Larry Hancock

A worthwhile question Steve, don't know off the top of my head.  However the American Embassy in Havana was under intense pressure and facing expulsion in 1960.  Any direct contacts by Veciana would be very dangerous.  We do know that earlier when Sturgis offered a Castro assassination plot to the CIA it was channeled though through the Embassy's military attache - none other than David Morales.

Check SWHT 2010 p. 137 for the 1960 Veciana offer memo (the contact crypt is Olien), there is a CIA document on the offer - see RIF 104-10315-10038  Havana to JM/WAVE (I'd forgotten all about that document..sigh).

My thought is that in 1960 Veciana would have to relay such an offer through someone that was in contact with his revolutionary group inside Cuba, and we do know from both Phillip's own book as well as CIA documents that he was indeed in contact with revolutionary groups and coming across talk of killing Castro. That is why I have thought up to this point that the offer did come through Phillips. Another deep cover American asset that could have passed on such talk was Tony Sforza. 

The raids of spring 1963 were being done by Commandos L, which did include members of Alpha 66.  Members of Alpha 66 also were recruited and participated in the TILT mission.  Alpha 66 was still active as an organization in 1963 but the Cuba raids were being most visibly done by Commandos L and other new groups. By spring 63 CIA was pushing back at the Special Group level against any involvement with Alpha 66 (which had been proposed by Army members of the group).  So as a group its problematic, however many members of Alpha 66 joined and worked with other groups; same for members of DRE who belonged to Alpha 66 or MRR etc. 

I guess my best answer is that by 63 things had fragmented a good deal, there were individuals on the outside (not backed by the Kennedy Administration) working with different groups and groups on the inside (Artime, Quintero/AM/WORLD) who were sanctioned and heavily supported financially.  I'd say that by 1963 individual names and what those individuals were doing and who trusted who become more important than groups. And more important in regards to what happened in Dallas.

Yeah, I know that's probably not a big help...sorry...

I have the same problem Ron, but on one hand there is no evidence of a truly close personal working relationship between Phillips and the old school CIA cadre like Helms, Dulles at all...even Hunt.  The guys from the earliest days had some band of brothers types of relationships,  Harvey and Angleton being an example, but Phillips started out as a contract guy and had none of that sort of history.  I first began to suspect he had his own agendas when I found a disciplinary memo in his file for something really strange in regard to a sting involving the Russians in MC and uranium sales. Apparently that was unauthorized. He also had his own special history with going to private companies involved in pre-Castro Cuba and raising major amounts of money, we see that in the Tejuana III boat project.  He appears to have started that and then gotten approval.  Also there is no doubt he had his own private PR network, I discuss that in SWHT. 

As to his promotion, actually that was several years later after serving in various roles in Latin America including COS in Brazil and then being sent into the Chile project, where a variety of apparently rogue activities occurred that the CIA had to later work to keep out of the investigations.  Now whether those involed "head nods" or whether Phillips and company (including Tony Sforza) just used their own initiative, I don't now.  I did explore the cover-up in Shadow Warfare though, which apparently resulted in Sforza's early retirement.

I wish I could answer the question for sure, but there are signs that he was quite willing to go his own way at times, maybe somebody was giving him a vest pocket approval, maybe not.  And it would have been different people at different times.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely sure people like Angleton and Harvey operated as part of the old school and had a lot more discretionary room, partially because both were involved in CI and CI/SIG which was highly compartmentalized and autonomous within Agency operations.

Michael,  here would be my thought on what to look for...given documents we have had and what Newman introduced at the Lancer conference last fall.

1) Anything that shows us who or even what section of the CIA station in Havana that Veciana contacted about assassinating Castro in 1960. That would answer one huge question. 

2) The same for who at CIA he contacted in 1962. David's document confirms that those contacts were made so we know we are hunting for something real and that does confirm that Veciana was approaching the CIA - and being rejected.  So any contact document on his approaches and subsequent rejection are key.

3) Anything that shows an effort by CIA to monitor Alpha 66, including sources (whether they be Army sources or CIA sources).  We know that the administration was upset and embarrassed by the ongoing raids,  we know that Alpha was actually more successful on its missions than JM/WAVE.  The question is how much did CIA HQ know about the missions as compared to JM/WAVE and was somebody playing games.  In SWHT I present info that JM/WAVE had advance knowledge of the missions,  we should see if they provided that to HQ in their reports or somebody was sandbagging HQ and/or the SGA with a local agenda. 

In reference to that, look for any reports going to J.C. King.  We know that JM/WAVE and King approved the TILT mission without informing the SGA and RFK.  Up to now that has been an exception, question is was it also happening with Alpha 66.

David, that is a very interesting CIA summary document on Veciana - totally new to me.  It would seem to substantiate that Veciana contacted the CIA inside Cuba (and if not Phillips, then who?).  And then contacted them again after he came out, in 62.  Being of a suspicious nature, I wonder if that means he contacted Phillips inside Cuba, was officially rejected then contacted Phillips again in 62 and was officially rejected while Phillips decided to take matters in his own hands and encourage him to form Alpha 66? 

The document certainly suggests CIA officially rejected working with him, repeatedly.  It also makes it clear that Veciana had assassination on his mind..and we know he did since he was part of an abortive plot just before he made it out of Cuba.

Indeed it does Ron,  and Veciana is definitely the source for saying that Bishop was a force behind helping organize, fund  and promote Alpha 66.  If true, the questions are:  a) Was Bishop actually Phillips and if not who was he?  b) If it was Phillips was he making the Veciana contacts on his own with his own agenda or acting covertly for the CIA?   There has been no record of the latter so the speculation was that Phillips might have been going rogue as early as the creation of Alpha 66, which was certainly being encouraged towards Russian attack missions that the JFK crack down would have opposed.  Indeed Veciana remarks that Bishop wanted to put JFK's back to the wall and force action against Castro via the attacks.

David, thanks, that could be very helpful...I know Harvey and the CIA officially was complaining about the Alpha 66 attacks - which would be a HQ attitude.  On the other hand JM/WAVE was aware of their plans (as apparently was the Army) and was doing noting to stop them.  In one memo Morales even speculates how interesting it might be if Alpha 66 was being manipulated without their knowledge. 

I've always wanted to tie this down one way or the other and of course in doing so deal with all the open questions about Veciana and Phillips as either an official - highly covert - relationship or a rogue act on Phillips part.

These documents round out the earlier picture we had, primarily again from Army Intelligence.  Army Intel made early contact with Viciana, actually designating him as an informant, with the primary interest of obtaining info on Russian weapons and Russian military activities in Cuba form Alpha 66 missions.  The maintained contact with Alpha 66 through late 61 and 62 and reported this to the CIA...one of the key questions on this is who they reported it to at CIA. Phillips was moving on after the Cuba project to Mexico City so one question is whether the reporting would have officially gone to him (of course in following all things Cuban Phillips would have known about Veciana and Alpha 66, the question is how much through official reports).  Chronology of his new assignment vs. these reports is very important.

We also know that JM/WAVE itself had a source reporting from inside on Alpha 66 during 1962 and were aware of their missions but did nothing to interdict them (contrary to Kennedy Admin policy).  We know that from reports of Victor Hernandez and actual remarks from David Morales in JMWAVE documents.

And we have documents showing that in the spring of 1963, the military side of the SGA proposed using Alpha 66 for more "bang and boom" against Cuba and the CIA recommended against it, based on the opinion that it would be virtually impossible to control them.

Aside from all this, we have the Veciana/Bishop story that suggest Phillips was helping Alpha 66 organize, getting them PR and encouraging them to attack Russian targets. The notes about PR in the first document David posted are interested in that regard...as is the fact that there were "sources" were providing Army intel info on Alpha 66 missions....the question is who those sources are?  At first it read as if it might be Veciana himself but a closer read suggests otherwise.

So....David, your remark was that CIA was working directly with Veciana or Alpha 66 first and then passed him on to the Army....I.m missing that but I'd love to see a direct CIA/informant/asset relationship to him in 61/62 and what office that would have been through.  If its in these new documents help me see that because its a point that really needs to be cleared up, especially with the work Newman is currently doing on Veciana. 

Steve,  I'm getting a bit lost in all these threads, sorry...I'll be moving offline to pursue the things David brought up so I'll leave you all to wrestle with the letter mystery, good luck.

Not having any luck downloading those black vault files David, how big are they?   I get messages saying that server is going down during the downloads.

Well we do know that Jenkins did organize training for Artime and certain of his group beginning in 1963, we know that David Morales was involved in the training.  I don't think we knew the names of the actual trainers themselves. The context of the reference you found may also be important as we know that Morales and Robertson were also involved in preparing training materials on special ops and assassination all the way back to Guatemala and that they used a variety of sources for those materials.  Anyway, looks like you have indeed dragged me back in, hope my memory is up to it.

"Larry, here are 4 of the Cubans that were in the Congo. Notice Ricardo Morales. It's from him that Otero learned about some of the participants and told Fonzi. Otero and Morales were later members of Coru along with Tony Izquierdo whom some believe was the spotter in the DalTex building. After Artime's group was dissolved in '65 Izquierdo and Slivano Poso were sent to Panama by Carl Jenkins. Poso was later shot and killed in Panama by a "jealous husband."  !"

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/docid-32307661.pdf

Excellent work David, that could be a real game changer!!   That could literally be the link we have needed for so long, which pulls it virtually all together.  First its an an awesome catch and second - how in the world did you find something that could actually drag me back into all this again...I thought I was safe...

Very interesting Steve, my guess is that the date is right.....these types of individuals whether they be military like Hoare, Skorzeny, or for that matter people like Werbell were constantly approaching anyone they could think of that would give them connections to the CIA or the services or even the State Department.  Not unlike today/s infamous private military contractors both large and small.  Its all about networking, who knows you, who remembers  you when a job or bid is on the table (open or non contractual).  They always have to be marketing their services and selling their expertise...or offering it for free as an opening.  Offering information, offering contacts, just staying on the radar...sort of like the music and entertainment industries in NYC and LA and London....same necessity, just lots more weapons and ultimately bloodshed (literally rather than figuratively).

I haven't read far enough to have any comments about Skorzeney in the Congo but the mercenary who certainly did have a huge impact on the military situation there by 63/64 and whose forces largely retook territories for the central government was a South African named Mike Hoare.  I write about his operations in the Congo fairly extensively in Shadow Warfare and compare them to the activities of Robertson's Cuban exiles and the Cuban Air Group.  The Cuban exile air group made a big difference in the fighting but it was Hoare's mercenaries who operated extensively on the ground - and against the Cuban forces that were infiltrated in the East (led by Che Guevara) along with a CIA presence in the lake region.  A bit on Hoare at the link below:

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/people_hoare.html

Paul, as Jim says you are thinking of a very different Robert Morrow (someone I do know and an extremely outgoing proponent of the Johnson murdered JFK idea).  The fellow being referenced in Ganis's book was an engineer who became involved with a Cuban exile political figure (Mario Kohley) who had approached the State Department and was active in expatriate Cuban political activities in Miami in the early sixties.  Morrow actually took on a project for Kohley, building the equipment needed for  counterfeiting currency with the intent to destabilize the Cuban economy. And Morrow was charged and convicted of the counterfeiting. The story continues from there but Morrow's version of Cuban covert operations is ...well lets just say not historically correct....but because he was a prolific and sensational writer on the subject and on the JFK assassination he is cited as a source for a great many things about the CIA and Cuba. 

Sure Paul, its Robert Morrow.  The reason I didn't name him is that giving the name means I should step up and explain why I found him unreliable and that is very long story I'm not prepared to revisit here - which leaves it as strictly my opinion,.   I started with First Hand Knowledge and years later had finished all his other books and done a lot of supplemental research, at which point I realized how much of his personal fiction was in First Hand Knowledge. 

I also became friends with a long time researcher who had become close to Morrow for many years. As I understand it Morrow  was convinced of a JFK conspiracy but didn't have the research to back it up and a good bit of what he wrote was simply to stimulate interest in tracking down the real conspiracy (worked on me) while privately admitting that he was making up a lot of his own content. 

The CIA itself actually investigated (internally) his claims given how dramatic they were and that they were stated as fact - turns out there is a good bit of documentation on his true activities in the early 1960's, based in contemporary documents of the time which differ dramatically from what is in his books.

Very interesting Jim, and very consistent.....must have been a surprise seeing Robertson show up with his Cuban exile force in the Congo.  Actually there are some interesting photos of them there, actually published in an Army study of the hostage rescue operation - Dragon Rouge. 
 

I'm about a third of the way through a detailed study of the book and certainly am interested.  I'll hold off on a full commentary because its going to take a bit to digest - one thing that makes a book like this exceptionally difficult is the new style of citation where everything at the end is simply cited as to book page number.  You really have no easy idea of exactly which point or even sentence is referenced to what source.  If your publisher insisted on this there are things you can do, like actually mentioning books or authors within the copy for key points, but you really have to work at it. 

So far I've run into one source that he does use that I have spent a huge amount of time on myself - since it was the first book that really started my own research - and unfortunately in the end found it to be highly unreliable.  I hate that sort of thing. It has to do with a rather important CIA contact which he ties to Skorzeny. 

At this point - after skimming all the book and now being into a detailed reading  I agree with Paul on his assessment in regard to the incomplete JFK assassination tie. I am finding the early material in the book to be most interesting in the manner that Skorzeny was of interest first to the US Army and then to the OPC and finally the CIA as part of the larger effort to put together an anti-Communist counter to what was anticipated as an imminent Soviet move west in the years right after WWII.

I would note that we now actually have records showing that certain types of CIA officers may have different alieas over the years, depending on their tasking and especially where they serve at a given time.  We know of several for David Phillips and for David Morales as examples.  Each alias had a back stop, some minimal some much better developed.  Beyond that each had multiple pseudos for document purposes depending on individual assignments. And of course some programs and projects had multiple crypts associated with individuals...it seems much more common to find crypts assigned to projects. Which may mean that multiple individuals over time could be working  under the same crypt, if nothing else for payroll and budgeting purposes.

Since this is about the Congo it might be worthwhile pointing out that within 3 months of the JFK assassination Rip Robertson had shipped out to the Congo, early 1964.   He assisted with recruiting a joint ground and air group of Cuban exiles and personally led the ground unit on operations in the Congo.  Although totally anecdotal,  multiple sources reported his - and the exiles - openly talking about the JFK assassination with Robertson himself taking bows.  Strictly talk but what is absolutely certain is that he moved out of Cuban operations and off to the Congo almost immediately after the assassination and was out of the country pretty much from that point on.

I'm reading the book now; the most immediate problem is that the actual "Skorzeny Papers" (which appear to be business records and personal correspondence)  themselves are not released nor in the public domain and while cited frequently in the book they are cited simply as that and have to be taken as an article of faith....the promise is that they will be made available at some future date ....hopefully so but at the moment the only sections which appear to be from sources that can be checked are from open source genealogy searches.

I'm glad it helped Ron - sorry about the NEXUS index; NEXUS was originally written more as a large reseach monograph than as a book and in the process of publishing it the index was something that just didn't get done. What did happen is that most of the research that had gone into NEXUS got carried into a much larger book, Shadow Warfare, which traces the longer term careers of most of the NEXUS characters that I found to be of the most serious interest on through some two decades beyond the JFK assassination - and it does have a serious index.

If I were to do NEXUS again, I would focus in on a certain set of names and those would be individuals who were either trained or worked during 61-63 with Jenkins and Quintero, the sources for the assassination stories which were heard and related by Gene Wheaton. Those names would include the exiles that were trusted enough internally by people like Morales to move on beyond the Bay of Pigs fiasco and become much longer term CIA assets - and even employees. Those are the names  you find in Shadow Warfare and the go on to Vietnam and on through Latin America for years. These were folks who proved themselves in anti-Castro operations (even the ones that failed), people competent enough and "trusted" enough to be called on in 1963.  Sanjenis would never have made that cut.

Indeed, I would have problems with the photo as I do with other elements of the book it appeared in, some very good information in it but in other places a real stretch.  One thing that is clear about Sanjenis and the boat mission that he led to provide a diversion for the BOP fiasco is that it was a total failure - and that happened because of his personal timidity.  There are lots of rumors about that mission, but one thing is sure and that's the fact that he refused to commit his force and that he was not going to be trusted within Agency operations after that.  Reportedly he and certain of his exile supporters went on to create a drug connected, violent civilian version of OP40, ostensibly to raise money to fight Castro but in reality just to make money.

And I surely do agree with Jim in regard to Ray and the hatred which many CIA officers had for him - by 1963 Hecksher actually ordered Artime's AM/WORLD group to fire on Ray's people if they encountered them on operations into Cuba. The virulent anti communist CIA types considered a socialist like Ray little different from a pure bred Moscow type commie. Along those lines I've felt for a long time that the visit to Odio was no fluke and he had to do with her connection to Ray. 

Wish I could help you Ron,  it is known that following the Bay of Pigs fiasco some of the group's members became part of the new Cuban Intelligence Group formed at JM/WAVE, over time some of them and others of the original group went their own ways and some became involved directly in or on the periphery of drug smuggling - that continued on through the Contra era.  Felix Guiterrez is a name that comes up with some of those activities, with drug shipments into the west coast, etc.  However I don't have anything to concretely prove its the same person, folks have speculated on that and its certainly a possibility but I've seen nothing concrete to absolutely prove its the same individual.

Paul, from memory - and Newman would be the proper source on this - that crypt was used for payments out of a variety of offices and over a number of years.  I do recall an LA office use, a couple of uses in Europe and of course its use to pay off Roselli but that was out of HQ not a station or field office. I know of no non-CIA info on Mankel.  Apparently John has more info on the crypt but he is immersed in his books right now and I've not been able to break through to him...

And yes, there were a couple of layers of subterfuge as you say, you always have to deal with who is assigned a crypt and in some instances they may be reused over time, then you have the actual security files on the individual which have to have a true name somewhere as to the personnel files. And then you have the operational crypts, normally made up for specific projects.  But when people like Harvey and Angleton get really sneaky they hide new projects within old ones and under other covers...like putting ZR/RIFLE under Staff D.  Harvey's notes even comment that the people that really know how to hide things are Angleton and the Office of Security.

Wish I could be of more help, I'll continue trying to find out more information from Newman.

Other documents suggest that Roselli actually used the QJ/WIN crypt/account to pay Roselli...up to the point where Roselli was taken out of the Castro assassination project in 1963.  The crypt appears to have been used for multiple people over time, just one more layer of cover, more in terms of accounting than payment than operational in the case of Roselli.  And operationally it was hidden under ZR/RIFLE