David Von Pein

But it was employees of KLEIN'S and SEAPORT TRADERS who did the actual "digging up" of the "Hidell" documents. It wasn't the FBI who did that digging. They wouldn't have had the slightest idea where to look. So, do you think some of the Klein's & Seaport employees were part of a cover-up plot too? As for Ruth Paine's "No" answers.... She simply did not see the rifle when it was unpacked from her car. Why is that impossible? She had no reason to take INVENTORY of every last item owned by Lee and Marina. You're expecting too much from Ruth. But we KNOW, via Marina's testimony, that there WAS definitely a rifle in that blanket in Ruth's garage in October of '63. (But you don't believe a word uttered by Marina, do you?) BTW, if Ruth was REALLY out to frame Oswald, then why on Earth didn't she attempt to FRAME him further by saying "Yes, I saw the rifle" when she was asked? Any idea why her patsy-framing efforts were so anemic in this regard, David?

I take it, then, Michael, you don't want to answer my question?

Michael, Maybe you'd care to answer this question that other CTers have dodged.... Do conspiracy theorists really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Can CTers REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's and Seaport personnel who were performing the physical searches for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess many conspiracists must buy it.

Clarify what? I was just pointing out that DiEugenio was misrepresenting Jeanne DeM.'s testimony. That's all.

When are you going to start doing that, Michael?

It's not a "minor" mistake on DiEugenio's part, IMO, Michael. Because Jimmy was implying that Jeanne HERSELF was a rotten l-i-a-r. What he really meant, though, is that MARINA lied to Jeanne. (Of course, perhaps DiEugenio really does think Jeanne lied in that part of her testimony....which would mean Jimmy thinks Jeanne just MADE UP the quote that Jeanne attributed to Marina about Lee shooting at leaves.) ~shrug~

Dead wrong. Jeanne never said that SHE herself saw Oswald out in the park shooting his gun. Jeanne was talking about what MARINA had said to her.

Great! Still more liars!! Keep the liars comin', Jimmy!

Good! More liars! And more "fake" stuff! Continue, Jimmy.... Why would they have felt the NEED to perform such a meaningless task? Just to please you conspiracy clowns? (Yeah, right.) Oh good! Jimmy thinks still MORE stuff is fake! Lovely! Any end to the fakery in this case, Jimbo? Any end at all? Waldman was the Vice President of Klein's. And Waldman himself even told the FBI that HE (Waldman) was, indeed, the proper person to subpoena if testimony became necessary (with respect to the microfilm, at any rate). So what's your beef now, Jimmy? Shall I add Bill Waldman to your "Liars List" too? (I'm sure he's already high up on your list anyway, right James? Why of course he is. Otherwise, Klein's sent the rifle to Oswald. And you'll never admit that fact in a billion years.)

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?" Was Jeanne DeMohrenschildt a big fat falsehood teller when she gave the above WC testimony, Jimmy?

There's tons of proof that Oswald owned and possessed a rifle and a revolver as of March 1963. Tons! You just refuse to believe ANY of it is legitimate. ALL of this stuff is fake (or flat-out wrong), per many CTers: 1. All (or most) of the "Waldman Exhibits" that are available in Volume 21 of the WC volumes. 2. Commission Exhibit No. 773. 3. The backyard photographs (which show Oswald with a rifle and a pistol). 4. 6 HSCA 146 (verifying the legitimacy of the backyard photos). 5. Marina Oswald's testimony where she talks about seeing the guns Lee owned. 6. Marina Oswald's testimony where she admits that she herself took the backyard photographs. 7. Jeanne DeMohrenschildt's testimony where she states that she saw a rifle in the closet of Lee Oswald's apartment on Neely Street in Dallas.... MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?" 8. The testimony of William J. Waldman, in which he testified that Klein's definitely did ship the C2766 Carcano to Oswald's post office box in Dallas in March of '63. 9. The handwriting on both the money order (CE788) and the order coupon and envelope for the rifle purchase (CE773). That handwriting and handprinting was positively identified as the writing of LEE HARVEY OSWALD by multiple handwriting experts for the Warren Commission and the HSCA. But CTers want to now pretend that ALL of those experts got it wrong (or were just flat-out lying, take your pick). So, as we can see, there is AMPLE proof that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and possessed the Kennedy murder weapon (and the Tippit murder weapon as well). Do conspiracy theorists really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Can CTers REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's and Seaport personnel who were performing the physical searches for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess many conspiracists must buy it.

David J., You actually think the USPS and Klein's and Seaport Traders had knowledge of Lee Oswald living in Russia and being tracked by the FBI? Why would they have had that information at their fingertips?

"I've always been a bit baffled by the crackpot conspiracy theorists who argue that Lee Harvey Oswald never ordered or paid for or ever took possession of Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle No. C2766 in 1963. It seems to me that even the rabid CTers in the "Anybody But Oswald" fraternity would be better off by just admitting the obvious---that Oswald did purchase that rifle. Because the CTers could then pretend that the conspirators who framed Oswald did so by using OSWALD'S OWN RIFLE. Isn't that a better theory than the loopy "Oswald Never Ordered The Rifle At All" theory? Via that theory of LHO never ordering the weapon, the CTers are then forced to pretend that the entire rifle transaction and the paperwork for that transaction was falsely manufactured from the ground up! And yet that type of "Everything's Fake" nonsense is supposedly more believable than just conceding that Rifle C2766 was Oswald's own rifle and some plotters framed LHO with it on 11/22/63? Bizarre. But that's the CT world, I guess --- Bizarre." -- David Von Pein; August 2015

Keep living in "rifle denial", conspiracy boys. I've learned to expect such denial from the CT crowd. It's merely par for the JFK course. Joseph Ball's retort to Mark Lane in 1964 concerning Oswald's rifle purchase is just as true today as it was then. It's a great quote, and completely accurate: "I've never heard such a major distortion of what is actually a conclusive fact." -- Joseph A. Ball; 12/4/64 http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/08/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-992.html

The evidence that it happened, Jim, is contained in Waldman #7 (in conjunction with CE773). Those two documents, in tandem, provide the PROOF that the following two things happened.... 1. Lee Harvey Oswald (aka A. Hidell) ordered a 36-inch rifle from Klein's via mail order in March 1963. 2. Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago mailed a 40-inch rifle to Oswald/Hidell on March 20th, 1963. Regardless of the REASON for #2 happening, #2 above definitely DID happen nonetheless. ~Mark VII~

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1194.html http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/09/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-803.html

Who cares? I sure don't. It's meaningless information. We know OSWALD was shipped a 40-inch "Italian Carbine" BY KLEIN'S on 3/20/63. And we know without a doubt that that rifle had the serial number C2766 on it. That's all that really matters.

That's the first report. The second one (Dolan only) then says the microfilm was made available FROM THE SAFE. (Obviously after Waldman had placed it in the safe the same day.) That's what it appears to be to me. I don't see anything suspicious about those reports. I wonder why you do.

So, David J., you think somebody inserted fake serial numbers THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT in Waldman #4? And BOTH of those Dolan FD-302 reports are accurate. The second one, obviously written a little later on Nov. 23, merely indicates that the microfilm was taken OUT OF THE SAFE and made available to the FBI. Why do you think those documents contradict each other? They don't at all.

I think I just answered your question, Jimmy. But, please, ask it a third time.

I don't consider it important to the "Lone Assassin side" at all, quite obviously. Because even without seeing and examining various other non-Oswald "C20-T750" rifle orders in the Klein's files, there is ample proof from the available documents that were photographed by the FBI and the Warren Commission that Klein's Sporting Goods positively and without doubt did obtain Rifle C2766 in a shipment from Crescent Firearms in New York City in February of 1963 [see Waldman Exhibit No. 3 (Carton No. 3376; Line 3) and Waldman Exhibit No. 4 (Line 836) and Waldman Exhibit No. 5], with that exact rifle then being sold by Klein's to "A. Hidell" (aka Lee Harvey Oswald) on 3/20/63 [see Waldman Exhibit No. 7]. Do conspiracy theorists think that ALL of those Waldman exhibits are fake documents? I guess many CTers (including David Josephs) must, indeed, think that every one of those Klein's documents was manufactured by the FBI in order to frame Oswald. An incredibly silly notion, to be sure. If, Jim, you mean: Is this topic important to Lone Assassin believers, because by examining other C20-T750 Klein's orders, it would prove that the Oswald/Hidell rifle order is then legitimate? Well, since I don't think the same way CTers do, I have no reason to believe that there was any fakery or monkey business involved with the Klein's microfilmed files in the first place. So my opinion about all those Waldman exhibits I just linked above would not have changed one bit---with or without the ability to see additional Klein's rifle orders. To me, the "suspicion" being raised by David Josephs concerning the Klein's microfilm is just another example of a conspiracist attempting to insert doubt and controversy and potential fakery into the JFK evidence where none exists (and never did exist) in the first place.

I'd be satisfied if the conspiracy theorists could just prove ONE TINY ELEMENT of their "case for conspiracy" in the John F. Kennedy murder case, let alone "all elements of their case". To date --- Nada! It's also interesting to note that Jim DiEugenio seems to think everybody looking into the JFK case has to pretend we're inside a courtroom. The "Oswald was never proven guilty in a courtroom" defense is always a convenient excuse for staunch CTers to use, even though those CTers know they can't prove a conspiracy existed in the JFK case if their lives depended on it.

Why would they have even TRIED to locate any of those other 99 rifles? Why would they even CARE? Answer: They wouldn't care. And that's because NONE of those other 99 rifles had the serial number C2766 on them. Ergo, those rifles had NO RELATION TO THE JFK ASSASSINATION INVESTIGATION. Only a rabid conspiracy theorist would even begin to care about this type of thing. It's just one more example (among hundreds) of CTers obsessing over something that is totally meaningless. And I'll ask once again this related question (which went unanswered five years ago when I first posed it).... "Has anybody ever seen any other order forms filled out by Seaport Traders for other revolvers shipped to non-Oswald customers? I never have. Have you, David [Josephs]? And if you haven't, are you going to start belly-aching about fake evidence in the Seaport files regarding the revolver that Oswald ordered?" -- DVP; August 2012

And that microfilm no doubt did contain that very thing (i.e., lots and lots of orders from non-"Hidell" customers). Why would you think the microfilm DIDN'T contain such orders? You think that just because we haven't SEEN all of the other order forms on the microfilm, this means those orders never existed at all? Why would you think that? So what? You think the other 99 customers should have come forward and exclaimed: Look! I also purchased a rifle from Klein's by mail order! ? Maybe many people in the past DID make such a exclamation about getting a Carcano from Klein's. I don't know. But I certainly don't think it's suspicious that you and I don't have personal knowledge of such a declaration from a former Klein's customer. And I have no idea why you're saying this: "...let alone shipped on a real order." How on Earth did you acquire enough guts to make such a loony claim, David J.? "A real order"??? WTF? I haven't the slightest idea. But I have no reason whatsoever to think that William J. Waldman of Klein's Sporting Goods was lying when he testified about the Hidell/Oswald rifle purchase. And let's face facts, David --- if Bill Waldman WASN'T a big fat l-i-a-r, then Klein's definitely DID mail the C2766 rifle to "A. Hidell" in Dallas on March 20, 1963. And that's a FACT that most conspiracy theorists simply do not want to face. My guess would be that the original microfilm was eventually returned to Klein's. It was, after all, the property of Klein's and it contained mostly material that had no bearing whatsoever on the JFK murder investigation. So why WOULDN'T such documents be returned to Klein's under those circumstances?

OF COURSE Klein's wrote the same information (serial # and VC #) on their other orders they received from other customers. Why WOULDN'T they? But the bigger question continues to be: Why would you, David Josephs, EXPECT the FBI to have saved or extracted from Klein's files any OTHER orders that WEREN'T for the "C2766" rifle they were specifically searching for? It makes no sense whatsoever for the FBI to say to themselves: Well gee, guys, we'd better pull out a bunch of other order forms in these Klein's files besides just this one for the C2766 rifle, because if we don't show that other similar orders were processed in the same manner by Klein's, then a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theorists in the future just might claim that we FBI guys faked this C2766 order form. So let's pull this form here for another C20-T750 order which says that Klein's shipped a rifle with the serial number of D4577 on it; and let's save this random form too, with the serial number P9027. Neither of these rifles means a damn thing as far as the C2766 gun is concerned, but we can't be too careful, because those rabid CTers can be brutal, you know! Of course, I'm sure those same crazy CTers will now say we faked the D4577 and P9027 order forms too. So it really won't make any difference even if we saved every C20-T750 order in the Klein's files, because, as we all know here in the Bureau, the crackpot CTers of the world think the FBI would go to ANY LENGTHS to frame Lee Harvey Oswald, regardless of how many dozens of Klein's orders they had to fake and manufacture from whole cloth to do it.