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David Von Pein

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    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    Michael,

    Yes, I've seen some discussions about how Tippit was supposedly not such a good husband/father, etc. (i.e., that he was cheating on his wife, Marie, by having an affair with a waitress). And that part about him "cheating" on his wife is apparently true, and Dale Myers talks openly about Tippit's affair with the waitress in his book, "With Malice" (pages 35-36 and 305-306).

    But even if we acknowledge that Officer Tippit had his faults and cheated on his wife, I can't see how those facts have any relevance at all to the events in Dallas on November 22-24. Where's the tie-in? I see none.

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    4 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

    And, of course, according to you and Jack Ruby, Ruby murdered Oswald out of lamentation of Jackie Kennedy's grievous situation, right?

    Go ahead, David; state your agreement with that.

    First of all, explain what the heck this is supposed to mean, Ten-Four?....

    "David, you are implying that Tippit's murder played no part in the failure to protect Oswald."

    Spell it out slowly now. (Remember, I'm just a mindless hick LNer from the Hoosier State.)

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    On 4/30/2018 at 6:02 PM, James DiEugenio said:

    ...anyone who really wants to understand the Tippit case needs to read McBride's book.  It is really a fountain of information on that case.

    And make sure to read the parts of that "Nightmare" book that Dale Myers talks about in his (Myers') 2013 article below regarding the way McBride tries to deceive his readers about some of the things Henry Wade told the Warren Commission. This reminds me of Mark Lane's slimy tactics....

    http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-good-bad-and-ugly-new-and-updated.html

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

    I believe his story when he says that a cop did it...

    And wasn't it fortunate for that murdering "cop" to have a bunch of totally blind (or lying) eyewitnesses at the murder scene?

    You don't get lucky like that every day when you're planning to frame your resident patsy.

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    37 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

    I'm a red blooded patriotic U S citizen.  I don't want to defend a proven cold blooded cop killer.  But I'm not. ...

    But given the COMBINATION of both BALLISTICS evidence and MULTIPLE EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION evidence in the Tippit case, plus just the basic garden-variety fact that has Lee Harvey Oswald being very near the scene of the crime WITH A GUN and FIGHTING WITH THE POLICE within 35 minutes of Officer Tippit being shot....I'm just wondering how it's possible to reconcile all that stuff into a scenario that has Oswald completely innocent of shooting Officer Tippit?

    IOW --- How much evidence (and how many witnesses) does it take to make an Internet conspiracist begin to think of Lee Oswald as something other than an Innocent Patsy?

    Is all the evidence against Oswald fake and phony? And all of the "It Was Oswald" witnesses were liars or just wrong? Is that it?

    Also....

    Who do you think murdered J.D. Tippit---if not Lee H. Oswald? Any idea at all?

     

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    42 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

    Oswald and Tippit were both patsy's [sic].  Once again, have you read Joseph Mc Bride's Into the Nightmare and are thus qualified to discuss its contents and implications, I. E. the subject of this thread?

    No, I haven't read that book.

    But I certainly know enough about the evidence in the Tippit murder case—such as all the stuff I talk about in these articles—to know one thing for certain....

    Anyone who attempts to defend Lee Harvey Oswald for the cold-blooded murder of Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit is attempting to defend a proven killer.

    "Lee Harvey Oswald murdered Officer J.D. Tippit. The Dallas cops believed it. The newspapers reported it. The Warren Commission made it official and the House Select Committee on Assassinations reaffirmed it." -- Dale K. Myers; Page 17 of "With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald And The Murder Of Officer J.D. Tippit" (1998)

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

    Ok, to give DVP the benefit of the doubt, since he once did me a favor.

    I can only scratch my head and wonder (all night) what that favor might have been.

    ?????

     

    Quote

    Why does he not go to the Archives and show us how Hunt was wrong then?

    If you want to pay for the airline ticket and my motel room (and any other expenses), then maybe I'll consider it. (Although it's rather humorous to think that the NARA would just let me waltz in there and permit me---a total NOBODY who they've never heard of before---to personally handle and examine the Stretcher Bullet. Too funny.)

    But I want you to link to any post I made in the past which gave you the idea that I had implied that I definitely was planning to go to NARA. Good luck finding such a post, because it doesn't exist and never did.

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

    Nah David, that's the truth.  Defending the Warren Omission is pretty asinine these days given the facts, evidence that has emerged over the years.

    ~~Yawn~~

    ~~Stretch~~

     

    Quote

    The link you provide, which I've not bothered to click on, is the cheap shot.  Calling or implying someone is stupid is a cheap last resort childish playground response.  

    The truth is sometimes brutal, Ron. Live with it.

    And just examine the 22 ridiculous things Jim D. believes on my list. It's hilarious beyond words. If that list--in its entirety--doesn't deserve being described with the "S" word (with a Capital S), then I don't know what would deserve such a description.

    http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81.html#The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

    And neither will the fact that Frazier had the stretcher bullet before Todd gave it to him.

    That in itself says that either there were four bullets or one was substituted. 

    Or that somebody made a simple error in writing down the time. (But, of course, such a "simple error" is not even on the radar screen of possibility if you're an Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorist like James DiEugenio of Los Angeles, California, USA.)

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    James DiEugenio said:

    DVP said he was going to NARA...

    Still telling that bald-faced lie, eh Jim?

    I never once said I was going to travel to the National Archives to personally inspect CE399. DiEugenio just decided to make that story up from whole cloth. And no matter how many times I tell him it's a lie, he still keeps on repeating it. Pathetic.

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

    This evidence is almost impossible to impugn since it is made up of primary documents in the writing and typing of FBI and Secret Service agents. Plus the NARA photos.

    Plus the fact that Hunt actually went to the Archives and arranged for Steve Tilley to give this stuff to him after extensive negotiations.

    Hunt then brought magnifying glasses and a computer scanner to visually inspect the documents, the bullet, and the photos at very close range and under magnification. Does anyone truly believe that he could not locate Todd's initials under those circumstances?


    DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

    Yes, I do.

    ALL of the markings that John Hunt found on Bullet CE399 from the NARA photos are very faint and quite difficult to see and discern (as illustrated by the NARA photo below). I can easily envision Todd's faint mark on that bullet being overlooked.

    CE399.jpg

    But the fact is that Elmer Todd HIMSELF saw his own initials on CE399. He saw them on the bullet.

    Naturally, Jim DiEugenio believes that either Todd HIMSELF is a big fat L-word...or Jim believes that top FBI man J. Edgar Hoover is the l-i-a-r with respect to the verbiage we find in black-and-white in Commission Exhibit No. 2011.

    I, myself, don't think either man lied concerning this issue. Todd's initials are there, somewhere, on Bullet CE399.

    And, btw, for the fourth or fifth time I'll point out this fact:

    In John Hunt's 2006 article [linked here], Hunt specifically tells us the method by which he attempted to determine whether or not Elmer Todd's initials are on CE399. Hunt said:

    "The question for me became, is Todd's mark on the CE-399 bullet? To answer that question, I put together an illustration using photographs of CE-399. I was able to track the entire surface of the bullet using four of NARA's preservation photos."

    image003.jpg

    Now, via the above verbiage, it's pretty clear (to me anyway) that Hunt did not use the ACTUAL BULLET ITSELF to perform his "Checking For Todd's Initials" examination. Instead, Hunt utilized four PHOTOS from the National Archives to perform that task. (All those photos can be found in full-sized versions at Mary Ferrell's website, HERE.)

    And I see that Jim DiEugenio still has this falsehood in print in Part 7 of his Vincent Bugliosi book review on the CTKA.net website:

    "He [John Hunt] photographed the bullet in sequential rotation."
    -- J. DiEugenio; 2008

    But John Hunt didn't take those NARA pictures himself. They were taken years ago by the NARA staff.

    And BTW, I don't believe for a second that J. Edgar Hoover lied when he said (via CE2011) that FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum went to Parkland and showed CE399 to both Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright.

    When Odum was asked about the incident in 2001 or 2002 by Gary Aguilar and Josiah Thompson, Odum's memory had obviously faded to the point where he just simply could not recall showing the bullet to the two men.

    But CE2011 exists, and it always will, as an official document connected to the assassination of a U.S. President. And within that document, on Page 412 of WC Volume 24, we find these words:

    "On June 12, 1964, Darrell C . Tomlinson...was shown Exhibit C1 [CE399], a rifle slug, by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum, Federal Bureau of Investigation. Tomlinson stated it appears to be the same one he found on a hospital carriage at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, but he cannot positively identify the bullet as the one he found and showed to Mr. O.P. Wright."

    And these words....

    "On June 12, 1964, O. P. Wright...advised Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum that Exhibit C1 [CE399], a rifle slug, shown to him at the time of the interview, looks like the slug found at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, which he gave to Richard Johnsen, Special Agent of the Secret Service. .... He advised he could not positively identify C1 as being the same bullet which was found as November 22, 1963."


    AN ADDENDUM REGARDING ELMER TODD'S INITIALS
    AND COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 399:

    Many (or most) conspiracy theorists think that FBI agent Elmer L. Todd's initials are not on Bullet CE399.

    But, surely the conspiracists don't think J. Edgar Hoover's post-assassination mindset was something akin to this (do they?):

    [Simulated J. Edgar Hoover quote on:]

    Well, yeah, sure, my FBI boys planted Bullet CE399 into the official record of the JFK murder investigation, and we got rid of a lot of other evidence in the case that didn't implicate our patsy named Lee Harvey Oswald, but even I (J. Edgar) have a line that I won't cross when it comes to carving a man's initials into that FAKE BULLET. That type of behavior is just going TOO far, and I won't be a party to it. A man's initials, after all, are sacred and should never be planted. Yes, I'll allow several of my FBI agents to tell the Warren Commission lie after rotten lie about CE399 and a bunch of other faked evidence connected to JFK's murder -- but even I have some principles. And putting some letters on a bullet that my agency PLANTED INTO THE OFFICIAL RECORD IN THE FIRST PLACE is just something that I won't do. God bless me.

    [/Edgar Off.]

    So, my question is: why didn't J. Edgar (or somebody on the "Let's Frame Oswald And Make Sure We Cross Every T So We Won't Get Caught Framing Him" conspiracy team) engrave Elmer Lee Todd's initials into CE399?

    Plus, let me add this footnote to this CE399/Elmer Todd discussion:

    Jim DiEugenio in the past has suggested that FBI Agent Todd DID, indeed, carve his initials into a bullet. But Jim insists it wasn't CE399. It was a different bullet (presumably the pointy-nosed missile that Jim thinks was really found by Darrell Tomlinson at Parkland Hospital). But then this "real" stretcher bullet, per DiEugenio, was deep-sixed by Hoover and his boys at the FBI.

    But it seems to me as though Jim has got a bit of a timing problem with that particular conspiracy theory -- because Elmer Todd identified his own initials on a bullet (which was, in reality, of course, Commission Exhibit 399) on June 24, 1964, which was more than SEVEN MONTHS after the assassination. [Once again, see CE2011.]

    Therefore, if we're to believe Jim D., apparently the FBI retained the "real" stretcher bullet for over half-a-year AFTER they had inserted CE399 into the official record to REPLACE the "real" stretcher bullet. They must have waited until sometime after June 24th to "deep-six" that bullet which has Elmer Todd's initials on it.

    Did Hoover keep the "real" stretcher bullet in his office as a souvenir for over seven months before getting rid of it? That's just plain silly.

    Or, to provide Jim with an alternative made-up-from-whole-cloth cover-up theory regarding this matter:

    Does Jim DiEugenio think that the "June 24, 1964" date that appears in CE2011 is a lie too?


    JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

    So let me ask you, if Todd's marks were on the bullet, would John [Hunt] not have been able to see them and arrow them as easily as he did the others? Right?


    DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

    No, not necessarily. Perhaps Todd's initials are fainter than the other FBI agents' marks.

    What we DO know is this:

    CE2011 verifies for all time that Elmer L. Todd SAW HIS OWN INITIALS on Commission Exhibit 399 (or "C1", which is what the FBI called the bullet in June 1964, via CE2011).

    And just because Bardwell Odum said he would not have forgotten something from THIRTY-SEVEN YEARS EARLIER, doesn't mean diddly.

    An older person who might be having memories problems (was he? I don't know) might think he would recall an incident from 37 years in the past...but it doesn't mean he really would recall it. Your propping up Odum's 2001 comment about how he would have absolutely remembered the incident is rather funny, IMO.

    Another silly part of the CTers' beliefs re: Odum, Tomlinson, and Wright is this:

    According to DiEugenio, pretty much everything we find in CE2011 concerning those three guys is a lie. Therefore, I'm wondering why Hoover and his scheming FBI boys didn't go WHOLE HOG and lie some more by saying that Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright COULD positively identify CE399?

    Hoover only goes PART way with the lie. Why doesn't he make it CONCLUSIVE by saying in his CE2011 "lie" that the hospital employees made a positive identification of Bullet CE399/C1?

    It seems to me you've got Hoover being a rotten l-i-a-r---but not ENOUGH of a l-i-a-r.

    Lots more:

    http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Elmer+Todd+CE399

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    Jason Ward said:

    yes indeed a FBI document says that Todd's initials are on the bullet, which is the extent of the primary sources you offer.

    Here's another primary source regarding Elmer Todd scratching his initials into Bullet CE399 that you'll very rarely see cited by any conspiracy theorist....

    "At 8:50 p.m. [on 11/22/63], Mr. JAMES ROWLEY, Chief, United States Secret Service, gave to SA ELMER LEE TODD an envelope containing a bullet. This envelope and its contents were taken directly to the FBI Laboratory and delivered to SA ROBERT A. FRAZIER. The envelope was opened and initials of both SA TODD and FRAZIER were etched on the nose of the bullet for identification purposes." -- Elmer L. Todd (Via Commission Document No. 7; page 288)

    https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=295

    CD7.jpg


    Also See:
    http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Elmer+Todd+CE399

     

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

    Why does he [Dale Myers] deserve equal time?  He's a fiction writer for operation mockingbird.  I thought we were looking for the Truth on this site.

    That's a cheap shot, Ron. If there are any "fiction" writers on the subject of the events of 11/22/63, it's most certainly not Dale K. Myers.

    Here are the things I'd label as "fiction" (and some of these things are downright fantasy)....

    http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81.html#The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

    ...the Davis sisters could not verify the shells when the FBI contacted them and showed them the exhibits.

    Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis, of course, could not "VERIFY" with 100% certainty that the shells they were shown were the EXACT same shells they each recovered --- and that's because neither of those witnesses MARKED those shells. So how could either Davis girl possibly know for sure they were the exact same shells? They couldn't. But the markings of the police officers (C.N. Dhority and George M. Doughty) are the markings that provide the rock-solid chain of custody for those two non-Poe bullet shells.

    In June 1964, both Dhority and Doughty positively identified their initials on the shells in question (see CE2011, Page 7 and Page 8; also see Dale Myers' book, "With Malice", Pages 266-269). And those shells positively came out of Revolver V510210 (i.e., Oswald's gun) [see 3 H 466].

    And this same type of thing occurred with the witnesses surrounding Stretcher Bullet CE399 too. Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright didn't put their initials on that bullet, so (obviously) all they could reasonably say is that the bullet shown to them later "looked like" the bullet they saw on 11/22 --- which each of them DID say on 6/12/64.

    I can't really see what the purpose is of the FBI even bothering to show a civilian witness a piece of evidence that the FBI has to know was never marked/initialled by the witness they're showing it to. The FBI has got to know that the witness isn't going to be able to positively I.D. such an item. But the FBI keeps showing witnesses evidence anyway. I guess it's just so they can get the "It Looks Generally Like It" response from the witness. Which, of course, is better for the prosecutors than getting a "No, This Is Definitely Not The Same One" response from a witness.

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

    There is simply no proof that Oswald ever picked up that .38 Smith and Wesson modified Victory model at REA.  

    Doesn't matter one bit. Oswald had that exact gun in his hands just 35 minutes after Tippit was shot with that gun. And the constant protests from the conspiracy crowd couldn't possibly matter less when compared to the fact I just mentioned.

    Meaning: It's impossible (in the real world) for Lee Harvey Oswald to be innocent of shooting Officer J.D. Tippit.

     

    Quote

    And as McBride points out in his book after a long seven page analysis, the ballistics evidence is an absolute mess. 

    Total BS. The two non-Poe bullet shells recovered at the scene of Tippit's murder have a clear and distinct chain of possession --- From Davis to Doughty for one of them. And from Davis to Dhority for the other one. And that's a fact too.

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by David Von Pein

    31 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

    When DVP's rebuttal begins by quoting DVP himself, it's obvious that the argument is more about what DVP thinks and less about any evidence.

    Yeah, I never cite any evidence whenever I talk about this case, do I Mark?

    Eyeroll-Icon-Blogspot.gif

    And David Josephs' attempt above to try and discredit BOTH of the Davis girls is really pathetic. But it's not surprising, of course. Internet CTers will do and say anything in order to keep their Anybody But Oswald dream alive and kicking----even to the point of trying to exonerate Oswald of a murder he could not possibly be innocent of (in the real world).

    The only possible way for Lee Harvey Oswald to be innocent of shooting J.D. Tippit is if the following idiotic situation occurred (which nobody could possibly even begin to believe happened on November 22, 1963):

    Somebody other than Lee Oswald shoots Tippit with Oswald's revolver. This "non-Oswald" shooter (who looks just exactly like Lee Harvey Oswald, but really isn't him) then flees the scene of the Tippit crime, dumping four shells on the ground as he runs away. This non-Oswald shooter then meets up with the real Lee Oswald and hands off the Tippit murder weapon to LHO. Oswald then proceeds to the Texas Theater where he is arrested while in possession of the gun that somebody else used to kill Officer Tippit just 35 minutes earlier.

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