Dean Hartwell

Lee, It appeared to me you supported a LEE and HARVEY (or 2-Oswald theory) when you wrote this: I'm sorry but the evidence of two Oswald's is overwhelming. Your rebuttals showed evidence to me of multiple imposters, so it appeared to conflict with the statement above. Which do you mean - 1) a LEE and HARVEY scenario, with one man accused of the JFK assassination and subsequently killed and the other man used to setting the first man up? 2) the same scenario with multiple imposters 3) multiple imposters Dean I have to agree with Jack. I didn't reply to Dean because I couldn't get to grips with the meaning of his message. Maybe he can clarify what he was trying to say? It was this that confused me the most: "Lee has asked fair questions, but from my point of view, his rebuttals do not rule out the possibility of several imposters" I say that because "[my] rebuttals", if you wish to call them that, demonstrate the probability of several impostors. I don't personally think he meant anything disrespectful to you or your work Jack, I just don't think it was written very well. Lee

Jack, Lee had made specific assertions supporting the idea of a LEE and HARVEY. Instead of allowing Jim or Judyth to respond to these assertions, you announced your general conclusion which did not assist anyone in determining whether Lee was correct or not on any counts. Even your comment on who had the driver's license merely re-states your conclusion because it pre-supposes the idea of LEE and HARVEY. My comment had nothing to do with your previous research. It has to do with creating a better conversation among all of us. Dean --- a) I find this difficult to believe. I would think that if LHO was being run as an agent out of Angleton’s office through the ONI then surely Robert Webster would have been run the same way. Webster defected two weeks before Oswald and then miraculously re-defected two weeks before. There was no attempt to generate records to make it seem that Webster had never gone to the USSR. It was common knowledge, reported in the newspapers, according to him he knew Marina Prusakova, he worked for the RAND Corporation, and there seems no special dispensation afforded upon his return to the U.S.A. like the one you believe was going to be afforded Lee if it wasn’t for his “meddling” mother. It doesn’t add up. Why run an agent and then try to eradicate or alter records to show they didn’t go? I would assume that the USSR would keep their records? Newspaper articles can’t go down the Nineteen –Eighty Four memory hole? People like Guy Banister would still have records. b. Whether Lee worked at Pfisterer is not the issue. I think we can all take it as read that Lee worked there. It is the year that he worked there that is of significance. McBride claims he knew Lee at Pfisterer between December 1957 and May 1958. If this is correct then we have a second Oswald in the Marines during this time period. The Warren Commission dealt with this by pushing back the date of Oswald’s employment to 1956.On the subject of Lee’s interest in astrology, McBride claims that Oswald knew very little about the subject. When he was introduced to William Wulf (President of the New Orleans Astronomy Club), Wulf claims that Oswald knew so little about it that he wondered why he wanted to join. Oswald seemed to use the meeting he attended at Wulf’s house to look through the political books and argue with the other members about communism. The exchanges becoming so heated that Wulf’s father threw him out the house. Wulf also claimed to know Oswald in 1958, not 1956 as per the Warren Commission. c) Is the suggestion here that LHO never went to Mexico City within the currently accepted timeframes? I fully appreciate that he was impersonated by person/persons but when did he go? d) It is the Sport Drome event (Sunday, November 17th) that grabs my attention. Oswald was identified by Garland Slack after Oswald shot up Garland targets whilst “burning up ammunition.” The element of this story that gives it a greater meaning is that Slack was insistent that a guy by the name of Frazier from Irving had brought Lee to the range. Earleen Roberts claimed that Lee didn’t go anywhere that day and its greater importance is that Oswald was supposed to be in Irving over the weekend visiting his kids. e) If it's Lee at Sylvia Odio's house then he can't be going south. So, again, LHO didn’t go to Mexico City? f) The thing that gets me about the Red Bird Air Field situation is this. Wayne January stated that on the morning of 20th November 1963 someone who claims to be Oswald was trying to charter a plane. Yes, you are right, he was supposed to be in the TSBD but if this job was a cover then it’s feasible that he could leave whenever he wanted. The problem I have with this is who was running the cover for him in the TSBD? I am familiar with the work of Richard Gilbride regarding his theory that certain employees in the TSBD were involved in the assassination and I am open to this idea. The spanner in the works is this. On Wednesday 20th of November at 10:30am Ralph Yates picked up a man who he claims was Oswald and took him to the TSBD carrying a package that the “Oswald” stated were “…curtain rods.” So, do we again have two Oswald’s to account for? Assuming there isn’t a third in the TSBD. g) He must have worked there at some point. Even if it’s to maintain a cover you have to be there so people see you actually working. It would appear that this guy spent less time at work than Homer Simpson. Here is John Armstrong’s breakdown of who saw LHO at the TSBD at the described times on November 22nd: 8:00 am --- Wesley Frazier, Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, Roy Truly, Jack Dougherty 8:00 am until noon --- William Shelley --- "I saw him periodically all morning" 8:30 am --- Wesley Frazier 9:00 am --- James Jarman 10:00 am --- Roy Lewis, Eddie Piper 11:00 am --- Jack Dougherty, Wesley Frazier 11:30 am --- James Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams 11:50 am --- William Shelley, Danny Arce 12:00 noon --- Jack Dougherty, Eddie Piper 12:15 pm --- Mrs. R.E. Arnold Oswald’s presence in the Jiffy store was at 8:30am. He bought beer resulting in showing his driver license. The store clerk Fred Moore claims that he returned at 9:00am to buy some peco brittle. Now,either Fred Moore is mistaken, the TSBD employees are lying or there are two Oswald’s. Multiple people also saw LHO at the Top Ten Records store on Jefferson at 7:30am, whilst he was driving to the TSBD with BW Frazier. h) Agreed on the points concerning impersonation at the Texas Theater. Although we also have Roger Craig’s sighting of the “double” leaving the TSBD in the Nash Rambler and the other LHO leaving the area by bus and cab. i) There were more than two wallets. j) I would say that’s it’s more than possible that he could drive. But that doesn’t explain the guy driving the Red Ford Falcon. You see, T.F. White saw him sitting in it in a car park a block away from Davis Street. At this point in time Lee Harvey Oswald was already under arrest and on his way to the city jail. k) I would again reiterate that I think it possible he could drive but obviously someone was using his driving license if we are to believe the observations of Fred Moore from the Jiffy Store. I appreciate your replies to my questions Judyth and I will continue to wade through all this information. Lee

Jack, Your reply below does not help a discussion of whether there were a "Lee" and a "Harvey." By stating the distinctions between LEE and HARVEY, you announce your conclusion prematurely. Why not let Jim or Judyth respond to Lee Farley's rebuttal. Lee has asked fair questions, but from my point of view, his rebuttals do not rule out the possibility of several imposters. Dean a) I find this difficult to believe. I would think that if LHO was being run as an agent out of Angleton’s office through the ONI then surely Robert Webster would have been run the same way. Webster defected two weeks before Oswald and then miraculously re-defected two weeks before. There was no attempt to generate records to make it seem that Webster had never gone to the USSR. It was common knowledge, reported in the newspapers, according to him he knew Marina Prusakova, he worked for the RAND Corporation, and there seems no special dispensation afforded upon his return to the U.S.A. like the one you believe was going to be afforded Lee if it wasn’t for his “meddling” mother. It doesn’t add up. Why run an agent and then try to eradicate or alter records to show they didn’t go? I would assume that the USSR would keep their records? Newspaper articles can’t go down the Nineteen –Eighty Four memory hole? People like Guy Banister would still have records. b. Whether Lee worked at Pfisterer is not the issue. I think we can all take it as read that Lee worked there. It is the year that he worked there that is of significance. McBride claims he knew Lee at Pfisterer between December 1957 and May 1958. If this is correct then we have a second Oswald in the Marines during this time period. The Warren Commission dealt with this by pushing back the date of Oswald’s employment to 1956.On the subject of Lee’s interest in astrology, McBride claims that Oswald knew very little about the subject. When he was introduced to William Wulf (President of the New Orleans Astronomy Club), Wulf claims that Oswald knew so little about it that he wondered why he wanted to join. Oswald seemed to use the meeting he attended at Wulf’s house to look through the political books and argue with the other members about communism. The exchanges becoming so heated that Wulf’s father threw him out the house. Wulf also claimed to know Oswald in 1958, not 1956 as per the Warren Commission. c) Is the suggestion here that LHO never went to Mexico City within the currently accepted timeframes? I fully appreciate that he was impersonated by person/persons but when did he go? d) It is the Sport Drome event (Sunday, November 17th) that grabs my attention. Oswald was identified by Garland Slack after Oswald shot up Garland targets whilst “burning up ammunition.” The element of this story that gives it a greater meaning is that Slack was insistent that a guy by the name of Frazier from Irving had brought Lee to the range. Earleen Roberts claimed that Lee didn’t go anywhere that day and its greater importance is that Oswald was supposed to be in Irving over the weekend visiting his kids. e) If it's Lee at Sylvia Odio's house then he can't be going south. So, again, LHO didn’t go to Mexico City? f) The thing that gets me about the Red Bird Air Field situation is this. Wayne January stated that on the morning of 20th November 1963 someone who claims to be Oswald was trying to charter a plane. Yes, you are right, he was supposed to be in the TSBD but if this job was a cover then it’s feasible that he could leave whenever he wanted. The problem I have with this is who was running the cover for him in the TSBD? I am familiar with the work of Richard Gilbride regarding his theory that certain employees in the TSBD were involved in the assassination and I am open to this idea. The spanner in the works is this. On Wednesday 20th of November at 10:30am Ralph Yates picked up a man who he claims was Oswald and took him to the TSBD carrying a package that the “Oswald” stated were “…curtain rods.” So, do we again have two Oswald’s to account for? Assuming there isn’t a third in the TSBD. g) He must have worked there at some point. Even if it’s to maintain a cover you have to be there so people see you actually working. It would appear that this guy spent less time at work than Homer Simpson. Here is John Armstrong’s breakdown of who saw LHO at the TSBD at the described times on November 22nd: 8:00 am --- Wesley Frazier, Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, Roy Truly, Jack Dougherty 8:00 am until noon --- William Shelley --- "I saw him periodically all morning" 8:30 am --- Wesley Frazier 9:00 am --- James Jarman 10:00 am --- Roy Lewis, Eddie Piper 11:00 am --- Jack Dougherty, Wesley Frazier 11:30 am --- James Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams 11:50 am --- William Shelley, Danny Arce 12:00 noon --- Jack Dougherty, Eddie Piper 12:15 pm --- Mrs. R.E. Arnold Oswald’s presence in the Jiffy store was at 8:30am. He bought beer resulting in showing his driver license. The store clerk Fred Moore claims that he returned at 9:00am to buy some peco brittle. Now,either Fred Moore is mistaken, the TSBD employees are lying or there are two Oswald’s. Multiple people also saw LHO at the Top Ten Records store on Jefferson at 7:30am, whilst he was driving to the TSBD with BW Frazier. h) Agreed on the points concerning impersonation at the Texas Theater. Although we also have Roger Craig’s sighting of the “double” leaving the TSBD in the Nash Rambler and the other LHO leaving the area by bus and cab. i) There were more than two wallets. j) I would say that’s it’s more than possible that he could drive. But that doesn’t explain the guy driving the Red Ford Falcon. You see, T.F. White saw him sitting in it in a car park a block away from Davis Street. At this point in time Lee Harvey Oswald was already under arrest and on his way to the city jail. k) I would again reiterate that I think it possible he could drive but obviously someone was using his driving license if we are to believe the observations of Fred Moore from the Jiffy Store. I appreciate your replies to my questions Judyth and I will continue to wade through all this information. Lee

[From Lee Farley] Hi Dean ... Hope your book goes well - let us know when it's ready Lee Thank you, Lee. My book is available at this link: http://www.amazon.com/Dead-Men-Talking-Con...4150&sr=1-4 I would welcome any review from anyone interested. The book is best suited for those new to the JFK, RFK and 9/11 events and those undecided about them. Dean

May I refer you to post #2 in this thread please? That just about sums the whole sorry saga up. I doubt Peter McGuire is an astrologist or fortune teller but his comments were certainly a great precursor as to what has followed. The polarising effect that JVB has on people's minds is something approaching pathological in nature. It's a shame you left your call for CT harmony until post #1137 (that's one-thousand-one-hundred-and-thirty-seven)! If it had of been in post #3 (where it belonged) I would have a little more respect for your message. Instead, you acted as a cheerleader for one side of the argument over the other. As they stand, your comments smack of some sort of intellectual bi-polar disorder after previously asking me (and others) to stand aside if we weren't getting anything from the thread. To claim that I have made a fallacy of "logic" by creating a "straw-man" and to claim it with a straight face does your own argument (of moving forward shoulder to shoulder) little good. This "community" is currently polarised on this issue. Friendships are falling apart. The invective is abundently clear in both public and private messages. This is the second time you have misrepresented the context of my messages. If this is how you extrapolate meaning from the things you see, hear and feel then it's no wonder you have offered little in the overall progression of the JVB story. I can only assume that you believe the best way to exstinguish a fire in a burning house is to throw gasoline on it. You used the same method, of what you must consider to be an axiom of logic, with Jack White's comments about Ruth Paine. And for the record - I neither "believe" nor "disbelieve" JVB. I will come to a conclusion as to what I think about all this at a later date. Once someone goes and gets a bucket of water... Lee, You have made some good points in this thread. But your use of the phrase "intellectual bi-polar disorder" is misplaced. From the context, it appears you mean to say that another's argument was inconsistent. But bi-polar disorder is more complicated. The two poles refer to mania, or a speeded-up mind, and depression, a slowed-down mind. I know this because I suffer from this problem. Some days my mind is slow and I am contemplative, while other days I speed things up and get many things done. It is a difference in pace but not an inconsistency. Other people with this problem suffer mania and depression at the same time or go back in forth in quick cycles. It is clear to me that you mean no harm by what you write. This disorder is misunderstood in society and was used by some to blame a man who attempted to kill guards recently at the Pentagon. If we understood mental illness better, we would distinguish it from hopelessness and insanity, which are completely different issues. Dean

Hello to all who have participated in this discussion over Judyth Vary Baker and thanks to John Simkin for allowing me to join: Most of you may not have heard of me. Briefly, I recently published a book that presented a case against the government for causing infamous events, including the murder of President Kennedy. It is called Dead Men Talking: Consequences of Government Lies. I conclude that Lee Oswald was innocent. I will disclose my bias in this discussion: I have publicly voiced my support for Judyth. Though this debate has gone well over 1,000 posts with many assertions made by many people whom I have respect for in the JFK community, the debate will not reach any consensus. Jim Fetzer and others have produced much relevant evidence in support of Judyth and everyone is free to interpret it as they believe. I have no qualms with those who disagree with my point of view, but am concerned about how we come to our conclusion as to her and to other issues. I will draw an analogy: Suppose someone tells the boss of a company that they witnessed an employee stealing company equipment. No videotape or anything, just one’s word against another. What does the boss do? It will probably depend on which employee they perceive as the more loyal or the more valuable. They want to be fair, but in reality they are setting the burden of proof for one too high to reach. If the boss sides with the accused, the accuser becomes an Inconvenient Witness. It serves no purpose for anyone to make Judyth an Inconvenient Witness. Whoever can articulate their position on any issue based on the facts and the weighing of facts for their relevance will have my respect. Thank you all for your time.

I have studied the JFK assassination for thirty years and recently published some of my findings in my book Dead Men Talking: Consequences of Government Lies. My main focus is upon the innocence of Lee Oswald. In that and other aspects of the case, I rely upon my legal studies. Law school helped me to understand to the best of my ability both sides of an issue and to use logic in selecting the most relevant facts in making a particular argument. I have not been able to pass California's Bar Exam and am undecided as to whether I will try again. Good arguments go nowhere if they are presented with anything less than respect for those who listen.