David Von Pein

Point taken, Sandy. Thanks for your input.

I'm sorry, Andrew, but I'm not buying that at all. 5-feet-9 isn't very tall at all. Yes, a woman who is 5-9 would be considered "tall" for a lady. But you said the probability is near "zero" that Prayer Man is a female, despite the fact that there were undoubtedly many thousands of females in the Dallas-Fort Worth area who stood at 5-9 or taller in late 1963. I have no idea exactly HOW MANY women were 5-9 or taller, but my gosh, your "approaching zero" odds are surely overstated to a large degree. (Quick---somebody go through all the JFK records and see if they can find any details that might reveal the height of any of the female assassination witnesses---such as: Ruth Paine, Jean Hill, Mary Woodward, Vickie Adams, Marilyn Sitzman, Karen Carlin, Barbara Davis, Carolyn Walther, Geneva Hine, Linnie Mae Randle, Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, Barbara Rowland, Eva Grant, et al, etc., etc. Surely at least some of those women were 5'9" or taller.) In addition.... How are you, Andrej, so absolutely certain that "Prayer Man" is exactly 5-feet, 9-inches tall? Have you considered every possible factor involving posture that could affect how the height of a person can be distorted in a photograph or film? And how can you determine the exact posture (or stance) of "Prayer Man"? Seems to me, given the restrictions and limitations you're working with, the best you could possibly do would be to arrive at a range of possible heights for the unknown individual known as "Prayer Man".

Thanks for the kind words, Andrew. And what you said about Ruby and hairlines is kind of interesting, because many people still to this day seem to think that Jack Ruby was roaming all over Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. (Not as "Prayer Man" on the steps, but Ruby was allegedly seen in other locations within the Plaza, according to Jean Hill and others.)

But there's the rub right there, Andrej. How do we decide what is truly "known", vs. factors (or "matches") that are merely pure guesses? Such as Male vs. Female and the weight of the individual, to name just two factors? It's a guessing game to a large degree.

Andrej, You're just inventing those "1 in 700,000" odds. It's being based on data that YOU think is correct. While others might disagree with your data. For example, you've decided that PM is a MALE. But we don't KNOW that for a fact. It could be a female. In which case, your "1 in 700,000" figure would change dramatically. Anyway, I don't place much stock in "odds" reached by CTers----especially since the "1 in 100 trillion trillion" junk (or whatever the number was) that came from the CT crowd many years ago re: the "Mysterious Deaths", which we now know was totally bogus.

Two more additions to my "Master Video Index":

Linked below is one of my NBC-TV videos which shows the Wiegman film being broadcast on live television for the first time (narrated by Charles Murphy of WBAP-TV). Skip to about 37:00 to see the Wiegman footage. I can't see the "Prayer Man" figure at all in this video footage, but perhaps some of the photographic experts/wizards at this forum can extract the "PM" out of this footage. Note --- This version below of NBC's assassination coverage is probably the very best and highest visual quality you will likely ever come across for this videotaped material. It was sent to me in 2015 by a Facebook friend who didn't want to be identified, and he gave me permission to post his enhanced footage anywhere I wanted on the Internet. The video below is a "raw file" that has not been re-processed by me or anyone else after I received it in 2015, which makes it a little clearer than my edited version that I've placed on my websites and elsewhere. To see all five "Raw" parts in my NBC-TV series, Click Here. The Wiegman film is shown at least two more times by NBC later in the day on November 22nd, including in Part 5 of my series, when a very brief segment of the Darnell film is also seen (but not Darnell's footage of the TSBD, however).... http://drive.google.com/ Video File / NBC-TV Coverage On November 22, 1963 (Part 2)

I also just today realized that I have in my video archives a fairly high-quality (enhanced) version of the NBC-TV coverage that aired on 11/22/63, and that coverage includes the news film taken by NBC cameraman Dave Wiegman. I'm not sure if my enhanced NBC coverage contains the Jimmy Darnell footage or not, but it might, because Darnell was employed by an NBC affiliate, WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, at that time. I'll go look now.

Well, I have some other versions of the Prayer Man image saved on my computer too [below], if they will help. (You might not believe me, but I too would like to be able to find out who "Prayer Man" is, if at all possible.)

Not true. Are you sure you're "the first"? The first again, eh? I kinda doubt it. Not around these parts.

It doesn't really matter, Andrej. Because one thing is quite obvious to me after looking at this image just one time ---- and that is: Nobody can say for sure who the so-called "Prayer Man" person is ---- not even Marina Oswald. And anyone who thinks she can positively I.D. LHO as PM is only fooling themselves.

Andrej, Good suggestions above. I agree that a sit-down, in-person conversation with Marina Oswald Porter would be the best way to straighten out exactly where she stands on the matter of "Altgens/Lovelady" vs. "Prayer Man". Because I think, as of right now, she is equating ALL "Doorway Man" images with the famous Altgens/Lovelady image. And I think that's why she said this to Ed LeDoux in one of their conversations: "When I [LeDoux] asked Marina about the images of Prayer Man to Lee, she said, “Yes, seen it many times”, like it was old news." Now, does anyone really think that Marina Oswald has seen the "Prayer Man" image "many times" since that theory first popped up on anybody's radar in 2013? I seriously doubt it. The image she has very likely seen "many times", however, is the Altgens/Lovelady picture.

Also see this newspaper clipping from the 11/23/63 edition of The Washington Post, which clearly shows a date for the article of "DALLAS, Nov. 22", in which the Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter is clearly referenced.

An "It's Lee!" Follow-Up.... Based on the comments I have received from a member of my Facebook group, I was prompted to take another look at this page of the "Prayer Man" website, on which we find these words (which evidently I didn't read carefully enough yesterday when I first looked at that webpage; emphasis added by DVP): "When I [Ed LeDoux] got to Richard Sprague’s annotated sketches of Weigman [sic] and the label of an unknown figure marked J, she stopped me. Marina interjected and said, “That’s Lee”. I was taken aback, as she knew exactly what and who I had asked about. She volunteered her answer. I exclaimed, “What?”, to make sure I had heard her correctly. And she replied to me, “It’s Lee”, and did so as quite a matter of fact." So it's clear from the above words written by Ed LeDoux that Marina didn't "identify" Lee Harvey Oswald as "Prayer Man" from any of the FILMS showing the front of the Book Depository during the time of the assassination (i.e., the black-and-white news films taken by Dave Wiegman of NBC-TV and Jimmy Darnell of WBAP-TV), but, instead, Marina evidently called out "That's Lee" when looking at this "sketch".... ....which, of course, is a sketch that depicts absolutely no clear features whatsoever that could possibly be utilized to positively identify ANY human being. So when I said this yesterday.... "Marina Oswald looked at the same crappy, fuzzy image that all of us have looked at, and yet she somehow KNOWS "It's Lee". Yeah, right." ....I was probably incorrect, because it certainly would appear (according to the words we find at Prayer-Man.com) that Marina Oswald was NOT looking at this still frame from the Darnell Film when she exclaimed "It's Lee". She was merely looking at some drawing or "sketch". So why in the world the Prayer Man and ROKC conspiracy theorists are propping up this "It's Lee" junk is beyond me. Because it couldn't be more obvious to me now that Marina Oswald's "It's Lee!" declaration is about as useful and meaningful as a blind person trying to figure out the identity of the "Prayer Man" figure. In other words, Marina is very likely mixed up regarding which "Doorway Man" figure is which, and as such, her "It's Lee" remark is not credible at all. In fact, it's totally worthless. And it would still be totally worthless even if Marina WAS referring to the "Prayer Man" figure seen in the Darnell film. Because that figure cannot be positively identified as "Lee" (or anyone else) given its poor quality and low resolution. It's also quite clear from the audio of LeDoux's telephone conversation with Marina Oswald in July of 2018 that Marina has no interest in reading the "Prayer Man" book that was sent to her by members of the "Prayer Man" online fraternity. She said to LeDoux very pointedly: "I'm not going to read that book". So Marina certainly hasn't gleaned any knowledge from this book at all. And I have a feeling that she probably hasn't read a single thing about the "Prayer Man" theory---ever. Plus, Marina mentions the name of "Billy Lovelady" during her brief telephone conversation with LeDoux [linked below], implying that she was still of the opinion at that time that the "Classic Lovelady Figure" (for lack of a better way to describe it) in the James Altgens photograph was the focus of LeDoux's interest, and not the "Prayer Man" figure. It's very curious to me (based on that one article at the "Prayer Man" website) that anyone in the PM community could possibly think that Marina had, in fact, said that the Prayer Man figure was Lee Oswald, when she clearly seems to think that the "Billy Lovelady" figure in the TSBD doorway is the prime focus of Ed LeDoux's inquiry. And thusly, she mentions "Billy Lovelady" in her follow-up phone conversation with LeDoux above. I think she is saying that she thinks Lee is the Billy Lovelady figure. She's not saying the "Prayer Man" figure is Lee at all. And I'll add this.... Based on the words that Marina used in her interviews with LeDoux, I'm going to guess that even if Marina Oswald HAS seen this image from Jimmy Darnell's film, she could very well STILL think that the "Prayer Man" image is the same as the "Billy Lovelady" image. Both figures, after all, are standing very close to each other in the west portion of the doorway. So if Marina hasn't "studied up" on the "Prayer Man" theory specifically (and it's pretty clear that she hasn't, based on her comments to LeDoux on the phone), she could very easily be merging the two "Doorway Man" figures into just one, with that one (in Marina's mind) being this man right here in the Altgens photo.

In your (wildest) dreams maybe.

I can agree with your points here. You make sense. (Except for the part about it probably being LHO.) But my previous point was ---- there's no way we can TOTALLY ELIMINATE the possibility of PM being a "stranger".

And that would be.....?

This is how.... [Click....]

Big deal. You found ONE. Hooray for Kamp!

There is no possible way that Sean Murphy (or anyone else) could totally eliminate the POSSIBILITY of PM being a "stranger" instead of a "TSBD worker". Sean might THINK he's done the impossible there, but when reality sets in, the "stranger" angle will never be totally eliminated. How could it be? There were a lot of "strangers" on Elm Street that day (from a TSBD worker's POV). Far more strangers than TSBD workers, that's for sure. And yet Sean Murphy has (somehow) systematically eliminated from contention any possibility of one of those non-Depository "strangers" climbing to the top of the TSBD stairs and watching the motorcade from there??? Puh-lease!

Please don't tell me you're trying to imply what it looks like you might be trying to imply. Please.

Well, Vanessa, as Tony Krome pointed out earlier (and he made a good point), Sarah Stanton failed to say that Buell Frazier was there. And we certainly know that he WAS there. But the "Prayer Man" person could most certainly be a STRANGER. There's no reason why it COULDN'T be a "stranger", despite the protests of CTers saying that that is impossible. CD706/CE1381 doesn't specifically say that all 73 of those employees saw no strangers OUTSIDE the confines of the building on Nov. 22. Most of them said they saw no strangers INSIDE the building. But do you think that statement is also meant to convey that they didn't see any unknown people standing on the steps of the building during the motorcade? I don't think it means that at all. Therefore, IMO, the possibility (or even probability) of Mr. Prayer Person being a "stranger" is certainly still on the table.

Another "Ochus Campbell" Addendum (FWIW).... While I was browsing through the witness statements in CD706, I came across this March 19, 1964, statement provided by TSBD Vice President Ochus V. Campbell, and I noticed that it dovetails nicely with Campbell's 11/24/63 FBI interview, with respect to Campbell saying (in both documents) that he had never seen Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the assassination. In his 3/19/64 statement specifically, Campbell said this: "I have had occasion to view photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald and to the best of my recollection never saw him while he was employed by the Texas School Book Depository."

Why on Earth can't it be a "stranger"? In the CE1381/CD706 document, it appears that all (or most) of the employees only stated that they had seen no strangers IN the building that day. That doesn't eliminate the possibility of a stranger mixing in with some of the TSBD employees out on the front steps, which are located, of course, OUTSIDE the building. So, yes, "Prayer Man" could very possibly be a "stranger" indeed. And please don't start up the nonsense about the front steps and entrance area of the building really being INSIDE the building itself. Because that argument is too nonsensical to keep talking about.

Go Home Kamp!