David Von Pein
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Posts posted by David Von Pein
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16 hours ago, David Lifton said:
Please review what you have posted and modify (or remove) all this stuff which miss-states [sic] my position and belief...
Ten-Four.
Previous post removed. (And removed from my website too.)
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...[entire post deleted by author]...
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8 minutes ago, David Lifton said:
Roffman’s highly analytic book, as I recall, was largely devoted to establishing (his view that) LHO couldn’t have been at the sixth floor window and then downstairs at the coke machine, some 90 seconds (or less) later. Now that’s a debatable proposition...
Well, not really....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/reconstructing-steps-of-assassin.html
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1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:
Sorry, you're completely wrong. We have the newspaper clippings showing the parade route kept changing many different times...
Here ya go, David L. .... you can borrow this icon from me. It comes in handy every time somebody repeats these idiotic words --- "the parade route kept changing"....
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David Lifton said:
Do you think that Oswald and Kennedy "crossed paths" by accident? .... As the chronology plainly reveals, the motorcade route was deliberately designed to create this "crossed paths" situation. .... Moreover, it was a route that had been selected and agreed upon days before, starting around November 14th. .... What we have here is important evidence of premeditation in terms of the design of this crime, and recognize it for what it is.
No, what we really have here---with respect to the motorcade route---is a natural and logical and ordinary and non-sinister decision being made by the United States Secret Service (in conjunction with the Dallas Police Department) to take President Kennedy's motorcade down Elm Street in Dallas, Texas, in order to get the Chief Executive from Main Street to the Stemmons Freeway and then on to the Trade Mart.
It is the conspiracy theorists of the world who insist upon turning ordinary happenstance into a massive pre-planned conspiracy plot.
And to think, as many conspiracy theorists do, that the very ordinary and non-conspiratorial way in which Lee Harvey Oswald became an employee of the Texas School Book Depository in mid-October of 1963 (a full MONTH before the Dallas motorcade was even finalized) can somehow be turned into an act of "conspiratorial planning" is not reasonable thinking at all, in my opinion.
Plus, there's this very important "motorcade-related" article [below] that appeared in the Dallas Morning News exactly one week before the assassination, which paints a dim picture for there being any motorcade drive through downtown Dallas AT ALL on 11/22/63. Do some conspiracists (like David Lifton) think this 11/15/63 article is nothing but a lie or a ruse, just to throw people off? Or do some CTers really believe that a plot to murder the President on Elm Street in Dallas wasn't even conceived until AFTER this newspaper article was published on November 15th?....
"Dallas sponsors of a luncheon said they expect President Kennedy to travel between the site and Dallas Love Field by the most direct traffic artery. They see little chance that the President will change his plans to include a motorcade through Downtown Dallas." -- Dallas Morning News; November 15, 1963
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4 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:
Question - what London trial? What year?
"On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald". The Bugliosi vs. Spence trial in 1986.
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58 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:
The Linotype machine made its debut in the 1880's. Hand- setting type was long gone by the 1950's.
I'm surprised you wouldn't have researched that. But maybe I shouldn't be, since it's not mentioned in the WC report or in Bugliosi's book. Perhaps that's why you haven't discovered the fact that the Linotype was already on its way out in the 1970s.
It's OK to look outside the WC and Bugliosi for background, Mr. Von Pein. Truly it is. There is reliable information out there that is NOT covered by Vince or the WC.
HONEST.
Gee, thanks. (I guess.)
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3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
...there is a debate going on at DPF [ Deep Politics Forum --- HERE ] about the late witness to the Tippit killing, namely Jack Tatum.
This is the guy the HSCA discovered and said that Oswald delivered the coup de grace to Tippit by shooting at his head while he was on the ground.
Looking at the map, was not his car at 10th and Denver Street? Was he driving on Denver at the time? Could he have really seen all that from that distance, down to the type of gun?
Or do I have his position wrong?
You've got Tatum's position wrong, Jim. Tatum was on Tenth Street (having turned onto 10th from Denver) when he saw the shooting.
Jack Tatum re-created the shooting from his vantage point in his car for the PBS documentary "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?" in 1993 (at 22:56 and 24:57 in the video below)....
https://drive.google.com / Video / "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?" (PBS-TV) (1993) (Part 3)
Tatum was also a witness at the 1986 Bugliosi/Spence mock trial in London, but unfortunately his segment was completely cut out of the televised version shown on Showtime Cable TV in '86. However, a couple of important excerpts from his testimony are revealed in Vincent Bugliosi's 2007 book. [See my next post.]
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This month (May), I celebrated my 10th Anniversary on YouTube (2008—2018). 🌟🎆
(No gifts over $5, please. I'm not greedy.)
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52 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:
..."highest Potus protection security" ever thought of in Dallas history ( Jessie Curry )...
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12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
Gene, you are aware JFK and LBJ made a campaign trip through Texas including Dallas in 1960.
http://kennedy-photos.blogspot.com/2013/10/kennedy-gallery-354.html
September 1960....
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23 hours ago, David Lifton said:
The Dallas Morning News routinely ran multiple editions every single day, each one bearing a different number of stars. (So there was a "one-star", a "two-star," etc. up to about "5 stars"). This has been true for decades.
I had no idea this was true. (And from the posts I'm seeing from various other EF Forum members, many people here didn't know about the "multiple editions" either.)
It seems almost impossible for me to believe that the SAME newspaper office could have the capacity and the manpower (not to mention the TIME, which is always so short, it seems, in the newspaper industry) to churn out up to FIVE separate and unique editions of the very same paper. That sounds incredible to me (but evidently true). And in the 1960s, we're talking a time when the typeface for each article in the paper had to be manually set up by hand. (Isn't that correct, David S. Lifton?) How on Earth did they have enough time and resources to pump out so many editions every single day of the year? I suppose it's much easier today, what with computerization and digitization and all.
Anyway, thanks for the "multiple editions" information, David L.; it's certainly something I didn't realize until now.
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2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
And Von Pein keeps on posting that story he posted days ago about the route being set by the 19th. Ignoring two facts:
1. The later stories on the 20th and 22nd in the DMN which contradict the dogleg route.
2. Palamara's four witnesses who say the route was changed 24 hours before the motorcade.
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40 minutes ago, Ty Carpenter said:
Reading briefly through this thread, it appears there is really no consensus as to how we got to Elm St. that day.
Does anyone else think it may be possible that the lead car with Curry driving just led the motorcade down that route? And the SS just followed them?
Oh, come on, Ty. That's silly. The motorcade route was planned and mapped out a week before Nov. 22. And, as I have been pointing out for many days now, everybody who subscribed to the Dallas newspapers knew about the Elm Street turn on Nov. 19! Just read the paper. Surely nobody thinks the Dallas Morning News and Times Herald were part of a plot to take the President in front of the Depository....
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Thanks, David L., for taking the time to write out all your thoughts on this matter in this Education Forum post.
I, too, had seen all those references to "the selected route" that appear in the Secret Service Report (CD3), but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some specific reference within CD3 to "Elm Street" or "Houston Street" or "Stemmons Freeway" (relating to the "test drive" of the motorcade route).
I see now that you are utilizing ALL of CD3, in its totality, to arrive at your conclusion that the motorcade route was never changed (and I agree), including the exhibits of the 11/19/63 Dallas newspapers which clearly spell out the motorcade route (in text!), including the Houston-to-Elm turn.
DAVID LIFTON SAID:
Will someone please knock real hard on DiEugenio’s cranium to see if someone is there; and if so (i.e., if the message is answered), please point out that the Dallas Times Herald of November 19, 1963 (as documented in Exhibit 6E of CD 3) published the motorcade route, and that the text of the story clearly spells out that the motorade will pass through Dealey Plaza, by going from Main (right) onto Houston, and then (left) onto Elm, and then out Stemmons Freeway.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, David. I "knocked real hard" on Jimmy's cranium just three days ago with words that are almost identical to what you just said....
"The Houston-to-Elm dogleg was described in the November 19th Dallas newspapers, which makes perfect sense considering what I just said above about the route being officially announced on Nov. 18. Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th [as seen in CE1363]. .... Some conspiracy myths just refuse to die, don't they? And "The Motorcade Route Was Changed" junk is apparently one such myth that I guess will be with us until the end of time." -- DVP; May 26, 2018 -
19 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
In other words, nothing I have ever said about JFK's foreign policy, the Garrison investigation, the ARRB, writers like Waldron and Hartmann, etc etc all of which I have researched and been recognized as an authority on for years by many people, all of that is out the window with you.
I guess I was wrong, Jim. You CAN make "perfect sense" after all. You just did with the quote above.
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6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
Oh I see, it's and "Go Hoosiers!"
And with that, Good Night.
Hey! You do have an apostrophe key after all! Excellent!
And, switching sports for a moment, even though I've been a Reds fan since 1970....
"Go Dodgers!"
http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/2012/04/cincinnati-reds-baseball-april-15-1972.html
Good night to you, Jim.
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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:
...is it too late back in Hoosier country and you fell asleep watching Gene Hackman win the championship with Dennis Hopper?
Hey, that's a fine film. (One of my favorites.) And featured on my Classic Movies Website as well....
QuoteThat is not the argument partner. You have not countered anything I said, or Thompson has said or Art Snyder said. In fact, I do not even think you understand the arguments. And there is also something else: its [sic] Darrell Weatherly who worked out a mathematical equation about the smear which was in Livingstone's book.
Let me know when you try and counter it.
(Sound of crickets in the night. E mail to McAdams. Nothing. E mail to Davison, "Who is Weatherly?" Email to Reitzes. "Hey man, what is a smear?")
Nah. I don't need to e-mail anybody on this. I like my last post aimed at you much better....
"Just keep looking at this super-slo-mo clip over and over a few times. And then try to convince yourself that the obvious forward motion of President Kennedy's head that you are seeing is being caused ONLY by a "smear" in the film. Good luck in convincing yourself of that fairy tale." -- DVP
Only a "smear"!!??? LOL. What a crock.
P.S. to Jim --- Please learn how to spell the word it's. Do you ever spell it correctly (using the apostrophe)? I can't count the number of times I've had to add the proper punctuation to your posts when I'm transferring them to my site in order to maintain This Complete Archive Of The Conspiracy-Related Fantasies Of One James DiEugenio Of Los Angeles, California, USA. Thank you. (And apparently the misspelling of "it's" is contagious around here, because David Lifton just did it in his last post too, plus someone else did it just yesterday. Maybe it's an "EF thing". Strange.)
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18 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
Absolutely hilarious.
"Hardcore"?
I never used that word, Jimmy. I said "hardline". (But I guess there's not too much difference between the two words.)
QuoteWhat the heck is Lifton[,] Davey? Body snatching, body alteration, fake Zapruder film.
Oh, Lifton is, without question, most certainly an "outer fringe" conspiracy fantasist of the First Order. His theories are as wacky as all get out and totally unbelievable and dead wrong as all get out too. I've been saying that for years.
But there are some occasions when Mr. Lifton (unlike James DiEugenio) makes perfect sense. And David L. has exhibited that "perfect sense" trait on several occasions in the last few years at this very forum. And his last post in this thread is one such example. Although, as I mentioned, I cannot find any support for his claim that the SS Report (CD3) shows that the Nov. 14 "test drive" took the agents down Elm Street. That's nowhere to be found in CD3. And I just now read the entire CD3 document (again).
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Thanks, David Lifton, for your post above regarding the genesis of the motorcade route.
Here's a link to Commission Document No. 3 (also known as the "Report Of The U.S. Secret Service On The Assassination Of President Kennedy"). To go directly to "Appendix A", which David Lifton specifically mentioned in his above post, Click Here.
I suppose that most hardline conspiracy theorists probably contend that most of the things we find in CD3 are simply lies invented by James Rowley's Secret Service in the days and weeks after the assassination (seeing as how that SS Report is dated December 18, 1963).
Mr. Lifton is correct when he said a "test drive" of the Dallas motorcade route was driven by police and Secret Service officials on November 14th. However, I can't find any mention at all of any specific streets---Elm Street or otherwise---being mentioned on this page of that Secret Service Report (CD3) where it talks about the November 14th "test drive" (as Lifton calls it).
So when David Lifton said this in his last post....
"Asst. Dallas Police Chief Batchelor and Forrest Sorrels did a "test-drive" from Love Field to the Trade Mart, going through Dealey Plaza, and then via Stemmons Freeway, which meant entering Stemmons from Elm, which meant driving through Dealey Plaza exactly as the JFK motorcade drove that route on 11/22/63."
....I'm wondering where within Commission Document No. 3 Mr. Lifton found the information to support the specific "entering Stemmons from Elm" portion of that post?
I, myself, have no doubt that Lawson and Sorrels did, indeed, travel on Elm Street during that Nov. 14 "test drive", but I just can't find a specific reference to the Houston-to-Elm turn in the SS Report. If you can find one, David L., please point me to it.
BTW, on Page 12 of that SS Report, we find this information which totally demolishes the idea put forth by people such as Fletcher Prouty (and others) about how every single building and window should have been checked by law enforcement prior to the Dallas parade. As we can see here in CD3, no such practice was adhered to by the Secret Service in 1963:
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Jim,
Just keep looking at this super-slo-mo clip over and over a few times. And then try to convince yourself that the obvious forward motion of President Kennedy's head that you are seeing is being caused ONLY by a "smear" in the film. Good luck in convincing yourself of that fairy tale.
.gif)
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On 5/27/2018 at 7:20 PM, James DiEugenio said:
The whole thing about the 1-2 frame forward movement was misrepresented by DVP and Ayton in their book. [DiEugenio is, as usual, dead wrong here. This topic was not "misrepresented" by Mel Ayton or myself in our book at all. Jimmy just doesn't want to believe the ITEK Corporation's findings, that's all.]
Jim is hilarious.
To think that the forward motion of JFK's head at Z313 is only being caused by the "blur" in the film is another example of "Ultimate CTer Denial In Action" --- especially since we know (and can SEE) that the President is being hit in the head WITH A BULLET at that exact moment in time on the Zapruder Film.
And yet, even though we know a high-speed bullet is definitely crashing into his skull at that EXACT instant, I'm supposed to believe that the ONLY thing that is causing the apparent "forward movement" of Kennedy's head is the "blur"???
Jim and Josiah are too funny for words!
Who changed the motorcade route?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by David Von Pein
Since every scrap of evidence leads directly into the lap (and guns) of Lee Harvey Oswald when it comes to the murders of both JFK and Officer Tippit, I cannot fathom how anyone could seriously make a comment like this --- "I keep thinking of how little LHO meant to the plot."
Un-be-liev-able!
No, LHO is the double-murderer* who has been turned into an "innocent patsy" thanks to the colorful imaginations possessed by thousands of conspiracy fantasists.
* And the large amount of evidence that favors Oswald's guilt in the JFK and Tippit murder cases proves that I'm right.