Larry Hancock

David makes a good point  that the people in the communications related to the ship were not involved with AMWORLD,  so the question is a good one. Perhaps it was like, "who me", hey I was at my desk, working hard, paying attention to my day job....certainly not off at loose ends trying to figure which of my buddies had just done what we had talked about over drinks or working on my own alibi....see, there are even memos...,

The Rex and Leda had nothing to do with the AMWORLD project, they were mother ships largely involved in supporting Commandos Mambises and by the fall of 63 had become increasingly visible, with even their docking locations  under press scrutiny.  For a reasonably detailed list of what assets were being procured for AMWORLD in terms of when, where and how I'm going to refer  you back to Shadow Warfare.  It was supposed to be a totally deniable, off shore operation and while WAVE did provide some support via training, but AMWORLD activities and staff were independent of WAVE. The obstacles involved in setting up a totally deniable, covert, quasi-military, even modest maritime military operation based entirely off shore were immense, which is why it took some 9-10 months before even the first minor mission was carried out in the spring of 64.  Like the Cuba Project it was another lesson in overreach.

What was  unusual about all these AMWORLD exfiltrations is that in the pursuit of total deniability all the Cuban exiles were being given brand new covers - specifically out of US covers.  As your document notes Joanne was also equipped with a special below deck compartment that could be  used to transport people but also a fairly considerable stash of weapons and special operations type gear.   Certainly all agencies moved into a higher level of security after the assassination and since the Joanne was the only  transport in hand at the moment if it has been thoroughly searched it could have undercut the whole project.

Of course a related questions is that we now know WAVE was ordered to conduct a focused inquiry into Cubans and Cuban exiles who might have been involved in the assassination; not sure we know exactly when that directive was issued but perhaps someone did not want the Joanne to surface during that inquiry - compromising the compartmentalization of AMWORLD.

Well since I got an introduction, Fleites was with the SNFE as far back as inside Cuba, a Menoyo group that for a time later joined in operations with Alpha 66.  But by 1963 Alpha 66 and DRE as well as the other exile groups were under extreme pressure from the FBI, INS and even military intelligence.  Only JURE was in a position to launch attacks and that was from a base in the Caribbean.  All these groups other than DRE were what I call "outsiders" in SWHT.  There were getting no funds, weapons buys dried  up, operations ceased and they had become frustrated and outspoken. 

Only DRE was still in the mix with CIA and competing for support with Artime's new project - but everybody from Alpha 66 to DRE was desperate for money and talking about new attacks on Cuba to support the fund raising. 

At the same time Artime was talking to one and all in the US and Central America claiming US support (that was driving the CIA nuts) for new attacks on Cuba. The reason I go though all the above is that you would pick up rumors for new attacks throughout the Cuban community, some real based in the new Artime project, some being touted for fund raising, especially DRE and JURE and some just wishful thinking. 

The talk about new attacks on Cuba, with or without the US was all over the place and I relate a good deal of it in SWHT.   Given that, the fact that Fleites would make such remarks does not reflect any special insider information (especially since no major US military operation was in the plans, only small scale deniable actions with Artime by 1964 and down the road with the CIA's Commando Mambieses being replaced by US covert military action).

So my short answer should have been, no he was not in a position to know anything special, he was just channeling Cuban exile community gossip.

This would have had nothing to do with AMWORLD, none of these people were involved with it.  When you look at the names this is a pretty classic mix of what I call "outsiders" in SWHT.  All these groups were being highly frustrated by the Kennedy administration orders to shut down Cuban exile operations from the US and were frequently issuing radical statements during 1963, the CRC began it and then effectively folded and individual groups carried on the dialog and claims.

At this time Commandos Mambisis was becoming active in raids against Cuba in missions run by JMWAVE and approved by SAS/Fitzgerald - using the Rex and LEDA motherships.

AMWORLD was just beginning to recruit and bring on personnel and start buying what it was going to need for offshore missions, it did not begin those for another six months.

In regard to Oswald, yes I think he was working his own personal agenda in Mexico.  What might have been going on separately from either lies with CIA sanctioned operations or the Cuban exile contacts with him that we describe in the Red Bird leads.

As far as AMWOLD goes, we have the list of officers and staff personnel involved with it including extended details on purchasing, funding and the logistics activities that were being set up during late 1963, the plans were very specific and involved a maritime base in the Caribbean as well as secret aircraft transit bases in Mexico arranged covertly with the Mexican government.  We know the location of the Caribbean base and the details about setting it up, which did not come about until well into 1963 due to purchasing and logistics issues.

King was certainly head of the Western Division but my reference to "in name only" relates to the Cuba project, otherwise he was in touch with things in 63, as with his involvement in TILT.  However in regard to AMWORLD, a totally offshore, deniable operation he was not really in the loop, that was run by Fitzgerald and a highly compartmentalized group of only a handful  of officers with Hecksher and Jenkins leading. 

As to AMWORLD, it was not at all an invasion plan (unfortunately Lamar got that wrong) but a plan simply to launch maritime raids and reestablish Artime as a military  figure, optimistically available to support the coup efforts of AMTRUNK and AMWHIP.  His boat operations were in no way ready to proceed until late spring 64, a matter of setting up a base and supplying it and putting all the pieces in place covertly.

I don't recall anything going on with AMWORLD that would have involved New Orleans, in 63 or 64.  Actually Johnson did not give up on AMWORLD immediately, he allowed it to run on over the next two years until it died its own death through media exposure, in the end by sinking the wrong freighter off Cuba. That story is in Shadow Warfare too.

First, I would say Oswald was in Mexico City in the hopes of getting a travel visa to enter Cuba, based on a hardship claim for his wife and the argument that he was as a supporter of the Cuban revolution - which is why it took considerable support material with him and why he showed a good bit of it to Duran.  He was well aware of the travel barrier he faced with the Russians, giving he had been making the case primarily for Marina since the first of the year and had been told as recently as July no permission would be granted until  after the birth of their new baby. 

I make no claim to be able to get inside his head but he had success with convincing the Soviets on matters before, while being a pain to them in both entering and leaving Russia; perhaps he thought the Cubans would be easier to wear down or perhaps more sympathetic.  Given his experience with Soviet bureaucracy he also may have thought he might have more luck going to a relatively small Russian diplomatic unit (as he had done before) where they might respond more to a personal appeal - at least getting something he could use to show the Cubans that would get him as far as Cuba, even if no further.  We have taken for granted he was aware of the Cuban rule about transit visas but that was a relatively new thing (after the missile crisis in late 1062) and its possible that their solid stand on that was a surprise to him. From his reading I suspect he would have known that Americans did travel through Mexico to Cuba.

Second, no not at all, my web site is woefully old and after having it hacked twice we have made no further attempt to update it, what I learned about AMWORLD as an operation is largely in Shadow Warfare, but in terms of associated personnel is extended in the Wheaton Leads monograph, the book In Denial, and in Tipping Point. 

Just to be contrarian I don't see Mexico City as important in establishing an image for Oswald - by the time he left New Orleans he had been on radio, the newspapers, in Court and on TV as an activist Castro supporter.  I've not been able to make much of an impression with the fact that we have learned the DRE was heavily propagandizing  that in Miami in late August and September - including letters on Oswald to different exile groups and was even writing to Congress about Oswald as  a perfect example of evil Cuban influence. I'm afraid a lot of Jeff Moreley's great work is not getting really registered - including confirmation from DRE senior officers that they were happy to be leveraging Oswald in propaganda as they is what the CIA was paying them to do. 

We also know that a record was being made that fall for use in propaganda against Castro based on his visibility in NO, it was ready for distribution at the time of the assassination and that INCA had a whole campaign built around it (possibly with Phillips support) and there were other elements of a campaign ready and in progress ( lay this all out in Tipping Point).  Phillips had already prepared one of his private news sources for the story on Oswald as linked to Cuba and Russia - and on the day of the assassination reporters were being referred to him by AP. You did not need Mexico City to produce the newspaper headlines I put on the front of Tipping Point - if anything there had to be a lot of work to quickly shift the media away from the Cuba/Castro headline and  to a lone nut image. 

Its easy to find reason to suspect that Phillips was very much aware of Oswald, was involved in propaganda operations built on the image Oswald had developed for himself in New Orleans and that he lied about Oswald being "not even on the radar" in Mexico City.  Its also pretty obvious that he jumped on the bandwagon with the story that Oswald was paid to kill Kennedy by the Cubans - Phillips was desperately anti-Castro - and tried to promote that immediately after the assassination. He also supported that scenario in multiple books (but that really was a stupid story, way below his standards so its hard not to see it as just a pick up play rather than something well planned and put in place before the fact).

But none of that puts him directly into a plot to kill the president - however its unclear how much he trusted his fellow CIA officers (he was never really part of an old boy HQ CIA clique or and operations clique - he had come on board from being a contract employee) and by the time the HSCA came into play he may very well have figured that he might become disposable (ala Hunt). I have no problem at all seeing Phillips performing preemptive moves or firing a shot across the bow to protect himself. 

Phillips was certainly a person of interest for the HSCA - Fonzi was all over him for various reasons and certainly Phillips felt the pressure.  Generally speaking, when pressured Phillips was aggressive in his response, more than willing to push back.  This article gives you a feel for that, and the AMLASH legacy might have represented a veiled threat to expose a number of things and people just in case things got more tense:

https://www.jfk-online.com/dapcolumbia.html

Good one David, it appears that Phillips may have taken to using insider names to point people towards officers at JMWAVE....not something his fellow officers would miss - or appreciate -  and a very interesting bit way to demonstrate he new names and things that he could toss towards the HSCA if someone sent them in his direction.

I think I'm a bit more suspicious of Phillips in terms of motive.  At that point in time the HSCA was beginning to look seriously at the CIA or at least some of its officers in terms of both involvement with Oswald or perhaps even with a conspiracy.  Since I never really trust Phillips I'm more inclined to think his floating this piece at that time was a) a warning shot over the bow for certain of his fellow CIA officers not to set him up as a sacrifice,  b) to raise a flag that the investigation might not want to go either direction and find something that it should not or c) simply a diversion to confuse the inquiry by giving it an intriguing piece of disinformation with just enough truth to lead it astray until its time ran out (disinformation being a Phillips speciality).  Considering he did nothing with his manuscript (which actually might have sold extremely well given his writing skills) I have to think it was intentional and not any sort of apology for anything he had done.

The Phillips manuscript is more of an outline for a fictional work titled The AMLASH Legacy, its been discussed on the forum many times, the following is a short synopsis Paul Trejo posted on the forum back in 2017; you should be able to locate actual pages of the AMLASH legacy that are available via an internet, I received a paper copy from Malcolm Blunt years ago:;

Paul B.,

Surely you've heard of the fictional work written by CIA agent David Atlee Phillips, which he named, THE AMLASH LEGACY (1988).

This is a work of fiction, and yet in it the main character, who is a CIA agent,  makes a claim about Lee Harvey Oswald, as follows.  The CIA agent character was guiding Lee Harvey Oswald to disguise himself as a Communist and an FPCC officer in New Orleans, in order to infiltrate the Communists.  The purpose of this charade was to position Lee Harvey Oswald in Cuba, in order to assassinate Fidel Castro.

.....As David Atlee Phillips says in this fictional work, this fictional CIA agent even worked with Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City to try to obtain a visa, posing as an FPCC officer, to get into Cuba.  That visa application was still pending when --- as the fiction says -- somebody hijacked Lee Harvey Oswald from this plot to assassinate Fidel Castro into a surprise plot to assassinate JFK.

Through his fictional character, David Atlee Phillips expressed surprise that somebody would hijack Lee Harvey Oswald, but he was reportedly not surprised to learn that JFK was assassinated by exactly the same method that Oswald's team had trained to kill Fidel Castro, namely, a high-powered rifle from a high-building during an open car  motorcade.

......as to the quote from Phillips that was mine, Phillips description was in his book The Carlos Contract he referred to El Indio (Morales) "back alley" operator he had ever known. The badass take was mine..

.....As to Morales issues with Phillip's book, that began with a reporter or author that Phillips referred to Morales (don't recall which) and the incident and protest comes from Morales's personnel file and a protest letter he sent to the CIA asking for action against Phillips for referring a reporter and discussing him as a CIA operations officer.  You would have to get the full file to locate that, I don't know that it is online, I got it the hard way, on paper.

OK Eddy, you certainly have my attention...grin.  Actually this discussion raises the opportunity for some remarks about attribution and context that should be considered first in these discussions. 

First off, Phillips remark to the committee staffer was made casually, he appears to have had a good relationship with Walsh and Phillips was never shy about expressing an opinion.  We don't know the exact context of that remark but we do know that the source, the date and we have a quote to work with.  We also know that during the HSCA period Phillips was working on a manuscript (fictional) which would also have connected an Oswald operation to the CIA.  Its pure speculation, but his remark, the manuscript etc could have been attempts to shift attention from him personally and towards CIA activities going on around Oswald - something there is good reason to suspect that Phillips would have known about.

Given that Phillips actually wrote more books than Night Watch and that he put in the statement that Oswald did take a money to kill JFK from the Cubans in the Consulate (the story he and the MC station pushed days after the assassination) we can probably assume he knew enough about bogus stories in MC and the cover up of a variety of actions against the Cubans and the diplomatic facilities to be aware that some games were in play during the period of Oswald's appearance there - but that he also realized there were things going on he didn't understand, and which were suspicious.

Its also important to remember that Phillips actually called out David Morales (by nick name not true name) as a really badass dirty actions operator (which is interesting since Phillips did not have that much personal contact with Morales and against the fact that Morales was in staff positions, not normally in back alleys - regardless of being a badass), Morales got so upset he went to the CIA and wanted to charge Phillips with violating his privacy (Phillips had even directed a reporter to him) and there was no love lost between the two at that point.  Which might imply that Phillips had some suspicion of Morales - interesting because one of their few operational linkages had to do with a mission to bring Castro's sister out of Cuba on November 22, something which aborted but something that did involve both Morales and Sforza. 

On the second point related to attribution and context, the remark was second hand from Phillip's nephew (who I did communicate with on multiple occasions) so context there is important.  This was a death bed event where Phillips was literally dying and all his brother had to say to him was to ask him about JFK...and he didn't even ask him that outright, as I understand it he asked his brother if David had been in Dallas.  And David refused to answer him.  Personally at that point if I am dying and all my brother has to say is that- well I suspect I would hang up (well perhaps there would be other words but not about Dallas). So from the context  its always been hard for me to see that as a confession.

Hope some of that helps the discussion,  Larry

I suspect Joe will have a response to that Douglas, all I'm going to do is shake my head at the idea of literally accepting and presenting something as true because it cannot be proved to be untrue - and I have already emailed Dick for his comments on source and provenance, no reply yet but that is not unusual given our past exchanges of messages. 

I will also stand by my point that anyone putting forth the document should feel compelled to spell out the issues and challenges so that readers are aware of them.

If a document cannot be shown as to its source, its provenance and has internal inconsistencies and issues (as in this case with the numbering system) as well as being challenged by experts (as with this document by NARA) I surely hope that it is received skeptically in a legal venue.  I can guarantee it would be in terms of its historical validity.  If nothing else it should never be presented without the issues being clearly spelled out.

I don't necessarily see the KGB behind everything, but I have spent a lot of time studying both KGB and FSB disinformation operations and they are very real and very effective as I explore in my own study of political warfare and disinformation tactics ("Creating Chaos").  Generally far more so than equivalent CIA efforts.  The only country with a foreign intelligence service to historically have been nearly as effective as the Russians were the British - possibly because they have an equally long history at such things.

With Dick I consider it very much an outside possibility, but nobody is perfect, especially when somebody comes to you with what you were looking for in the first place (first hand experience on that and the old timers know that in regard to JFK disinformation Penn Jones articles turned him into a target in the Dallas area ), which is why I need to hear what he has to say on it....I'll drop him a note, sometimes he responds, sometimes it takes a week or a month. 

Not to sound like a conspiracy type, but perhaps we should recall that Dick actually had the nerve to go to Moscow, to go to the KGB offices and present a request to review Soviet files on Oswald.  Never being one to trust the KGB or the CIA, one has to wonder if he might have become a target for disinformation - anything to make the CIA look bad would be to their taste.  

If anyone is in direct touch with Dick now it would be good to ask if he has any recollection of who, when and how he received this particular document?

OK, so I could not help myself...the following provides some excellent backstory on issues with the memo and those who were involved with evaluating it...as well as its origins as best that could be determined and even my own comments back in 2004...longer than I had even thought.

http://mccone-rowley.blogspot.com/2005/09/

Douglas, I have no way to retrieve the contacts we had with NARA almost two decades ago,  we all thought the issue had been dealt with at the time - as  you can see in the article Cory posted.

Joe Backus may be able to add some corroboration - as I recall he was independently  involved at the time as well.

I'm afraid I have to leave it at that, its certainly not something I'm going to invest any more time in at this late date and as I've observed, people who want to believe it will, regardless.  Very much  like the Majestic 12 documents in another venue.

I'm afraid I need to remember to keep my remarks in context as respect to time....I've been on the forum here since its inception and before that was active on the CompuServe JFK forum beginning around 1993.  That's probably way to much history and makes my use of "before" a conditional statement, relevant to way too many years....

Douglas, Cory has already posted a link which gives the history of the debunking of the memo:

https://steemit.com/news/@garrickalder/garrick-alder-mccone-rowley-fake-memo-lee-harvey-oswald-published-02-july-2018

As it happens, when the purported memo first came forward I and Stu Wexler and well as others independently approached the National Archives and were advised that the claim that it was a true document, taken from official records was false.  Others on the forum did the same, all of this was discussed as far back as 2006.  I did a quick search on the forum and cannot come up with links to any discussion from that time, someone else may do better on that.

The only place I've seen the document brought up as being real in recent years is within UFO lore relating to the Majestic 12 documents, yet another set of hoaxed material relating to UFOs and a massive government conspiracy (connecting UFOs to JFK's murder).

Of course anyone wanting to believe the memo is free to do so....  

The point

This document has been debunked and deconstructed so many times its really frustrating to see it keep reappearing.  I expectJoe B will recall the furor it initially created and the work at the National Archives which showed it to be a fake.  The source was never identified but the willingness of so many people to accept it without provenance speaks volumes about the risk of jumping on the bandwagon when something shows up that you just wanted to see...

Well generally David's normal recollection of all things JFK related, and particularly things about Dallas, has been generally far better than mine so I doubt I would diagnose a memory problem...grin.

However I would say the ins and outs of the SGA are enough to befuddle most people and I continually have to revisit my own work to keep straight how things changed with it over the course of even a couple of years.  First you had the SGA (Special Group, Cuba policy, augmented with the participation and direction of RFK) replaced by the SG (with RFK moving his attention to a new group formed under JFK's direction) and having Cuba strategic responsibility (as Mongoose and Task Force W disbanded) - all at the beginning of 1963. 

Then you had that new high level coordinating group (Cuba Coordinating Committee) now meeting with RFK and RFK not attending SG meetings but rather leaving that, after a few months, to Desmond Fitzgerald who essentially replaced the function of William Harvey and Task Force W with the Special Affairs staff) actually being led by the State Department as a multi-agency group. And you have Fitzgerald sharing some operational details with SG, some with the Oversight Committee and some not at all with RFK and JFK (like Tilt).

........but with nobody in actual Cuban operations at WAVE paying much attention to the new Cuba Coordinating Committee, its plans but instead panning everything that the Cuban Operations Group approved, like AMWORLD.

Anyway, if David does not remember all this I would say its just symptomatic of the chaos in Cuban affairs at the time, I have the same problem so I can assure him its not fatal but just requires frequent recourse to notes and a calendar and headache medication.