Dean Hartwell

Judyth referred to the links above in her recent message posted by Jim. I get the message "cannot find..." for each. Does anyone else get anything different? Dean

"Our debate"? You haven't been part of this thread for quite awhile ... and for only a few posts overall. That is certainly your choice. Just a few days ago, Jim asked the moderators to move some off topic (for this thread) posts that were flourishing into an interesting discussion on another matter, to a new thread of their own so that those here could continue uninterrupted with the good discussions taking place in this thread. And Evan graciously did just that. As in all threads, the best indicator of whether or not a thread is seen as "worth continuing" is best indicated by the traffic on the thread ... number of reads, number of posts, number of posters. This thread has had over 40 posts put up by at least 10 different posters in just the last 24 hours. And we have new issues that have come up in the last couple of days that are being addressed, Adele Edisen herself joining in with a few posts. And, of course, having the subject of the thread available and weighing in with her own comments is a valuable opportunity for all interested in the subject. Threads members do not find "worth continuing" just naturally die out on their own. On this thread, the traffic and new issues being raised and addressed speaks louder than any "worth continuing" survey. Barb :-) Barb, There is merit to some of what you say. Traffic and new issues can indicate a good debate. And all of us, I am sure, would like to be in a good debate. But my questions go to the issue of whether the sides debate with an open mind or a closed one. The more closed minds, the more likely a poor debate. I asked my questions with all sincerity. Whether anyone chooses to respond is their choice and I will respect it. Dean

Anyone writing historical fiction writes of the people as real persons. Doug Weldon Gotcha, Doug. I have edited this sentence on the original post. Thanks!

At this point in our debate, I am presenting a three-question survey to determine whether the debate is worth continuing. My own answers follow below: Questions: 1. What would it take for you to change your mind about JVB's story? 2. Are there any hidden arguments you have not disclosed? 3. Do you think you have delivered a "knock out" punch? (If so, why are you still debating?) Answers: 1. It would take a lot. I have corresponded with JVB for over a year and have been persuaded favorably to her story. From my point of view, she speaks of and writes of Lee Oswald like she knew him. I do not believe there are any reasons why she would make it up, as I have mentioned on one of JVB's blogs. I believe she has told her story at great risk to herself and to divisions in her family. There may well be discrepancies in her story, but honest mistakes and an imperfect memory make much more sense as explanations than deception. 2. I don't think so. I have written out my arguments on the Education Forum, my own web site and other sites as well. If I have hidden any arguments, it certainly has not been intentional. 3. No. For those of us who are not first-hand witnesses to anything JVB speaks of, we will never know the absolute truth of what happened. I wanted to ensure JVB’s story got stated and cross-examined, either here or on the other thread. I have been satisfied that this goal has been achieved and also acknowledge that the discovery of truth is an ongoing process. For me, there will be no knock-out punch, only the satisfaction of pursuing what is in my sincere opinion the truth.

John, I am sorry we could not agree upon keeping the question on the update. I understand you believe in its relevance. Thank you for keeping a reasonable tone. Dean

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION UPDATED This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination. At this point I will underline what could reasonably said to be independently corroborated evidence presented. (1)JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there. On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites. Cross-examination: None to date (2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald. On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee. Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video. JVB responds: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping. Stephen says Anna should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem. JVB responds: Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was. Re-direct: JVB states the following: Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition. Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has asserted that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, evidence that she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with evidence of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities. The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family. Thus, there are two living witnesses and the assertions of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald. (3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair. On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video. Cross-examination: See above, to which Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB. JVB responds: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans. In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald. Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee. Oswald only once did not tell Marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker. Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, a statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged. (4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro. On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student. Cross-examination: See above. JVB responds: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.) Former University of Florida student Dr. Kathy Santi has verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses. Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story... On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit. A statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission. Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider. Note: Anyone who believes I have not quoted or paraphrased them accurately should contact me in a constructive manner and I will work with them to straighten it out. I also want to thank those who have contributed ideas to the direct and cross examination of Judyth' story, whether I agree with their ideas or not. This is a dialogue, not a monologue, and courtesy is key.

Monk, The "also ignored" you mention refers back to a prior paragraph in which William "Mac" McCullough is described as "consistently ignored." This is simply JVB's opinion that others have ignored witnesses she cites as evidence. It appears to state that these witnesses have been ignored by others, but it leaves open the question as to whether they provide evidence of relevance. I don't think it begs the question to which you refer. Dean

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION UPDATED This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination: (1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there. On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites. Cross-examination: None to date (2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald. On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee. Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video. JVB responds: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping. Stephen says Anna should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem. JVB responds: Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was. Re-direct: JVB states the following: Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition. Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has asserted that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, evidence that she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with evidence of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities. The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family. Thus, there are two living witnesses and the assertions of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald. (3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair. On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video. Cross-examination: See above, to which Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB. JVB responds: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans. In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald. Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee. Oswald only once did not tell Marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker. Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, a statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged. (4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro. On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student. Cross-examination: See above. JVB responds: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.) Former University of Florida student Dr. Kathy Santi has verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses. Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story... On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit. A statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission. Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider. Note: Anyone who believes I have not quoted or paraphrased them accurately should contact me in a constructive manner and I will work with them to straighten it out. I also want to thank those who have contributed ideas to the direct and cross examination of Judyth' story, whether I agree with their ideas or not. This is a dialogue, not a monologue, and courtesy is key.

Agreed. Evidence is not the same thing as proof. And sometimes evidence is counter-indicative to the claim or claims being made, in terms of support. However, if you believe that "evidence is not proof" then please refrain from "begging the question" in your presentation. As an example, you said [in bold my emphasis]: "Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has verified that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, proving she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with irrefutable proof of having known Charles Thomas." I thought this was evidence only...not proof? It would be preferable that you not frame testimony/evidence as though they were "already facts in evidence" for the jury when they are not. Monk, Because I wrote it after a clause that said "JVB states," I thought the context that it was her opinion was clear. But you have a point. See the new update soon. Thanks, Dean

Monk, here is what I said, in part, in a recent post: 1. This is a “work in progress” (see post #51) where I ask people to make constructive comments as part of a dialogue. 4. Independent corroboration is best (#51). But I have put uncorroborated statements on the grounds that everyone can see and make comments. Yes, it is true I have included uncorroborated statements on this thread. And you raise a good issue to point out what you see as uncorroborated or unsubstantiated. So it is now noted. To continue our conversation, has the evidence provided on "direct" (not rebuttal to cross) has been corroborated to your satisfaction? This would be the videotaped statements of Anna Lewis, the time card, newspaper clippings, etc.? Dean P.S. I am not an attorney - I have a law degree. And I have also previously said this thread has no attorneys or judges, only jurors (all of us). This thread is about an exchange of views on evidence. Evidence is not the same thing as proof. The proof is for everyone to decide for themselves. Thanks!

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION UPDATED This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination: (1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there. On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites. Cross-examination: None to date (2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald. On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee. Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video. JVB responds: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping. Stephen says Anna should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem. JVB responds: Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was. Re-direct: JVB states the following: Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition. Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has verified that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, proving she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with irrefutable proof of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities. The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family. Thus, there are two living witnesses and the attestations of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald. (3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair. On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video. Cross-examination: See above, to which Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB. JVB responds: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans. In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald. Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee. Oswald only once did not tell marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker. Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, the statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged. (4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro. On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student. Cross-examination: See above. JVB responds: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.) Former University of Florida student Dr. Kathy Santi has verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses. Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story... On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit. Cross-examination: Barb states the following: The book's status does not negate everything in it. On page 171 JVB says that Kerry Thornley took a picture of her and LHO together. JVB responds: Regarding the Thornley picture, Oswald never gave the photo to Baker. The photo was made only to assuage suspicions Thornley had that Baker and Oswald were having an affair. The statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider. Note: Anyone who believes I have not quoted or paraphrased them accurately should contact me in a constructive manner and I will work with them to straighten it out. I also want to thank those who have contributed ideas to the direct and cross examination of Judyth' story, whether I agree with their ideas or not. This is a dialogue, not a monologue, and courtesy is key.

John, Post #91 was my own thoughts. Also my thoughts - I do not see any credibility issue if she said she was a socialist in contemporary Sweden and that over forty years ago that she saw Castro as an imminent threat the U.S. I am the one who will remove this idea from the next update. However, your thoughts will remain on the posts. Dean Dean, the point is that she saw it relevant to include that in her application (linked to early in the other topic). Why, I don't know. Her reply is a demand to see that. It's her documentation after all. Why now ask for it and put in a note it's personal stuff when it's on a standard doc in the first place she (one would expect) is fully aware of. Surely there is something a bit odd there. John, Thank you for a constructive reply. I simply made my own decision to take the issue off the updates because the difference in time between her early belief and her alleged statement that she is a socialist are both too remote and unrelated to make an issue of credibility. I understand it may seem odd. One good thing about these threads is that people can read what you have said and decide for themselves. If people think I am unreasonable to remove this issue, I may not agree with them, but reasonable minds can disagree. Dean

To all who wish to continue this thread along the lines of evidence and cross-examination of JVB's story: 1. This is a “work in progress” (see post #51) where I ask people to make constructive comments as part of a dialogue. 2. I will disregard comments that are not constructive (such as personal attacks). I said specifically in post #51 that I would ignore “complaints, rhetorical questions and other distractions.” 3. The updates give everyone a chance to see for themselves whether I have quoted or paraphrased them accurately. Waiting a long period of time to correct things (like over 60 posts) gives me an impression what I said was alright. 4. Independent corroboration is best (#51). But I have put uncorroborated statements on the grounds that everyone can see and make comments. 5. Telling me I should have acknowledged something from the other thread does no good. I made this thread to set forth Judyth’s story and INVITED rebuttal. You tell me what you want to include from somewhere else and phrase it as a rebuttal to JVB’s comments. 6. I could go on but I don’t like too many rules. This is a conversation, or better yet, a “dialogue, not a monologue.” If you can’t talk to me constructively, I’m afraid I cannot help you. So I will only re-appear to talk to those who are willing to engage in a respectful and reasoned conversation with me about JVB’s claims.

Please scan and post the verification from all three. Thanks, Barb :-) Sure, Barb. Just as soon as you can verify these claims that you have made: Holding evidence hostage, counselor? It is for the plaintiff to prove her case. Withholding evidence is not in her best interests, now is it? As for what I have said, given what you have attributed to me below, perhaps you should stick to quotes. :-) My comments appear in full in post 45 on page 3. Re Debra Conway, who taped the 2000 interview of Anna Lewis in the presence of others, including Judyth, I said: "And I cannot find the exact quote, but Debra has commented that Anna Lewis told her something along the lines of her not remembering Judyth as the girl she remembered, that she wasn't sure/didn't think this (Judyth) was the woman she knew. Will continue looking for that quote." I have not found it, nor have I had much time to look for it as I was out of town for a long weekend. This has nothing to do with the unsubstantiated claims you made above about Judyth having 3 former UF students who have verified Judyth being in pre-med classes and having been seen in the radiation section at the university. I have never claimed that Judyth sent any transcript of one witness to another witness. Here again, is what I actually said: "Judyth found and spoke to Anna Lewis previously, before this trip to NO. Even Martin Shackelford acknowledged that. I find that troubling for a couple of reasons, not the least of which being how Judyth went about interviewing McGehee ... early on, at least according to a "highlights" transcript that Judyth emailed around, saying, when he spoke about seeing a big black cadillac pull out down the street just after Oswald left his barbershop, "I suggested that perhaps others had tried to influence him about the incident, prompting a false memory, but he said no, he had not been influenced by anyone." Extremely inappropriate. And, as far as we know, there is no actual transcript of her interview with McGehee. If there is, that would be important to see." Nor did I say I believe Judyth may have"encouraged" Anna Lewis ... I did say I found it troubling that Judyth had found and spoken to Lewis alone before the trip to NO with the group to interview Lewis ... and I explained why I find it troubling, saying, in addition to the above: "Anna Lewis, according to the old team Judyth, acknowledged that Anna Lewis refused to go on camera and repeat her story for the TMWKK "Love Affair" segment. And where did Anna Lewis get this thing about Oswald firing a warning shot? That came from Judyth's early story/draft. Just how exposed to Judyth's story was she before this interview? Poor thing looked scared to death, it was like she was going by a script .... and forgetting and getting lost some times, mouthing things to someone and getting some prompts. Sounds like Stephen has a copy of the same document I do. Judyth's interview technique with McGehee was wholly inappropriate based on her partial transcript she sent around. Anna Lewis's script like telling, forgetting and getting lost, looking (and sometimes mouthing) to someone for prompts .... none of that bolsters confidence in a witness. Judyth having found and talked to this "witness" first is troubling .... and then in this taped statement said witness mentions Oswald firing a warning shot .... which is straight out of an early draft of Judyth's and rather sets off the uh-oh alarms even louder. Lewis says she met Oswald in April 1962 ... then says sometime between January and April 1962. Aside from having the year wrong, her memory doesn't seem that good on this. I do not know Anna Lewis, and I in no way accuse her of anything or impugn her character, but there is another troubling aspect that was revealed over the course of many posts discussed on the mod group years ago. And that is an allegation that Anna Lewis was promised compensation. I understand Ms Lewis is of meager means, and sadly, caring for a severely ill/disabled child ... who is now an adult. I don't recall who first made the allegation, but it was hotly and loudly denied. Then a member of then team Judyth admitted that there was talk of trying to help her out, but that that came about only after her interview had been taped. I can't make any judgment, or even an opinion on that, other than to say that it is one more thing that feels very uncomfortable about this woman's statement overall." None of this, of course, has anything to do with the claim you posted that Judyth has 3 former UF students who have "verified" she was in pre-med classes and was in/had access to the radiation section of the engineering labs. The only "claim" I made was about a comment Debra made ... I explained I have no quote and cannot recall exactly what she said. I find myself agreeing with Dean Hagerman and some others. Based on what you have done so far in this thread, what could have been productive, is nothing but a farce in your hands. And your response to me points that out rather glaringly. If Judyth had documents from 3 students verifying the things she claims ... you would have posted them straight away. You are playing a game. Most of us are not interested in any game, Mr. Hartwell, we are interested in the truth. And on the matter of the claims of Judyth Vary Baker, it is long overdue. Barb, Tell you what. If you, Dean Hagerman and the unnamed people you are telling me about do not like the way I run this thread, you are free to go somewhere else. Dean

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION UPDATED This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination: (1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there. On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites. Cross-examination: None to date (2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald. On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee. Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video. Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements. JVB responds: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping. Stephen says Anna should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem. JVB responds: Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was. Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made by Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB. Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness. Re-direct: JVB states the following: Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition. Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has verified that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, proving she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with irrefutable proof of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities. The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family. Thus, there are two living witnesses and the attestations of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald. (3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair. On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video. Cross-examination: See above, to which Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB. JVB responds: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans. In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald. Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee. Oswald only once did not tell marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker. Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, the statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged. (4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro. On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student. Cross-examination: See above. JVB responds: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.) Former University of Florida student Dr. Kathy Santi has verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses and two of her former classmates have verified her presence in the radiaition section of the engineering labs at UF even though her official records do not mention such activities or courses. (Note minor edition from last update). [Note: Barb has asked for verification of their statements scanned and posted here. However, JVB has pointed out that her presence in the radiation section is not something that was recorded. She has also promised to keep the lives of the individuals private.] Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story... On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit. Cross-examination: Barb states the following: The book’s status does not negate everything in it. On page 171 JVB says that Kerry Thornley took a picture of her and LHO together. JVB responds: Regarding the Thornley picture, Oswald never gave the photo to Baker. The photo was made only to assuage suspicions Thornley had that Baker and Oswald were having an affair. The statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider. Comments on credibility (based on one of the four assertions): Where it goes next: All members are free to respond with ideas on evidence that works for or against any of these assertions.

John, Post #91 was my own thoughts. Also my thoughts - I do not see any credibility issue if she said she was a socialist in contemporary Sweden and that over forty years ago that she saw Castro as an imminent threat the U.S. I am the one who will remove this idea from the next update. However, your thoughts will remain on the posts. Dean

John, I do not understand your first comment. As to your question, it sounds like a leading question. You already have my answer.

Please scan and post the verification from all three. Thanks, Barb :-) Sure, Barb. Just as soon as you can verify these claims that you have made: Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made by Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB. Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness. Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements.

John, Mona Ingeborg Sahlin née Andersson is a Swedish politician and the current leader of the Swedish Social Democratic Party (Wikipedia). Is Mona Sahlin a threat to the United States? Does she support the jailing or execution of opposition leaders? Does she forbid free and fair elections? There appears to be no connection with the modern Swedish Socialist and the socialists that you mentioned. Nor does there appear to be any chance that Sahlin could do something like allowing missiles to be pointed at our nation. You mention that the scans are in the "JVB thread." I assume you mean the thread which now has almost 3,000 posts. But it does not matter. JVB's alleged statement of being a socialist in Sweden decades after her belief that killing Castro would be justifiable, even if true does not reasonably raise the issue of credibility. Dean

John, I am not clear what you believe JVB is admitting to here. Is it: That she perceived Fidel Castro as a threat to the United States and saw nothing wrong with killing him? That she stated many years later in Sweden that she was a socialist? How does being a modern Swedish socialist contradict the perception that Castro was a threat and that he should be killed? Are you going to provide the quotation that you referred to on a scan? I need clarification before proceeding here. Thanks, Dean

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION UPDATED This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination: (1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there. On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites. Cross-examination: None to date (2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald. On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee. Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video. Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements. JVB responds: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping. Stephen says Anna should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem. JVB responds: Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was. Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made by Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB. Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness. Re-direct: JVB states the following: Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition. Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has verified that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, proving she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with irrefutable proof of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities. The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family. Thus, there are two living witnesses and the attestations of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald. (3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair. On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video. Cross-examination: See above, to which Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB. JVB responds: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans. In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald. Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee. Oswald only once did not tell marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker. Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, the statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged. (4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro. On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student. Cross-examination: See above. JVB responds: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.) Former University of Florida students such as Dr. Kathy Santi and two of her former high school classmates have verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses and in the radiation section of the engineering labs a UF even though her official records do not mention such activities or courses. Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story... On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit. Cross-examination: Barb states the following: The book’s status does not negate everything in it. On page 171 JVB says that Kerry Thornley took a picture of her and LHO together. JVB responds: Regarding the Thornley picture, Oswald never gave the photo to Baker. The photo was made only to assuage suspicions Thornley had that Baker and Oswald were having an affair. The statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider. Comments on credibility (based on one of the four assertions): John Dolver asks: "Judyth, when you went to spend some time in Sweden and go through the process of applying for asylum, part of your claim is that you are a socialist. Could you please take time to outline the argument you have for this, as well as state why you consider this a point of relevance. Further, how do you reconcile that with the proposed murder of the head of state of the sovereign nation of Cuba and performing this task with the Central Intelligence Agency of the sovereign nation the United States of America. Please." JVB replies: "SHOW US THE QUOTATION. This was supposed to be private, personal information. Only the verdict, with some explanatory statements, was supposed to be released to the public. I insist on seeing a copy of the document. Scan it, please. The events of 1963 involved missiles capable of delivering nuclear warheads to my country, compliments of Castro. I was a 19-year-old American, in 1963, who had written President Kennedy and offered my services to my country." Where it goes next: All members are free to respond with ideas on evidence that works for or against any of these assertions.

Stephen, I made Baker the plaintiff because the plaintiff introduces the case. Here, her case is to assert she is telling the truth about her time in New Orleans. I have quoted both the plaintiff (aka "direct") and the defendants ("cross") to the extent that they have provided evidence. Both sides may quesion anything the other side has said. If by "record" you mean other posts on this thread, I initiated putting evidence on "direct examination." Since then, she has responded to what the defendants have said on "cross" to me by email as she does not access this forum. If defendants want to send me information by PM or email, they may do so. I will then put it on the thread on an update post and if anyone does not agree I paraphrased or quoted them directly, they may say so. Dean

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION UPDATED This is a work in progress where I am collecting evidence about JVB's story. My focus is on her four basic assertions: (1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there. On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites. Cross-examination: None to date (2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald. On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee. Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video. He says she should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem. Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements. Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB. Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness. Re-direct: JVB states the following: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping. Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was. Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition. Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has verified that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, proving she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with irrefutable proof of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities. The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family. Thus, there are two living witnesses and the attestations of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald. (3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair. On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video. Cross-examination: See above. Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB. Re-direct: JVB states the following: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans. In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald. Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee. Oswald only once did not tell marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker. Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, the statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged. (4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro. On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student. Cross-examination: See above. Re-direct: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.) Former University of Florida students such as Dr. Kathy Santi and two of her former high school classmates have verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses and in the radiation section of the engineering labs a UF even though her official records do not mention such activities or courses. Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story... On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit. Cross-examination: Barb states the following: The book’s status does not negate everything in it. On page 171 JVB says that Kerry Thornley took a picture of her and LHO together. Re-direct: JVB states the following: Regarding the Thornley picture, Oswald never gave the photo to Baker. The photo was made only to assuage suspicions Thornley had that Baker and Oswald were having an affair. The statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider. Comments on credibility (based on one of the four assertions): John Dolver asks: "Judyth, when you went to spend some time in Sweden and go through the process of applying for asylum, part of your claim is that you are a socialist. Could you please take time to outline the argument you have for this, as well as state why you consider this a point of relevance. Further, how do you reconcile that with the proposed murder of the head of state of the sovereign nation of Cuba and performing this task with the Central Intelligence Agency of the sovereign nation the United States of America. Please." JVB replies: SHOW US THE QUOTATION. This was supposed to be private, personal information. Only the verdict, with some explanatory statements, was supposed to be released to the public. I insist on seeing a copy of the document. Scan it, please. The events of 1963 involved missiles capable of delivering nuclear warheads to my country, compliments of Castro. I was a 19-year-old American, in 1963, who had written President Kennedy and offered my services to my country." Where it goes next: All members are free to respond with ideas on evidence that works for or against any of these assertions.

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION: AN UPDATE JVB's story is broken down into four basic assertions and cross-examined: (1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there. On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites. Cross-examination: None to date (2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald. On Direct: Anna Lewis makes statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She says, among other things, that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee. Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video. He says she should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem. Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements. Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB. Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness. Re-direct: JVB argues the following: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping. Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping. Lewis told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was. (3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair. On direct: Anna Lewis made comments on this topic on the same video. Cross-examination: See above. Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB. Re-direct: JVB argues the following: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans. (4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells to use to kill Fidel Castro. On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student. Cross-examination: See above. Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story... On direct: JVB argues the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute and because she submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Cross-examination: Barb argues the following: The book’s status does not negate everything in it. On page 171 JVB says that Kerry Thornley took a picture of her and LHO together. Re-direct: JVB argues the following: Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit. Her statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider. Comments on credibility (to get listed, you need to show some basis of what you are saying in one of the four assertions): John Dolver asks: "Judyth, when you went to spend some time in Sweden and go through the process of applying for asylum, part of your claim is that you are a socialist. Could you please take time to outline the argument you have for this, as well as state why you consider this a point of relevance. Further, how do you reconcile that with the proposed murder of the head of state of the sovereign nation of Cuba and performing this task with the Central Intelligence Agency of the sovereign nation the United States of America. Please." Where it goes next: All members are free to respond with ideas on evidence that works for or against any of these assertions (#1-#4). You must give reason to believe what you are suggesting.