David Von Pein
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Posts posted by David Von Pein
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2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
Dead right, no turn, no dogleg. And it ain't no sketch. Its [sic] an illustration of the route. It proves there was a disagreement about the route.
Bull. It shows the motorcade turning directly onto STEMMONS from MAIN. And how does one manage to get from Main to Stemmons?
Answer --- Hop over to Houston and then Elm. That's how. Traffic is not permitted to go directly from MAIN to STEMMONS. Therefore, as I mentioned before in this thread, the HOUSTON and ELM turns are, in effect, IMPLIED in this 11/22 DMN map, even though those two turns aren't spelled out specifically on the map.
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27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
That so-called evidence has already been throughly discredited many times over.
So YOU say. But I certainly don't hold that opinion. Not even close, in fact. And NONE of the official investigative bodies held that opinion about the evidence either. (But, naturally, nothing the WC or HSCA ever said means a hill of beans to you, does it Jim?)
Of course, CTers have a very different definition of what the word "discredited" means when compared to an LNer. Take Jim DiEugenio's beliefs regarding Linnie Randle, Buell Frazier, and the "large paper bag", for instance. Jim actually thinks that Frazier and Randle just invented the bag. They just made it up (per Jim)! So that ultra-silly belief contributes to his overall belief that the "bag evidence" has been discredited.
To me, though, a true case of something (or somebody) being "discredited" would be Roger D. Craig. If that guy's tales about seeing "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the TSBD rifle haven't been "discredited", then nothing has ever been discredited in any murder case ever.
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Rich Pope said:
I have the exact rifle and scope Oswald supposedly used.
David Von Pein said:Yeah, sure you do. And it's got "C2766" stamped on it too, right?
Rick McTague said:Of course, he meant the exact same make and model of rifle and exact same make and model of the scope.
I know that's what he MEANT. But that's not what he SAID, is it?
As for Rich calling me a "jerk" and saying that I'm only interested in "stirring the pot" just to get people "riled up" ----
Well, I think it's a good idea for an LNer (like me) to occasionally remind people of what the ACTUAL EVIDENCE is in the JFK and Tippit cases, and to spell it out in black and white. And that "actual evidence" isn't going anywhere anytime soon. OSWALD'S rifle and the pictures of OSWALD holding the Kennedy murder weapon and OSWALD'S lies and the eyewitness testimony to OSWALD murdering J.D. Tippit are always going to be there. And it's important to remind people about all of that "Oswald" stuff every now and again---so that the CTers don't get the silly idea that their preposterous "Oswald Never Shot Anybody" theories are the only theories on the table when it comes to Internet discussions pertaining to the Kennedy and Tippit murders.
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1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:
I have the exact rifle and scope Oswald supposedly used.
Yeah, sure you do.
And it's got "C2766" stamped on it too, right?
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2 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:
LHO had no connection to the M/C after he left NOLA. He went to Mexico City, and Ruth and Marina drove their belongings back to Irving.
Carcano Rifle C2766 was Lee Harvey Oswald's gun, as of March 20, 1963.
(Tons of paperwork to prove that fact.)
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html
A rifle was seen by Marina in the Paine garage in Sept. or Oct. of 1963.
That rifle was missing from its known storage location in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/22/63.
C2766 was the JFK murder weapon.
C2766 was found on the sixth floor, TSBD, on 11/22.
A newborn baby could do this math. But for some reason, it always eludes a conspiracy theorist.
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7 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:
See, look who wants you to waste your time, going through all of this over and over and over again.
Yep. The merry-go-round with the ABO CTers never ends, does it? They'll continue to ignore all the signs of LHO's guilt till the cows come a-knockin'.
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1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:
Could one person, Lee Harvey Oswald, pull off by himself---with no help from anyone else---what he is accused of doing on November 22, 1963? To me, the answer is "no".
Why not?
Oswald's rifle was definitely the murder weapon.
Oswald's prints are on the rifle.
Oswald's prints are on various objects inside the Sniper's Nest (where we know President Kennedy's assassin was located).
Oswald definitely lied to Wes Frazier (and the police) about "the package" and its contents. (So we know the package contained something LHO wanted to hide.)
Oswald had easy access to the sixth floor on 11/22.
Oswald had rifle training in the Marine Corps (which certainly made him a better rifleman than your average guy on the street).
It all adds up to ----- Oswald. And nobody else.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
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14 hours ago, David Lifton said:
THE PHOTOGRAPH OF JC AT LOVE FIELD....
It shows Connally standing beneath the wing of AF-1...and you can just see, from the look on his face, that he is clearly distressed (if not frightened).
My own reconstruction was something like this: that he (JC) had been "reassured" on the flight, from FW to Dallas (which was just a ten minute flight [as if one were flying from Pasadena to LAX] that everything was going to be just fine; and that, contrary to what he might be hearing, the plans had changed, and there was going to be no motorcade.
But then, as he exited the plane, he could immediately see that he had been lied to, and--to be blunt--was not just worried, but scared.
Thank you, David L., for your reply. I appreciate the information.
I think, however, that it's a very difficult task to try and determine in any definitive way what a person's overall demeanor and attitude might be by just looking at one photograph taken of that person. If you'll recall, Johnnie Cochran attempted a similar trick when he was defending O.J. Simpson for double murder in 1995, when Cochran tried to convince the jury through the use of a videotape that Simpson was very happy and congenial just a few hours before his ex-wife was murdered, and therefore Simpson couldn't possibly be the real killer. But, as everybody knows, sometimes looks can be very deceiving.
Now, if I wanted to engage in another round of Dueling Photographs, I would then make use of the picture below, which shows Governor John Connally standing up in the Presidential limousine at Love Field in Dallas prior to JFK getting into the car. And look at the expression on Connally's face. Does he look worried or concerned or frightened here? I don't think so. But does this picture mean that the Governor wasn't worried about anything at that particular moment? No, I don't think it proves that either....
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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:
Is it or is it not Secret Service protocol to not drop below 25-35mph and not take a slow turn like Main to Houston or Houston to Elm...
If the route included the turn onto Houston it would be a major breech of safety protocol...
Well, let's just examine a picture from a different JFK motorcade....
There's this photo below taken in Fort Worth on the morning of 11/22/63 (with the President standing up in the car). Do you think the car is going above 25-35 MPH here? Not a chance. Particularly since the President is standing at the time and the car is turning a corner.
And also take note of the fact that there are no Secret Service agents at all riding outside any of the cars here (or walking alongside JFK's car). The SS follow-up car in the Fort Worth motorcade wasn't the Cadillac stretch limo that was used in Dallas. In Fort Worth, we can see that the SS used just a regular sedan and all of the agents had to sit INSIDE the car (while keeping the doors open slightly so they could get out quickly if needed). There were no running boards to stand on. And, also unlike Dallas, there were no built-in steps (or platforms) on the back of JFK's car in Fort Worth either. Which means, from those specific standpoints I just mentioned, the "security" that was in place in Dallas was actually better than the security utilized for the Fort Worth parade just an hour earlier.
But to hear conspiracy theorists tell the story, the security surrounding JFK's limo in Dallas was the worst that has ever existed. But when we look at just a few photos of other Kennedy motorcades, such as the one below from Fort Worth and these additional examples, we can see that that just is not the case at all.
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53 minutes ago, David Josephs said:
Is it or is it not Secret Service protocol to not drop below 25-35mph and not take a slow turn like Main to Houston or Houston to Elm...?
That's absolute nonsense, David, and you surely must know it. The Secret Service took President Kennedy around HUNDREDS of regular 90-degree turns (like the one from Main to Houston) during JFK's three years in office. Therefore, it's ridiculous to think that the regular Main-to-Houston turn was against "SS protocol". It obviously WASN'T.
As for the sharper Elm turn --- that turn was obviously not a major concern to the Secret Service on 11/22 either---otherwise they WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT. Period.
Plus, we know the limo totally STOPPED on two occasions during the Dallas parade. And if you think slowing the car to below 35 MPH is a protocol violation (which it obviously is not, since the car was going BELOW that speed for almost the ENTIRE motorcade through Dallas), then what would be a COMPLETE STOP in your view? That must be a horrific "violation", right?
The CTers who scream "IT WAS AGAINST SECRET SERVICE RULES" are merely repeating what is very likely yet another conspiracy-flavored myth. I doubt any such "Rules" even existed in '63. And even if they DID exist "on the books", it's obvious that such "Rules" were not always strictly followed. Nor COULD they be, unless you believe that the SS would be whisking JFK through cities and towns at above 44 MPH (which is the figure I usually hear from the Conspiracy Mongers when this "protocol" topic pops up). And that's just silly. The motorcades through large crowds never went that fast.
QuoteIf the route included the turn onto Houston it would be a major breech of safety protocol...
That's total B.S.
And you HAVE to know why.
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3 hours ago, John Butler said:
You want to play Dueling Photographs, eh? Okay. My turn....
Mr. Von Pein should have picked better photos to make his point. Altgens 5 is heavily altered. He shouldn't have shown the Zapruder frame and contrasted it to the Bronson still frame. The people who make up the area known as Mannequin Row (those people who are lined up between the R L Thornton (light post) area) and the Stemmons Freeway are for the most part not in the Bronson still.
Oh, yes, I forgot about having to factor in the constant refrain coming from Conspiracy Fantasists of: "All Of These Pictures Are Fakes, Therefore I Can't Use Them To Prove My Point".
So sorry.
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On 6/6/2018 at 1:19 PM, David Josephs said:
Prior to Nov 19th the route would be MAIN to STEMMONS as shown by the diagram
On Nov 19th the detail of that non-turn turned into a TSBD corner turn is spelled out - the earlier created map has no turn...
Yeah, David, but the HOUSTON and ELM turns are still nevertheless IMPLIED in all of the various maps that say only MAIN to STEMMONS, including the 11/22 DMN map that CTers love to talk about so much. Because the only proper and legal way to get from MAIN to STEMMONS is....
Via Houston then Elm.
So from that "proper and legal" perspective, the CTers who love to chant "The Motorcade Route Was Changed" are still cooked --- because unless you want to believe that the Secret Service was planning to hop the concrete divider that separates Main from Elm, then the Nov. 22nd DMN newspaper actually DOES, in effect, tell us that the limo was going to have to travel down both Houston Street and Elm Street in that truncated map that was published on the DMN front page on 11/22.
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On 6/4/2018 at 3:34 AM, David Lifton said:
...this same deceitfulness occurred on 11/22/63, on the flight from Fort Worth to Dallas, when Gov JC [John Connally] was, once again, assured--while the plane was in flight (from FW to Dallas)--that there would be "no motorcade," only to see the opposite, when he deplaned, and could see the cars all lined up for a motorcade.
David L.,
How in the world can the above "Connally Still Didn't Know About A Motorcade As Late As 11/22" situation have possibly existed when we know that practically ALL of the rest of Dallas and Fort Worth was aware---as early as Nov. 19!---that a motorcade was definitely going to take place in Dallas? It doesn't make sense.
Am I supposed to actually believe that Gov. Connally, who was himself organizing many of the details pertaining to Kennedy's trip to Texas, was kept in total darkness as to the fact that any motorcade was going to take place in Dallas until he actually stepped off of Air Force One at Love Field on November 22nd---and even though Connally himself was going to be riding in that very motorcade that he supposedly knows nothing about until the very last minute??!
That's impossible for me to believe.
And I guess it would mean that Gov. Connally, who spent the night in Fort Worth on November 21, didn't see any of the Dallas-area papers that day (or evening), including this Dallas Times Herald which features a big map of the Dallas motorcade on the front page--and above the fold. (Maybe the Governor, though, wasn't big on reading newspapers when he was away from Austin. But if he had been exposed to that newspaper that day---Nov. 21st---he certainly would have been "tipped off" to the motorcade that was planned for the next day.)
What is your source, David L., for this sentence you recently wrote?....
"Gov JC was, once again, assured--while the plane was in flight (from FW to Dallas)--that there would be "no motorcade"."
Can you provide a link to your source for this rather remarkable and startling assertion (if such a link is available)? Thank you.
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58 minutes ago, David Josephs said:
We need to remember that the route was changed for the single purpose of framing Oswald...
Is there any chance that conspiracy theorists will ever stop repeating the lie about the motorcade route being "changed"? Because no matter how many times CTers/Fantasists repeat that myth, it will never become a fact. It will always be a lie. And provably so. For the 54th time now, the proof that the route wasn't "changed" at the last minute (or even in the last three days) exists in Commission Exhibits 1362 and 1363. I guess CTers just refuse to read.
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21 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:
...those people lining Elm...when did they get there? Were they there before the limo made the turn on Houston?
Yes. That's obvious from just this one Z-Film frame. JFK's car is not on Elm yet, and both Elm and Houston are packed with people. (And please don't tell me, as some CTers have in the past, that all these women on Elm are "Cardboard Cutouts")....
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18 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:
My hypothesis is that before the President landed in Dallas, no ordinary person knew for sure what the exact route would be. They knew certain parts of the route for sure but this zig-zag to Elm couldn't have been anticipated. Was it a possibility? Yes. Was it a certainty? Nope.
You're wrong, Rich. The Houston and Elm turns were most definitely a "certainty" as of the morning of Tuesday, November 19th.
Repeating my earlier comment (and listen to the radio and TV coverage I provide here too, which has the announcers informing the Dallas citizens that "Houston" and "Elm" are going to see motorcade action in downtown Dallas that day)....
"The reality is, of course, that those people...knew where to stand along Houston and Elm Streets that day because they all knew, prior to the motorcade ever arriving in Dealey Plaza, that JFK's motorcade would be coming down those exact streets (Houston and Elm). And they knew that information because it was published--in detail--in both of the Dallas newspapers on Tuesday, November 19th, and again in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday, November 21st (in addition to being announced on both radio [at 4:04] and television [at 28:15] between 11:30 AM and 12:00 noon on November 22nd)." -- DVP
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OK. Whatever. Doesn't matter a whit to me what you do.
I guess I'll just continue to ~shrug~ in bewilderment at yet another murky and cloudy post penned by a JFK conspiracy theorist. (Nothing new there, of course.)
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2 hours ago, Rich Pope said:
Your imagination doesn't match the photographic evidence. Many of these people [in the Bronson photo] are walking from Main Street over to Elm. They were not waiting for the President on Elm.
You want to play Dueling Photographs, eh? Okay. My turn....
Did all of those people we see lining both sides of Houston Street (plus the many women we see lined up on the north side of Elm Street in the Zapruder Film) suddenly dash to those positions from Main Street just seconds before they saw the President's car approaching the Plaza? (I kind of doubt they did.)
Correcting another inaccurate Rich Pope statement....
It's misleading to say that the people we see running toward Elm Street in this Charles Bronson photograph were "walking from Main Street" (as you claimed). Those people were almost certainly running toward Elm after having just watched the President pass by their position on (or very near) the corner of Houston and Main Streets.
Those bystanders who were initially situated on (and near) the corner of Main & Houston could see that the unique set of turns that were coming up for JFK's car would enable them to catch a second glimpse of the President and First Lady when the limousine turned onto Elm Street, so they ran over to Elm (from Houston & Main) for a second look. But they certainly wouldn't have been camped out further west on Main Street when they began their dash toward Elm. All of those parade watchers very likely started their dash from the Main/Houston corner.
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39 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:
...based on the newspaper accounts[,] neither Oswald nor any Dallas resident could have know the exact motorcade route, for conflicting accounts were published.
Then apparently you, Rich, must think that all of the many people who gathered on both Houston Street and Elm Street prior to the motorcade arriving in Dealey Plaza --- including the likes of Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Jim Altgens, the Willis family, Charles Brehm, Bill & Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Mary Woodward, and all of the people who elected to watch the parade from the steps of the Book Depository Building --- just got lucky and guessed correctly that the President's car was going to turn down Houston and then onto Elm. Is that correct?
The reality is, of course, that those people I mentioned above (and many more) knew where to stand along Houston and Elm Streets that day because they all knew, prior to the motorcade ever arriving in Dealey Plaza, that JFK's motorcade would be coming down those exact streets (Houston and Elm). And they knew that information because it was published--in detail--in both of the Dallas newspapers on Tuesday, November 19th, and again in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday, November 21st (in addition to being announced on both radio and television between 11:30 AM and 12:00 noon on November 22nd).
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10 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:
The CIA-did-it CTers look sillier every year.
A-men!
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1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:
I'm fully aware of who he thinks he is
And who's that, pray tell?
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1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:
I was a Detroit cop for 20 years. You haven't even scratched disagreeable
Thank you.
So, at whom were you aiming your second post above? Anybody in particular?
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6 minutes ago, Evan Marshall said:
I've always thought that is was possible to disagree without being disagreeable!
Was my two-word post --- "It does" --- too "disagreeable" for you, Evan?
Or were you just speaking in general terms and not to anyone in particular? ~shrug~
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2 hours ago, Evan Marshall said:
The Warren Commission And Their Ego ....
Because Dallas happened before Watergate AND because the WC thought they would never have to explain their ineptitude or willful negligence[,] we have countless leads to chase. I read the 26 volumes twice and that was enough to convince me there was a conspiracy. Your mileage may vary.
It does....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/warren-commission-objectives.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/warren-commission-got-it-right.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#The-Warren-Commission
Who changed the motorcade route?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by David Von Pein
Just like with the word "discredited", CTers also have their own unique definition of the word "lied".
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-124/The Way Vincent Bugliosi Presents The CTers' Arguments
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/#Reclaiming-History-Errors