallas County jail...

----

Dr Barnett said it was impossible to tell how long Ruby had been suffering from cancer and declined even to speculate whether he may have had it when he killed Oswald.

My time is running out. I am breathing toward my last breath. I was set up and tried the minute I walked down that ramp. - Jack Ruby to reporters, 31mar65.

Woah, more great info, thanks again Greg. In general I don't totally trust anyone on this subject, and even the trustworthy people should be double/triple checked. But Garrison is as trustworthy as anyone can be IMO. Of course he only stated that Ferrie was doing experiments. Nothing about results.

I do want to learn more about the general subject of cancer experiments in mice. If researchers do such experimentation then it seems like they must have some way of inducing cancer in the animals. Do they transplant cancerous organs into them? Do they inject cells? Do they inject something else? Do they only get animals that already show signs of cancer?

As you can see, I could be a CIA disinformation agent. However, if I was, would I make a posting like this?

I just love that last line :-) because that's precisely what you would do...wouldn't you? .

As Huntley said through his actions "If I killed the girls, would I be helping you look for them?".

How about Morales "If I'd anything to do with RFK's murder, would I really be at the hotel?"

Michael Corleone "If I was going to have him killed, would I have agreed to be Godfather to his child?"

Double bluff or truth.

The coward does it with a kiss, the brave man with a sword.

It really is a judgement call and that's where the confidence man earns his corn.

Truth is John, I don't know you from Adam. I certainly don't know nearly enough to say yay or nay to your membership of the CIA. I'd be disappointed though not shocked if you were; disappointed because you have gained a certain amount of my respect and trust. Similarly I'd be contented and not surprised if you weren't.

Anyhow, I love reading your posts, and those of all the researchers gathered here, for whom I have the greatest respect. I then try to form my own opinions, irrespective of the messenger.

Kindest Regards

Gary

Yeah, that last line of John's is a red flag isn't it?

In fact the single biggest red flag to me is an attempt by anybody to tell me what to think of them, or of a third party:

I accept your point about researchers who disagree with your theories spreading rumours about you being CIA. I therefore would not be surprised if people I have clashed with me in the past like Tim Gratz, Tim Carroll, Ashton Gray, Wim Danbaar, Tom Purvis, etc. put it around that I was CIA. As a result of their past history, they would probably not be believed.

The point being that I'll decide for myself what I think of people. It's insulting and suspicious to be told what to think. If John is trying to boost his own credibility by naming names, then he failed with me 'cause I don't appreciate those tactics. They're heavy handed, and frankly kinda catty, in addition to being unprofessional.

Whether it's CIA strategy (which I don't believe) or just bad judgement, it's a negative.

Now, since I've "clashed" with John will I see my name in the next edition of "rogue's gallery"?

John,

Thomas Graves beat me to it. You must be running a "limited hangout." Or I should "unlimited." The CIA is using you and your forum to so expose them in the JFK assassination that they will finally have to admit that they did it. Devilishly clever. But why such a long, drawn-out process? Well, spooks never seem to do things the easy way. They like to analyze, compartmentalize, hypnotize, marginalize, terrorize, and when possible (as with their drug running) capitalize. In this case, I guess they just want to put off confessing as long as they can, hoping that by the time they confess, most people just won't care anymore. (But isn't that already the case?)

Ron

they may not kill them any more but they don't kill them any less either

Excellent Evan! That's the mother of all comebacks.

...

I am usually dismissive of this notion, but occassionally I think of Kenny Everetts "Round 'em up, put 'em in a field and bomb the bastards" skit as an analogy for the forum. :-)

...

That's my answer to John's question about possible motives for a CIAer to run such a forum. Actually John himself said something like that recently. This forum is a way for the CIA to get *real names* of people who research this topic, and track the progress of those people, and probably mess with them eventually. And if a researcher gains prominence the CIA would no doubt be ready with background checks done and smears ready to deploy. (If you ever stole a quarter from your mother's purse as a kid, the world will know.) In fact that's why I objected in another thread to the use of real names; it makes people vulnerable to this very thing. In that way the forum is no doubt a valuable CIA database.

However, I also understand the value of using real names, and Lancer has the same requirement. It's a trade off. And the value of coming here for information, IMO, outweighs the risks because the CIA does so much info bombing to overwhelm and confuse us, and this forum saves a lot of time we'd otherwise spend sifting thru all the garbage for the gold.

Anyway, that's my answer to the question. This forum "outs" researchers. The CIAers of course remain the shadowy anonymous self-serving cowards they've always been.

The fact that certain "agencies" would use paranoia as a tool of control should come as no surprise to most members, it has a long history as a ruling class method of internal disruption, with false flag terrorism its outward manifestation. This is a sure sign that this Forum is getting just a little bit to close to certain unpalitable truths for some peoples palates, and a sign that we should ignore all attempts to distract us. CARRY ON RESEARCHING.

Yup, "Divide and Conquer." Works like a champ. Anyone ever see the movie "Matewan"? It's about West Virginia coal companies versus miners trying to form a union. The whole plot is about the company's divide and conquer tactics.

I can't say if they worked 'cause that would be a spoiler. I will say that the movie depicts a true historical episode accurately.

Evan Marshall Posted Yesterday, 07:45 PM

QUOTE(James Richards @ Jul 15 2004, 03:56 AM)

Jack,

The other thing about that list of possible participants is that there is barely a degree of separation between them all. If Morales is handed the operational duties for the assassination, he would be wise to employ cutouts. Men he knows and who can deliver the teams to get the job done. Men like John Roselli, Bernardo De Torres, John Adrian O'Hare (Col Bishop to his friends), maybe John Martino, maybe Eddie Perez.

I would love to know the intimate details and nuances in the relationship between the two Davids, Phillips and Morales. I think a lot of the questions we all have could be answered right there.

James

two tours in Detroit Homicide taught me the why would tell you the who. I doubt any of us have ever heard of the actual shooters and they were probably back in Vietnam, dead, or on another continent within hrs. Was the Agency involved at some level? probably, but people need to understand the people on the sharp end of the stick were relatively unimportant. they were there because they could shoot not because they could have been arrested by happenstance and tracked back to CIA.

having worked some admitedly less complicated murder conspirarcy cases, I've found the shooters are one of the least important links in the chain.

Mr. Marshall,

I would agree with your position that shooters are less important, but wouldn't you say that it is nevertheless important that the shooters/triggermen be tried and convicted as well? Although we'd all prefer to see the plotters tried and convicted, if we had to choose.

Perhaps finding out the identities of one group will lead us to the other, no?

I think they're a distraction. Interchangable hired goons. It's interesting to ponder internally, but it's much more important to present the planners to people externally.

Im fairly new around here, 17 years old, have a great interest in the case. I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. There are alot of bright people here who have investigated the case alot longer than I have, that is why I would like your opinion.

IMO, Files was on the grassy knoll.

2-3 people (not Oswald) were in the TSBD. I have heard a description of a short, heavy set, dark skinned man. Anyone fit that profile?

Roselli and Nicoletti in Dal Tex.

Someone shot from the south knoll IMO, the throat shot.

Alot of names have floated around about being possible shooters, Harrelson, Wallace, Martino, Giancana, Lawrence, White, etc.

If you have proof that in your opinion puts somwhere or something in a location, please post it.

Thanks!

Drew

- TSBD - multiple shooters, including decoy shooter. Mac Wallace as potential shooter. Fingerprint analysis, Loy Factor account, etc. Oswald as piss-poorly set-up Patsy. What went wrong?

- DalTex - 2nd floor window, possibly Nestor Izquierdo as spotter. Shooter as a white male - Saul Sague? As per MacDonald, spotter as per Gerry Hemming. Broom closet rented as storage possibly by Jennifer Juniors.

- Top of Underpass - Cuban, at storm drain. Used sewers as escape route. 16" diameter pipes replaced originals during construction some point after 1963.

- Behind picketfence, near corner, maybe a Corsican - possible Paul Mondolini. Seen by Ed Hoffman, possible by Lee Bowers as well. Could also have been Military sniper. Delivered fatal headshot.

- On stairs at Elm, under Texas Live Oak, Cuban - Possible patsy. Maybe Luis Posada.

North Peristyle, unclear.

No south knoll shooter.

No 'flachette' from umbrellas, pens or cigars.

No James Files - at least, not as a shooter.

No shot through windshield to throat.

Minimum 2 shots to Kennedy's head, if not three.

Evan - can you expand? This is very intriguing. What exactly would have compelled the cover-up?

worked with a guy while a contract trainer for the Feds-he was retired Agency and while not involved in JMWave he said there were alot of people who honestly thought they were working for the agency who in fact worked for the Mob in Miami.

again, I thik the why will id the who-worked two Mafia hits and while we never id'd the trigger men we were able to id the sponsor's though no one would testify against them.

I worry that the folks who did this keep sending us off to chase our own tails. I just don't think the Mob had the horsepower to control the investigations and the AGENCY AS A WHOLE was not involved though remember people are routinely "sheep dipped" and people like Harry Holmes continue to intrigue me.

- lee

Mac Wallace??? Wasn't he kind of a... xxxx up? He bungled the job on Henry Marshall horribly. Tried to set it up as a carbon monixide suicide but left a gash in Marshall's head, turned off the truck after the "suicide" and shot the victim 5 times with a bolt action rifle. He might have killed a lot of people for Johnson in Texas but I don't think he'd be trusted with anything of national scope.

I am told the following were involved:

TSBD:

Herminio Diaz Garcia (shooter)

Tony Cuesta (spotter)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgarciaH.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcuesto.htm

DAL-TEX:

Virgilio Gonzalez (shooter)

Eugenio Martinez (spotter)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgonzalezV.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmartinez.htm

ELM STREET:

Felipe Vidal Santiago (Cuban Man)

Roy Hargraves (The Umbrella Man)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsantiago.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhargraves.htm

BEHIND FENCE:

Steve Wilson (shooter)

Dick Whatley (spotter)

Ed Collins (radio)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwilsonS.htm

CORNER OF MAIN AND HOUSTON

Gerry Hemming

Rip Robertson

David Morales

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhemming.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKrobertsonW.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm

I think this site makes a compelling case that it was Orlando Bosch working with Hargraves.

http://www.copweb.be/Orlando%20Bosch%20Avila.htm

If, that is, their "corrected" photo really eliminated distortion that made DCM look so much like Santiago.

Also, where does that leave Roselli? It seems like enough sources place him in DP that day. Dunno how reliable the sources are of course.

The CIA had been infiltrated by KGB officers.

Well, ayup. And vice-versa. Since the two agencies worked for the same international commercial interests, it wasn't terribly difficult to exchange personnel and information.

Ashton Gray

Ashton takes down his rifle, draws a bead, and scores a bullseye. As Ginsburg said.

"The CIA, and the KGB keep each others secrets."

"One mind, brute force, and full of money"

HADDA BEEN PLAYING ON A JUKEBOX...

Well this is new to me. Did the CIA and KGB merely cooperate or actually work together? Did they do foreign exchange student kinda swaps?

I guess I'm confused about the statement that "the two agencies worked for the same international commercial interests." Why would rich capitalists tolerate a communist form of gov't? Isn't that bad for business?

...So, it's a complex picture but I place great faith in the positive IDs from Bradley Ayers, Ed Lopez and Wayne Smith, all independent of CIA, with no vested interest. David Rabern is also important in connecting Morales and Campbell on the night....

Shane, thank you for posting the additional material, and for focusing on the subject of RFK's murder.

Question: Have you considered using an independent facial recognition expert to compare known photos of the three CIA guys with pictures of the three in the Ambassador?

"Please also keep in mind that the CIA does not operate on domestic soil---our mission is focused abroad only."

That's a howler.

So, has it ever been "legal" for the CIA to operate on domestic soil?

That's correct Pat, it was removed after consultation with Noel Twyman who had granted

permission for use in the first edition. Long time readers of this forum may recall

the probable cause but I'm not going to comment further in a public venue.

-- Larry

Look forward to reading the interview with Hargraves in Larry's book. I have just ordered it ad really can't wait to get it as I missed the first edition.

I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Larry had to cut the Hargraves interview for the second edition.

Was anything else cut from the second edition Larry?

JFK Assassination Special IV

From the coastocoastam radio show of Nov. 22, 2006

In a special 4-hour program, various guests individually presented information and conclusions about the conspiratorial aspects of the JFK assassination. In the first hour, Paul Groody, the mortician in charge of Lee Harvey Oswald's burial, and the exhumation of his body in 1981, presented details about a possible second 'Oswald.' In November 1963, he said he removed the top of Oswald's skull as part of the postmortem procedure-- yet the exhumed body's skull showed no markings or damage. View material we received from Groody. [see link at end of article]

Author Jim Marrs noted that a paraffin test on Oswald showed that he didn't have gunpowder residue, as a person would that had fired a rifle, and that voice stress analysis of his statement "I'm just a patsy," suggested he was telling the truth. The problem, said Marrs, is that Oswald never got a fair trial. Kennedy, he said, may have become a target because he authorized the printing of money through the Treasury (which was interest free) instead of using the Federal Reserve.

Researcher Lamar Waldron updated his work with new details from FBI files concerning mob lawyer Morris

Shenker and the confession of one of Shenker's clients. Three Mafia bosses organized the killing of JFK, Waldron reported, ...

Of course he reported that. And he doesn't answer logical questions. Which relates to this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8625

They're all on message.

Ah good ol' Blakey. Once the CIA got rid of Sprague the investigation was over. They just had to replace the discredited LN story with the new quasi-official mob dunnit story and Blakey did the rest. Good ol' Blakey. He's always right on message.

Funny how any theory of CIA culpability is an "agenda." All the language is so manipulative. Ugh.

I was channel surfing for over an hour, and I saw not one mention of the anniversary of the assassination on any of the major news channels. Not on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, or the local news channels. That is really surprising, because the mainstream news outlets have always managed to provide the most insightful and stimulating information in the past..............NOT!

Here in the UK on the Sky news digital/cable channel it shows the live CBS evening news for about half an hour here overnights sometimes and last night it did make a mention of the assassination, only very briefly. The newsreader (a blonde lady, Katie/Katy something, didn't catch the surname) mentioned it was the 43rd anniversary and thye showed JFK's grave with the eternal flame bu that was it. Only lasted about a minute though.

I caught no mention over here on any of the channels so I decided to make my own mention on my local radio station. They have a talk show where the last half hour the presenter take unscreened calls straight to air and so you can get on for a few mins with whatever you want usually. He kind of knows me so he let me talk quite a while so I also mentioned the story about British radio DJ John Peel blagging his way into Oswald's press conference which I still find quite amazing.

Francesca, where could I find details of that episode--"about British radio DJ John Peel blagging his way into Oswald's press conference"? Is it on another thread here?

From alternative ruby timeline

The number one cause of lung cancer is cigarette smoking, representing 85 to 90 percent of all cases. Other causes include exposure to radon, asbestos, nickel, chloromethyl ether, chromium, beryllium and arsenic (a by-product of copper), as well as exposure to passive smoke or "second-hand" smoke. A person is "at risk" of developing lung cancer if they: smoke; are over the age of 50; work in industries where substances such as asbestos, nickel, chloromethyl ether, chromium, beryllium or arsenic are used; have or have had a lung disease; have a family history of lung cancer; are former smokers; have been exposed to second-hand smoke over many years or; have been exposed to radon. (Tenet Health Care Corporation Library) As a non-smoker, Ruby’s only risk factors would, on the surface, appear to be his age, and long-term exposure to second-hand smoke. In jail, Ruby reported to one of his psychiatrists, Dr Manfred Guttmacher, that he had been to see Dr Ulevich on November 11, 1963 due to a bronchial cough. Dr Ulevitch took x-rays, but Ruby had been too busy to get the results. He believed he had "walking pneumonia". (DPD JFK files) The previously mentioned, Dr Walter Bromberg, stated in his report that Ruby had felt he suffered pneumonia on and off for a number of years. (DPD JFK files) It was a diagnosis of pneumonia, as we have seen, which resulted in Ruby being sent to Parkland Hospital. "Walking pneumonia" is caused by mycoplasma – the smallest free-living organism known to man. One of the characteristics of these tiny organisms is their ability to completely mimic or copy the protein of the host cell which can cause the immune system to attack the body’s own cells; an event that happens in all auto-immune diseases. First isolated in humans in 1932, it was not until the 1950s that one strain was identified as the cause of atypical ("walking") pneumonia. (Web Article: Mycoplasmas - Stealth Pathogens). Before death, Ruby’s cancer had spread to both his liver and his brain. This tends to rule out second-hand smoke as the culprit because although small cell lung cancer is the type that spreads quickly to other organs, it is most often found in people who are themselves heavy smokers. (Rhodes Island Cancer Council). What we are left with then, is some other carcinogen as the probable cause. Beryllium is one logical answer given beryllium dust shuts down the immune system, allowing the lungs to be damaged, and tumors to form and spread to other organs. It also creates ideal conditions for mycoplasma to thrive. (The Unified Health Physics Modelling Scientific Report). It is not a stretch to suggest that Ruby may have first come into contact with beryllium whilst in the Army Air Force and stationed at Farmingdale where the F-12 was being built, since this heavy metal is much used in the aviation and space industries. His association with the National Research Corporation through John C Jackson provides a second possibility for beryllium exposure to have occurred. The NRC was named in a May 25, 2001 report issued by the US General Accounting Office as being one of the locations where beryllium was used or detected. The evidence however, points only to low grade exposure in the 1950‘s (and possibly back to the 1940‘s), causing atypical recurring pneumonia, and a weakened immune system rather than cancerous tumors (which would have required a higher exposure): nothing lethal if he kept fit and otherwise healthy. That Ruby was a health and fitness fanatic indicates he may have had some knowledge of his exposure. So what did happened to trigger his cancer ? Alan Adelson tells us in "The Ruby Oswald Affair" that Jack’s sister, Eva Grant, first noticed Jack’s illness as early as June, 1966 , and that by September, he was throwing up every day. If his illness was evident in June 1966, then it is feasible that the onset of cancer coincided with Dr Jolyon West’s visit in April, 1964 to administer hypnosis and drugs (refer to note 10). This was the month after the trial ended, and when appeals would be in full swing. It is unfortunately common for such a period of time to pass between onset and when symptoms become manifest. In this case, it took another 7 months after the onset of symptoms before a diagnosis of lung cancer was made. It is possible, but unlikely, that Ruby had the cancer prior to the assassination. This is because of the x rays Dr Ulevitch took of Ruby’s chest on November 11. Though not fool proof, most lung cancer patients show an abnormal x ray. (Cancerline UK). It is widely known that Ruby believed injections he was being given, were cancer cells. He truly believed he was being murdered in this most unusual manner. And why would he not be paranoid about such a possibility since in January 1964, it was widely reported that elderly patients at the Jewish Chronic Disease Hospital in Brooklyn had been injected with live cancer cells as part of an experiment conducted by two eminent physicians from Sloan-Kettering? A court battle over the records of patients involved kept the story bubbling until at least 1966. Deputy sheriff Al Maddox claimed to researchers in the 1980s that the doctor who gave Ruby the injections was from Chicago. Though not from Chicago, Alan Adelson said he had met with Dr Jolyon West in the Windy City to discuss the case. (Earl Ruby HSCA testimony) The last word however, probably should go to the Inspector General in reference to CIA medical experiments: "The risk of compromise of the program through correct diagnosis of an illness by an unwitting medical specialist is regularly considered and is stated to be a governing factor in the decision to conduct a given test. The Bureau officials also maintain close working relations with local police authorities which could be utilized to protect the activity in critical situations." (July 26, 1963 memo from JS Eamon to Director, CIA).

This is excellent info Greg, thank you.

I don't know enough to have an opinion, but Garrison's book "On the Trail of the Assassins" makes a point of describing the foul smell from Ferrie's apartment due to the large number of mice he kept there for his cancer experiments. I don't have the book in front of me so I can't give the exact quote.

Examination of ex-Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko, has suggested he was poisoned with some form of radioactive material. Is it possible that the same method was used to kill Jack Ruby?

Hm, well here's the description of Ruby's illness from John's site:

"And so Jack Ruby, on December 9, 1966, - exactly one day after he had learned that his new trial was going to be held in February or March 1967 at Wichita Falls, about 140 miles from Dallas - was stricken with a mysterious disease first diagnosed as a common cold, then as pneumonia and finally as generalized cancer.

For more than three years, with a death sentence hanging over his dead for most of the time, Ruby had been as fit as a fiddle in the custody of Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker. At no time before December 9, had the prison doctor who visited him regularly, detected any flaw in Ruby's splendid health. But now, with a new trial in prospect in a different place, death quickly overtook the man who knew perhaps more than any other living person (with the possible exception of David Ferrie, then still totally unknown to the public at large) about the real background to the assassination. He passed away in the morning of January 3, 1967 - and another inconvenient trial was happily averted."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKruby.htm

And a description of thallium poisoning:

"On New Year’s Day in 1988, Abdullah Ali, an Iraqi businessman who had been living in London for eight years, joined three compatriots for dinner at a restaurant called Cleopatra in Notting Hill. The next morning, he was taken ill with flu-like symptoms and was admitted to hospital. There his condition rapidly deteriorated — his hair fell out, he developed excruciating skin and joint pain, and paralysis and respiratory failure began to set in. Fifteen days later he was dead.

...

Early symptoms are similar to flu and gastroenteritis. This is followed by extreme band-like pain around the body, particularly in the feet and joints. The cause of death is usually heart or respiratory failure, as the nervous system collapses. It is an attractive tool for murder because it is soluble in water, colourless and virtually tasteless and odourless. A fatal dose can also be given in one go and the body is not good at excreting the toxin by itself."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2461655,00.html

Certainly seems possible. The cold/flu like symptoms Ruby supposedly suffered (if we can depend on accounts of his symptoms) are described in the thallium poisonings, but wouldn't seem to jibe with cancer. Ruby's death, after about three weeks, seems awfully fast for cancer but about right for thallium.

Good chart here for time range and symptoms:

http://www.portfolio.mvm.ed.ac.uk/studentw...p29/thaltox.htm

I will read more of your writings on the subject of Watergate.

If I may recommend a starting point, it would be these two posts:

The "Pentagon Papers" leak was a CIA op

And:

There was no "first break-in" at the Watergate

The second article contains links to five other related articles that I believe are crucial to an understanding of Watergate. As told there, it decidedly is not, though, a Robert Redford-Dustin Hoffman vehicle.

It's critical to establish what that was all about in order to turn on the light for 'Merkans in general.

Yes, ma'am. The ones you can get out from in front of "Survivor."

Ashton

Oh yeah. Here I am wondering about Ellsberg and all his contradictions, sorta like Hersh..., and he's the first thing you mention in the first link. Yeah, there were warning bells with him. Interesting too how outspoken he is nowdays. I saw him at the same event I saw Hersh at, and it seemed like Ellsberg was almost boasting about being on Nixon's "enemy list" and being targeted for "liquidation" and so on. I guess he thinks it gives him street cred. Well, I'm sorta curious about his current intentions, given that he does seem to be speaking some truth about the US plans for Iran (or is he?). Not that it can erase the fact that he's a mouthpiece.

On the upside, maybe that means I don't have to suffer thru a reading of the pentagon papers.

I'm reading thru the Watergate stuff now. Hugely helpful. Thanks for posting both links. I've only read a little, but it's sure looking like the CIA just decided to get rid of Nixon and set him up. If that's true I'm not sure why, tho' I've read some buzz about them not liking his financial policies or something. Well, maybe I'll find out. Gotta know the "why" or things don't click.

Hm, I wonder if the Hunt blackmail of Nixon was for real. And did the CIA really turn on Hunt. They killed his wife, unless the Hunts really were getting a divorce and Hunt was happy to be rid of her. At least Watergate is sorta satisfying to research 'cause, for once, it's an asshole that's the victim. Then again another asshole became prez in his place.

]

Thank you Dawn. I've just started reading Oglesby's stuff now that you kicked it to the surface. I was only looking in the Seminar section.

What's "SDS"?

Myra:

SDS stands for Students for a Democratic Society. Carl was its first national president. It was the student anti Viet Nam group. When they turned violent and became the Weathermen Carl, to his everlasting credit, left.

Dawn

Thanks very much Dawn. Wonder if the SDS was Operation CHAOSed. Wasn't that Johnson's baby? Friggen thug.

Ya they were definately inflitrated, in fact Carl believes that the violence was a result of this infiltration. Works all the time. The scum.

BTW, I checked on the seminars page and Tim Carroll's paper is still there. You just have to page thru to get it. I advanced it for you a couple of days ago.

Dawn

I saw the Carroll material you kicked up Dawn, thank you.

Hey, interesting that you mention SDS. I just read this:

"The voices the Kennedys symbolized are now squelched. Collier and Horowitz are intent on never letting the ghost of the sixties reappear. The poor, the weak, minorities, and the left’s intelligentsia must not be unsheathed again. (As Todd Gitlin notes in his book The Sixties, on occasion, the Kennedy administration actually had SDS members in the White House to discuss foreign policy issues.)"

http://www.copi.com/articles/probe/pr1197_jfk.html

Amazing. We could have had great leaders. 'Cept the CIA didn't want us to.

Myra:

I would not read anything by Collier and Horowitz. They are just pigs in my opinion. They did a book on the young Kennedy's in 1984 that was partially serialized in Playboy. They did a total number on Robert Kennedy's young son David. Horrible. He ended up dead in a hotal room in Miami on 4/25/84. Drug overdose, but I balme them. I stopped reading Playboy as a result.

No, the CIA never wanted anything good for this country. Crack dealers- (and worse)- that they are. Pond scum.

"Only in America"

Dawn

Well you and James DiEugenio seem to be in agreement Dawn. He named them in his article as an example of propagandists.

So they went after a young guy with problems who's father they murdered. Figures. CIA goons must be the most cowardly lowlifes ever. Thanks Mr. Truman for conjuring the CIA. Yup, thanks.

Hi James,

good job! Thanks for that, sure looks like him to me from the photo. The hairline and ear especially.

My next question is....who is he?

Anyone who you'd expect to be associated with the CIA or operations like this? (Francesca Akhtar)

Francesca,

Gran was one of the militant Cubans from Miami who mixed with all the usual suspects.

As an extension to this all, it should be remembered that Gerry Hemming puts himself at Sirhan's mother's house on the morning after the shooting. He recalls that Dick Hathcock was also there, the same Hatchcock who told about Loran Hall taking Hemming's rifle out of hock back in 1963.

In the Roy Hargraves interview published in Larry Hancock's book, he puts himself, Hemming and Lawrence Howard in Los Angeles at the time.

I guess another question is, did David Morales have an 'in' with the LAPD? A school friend of Morales', a man he remained close with over the years was Ruben Ortega who was the Phoenix Police Chief. I wonder if Ortega knew Thomas Reddin, LA Chief? Many years ago I asked Reddin about this but he never replied. He died in late 2004 so I guess we will never know.

James

Many thanks for the info James, you raise some interesting points re: possible connections with the LAPD. Something else occurs to me - if it was Morales in the ballroom, then perhaps he may be connected to the infamous polka dot dress woman who is also described as being of latin appearance and who in my opinion may also have been present in events in 63. This is pure speculation on my part and a big leap but it would make sense to me.

Look forward to reading the interview with Hargraves in Larry's book. I have just ordered it ad really can't wait to get it as I missed the first edition.

From what I've read the LAPD was very, er, cooperative with the CIA. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor in city selection for the crime. I believe that the "Special Unit Senator," which was supposedly tasked with solving the murder--in reality opposite, was comprised of two former LAPD cops who had left to work for the CIA, then were loaned back to the LAPD.

It was a blatant CIA op and cover-up. The LAPD couldn't have been more helpful every step of the way. Canceling the APB on the polka dot woman, blocking radio communication at critical times, badgering key witnesses out their statements, the usual.

One thing that's interesting about the footage of the night at the Ambassador that's on youtube, is that we get to see firsthand that adage about only hearing the truth once in fascism. People are being interviewed real time and are very emphatic and clear about points like:

-Sirhan was a few feet in front of Kennedy

-More shots were fired than Sirhan's gun would hold

You can see quite a bit of pre-scrubbed truth on that footage.

Well if I was hoping for more truthful accounts from other countries then this BBC BS doesn't bode well:

http://tinyurl.com/t7hjw

Party line, all the way.

I'm pleasantly surprised at the fact that so many from countries other than the US work so hard to tell the truth about President Kennedy's life and death.

In fact one question I have is why those in other countries care so much. Presumably one big reason is that the US impacts so many other countries. But it would be interesting to hear from... people who aren't me.

I'm especially curious about the amount of media attention, or general awareness, there is in other countries about the anniversary.

From what I've seen, there's almost none here.

Didn't see anything at websites: CNN, MSNBC, NY Times, Wash Post, Forth Worth Whatever.

But then there is breaking news about one turkey pardoning another turkey, so I suppose it's understandable...

There's something at the Dallas Morning News site:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...gs.32b654b.html

What have others found, either in the US or in other countries?

And I posted this at Lancer, but it's my new favorite, and esp. appropriate to this post, so I gotta include it:

Good Day Everyone....

Those of you who have been aboard the U.S.S. John F. Kennedy aircraft

carrier know that among many key areas where you walk there are

pictures, plaques, and words honoring and celebrating the life of

President KENNEDY.

There is a large concentration of such memorabilia located among the

two main crew galley areas. Within the galleys' perimeters the

memorabilia have been mounted on many mobile, free-standing, 6' high,

wall partitions that are the same blue color of his jet, "Air Force

One," SS-codenamed "Angel.'

With my job responsibilities and duties, I daily interacted with the

Commanding Officer of "Big John." The Captain's "in-port cabin" is

something that everyone who has a chance to see, should see, now that

the ship is home ported in Mayport, FL. Used primarily for

meetings/meals with the Captain's chain-of-command, and domestic and

foreign dignitaries and honored guests, his in-port cabin contains

four areas, one of which is a main living room area.

There were four items in the C.O.'s cabin that have always, vividly,

stood out in my memory.... Hanging on each of three adjoining living

room walls was a very large painting. Each of these colorful,

realistic paintings showed the daylight shoreline, buildings skyline,

and shipping docks of a coastal city (Boston?) circa 1700's, complete

with harbor anchored and embarking sailing ships. The paintings gave

the magnificent effect of your being on a similar ship, in that ocean

harbor, and you are looking out the back windows from the Captain's

cabin of such an American Revolutionary-era sailing ship.

The fourth item, the one that had a huge effect on me, and, I am

sure, many others through the decades, is an exact replica of

President KENNEDY's, White House oval-office, padded rocking chair

that was given by the KENNEDY family in 1967 when the ship was first

commissioned by CAROLINE. I cannot even begin to describe the

thoughts and feelings when sitting in that rocker.

Nestled among the many pictures, plaques, etc., for the men of the

U.S.S. Kennedy is a plaque of one of the President's speeches.... we

all call it the "Men of Courage" speech ....it simply reads:

"Of those whom much is given, much is required. And when at some

future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each of us,

recording whether in our brief span of service, we fulfilled our

responsibilities to the state, our success or failure, in whatever

office we hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions:

First, were we truly men of courage, with the courage to stand up to

one's enemies, and the courage to stand up, when necessary, to one's

associates, the courage to resist public pressure as well as private

greed?

Second, were we truly men of judgment, with perceptive judgment of

the future as well as the past, of our own mistakes as well as the

mistakes of others, with enough wisdom to know what we did not know,

and enough candor to admit it?

Third, were we truly men of integrity, men who never ran out on

either the principles in which we believed or the people who believed

in us, men whom neither financial gain nor political ambition could

ever divert from the fulfillment of our sacred trust?

Finally, were we truly men of dedication, with an honor mortgaged not

to a single individual or group, and compromised by no private

obligation or aim, but devoted solely to serving the public good and

the national interest?

Courage, judgment, integrity, dedication . . . these are the

qualities which, with God's help, this son of Massachusetts hopes

will characterize our government's conduct in the four stormy years

that lie ahead. Humbly I ask His help in this undertaking; but aware

that on earth His will is worked by men, I ask for your help and your

prayers as I embark on this new and solemn journey."

-President-elect JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY, 09JAN61, Massachusetts

....I swear, there are ultra-busy days on the ship where you will be

completely-motivated, and dashing somewhere to accomplish an

important job, and out of the corner of your eye, for a fleeting

moment, you swear you saw a young Lt., KENNEDY-esque thin in

silhouette, confidently climbing into a jet-fighter, submarine-

hunter "Viking," sub/rescue/special ops helicopter, light-bomber jet,

or electronics-warfare jet.... or....sometimes, half way through a

slow, quiet, midnight-to-4 watch-duty, as you walk down a straight

corridor containing a "mirror" of a hundred-plus, lined-up, open

bulkheads hatches, you gaze well ahead, and can see, for a not-long-

enough, deja-vu instant, a suit-coated man, slightly hunched over,

making his way towards the same coffee machine as yourself.

It is a remarkable ship, that everyone should, and can, be proud of

right along with the men and women who keep us, and much of the

world, free and safe.

Here is a scan of the U.S.S. John F. Kennedy ship's seal from my

flight suit:

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/CV67.jpg

Best Regards in Research. Honored to be yours in the pursuit of

The Truth,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

ROSEMARY WILLIS Headsnap Westward Towards "Grassy Knoll" Discovery

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map, Witnesses, Evidence, Info, etc.

BOND Photos Do Not Support GORDON ARNOLD's Presence

ANTHONY SUMMERS 2001-updated, "The Ghosts of November"

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

"We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first

revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend

and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of

Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a

hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling

to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which

this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed

today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we

shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any

friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of

liberty.

This much we pledge--and more."

----President JOHN F. KENNEDY, during his Presidential inaugural speech, 20JAN61

Thank you Don. This is wonderful.

("...slightly hunched over...) Yes. You noticed too eh? I don't know if it's a tall guy hunch, to look shorter, or if it's 'cause of his back problems, or some other reason.

It's 6:30 pm here in the UK. The time that we lost JFK. A time for reflection and a time for thanks for the time short JFK for with us. When we look at who is in power now the loss feels even greater.

My sentiments exactly.

An anniversary