Sean Murphy

Your antics on this issue have been most amusing David. Yesterday you said: "I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony." Well, not "anything", as it turned out. When it came to evaluating Dougherty's testimony about taking the elevator down from the fifth floor, you suddenly realised how important it was that you fling the big ol' grain of salt right out of reach. Cue your shameless sudden upgrading of his story from "possible" to "probable".

"Possible" and "probable" can co-exist in a person's mind at the same time, Sean. When I said "that's possible" yesterday regarding Dougherty's alleged elevator excursion, that didn't exclude the idea that I also thought it was "probable". But keep thinking you got your "Gotcha!" in, if you want to.

But just to remind you -- neither of the words I used equates to the words "proven" or "definitely". That's why I utilized the words I did.

But I'm surprised you didn't jump all over me for another of my "shameless" attempts to have my cake and eat it too regarding the subject of Jack E. Dougherty:

I did, indeed, say that "a big ol' grain of salt" should be applied to all of Dougherty's testimony. But then I utilized his testimony about how he failed to hear Roy Truly's two "real loud" yells as totally reliable testimony. Shouldn't I have placed a "big ol' grain of salt" beside that testimony too?

IOW--shouldn't I believe that it's just as likely that Dougherty REALLY DID hear Truly yell up the elevator shaft, but he said he didn't?

BTW, can you explain how Dougherty missed hearing Truly's TWO loud yells that day (if Jack had been right near the elevators--and, hence, very near Oswald's stairway escape route too)?

And remember, Sean, you haven't placed any "big ol' grain of salt" beside anything uttered by Jack E. Dougherty---have you?

David, your attitude to Dougherty's testimony has (let's be polite here) evolved with remarkable speed over 24 hours.

Yesterday you were at pains to rubbish his reliability as a witness.

Here are some of the things you wrote:

"But anyone who reads through Jack Dougherty's testimony should know that his testimony is a complete mess. His timing of when he did things and when he supposedly heard the gunshots is a total disaster."

"...Dougherty's jigsaw puzzle which represents his testimony. As I said, it's a mess. His testimony reminds me of all the conspiracy theories -- a certifiable disaster area."

"I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony."

"this incoherent mess that is Jack D.'s testimony".

Strong words, by any standards.

Now at first you were happy to extend this view of Dougherty to his claim to have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor. When the problem (from a LN point of view) of doubting this event was pointed out to you, you blithely told us it didn't matter who took that elevator down. When that silly line of argument didn't work, and the full implications of someone other than Dougherty having done it, you immediately promoted Dougherty's claim from a "possible" to a "probable".

Your new position on the "certifiable disaster area" that is Dougherty's testimony seems to be as follows:

I, David von Pein, no longer believe that "[h]is timing of when he did things and when he supposedly heard the gunshots is a total disaster". On the contrary, the basics of his story now work for me just fine.

There is of course one little bit you still don't believe, though: the bit about his standing just a few feet west of the west elevator at the time of the shooting. Can't see you calling that "probable" anytime soon.

It's quite clear what's going on here, David. You're backtracking with unseemly haste from your initial wholesale dismissal of Dougherty's testimony because you now realise your theory requires you to cherry-pick quite a few appealing bits after all.

You're perfectly entitled to proceed in this way. What you're not entitled to do, however, is pretend you haven't done a slick U-turn--or try to pass off your approach to Jack Dougherty's testimony as objective research. We're not fools.

So, having had the full implications of your trashing of Jack Dougherty's testimony spelled out, you have suddenly and arbitrarily moved away from deeming his descent in the elevator merely "possible" and started describing it as "probable". Jack's testimony, it seems, can be pretty much relied upon after all.

Predictable--and hilariously shameless--backtracking, David!

That's not much of a "backtrack", Sean.

But if you want to think that my "possible" and then "probable" posts regarding Jack Dougherty and the freight elevator constitute "hilariously shameless backtracking" on my part -- go right ahead and think that.

But it's not much of a "Gotcha!", IMO.

Your antics on this issue have been most amusing David. Yesterday you said: "I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony." Well, not "anything", as it turned out. When it came to evaluating Dougherty's testimony about taking the elevator down from the fifth floor, you suddenly realised how important it was that you fling the big ol' grain of salt right out of reach. Cue your shameless sudden upgrading of his story from "possible" to "probable".

David, you have made two things clear:

1. You believe that Jack Dougherty may have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor, but his chronic unreliability as a witness makes that no more than a mere "possibility".

2. You cannot offer the name of a single employee in that building other than Dougherty who could possibly have taken that elevator down.

So your own position leads us to the conclusion: either Dougherty took that elevator at that time or someone who didn't work in the building did so.

Can you offer us a credible scenario whereby someone who didn't work in that building would have been taking an elevator off the fifth floor immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy?

Sean,

Out of all the "possibilities" available, I'd say it was probably Jack Dougherty who took that elevator down from the fifth floor between the time Baker and Truly were calling up the shaft for an elevator to be turned loose and the time B&T got up to the fifth floor and noticed that the west elevator was not there.

I'll also add this:

Dougherty said he did NOT hear anyone yelling up the elevator shaft:

Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.

But we know from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony that Truly DID yell the words "turn loose the elevator", with Truly testifying that he said those words "real loud...loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise". And he yelled them "two times"

.

Therefore, it seems fairly clear to me that Jack Dougherty was not REAL CLOSE to those freight elevators at approximately 12:31 PM, which means he would not necessarily have been in a position to see Lee Harvey Oswald coming down the stairs from the sixth floor at just about that very same time when Truly was yelling "real loud" up that elevator shaft -- a loud yell that Dougherty never heard.

Now, you can argue that maybe Dougherty was hard of hearing, and that's why he failed to hear Roy Truly's "real loud" request to turn loose the elevator. But from the available testimony, it seems pretty obvious to me that Jack Dougherty was not within earshot of Truly's yells. Which means, ergo, that Dougherty was probably somewhere else on the fifth floor, further away from the elevators/stairway, when Truly was yelling and when Oswald was descending.

But, yes, to reiterate -- it probably was Jack Dougherty who took that elevator downstairs.

So, having had the full implications of your trashing of Jack Dougherty's testimony spelled out, you have suddenly and arbitrarily moved away from deeming his descent in the elevator merely "possible" and started describing it as "probable". Jack's testimony, it seems, can be pretty much relied upon after all.

Predictable--and hilariously shameless--backtracking, David!

David, you have made two things clear:

1. You believe that Jack Dougherty may have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor, but his chronic unreliability as a witness makes that no more than a mere "possibility".

2. You cannot offer the name of a single employee in that building other than Dougherty who could possibly have taken that elevator down.

So your own position leads us to the conclusion: either Dougherty took that elevator at that time or someone who didn't work in the building did so.

Can you offer us a credible scenario whereby someone who didn't work in that building would have been taking an elevator off the fifth floor immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy?

You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?

David, you've made it clear that you don't think it's safe to say that Jack Dougherty was the person who took that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.

The furthest you've been willing to go on that score is that it's merely a "possibility".

Now here's your problem:

Either it was Dougherty or else it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.

Why? Because all other TSBD workers are accounted for at that time.

Unless of course you've suddenly thought of a hitherto unknown TSBD worker who it could have been?

If so, then we're all ears.

If not, then we need to talk about why someone who didn't work in the building might have been up there at that precise time.

There were a lot of TSBD workers not accounted for besides Oswald and Giviens, especially those salesmen, secretaries and managers among the contractors who worked for the book companies who leased offices space on the second, third and fourth floors - among them Bobbs-Merrill, who William Harvey worked for.

Then there were truck drivers and those who had access to the rear doors and access to the first and second floor lunch rooms and restrooms, one of whom did a Sixth Floor Oral History, and described how easy it was for delivery people to drop off and pick up books from the rear delivery area.

Everyone who was at work in the building that day was accounted for, Bill. And neither book company salesman/secretaries/managers nor truck drivers/deliverers would have had any business up on the fifth floor (or higher).

You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?

David, you've made it clear that you don't think it's safe to say that Jack Dougherty was the person who took that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.

The furthest you've been willing to go on that score is that it's merely a "possibility".

Now here's your problem:

Either it was Dougherty or else it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.

Why? Because all other TSBD workers are accounted for at that time.

Unless of course you've suddenly thought of a hitherto unknown TSBD worker who it could have been?

If so, then we're all ears.

If not, then we need to talk about why someone who didn't work in the building might have been up there at that precise time.

And if I can't name the person who used an elevator on the fifth floor it means that Oswald is innocent and the LN scenario goes sliding down the tubes? Is that it?

You'd better start over, Sean. Because this elevator thing goes nowhere and you know it (even if it wasn't Dougherty who used it).

David, it's evident you can't offer the name of another TSBD worker who might have taken that elevator off the fifth floor at that time.

Okay. Where does that leave us?

Unless it was Dougherty, or unless there is some mysterious other TSBD worker whose name has somehow disappeared from the record, then it must have been someone who didn't work at the TSBD.

You disagree? Kindly explain where I've gone wrong.

How does the movement of an elevator on the FIFTH floor in any way affect the "Lone Nut Theory" that has Oswald shooting JFK from the SIXTH floor?

The two things aren't in any way related. Not even the same floor.

David, can you give us the name of a TSBD worker other than Jack Dougherty who could have brought down that elevator at that time? Yes or no?

Sean,

You're elevating the "Dougherty/Elevator" episode to absurd levels of perceived importance.

Fact is: I don't know with 100% certainty how the elevator got down from the fifth floor shortly after the assassination took place. Nor do you.

But whether it was Dougherty or wasn't Dougherty on that elevator, the movement of that elevator doesn't suddenly eliminate all of the evidence that indicates Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people in Dallas on 11/22/63.

On the contrary, David, if it wasn't Dougherty who brought that elevator down at that time then your Lone Nut Theory is in deep trouble.

You disagree? Fine. Give us the name of another TSBD worker it could have been.

You can't, can you?

David von Pein has made clear his opinion that Jack Dougherty's testimony is such a "mess" that the best we can say of his claim to have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor just after the shooting is that--it's "possible". Can we state with any assurance or confidence that Dougherty did indeed do this? Not according to David we can't.

Let's unpack this a little further, shall we?

If, as David believes, we cannot state with any assurance or confidence that it was Dougherty who brought the west freight elevator off the fifth floor,

and if, as David believes, we can state with assurance and confidence that the west freight elevator did indeed leave the fifth floor between the time that Baker and Truly took to the stairs and the time they hit the fifth floor landing,

then it follows that:

we cannot state with any reasonable degree of assurance that the disappearance of the fifth floor elevator has an innocent explanation.

Why is this?

Because there is not a single TSBD employee other than Dougherty who could possibly have taken that elevator. It certainly can't have been Oswald. It certainly can't have been Norman, Jarman or Williams. And no-one else was in the vicinity.

Thus David's own reasoning leads us to a startling conclusion:

It is unsafe and unreasonable so to rely on Jack Dougherty's testimony as to rule out the possibility that the west freight elevator was taken off the fifth floor by someone who did not work in the TSBD.

Now unless David is prepared to upgrade his "possible" to an "almost certain" in talking of Dougherty's claim to have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor just after the assassination, he has just committed himself to the following view:

It is possible that the Lone Nut Theory is true;

belief in that theory, however, can never be held with anything close to assurance or confidence

--for to do so would be to rely on the certifiable disaster area that is Jack Dougherty's testimony.

Again, thanks David.

So--is it your belief that Jack Dougherty took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor before Baker and Truly came up on to the fifth floor landing?

That's possible. But it had to have been after Baker & Truly had started up the stairs, because both freight elevators were stuck on upper floors when B&T first got to the elevators.

It's only "possible"? That's very interesting, for it means that--in your opinion--we cannot state with any reasonable degree of assurance that it was Dougherty who brought that west freight elevator down between Baker & Truly's starting up the stairs and their reaching the fifth floor.

Thanks, David.

I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony. Here are several good examples:

Mr. BALL - Did you know that the President was going to pass in a

motorcade that noon?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they said something about it.

Mr. BALL - Did you intend to go out and watch him?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched

him, but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I

could get out there.

~big shrug~

Jack apparently didn't realize there was more than one exit in the TSBD. He felt the ONLY way outside was through the front entrance.

~another shrug~

====================

Mr. BALL - On the day that this happened, on the 22nd of November, you

told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud

explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor

above me." Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot,

coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I told them it sounded like a car

backfiring.

Mr. BALL - Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the

floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You did not tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at the time it did--yes.

I guess Dougherty must have thought there was a '62 Chevy Impala "backfiring" up on the sixth floor, huh?

=====================

Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they

found the shotgun and shells?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

So, Dougherty is now saying he was on the sixth floor AFTER 1:22 PM CST on November 22nd. Joe Ball was probably pulling his hair out while trying to comprehend this incoherent mess that is Jack D.'s testimony.

======================

Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the

shots?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody. There wasn't nobody on

the fifth floor at all. It was just myself.

======================

Mr. BALL - Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was before lunch; it was before lunch.

Mr. BALL - You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I believe it was--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - And you were alone, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Here we have a replay of the previous humorous moment regarding JD's "before lunch" declaration. How could anyone POSSIBLY believe Dougherty's "Before Lunch" testimony above? Especially when we also find this exchange within the very same day's WC testimony:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went back downstairs to eat lunch.

Mr. BALL - What time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, it was 12 o'clock.

Your witness, Perry.

So--is it your belief that Jack Dougherty took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor before Baker and Truly came up on to the fifth floor landing?

Spin away all you like, David, it doesn't change the fact that Jack Dougherty "just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting".

You can't prove that. Certainly not by utilizing Dougherty's jigsaw puzzle which represents his testimony. As I said, it's a mess. His testimony reminds me of all the conspiracy theories -- a certifiable disaster area.

If Dougherty's testiomony is such a mess, such a certifiable disaster area, then we cannot say with any assurance that it was he who took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor while Baker and Truly were going up the stairs. Correct?

Jean [Davison] appears not to have heard of Jack Dougherty! Rookie error.

Of course Jean has heard of Jack Dougherty. And Jean's far from being a "rookie". She wrote a fine book on Oswald 30 years ago.

But anyone who reads through Jack Dougherty's testimony should know that his testimony is a complete mess. His timing of when he did things and when he supposedly heard the gunshots is a total disaster. Here's what I mean:

Examining The Testimony Of Jack Dougherty

Back to this quote of Jean Davison's again for a moment:

"Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- J. Davison; May 2013

Jean's comment repeated above should be looked at from another context and point-of-view too -- that is: Oswald is certainly "unlike every other employee" when we COMBINE both of these things listed below:

1.) Oswald was positively located "near the shooter's likely escape route" within just two minutes of the assassination.

And

2.) Oswald was "unlike every other employee" in the TSBD because it was HIS RIFLE (not another employee's) that was found on the sixth floor after the assassination. And his rifle was found very near the same staircase that Oswald was also very near within just two minutes after that very same rifle was used by somebody to fire bullets at President Kennedy.

When adding #1 and #2 together, these words written by Jean certainly do apply to Lee Harvey Oswald if he were innocent of shooting the President --- "Is that bad luck or what?"

Spin away all you like, David, it doesn't change the fact that Jack Dougherty "just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting". Jean goofed up, and royally.

Did Groden positively ID his witness as Hine, Sean? Because her earlier statements make clear she was alone.

Geneva Hine was manning the phones in the second floor offices of the Texas School Book Depository, on the east side of the building, facing Houston Street. (11-23-63 FBI report, CD5 p369-370) "Mrs. Hine advised that sometime between 12:25 PM and 12:35 PM she was alone in her office on the second floor of the company building...At approximately that time she heard what she described as three shots. She heard these very distinctly and believes they came from somewhere inside the building, inasmuch as it sounded to her that the shots originated above and to the west of her." (11-23-63 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 1 folder 8 file 52 of the Dallas JFK Archives) "Was in the office alone the day of the shooting heard three shots and did not know what happened until the Police came in the office and told the president had been shot." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H651) "At the time President Kennedy was shot I was on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was alone at the time." (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H393-397) “I could see it from the east window of our office…I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming. Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots…Three…they came from inside the building…the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in...they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific." (When asked if she was standing at the window at the time of the shots) "Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk. ”

There's also this. In her testimony before the Warren Commission, Hine suggested that there were two other women on the second floor at the time of the shooting. One of these, Mrs. Lee Watley, never made a statement to the FBI or Warren Commission. The other, Mrs. Carol Hughes, made a statement to the FBI which said almost nothing.

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?

Miss HINE. Three.

Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?

395

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right?

Miss HINE Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know,

lying down on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm.

Mr. BALL. You could see could you see any part of Elm?

Miss HINE. East, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer.

Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That opens on---

Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and---

Mr. BALL. Steps lead down?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Me, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

Mr. BALL. On to Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. I See.

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was which company?

Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?

Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

Mrs. Carol Hughes (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H654) “I am employed by the South-Western Publishing Company, Room 203, Texas School Book Depository...On November 22, 1963, I went to south window near my desk which overlooks Elm Street to watch the Presidential motorcade pass along Houston and Elm Streets. I was standing looking out this window when President John F. Kennedy was shot. I was alone in the office as all the other people had gone to the street to watch the motorcade pass. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time. I do not know Oswald but I had seen him in the building several times prior to this day.”

Pat,

Groden hasn't yet identified the lady as Geneva Hine but I can't see who else it could possibly be.

It wouldn't be surprising that Hine's 63/64 statements put her alone at the time of the shooting. According to Groden, she was pressurised into writing Oswald out of her story.

Her earlier statements put her in the office at the time of the shooting. Her WC testimony, by contrast, has her watching the motorcade out the window--which would be a neat way of further distancing her testimony from what really happened.

Vida Lee Whatley gave a statement to the F.B.I. saying she left the TSBD at 12.15 and was shopping on Elm Street at the time of the assassination.

Sean

Edit: dupe deleted

Bill, Jean appears not to have heard of Jack Dougherty! Rookie error.

If the second-floor lunchroom incident really did happen (which personally I doubt--see, for starters, Baker's 11/22 affidavit which David has kindly posted), then I have difficulty with the idea that a non-guilty Oswald just happened to time his trip up to the second floor to within seconds of the shooting.

However Robert Groden's Geneva Hine interview would offer a simple scenario whereby a non-guilty Oswald could be seen through the glass window without having just come up from the first floor--namely, he was on his way to the lunchroom having just gotten change for the coke machine from Hine.

Here's what Groden told Len Osanic:

I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. […] We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn’t. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, “No pennies, please.” And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], “What was that?” Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew? He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.

But why, on this scenario, would Oswald later (allegedly) claim to have been on the first floor at the time of the shooting?

Well, put the case:

-he's mooching around the first-floor domino room several minutes before the motorcade

-he notices Jarman & Norman reentering the building and naturally assumes that the President has already passed the building

-he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom and sits down (being spotted there by Carolyn Arnold as she is heading outside to catch the motorcade)

-he goes into the second-floor office area for change for the coke machine

-on his way back he is challenged by Baker

Now for the key bit:

-when he hears that JFK has been shot, he assumes it must have been several minutes before the lunchroom incident with the cop

-hence he tells Fritz that he was on the first floor when the President passed the building.

On this scenario: Oswald never realised the significance of the exchange with Geneva Hine in the office. He never realised he had an alibi.

From a report filed 11/22 by Captain Will Fritz:

Hi Joseph, I'd be interested to hear your take on the TSBD side of things. Where was Oswald at 12.30?, etc.

Bravo, John.

Just bumping this topic.

I continue to be troubled by the image of Norman.

But, Sean, don't you think the fact that Oswald left the building at 12:33, via ANY exit, is a sign of guilt? Or at least possible guilt (esp. when factoring in the evidence that was found upstairs -- his gun, his prints in the Nest, etc.)?

Not necessarily a sign of guilt, no, but certainly a sign that he was involved in some way.

Sean: Was trying to contact you via London Forum. Please check your messages. Thanks. DSL

Hi David, I've tried emailing you twice in the past few days, most recently at dlifton2003[at]yahoo.com. Did neither message reach you??

Sean

But, Sean, don't you think the fact that Oswald left the building at 12:33, via ANY exit, is a sign of guilt? Or at least possible guilt (esp. when factoring in the evidence that was found upstairs -- his gun, his prints in the Nest, etc.)?

Not necessarily a sign of guilt, no, but certainly a sign that he was involved in some way.

Howard Brennan's 11/22 affidavit ends with the confident assertion:

"I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again."

Well, Mr. Brennan did see an individual by the name of Lee Oswald later that day and--refused point-blank to identify him as the man he had seen firing from the sixth floor window.

It's also most probable that Brennan would have seen Oswald exiting the TSBD by the front entrance just minutes after the assassination. Again, no identification.

If I were as naive as David von Pein, these simple facts would not trouble me.

Sean,

You make an interesting point. One would think that Brennan would have watched the front door closely after the assassination to try to spot, leaving the building, the guy he'd seen in the window. Not having "researched" it, I don't know if he did that or not. All I remember is a Murray photograph showing him standing in the background with some other people, including the "Rip Robertson" and "John Adrian O'Hare" - looking guys, and he's looking up (at an upper-floor TSBD window?) with his hard hat on.

http://www.jfkassass...lbum=125&pos=20 (Thanks, Robin Unger, for your great online collection of photos.)

--Tommy

Exactly, Tommy. Brennan will have been on high alert for the face he had seen up at the window.

Also worth noting that Oswald's decision to leave via the building's most high-visibility exit is itself suggestive of innocence of the shooting. Would the real shooter have put himself so casually in full view of any number of people who might have spotted him on the sixth floor just minutes earlier? Seems very unlikely.

Oswald, not having been the shooter, has no cause to hide his face now from the crowd gathered outside the building.

Did Brennan lie on 11/22 or not, David? Simple question.

Yes. Of course he did.

Thank you, David.

So you and I agree that Howard Brennan was a witness who lied on the record, albeit for understandable reasons.