Larry Hancock

I was just waiting for you to show up D😇avid.    Indeed in this instance having Hart in some fashion connect to Oswald might have a lot more to do with Phillips, Phillips own New Orleans contacts and a propaganda program being built around Oswald than anything else.   Of course it would be very surprising to see Oswald having knowledge of a "true name" rather than an alias or even pseudo - on the other hand it would not be a surprise to have seen Oswald being given a last ditch telephone number for emergency use only.  And normally such numbers would be totally confabulated, using cut outs with no operational connection at all, just people to hang up the phone and pass on a message. I suspect there were vetted and deniable phone cut outs just as there were vetted lawyers, physicians, purchasing agents etc.

The real challenge would be to find out what Hart was doing in 1963 and whether or not he was still operating at a case officer level where he might be used as a type of contact or cut out himself.

Task Force W was the CIA activity tasked with supporting Operation Mongoose during 1962.  It has been assumed that it was disbanded following the dissolution of Mongoose after the Cuban Missile crisis agreement with the Soviets.  From an operations standpoint it was replaced by the Special Affairs Staff (SAS) under Fitzgerald in 1963 - when Mongoose itself was succeeded by the Cuban Coordinating Committee with RFK as its driving force. 

If would be very interesting to find that Task Force W continued its activities ...or if it was reconstituted in 1965 under Hart.

I've not seen anything documenting Task Force W after Mongoose so I would be very interested if someone finds evidence or details on it?

Having researched at length and then written about Nagell myself I fully sympathize with the issues raised in this thread.  I followed Dick Russell down that path, getting hundreds of documents which do tie down certain aspects of Nagell and wrote about him at some length in SWHT.   However more importantly I created CD which contains the documents and papers for what I call a "situational analysis" given that his story evolved over time based on what was happening to him personally, his trial, his wife's taking their children, his negotiations with the CIA to enlist aid in recoveringthem (which actually is pretty well corroborated by events and movements including a very strange trip to Europe he could have no way made unassisted) and his history of interactions with Dick.

Actually what may have been most significant element in his story is Nagell's verified (via documents) effort to "defect" via the US embassy in Mexico City in 1962 and the very good chance that he was contacted by Harry Hecksher there at that point in time - when Hecksher was operating very much undercover in MC.

Nagell's story has also been muddied by researchers who failed to match some of his remarks and more importantly claims by others to what and where he was at given times - and what he could conceivably have known.  While he was in Miami (provably) and he would have passed on though New Orleans on his way to Texas. But there is literally no way that I could find that he could have known anything about a plot after September - people from Miami in touch with Oswald in New Orleans - possibly, but beyond NO he was out of circulation.

All in all, his story has potential value in exploring Oswald's back story in Japan and in New Orleans, but I'm afraid its been stretched way too far in regard to the attack in Dallas.  Its context for the period and I think possibly for Oswald to some extent, but you have to commit yourself to a major chuck of time to determine what might be significant...been there, done that and went on.

Greg, I wouldn't want to get involved in a more detailed discussion of Lamar's work and scenario other than in respect to what I can comment on directly in our shared AMWOLD research; I was reasonably close to him when he was completing his book, when he was launching it, and when he had hopes of it becoming a major movie - but as I've said before, I don't review or critique others research. Others have exploredl key elements of his work, which beyond AMWORLD and a particular Castro regime figure, is fundamentally based in a series of Marcello tape recordings made while Marcello was in prison and that those reviews can easily be found in online searches.

As for myself, my view of the conspiracy in terms of motives, personnel, timing and operations evolved though more than one book and ultimately appeared in Tipping Point.  My view of the damage control and cover up and its motivations is covered in detail in SWHT 2010.

But my impression is that my conspiracy scenario, and view of what I see as actually multiple levels of cover up, are basically too simple and straight forward to meet the expectations of many who suspect a far deeper, and grander conspiracy - which is fine, each to his own.  I'm always happy to discuss the details in Tipping Point or SWHT but I will have to cheerfully leave the dialog on deeper, much farther reaching conspiracies to others.

I think its pretty clear now that JFK did not know that an assassination program had been reactivated under Mongoose and certainly not that Helms allowed it to proceed well into 1963.   On the other hand certainly some of the programs such as AMWORLD and AMTRUNK did allow talk and planning to continue in regard to Cuban only assassination efforts and its hard to think RFK was not aware of that - but it was not the same type of CIA driven/asset based approach as in the earlier projects and not directly funded as the first poison efforts were.

It really easy to come up with a number of different plots, much talk and many proposals about assassinating Castro - but as far as the administration was concerned by the summer of 1963 that was something the Cubans were going to have to do with a coup or some sort of internal effort - hence AMTRUNK and AMLASH.  Its probably most relevant that by November Castro was warning JFK directly and publicly about assassination efforts against himself but more specifically that the anti-Castro exiles might turn on JFK himself.

Thanks Ty,  I wanted to make sure everyone got the background on the comparison between the two sets of releases so I started further up the thread....as you say, that link takes you direct to the current release update.  I just wish there was more there to see.

Kirk,  there are problem a number of people who have not followed the dialog about Lamar's theory over the years, his book and scenario was based on his understanding of AMWORLD.  Actually he and I were both working on AMWORLD before he released his book and talked a good bit before and after its release.  Unfortunately his early perspective of the material was simply incorrect and given additional records and a great bit more research I think its possible to unequivocally state that there was no such invasion in the works - in fact it would be counter to just about everything we know was going on at the time, including the start of JFK's negotiations with Castro (which both parties were very serious about) which would have gotten underway in December.

You would have to dig into AMTRUNK and AMWHIP and into AMWORLD in detail to see how I can support that statement, as well as the new Commandos Mambises effort that did get underway in the fall, to fully appreciate the story and the chaos of the period.  It is true that JFK had directed the military to take over covert operations against Cuba and to develop a worst case contingency plan for accelerated military pressure (we have lots of documentation on that JCS activity) but that effort was only in the planning stages with no effort at all to begin staging military assets for any large scale action in January.

Its one of those scenarios that just did not survive the research in later years,  but both Jim D and I have looked at it repeatedly and with our much deeper knowledge of what was going on in regard to Cuba it simply does not match the invasion scenario in Lamar's book.

I've always felt that the Manchester interviews represented a really significant opportunity so that is definitely depressing.  On the other hand the Pena information represents a very real window into Oswald circa New Orleans that does not get nearly the attention it deserves - Weisberg's volume on Oswald in New Orleans is really a blockbuster on that.

Rex Bradford has done an outstanding job of addressing the new releases via the Mary Ferrell Foundation site.  You may find the material, his reviews and

assessments here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_of_JFK_Releases_2021.html

Even if you don't intend to dig into the documents themselves, his commentary on the this releases as compared to the previous ones - as well as the state of the records at NARA is important reading.

David,  that's about 15 years behind me so I'll have to look for my notes....a task in itself.    I'll post again if I can find them. 

Its certainly real and has been an outstanding issue for ages,  my very first Lancer conference presentation in the 90s was on the packages that were sent to Oswald at the Paines and were either rejected or ended up as undelivered.  The content of one package was as described above.  

The rest is speculation, but another interpretation might be that if it had been delivered, after the assassination the police would have found wrapping paper to match to a sack placed at the TSBD.  That would have directly tied Oswald to preparing the sack, carrying the rifle to the building and pretty much wrapped up the case for premeditation. 

If Oswald had been a witting participant it seems like there should have been an easier way to get him the paper - on the other hand why in the world would the plotters be such cheapskates as to not put on even more than sufficient postage.  To me this just has the feel of one more exercise to frame him without his participation. 

I'm glad Little Saint Nick got in...one of my favorites!  And David, I recall Keith looking a lot younger...then again I did too....and I still can't play guitar...

OK you all started it so the old guy is jumping in: 

Thank  you Sir, that definitely brings back memories....mostly good ones thankfully!

Extremely well said Ron, better than I could have expressed it.  Its also embarrassingly childish - disagreements are one thing, differing opinions, fine....but this is just meaningless name calling, intended only to provoke an equally meaningless emotional response, its just "taunting".   No dignity or honor involved at all.  And to do it on a Christmas call on the Santa line, wow, hard to imagine anything lower.  Thankfully this season proves that most people are much better than that...

I pretty much wish Ron had not posted that, its about the saddest thing I've heard in some time - why someone would be compelled to insert a  "f you" phrase into a Santa hotline call involving their child is a pitiful and embarrassing commentary.

Just for context I do have to say that such contingency planning is a standard at the level of the Pentagon and at regional command levels.  Its the sort of thing staff officers are requested to do on a regular basis...for all sorts of adversaries and contingencies.  Its also pretty standard to come up with "provocation" options for situations where conventional military actions are part of the strategic planning. Not to get in the way of the conspiracy discussion but it certainly was not unique to Mongoose or for that matter for Cuba....and certainly not unique to worldwide militaries.  Hitler used is quite successfully in Europe and Russia has done so in Ukraine and may well be preparing to do so again.  Of course the thing is that it never fools anyone, but then its not really expected to, if it actually goes to the point of operational planning it is simply intended to serve as cover for the initial stage of combat. 

Jim,  why is it that Russo never made that public and shared it with all of us - or did he and I missed it?   And along those lines where did he say he obtained it. I can't see you not asking that...

Sorry, no that's not what I meant to say or infer.  My point was that I conclude that the CIA would have withheld information showing that there was a telephone impersonation of Oswald calling from the Cuban embassy (which the FBI appears to have discovered, even using "technical" resources).  They would also have withheld any photographic evidence that showed that Oswald was not the individual at the Cuban consulate - which it also appears that they did. That would have been to conceal their own activities in an operation against the Cubans.  

Of course that could lead to other problems and other issues of obfuscation or alteration about Oswald being in Mexico or Mexico City.  I was only commenting on what I think happened with the Cubans in Mexico City. 

However I do believe,  that within 48 hours there were high level orders - from the White House - to suppress any leads that pointed to Oswald being in association with others and that made for even more chaos in manipulating records related to Mexico. That would have been in conjunction with the order to the FBI to write a report confirming Oswald as the lone assassin, acting with no association with others. How complex that could have gotten is pure speculation but I do recall Hosty telling me personally that his agent friends in MC had photos of Oswald during his time there - he did seem very sincere about that. 

Bottom line, events seem to have made Mexico the ultimate black hole for our research...

I don't think we will ever fully resolve the question of Oswald personally being in Mexico - or Mexico City.  Certainly there is good reason to question that he was ever at the Cuban consulate.  Is it possible the Russians totally  lied about his visit to their facility - maybe.  Could everything else about the trip including souvenirs have been planted, maybe, not sure of the point in that. Was there considerable evidence immediately after the fact for the agencies to be in chaos about his being there - absolutely.  Does the trip make sense if he was trying to get Russian permission to return Marina - yes, that is consistent with his letters.

In our upcoming paper on the Red Bird Leads David and I discuss one more reason that at least getting Oswald into Mexico if not to Mexico City was important to the some of the conspirators in terms of  setting up a Cuban connection to the attack on the President, however aside that I don't pretend to know anything other than the official story of his visit, involving both Cuban and Russian contacts, is something the CIA desperately wanted to minimize - and I've written very specifically as to why that was and what operations it would have compromised. The official story is bogus, there is good reason to know even Hoover was quite aware of that.

But specifically to this thread, the additional document which mentions Oswald traveling to Mexico, and offers a statement about his occupation, is also consistent and to me supports the idea that he was driven to others at least to the border. In regard to the scenario I favor that makes perfect sense and I can certainly see the FBI, the CIA and the WC eager to obfuscate any evidence Oswald was in involved with others only weeks before the assassination. I guess I'm not sure why we would want to dismiss that out of hand.

I wasn't commenting about Lincoln Mercury and personally I see that as a totally separate incident - you will have to pursue that one with Greg.  As far as the rest, extending this to the shooting, his behavior afterwards and the theater is also well beyond my comments.  I'd also say  Ruth might be a bit conflicted if at one point she says she was prepared to drive him to test for his license and at another says he had trouble turning into a driveway. 

As I said, I find Greg's line of thinking intriguing and it tackles a couple of problems that have long puzzled me - but that's my view and I'll leave it at that.  Hopefully he will be posting further...

Well one obvious answer would be that he personally didn't have a car, nor did he plan a "getaway" after the assassination since he didn't shoot the president.   I don't see that as relevant to the possibility of  his "borrowing" a familiar and available car (one which he had actually been driving while getting lessons from Ruth) while she was away.... 

Lee had been taking driving lessons from Ruth Paine and had actually gone to take his test on one occasion when the office turned out to be closed....if he was to the point of taking his test certainly he could drive.  And the thought of Lee driving somewhere without a license wouldn't shock me....

Steve,  my view is that the imposter was at the Cuban consulate - it may well have been Oswald himself at the Russian embassy.  I know some folks won't like that view as they don't want Oswald in Mexico at all.  I'm open to the fact that he was taken to Mexico or at least the border by others and that what we see going on in Mexico City is a mix.  What I'm absolutely convinced about is that the WC story and timeline for his activities related to Mexico is bogus, based on the FBI investigation which was both misled by CIA tampering in MC via the their Mexican political and police connections as well as by the marching orders the FBI was given to eliminate leads pointing towards Oswald and others ie. conspiracy.  Of course those orders came a bit later than the telephone call with Hoover talking about an imposter and others - he had no idea at that point that the CIA was floundering around already trying to cover their connections to Oswald.

Wow,  just wow!  And I thought I had an obsession for details.  Well done Greg, this thread keeps making more and more sense to me.