David Von Pein

No claim was made by Armstrong other than the bleed-thru appearing to show that CE 788 was not original card stock. And the claim was factual at the time.

No, it wasn't. Such a claim was never "factual". Are you joking?

Armstrong just never bothered to check out Cadigan No. 11 to do a comparison of the money order photographs. Neither did I. And neither did anybody else (that I know of) until Tim Brennan did such a direct comparison on December 5, 2015.

Do you think ALL rumors and sloppy research are "factual" until proven wrong, Sandy? If so, that's a mighty strange philosophy.

But here's a picture from that same Pueblo motorcade in which there are no military guards or policemen lining the street at all, and Kennedy is standing up in the car, with no SS agents even riding the running boards of the SS follow-up car, and no police motorcycles next to JFK's car at all (the cycles visible in this picture below are well ahead of the President's car). And I'm always hearing CTers griping about how the motorcycle configuration wasn't right surrounding JFK's car in Dealey Plaza. And yet here is an example of a motorcade (in Pueblo) where there isn't a cycle anywhere near the President's car at all. So during this stretch of the Pueblo, Colorado, parade at least, the President's protection was far LESS substantial than what we find in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on November 22nd....

It's way beyond you now... nor can daBug help.

Yeah, that's right, David. It's now in the hands of people who make comments like the ones below....

"The "bleed-thru" of the ink is a strong indication that postal money order 2,202,130,462, shown as CE 788, was not original card stock." -- John Armstrong

"I mean the bleed through. I don't see how it can be ignored. It really does seem to me to be a big faux pas, one which the WC apparently swallowed. I mean can someone explain it innocently?" -- James DiEugenio

THE BLEED-THRU PROBLEM EXPLAINED

Is your faith in the Conspiracy Gods shaken by the above information, Mr. Healy? (Not even a tiny little bit?)

And WHO CARES if the M.O. has Lee's writing all over it? (Means nothing to Jimmy Hargrove.)

And WHO CARES if the M.O. was definitely handled by Klein's (as their stamp proves)? (Means nothing to Jimmy.)

And WHO GIVES A DAMN if there's a FLN on the M.O.? (Means nada to James H.) After all, EVERYTHING can be faked. Right?

And WHO CARES about those CD75 and CD87 documents from the FBI & SS. (They mean less than NOTHING to Jimmy.) After all, everybody was framing LHO in Nov. '63.

As I said.....

Whatever it takes to pretend Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy on 11/22/63, an Internet CTer is ready and eager to do it. And Jim Hargrove proves it with every post he makes.

TIM NICKERSON SAID:

The amount of authentication that we have for the money order is vast. It was vast before the issue came to the forefront six or seven weeks ago, and it's even moreso now. The fact that the Armstrongites continue to deny that authenticity just shows how out to lunch that they truly are.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Absolutely correct, Tim.

But even with a "File Locator Number" now identified on the Hidell money order, PLUS Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting (per many handwriting analysts) being on the same money order, PLUS the Klein's stamp being on that same money order, PLUS the "Mar. 12, 1963" and "$21.45" post office stamps being exactly where they should be on that same money order....the conspiracy crowd still wants more proof to show that the M.O. is a legitimate document.

As far as most conspiracy theorists are concerned, it always seems to be the things that AREN'T there that become more important and valuable than the things that ARE present and accounted for. The bullets in the JFK case are another good example of this mindset possessed by many CTers. Per those conspiracists, it's the bullets that were never found or recovered that somehow become much more important when it comes to solving JFK's murder than the bullets that are in evidence.

Go figure.


ALBERT DOYLE SAID:

Do you understand that the Money Order could be processed, or partly processed, and still be 'handled' through the system in order to frame Oswald?

In other words, it could have a legitimate File Locator stamp and still be planted on Oswald in order to frame him.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I love that constant moving of the goalposts by CTers.

Since it couldn't be more obvious that the Hidell money order now has a proper path to legitimacy (and conspiracy theorists like Albert Doyle know it), we're now treated to more sheer crackpot speculation about how the LEGITIMATE money order (with Oswald's writing on it that was bought and handled by Oswald HIMSELF) was being used to frame Oswald anyway.

The CTer mind is a spinning whirlwind of ever-expanding and forever changing concocted claptrap.

IOW --- Whatever it takes to pretend Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy on 11/22/63, an Internet CTer is ready and eager to do it -- even if the number of goalposts that must be moved reaches triple digits.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,12852.msg415163.html#msg415163

Another Addendum....

WAS THERE "SECURITY STRIPPING"
IN DALLAS ON NOVEMBER 22, 1963?....


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Below is a still frame from the 2013 program "JFK: THE FINAL HOURS", which shows President Kennedy's limousine in downtown San Antonio, Texas, on November 21, 1963. And the motorcade configuration is identical to the Dallas parade the next day. In fact, if somebody didn't know any better, they could easily think this San Antonio photo below was taken in Dallas. No agents on the bumpers and two motorcycles flanking each side of the President's car. Just exactly like in Dealey Plaza at 12:30 PM on November 22nd.

And also take note of where the busses are located in the San Antonio caravan---far back in the motorcade---just exactly like in Dallas the next day. But many conspiracy theorists cry foul about those busses being so far back in Dallas. But do those same conspiracists think there was something sinister about the press busses being this far back in San Antonio on November 21? And I can only assume those are PRESS busses in this picture:

CLICK HERE to see many more examples of how the Dallas motorcade was absolutely no different whatsoever from various pre-November 22nd parades.


JOHN McADAMS SAID:

Nice resource. I've got some material about the supposed "security stripping" on this page.

You've done an admirable job of rounding up a lot of material, all showing that the "security stripping" theory is nonsense.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, John.

It seems like every time I turn around I'm finding more pre-November 22 motorcade photos or films that show the precise same security configuration around JFK's car that we see in Dealey Plaza. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of pictures that disprove the "stripping" hogwash.

David Von Pein
April 20, 2015

Another "No Agents On The Car" example.....

In December 2015, I added this page to my "Kennedy Photo Gallery" website, which is a webpage that includes some photographs of President Kennedy riding in an open limousine during a motorcade in Pueblo, Colorado, on August 17, 1962.

And in that Pueblo parade, it can be noted that there are absolutely no Secret Service agents near or on JFK's car. And President Kennedy is even STANDING UP in his car, which is an older limo in the Pueblo parade which does not appear to even be equipped with the built-in steps/platforms on the back bumper (see photo below).





Plus, in some of the pictures taken during the motorcade in Pueblo (such as the examples provided above and below), there aren't even any Secret Service agents riding on the running boards of the Secret Service follow-up car! The agents are all sitting inside the follow-up car for some portions of that parade.

In addition, there are no police motorcycles right next to Kennedy's car either, making the security immediately surrounding JFK's limousine far less substantial for parts of that Pueblo motorcade than it was in Dealey Plaza in Dallas on 11/22/63.

But since the President wasn't shot and killed in Pueblo, Colorado, conspiracy theorists probably don't give a damn about the (perceived) lax security he received in that city in August of 1962.

EVERY SINGLE DOCUMENT THAT PASSED THROUGH THE FBI IS QUESTIONABLE.

Jim H.,

Do you think William Waldman lied to the WC when he gave this testimony regarding Waldman Exhibit No. 7? I just want to confirm that you think William Waldman of Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago was part of the "conspiracy" and/or "cover-up" too. ....

Mr. BELIN -- I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN -- This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Texas. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN -- This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN -- That's correct.

By "civilian," Hargrove probably means anyone who is not a member of Armstrong's "Army" of frothing-at-the-mouth followers.

No doubt.

Seems kind of creepy to bring a civilian into this without his permission...

Merely citing a "civilian" (?? ) who posted something at another forum is "creepy"?

~big shrug~

Oh, okay, Tommy. Maybe you're right about the "chain". But, anyhow, the empty crate in the CD496 picture is definitely propped up against the door. Maybe it's been put there to aid the "chain" and keep the door open even wider. ~shrug~

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr-pepper-talk.html

Looks like the crate for empties was doubling as a door-propping device too.

Anonymous tipsters...are co-conspirators who helped greatly to frame Marina's husband.

Why of course. Didn't everybody in Texas help to frame Marina's hubby?

The Dr. Pepper machine (first floor; NW corner) (CD496)....

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12

This isn't exactly the same Coke ad that was on top of the TSBD Coke machine in '63, but it's very close.

The only difference is the location of the written words in the ad....

David Von Pein can wave around CD75 and CD87 all he wants, but it is all fruit from the poisoned tree.

They're documents from TWO separate entities --- the FBI and the SS.

Did the Secret Service get together with the FBI guys to make sure they were on the same page regarding putting the $21.45 figure in both of their reports?

And then there's Waldman #7 too, which also shows the $21.45 figure, which perfectly matches the amount on the money order and the amounts shown in CD75 and CD87.

Waldman 7 was found in the Klein's files (as Bill Waldman confirms below). So, am I supposed to believe that William Waldman was part of the "conspiracy" too? Is there ANYBODY who wasn't trying to railroad Lee Harvey? ....

Mr. BELIN -- I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN -- This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Texas. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN -- This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN -- That's correct.

ALBERT DOYLE SAID:

The information was gotten from [the] FBI for the Money Order on the 23rd.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Chief Curry's "order letter" announcement came at about 7 PM Dallas time on November 23rd. The money order was not found until approximately 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time). So the "$12.78" announcement made by Curry and fed to the media and newspapers was NOT being based on the discovery of the "money order". It was the "order letter" that had been found up to that point at 7 PM CST.

Now, I guess CTers who are bent on finding ANY inaccuracy at all to justify their staunch belief that the rifle transaction was totally fraudulent could complain about the amount shown on Oswald's "order letter" (i.e., the Klein's order form; CE773)--which was $19.95--not being released to the press by the FBI. But the $21.45 amount was a figure that Police Chief Jesse Curry was probably not aware of when he announced to the press in the DPD hallway at about 7:00 on Saturday night that the "FBI has the order letter for the rifle".


ALBERT DOYLE SAID:

Hargrove is saying [the] FBI deliberately reported the incorrect $12.78 price because they were adjusting for the phony Dial Ryder installation of a scope.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But the FBI didn't even interview Dial Ryder until Monday, November 25th. So that theory is dead in the water before it ever gets off the ground.

From Ryder's WC testimony:

Mr. RYDER -- "I was interviewed by the FBI and Dallas Police Department and I believe a couple Secret Service men came out."

Mr. LIEBELER -- "Which one of those interviewed you first?"

Mr. RYDER -- "The FBI was the first one out."

Mr. LIEBELER -- "Do you remember what the date was when the FBI first interviewed you?"

Mr. RYDER -- "It was on Monday, the day of the funeral of President Kennedy."

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,12852.msg414750.html#msg414750

~sigh~

Common Sense Interjection.....

[Replay....]

As for any "new and improved money order, this time for $21.45 for a rifle with a scope" --- that's a lot of baloney too, because as early as 11/23/63, we find documentation showing that a money order that was definitely handled by Klein's Sporting Goods AND the First National Bank of Chicago in the amount of $21.45 was recovered at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, on the night of November 23rd, the day after the assassination. This documentation is all laid out in a goodly amount of detail in Commission Document #75 and Commission Document #87.

So, Jim Hargrove, do you think that the FBI and Secret Service reports that appear in CD75 and CD87 are phony documents of some kind? And do you think that a money order in the amount of $21.45 was NOT actually found at the Records Center in Alexandria at all?

Allow me to add this general observation to these proceedings....

Even IF the First National Bank WAS "required" to place stamped markings on the Hidell money order, that still does not positively HAVE to mean the M.O. is a fake and a fraud. Under such circumstances, somebody at the bank could have just screwed up and failed to stamp the Hidell M.O.

Why is that NOT even a remote possibility in the eyes of CTers?

People foul up all the time. It couldn't be more common.

And I'll also remind everyone again of the following section of the banking regulations that were cited earlier (which is a segment taken from the 1969 regulations, but this might have also been in place in 1963 too; we haven't seen a "1963" manual or "circular" on this stuff as yet)....

"16. In the event a cash item is received by a Federal Reserve Bank from a sender without the endorsement thereon of such sender, the Federal Reserve Bank may present, send, or forward the item as if it bore such endorsement, or place on the item the name of such sender and the date of its receipt by the Federal Reserve Bank, or return the item to the sender for proper endorsement by the sender. This Bank makes the warranties stated in Section 210.6(6) of Regula­tion J by presenting, sending, or forwarding a cash item. These warranties arise whether or not such item bears the endorsement of this Bank."

https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/historical/ny%20circulars/1969_6370.pdf

You REALLY can't figure this out, Jim?

I think it's fairly clear that the FBI just simply didn't release the EXACT DOLLAR AMOUNT ($21.45) that appeared on the front of the money order. So the media people were going with the CURRENT Nov. '63 price for the gun (without the scope)--$12.78.

But we know the FBI and Secret Service--on Nov. 23!--had the info regarding the exact dollar amount ($21.45), because CD75 and CD87 that I've linked dozens of times in this thread verify that fact.

So why would you think anything is "magic" or suspicious about this at all? Do you think BOTH of those documents (CD75 & CD87)---which are from TWO different agencies (the FBI and the SS)---are fake documents?

But, Jon, I'd be willing to bet that in the case of a commercial bank (like the First National Bank of Chicago, Illinois) sending a LARGE BATCH (or even a not-so-"large" batch) OF *UNITED STATES POSTAL MONEY ORDERS* to the Federal Reserve Bank, a system was in place by which the bank (First National) was not required to place individual stamped markings on each and every money order.

It's fairly obvious to me that a "bulk deposit" system must have been in place in March of 1963, because I certainly don't think for a second that the Hidell money order is a fraudulent document.

"As for the lack of any bank stamps appearing on the back of Oswald's postal money order, I don't have a definitive answer to explain it. But I'd be willing to bet the farm that there IS a reasonable and non-conspiratorial answer to explain the lack of markings on the back of that document without resorting to the conclusion that the money order was manufactured and faked by a group of conspirators in a complicated and intricate effort to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for John F. Kennedy's murder. And I know that conspiracy theorists who think Oswald never ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in early 1963 have a heck of a lot MORE evidence to explain away than I do. Just check my list [here]." -- DVP; 10/27/15

Of course it was coming from the FBI originally, Jim. Who ELSE would you expect it to be coming from?

I've seen various versions [of the Z-Film] at YouTube that aren't identical. Some are B&W, others color. Some are grainy, others clear. Some are jerking, others stable.)

And you actually think ANY of those things indicate the possibility of FAKERY or ALTERATION by conspirators?

Geez.

The NY Times probably got the "March 20" date from Jesse Curry, who announced it on live TV on 11/23/63 (as well as announcing that the handwriting on the rifle order was Oswald's). So it became common knowledge as of the early evening of Nov. 23rd. Nothing mysterious about it at all. TV stations had the "March 20" info as well. And WBKB in Chicago was also saying the gun cost $12.78 (because they were showing the audience a Nov. '63 ad at the time)....